Mutations: No Help For Progressive Evolution

My bad. I didn't mean to interfere with your attempts to spread your retarded friends gospel around.

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"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire

more like irrefutable facts

Facts:

Researched mutation ratios (bad/good) vary from 1000 to 1 to 1 million to 1 - Gerrish and Lenski 1998 The actual rate of beneficial mutations is so small as to be nearly impossible to measure - (Bataillon 2000, Elena et al. 1998)

Thus mutations cannot result in a net gain of information! Geneticist John Sanford wrote, "Everything about the true distribution of mutations argues against their possible role in forward evolution....mutations appear to be overwhelmingly deleterious, and even when one may be classified as beneficial in some specific sense, it is still usually part of an over-all breakdown and erosion of information"

Information cannot be added to any system from the mere properties of the system itself. It must come from without. This is part of algorithmic information theory. Natural selection is of little help since "it must be able to simultaneously select against extremely large numbers of nearly-neutral nucleotide mutations, in order to prevent genomic degeneration."

Leonard Brillouin in his work on information theory states, "A machine does not create any new information, but it performs a very valuable transformation of known information".

Nobel laureate Peter Medawar said, "No process of logical reasoning - can enlarge the information content of the axioms and premises or observation statements from which it proceeds." And from this he deduced that a law of conservation of information exists!

Godel also believed the same holds with biological information. Moreover Chaitin has established that you cannot prove that a specific sequence of numbers has a complexity greater than the program required to generate it.

Consequence? "In sequences that carry semantic information the information is clearly coded irreducibly in the sense that it is not further compressible. Therefore there do not exist any algorithms that generate meaningful sequences where those algorithms are shorter than the sequences they generate." - Bern-Olaf Kuppers.

Chance and necessity can transmit complex specified information but they can't generate it.

So Darwinists are in fact arguing for an information-centric, biological equivalent of a perpetual motion machine!

Another point that has been completely ignored in this conversation is that any beneficial mutation has to become fixed in a population before it is of any evolutionary use. The question here then becomes, how and how long does it take for a mutation to become fixed in a population? Both the numerous deleterious ones and the very rare beneficial ones?

According to Patterson (1999), an entirely recessive beneficial mutation, even if it could increase fitness by as much as 1%, would require at least 100,000 generations to become fixed.

Genetic drift tends to eliminate these from the population - it does not help! Population geneticists think that, apart from effective selection, in a population of 10000, anew mutant has only 1 chance in 20,000 (total # of non-mutant nucleotides present) of NOT being lost via drift!

According to geneticist John Sanford, any mildly beneficial mutation with half of 1% fitness increase, has 99 chances in 100 of being lost. In other words a mildly beneficial mutation has to occur about 100 times before it is likely to become fixed.

Sanford goes on to state that on average, "we would have to wait 120,000 x 100 = 12 million years to stabilize one beneficial mutation in building our hypothetical new gene. So, in the time since we supposedly evolved from chimp-like creatures (6 million years), there would not be enough time to realistically expect our first desired mutation - the one destined for fixation." (Genetic Entropy, 2005)

bhwahahahaahahahhahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahh aahha........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.......hahahaha hahahahahhahahaha

Does god like bold letters or something. Or is that so you can reach out to the blind retards?

__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire

It seems for those with interest, evolution needs to head for extinction. I appreciate that. Evolution may have been poorly described by the original author; your source tries to prove this.

In most cases, esepcially for complex life, evolution leads to pregressive decay of the genome and, eventually, extinction. Speciation/adaptation/selection/genetic drift is one way ride, there is no going back.

You may be describing the life of a particular gene code. Maybe gene codes have an expiration date. And why not? We humans do too. With it dying, that may be the chief reason why evolution does exist. Especially if the death of a gene is needed to insure a small mutation change; which appear minute and difficult to measure. Moreover, the needed time of extraordinary amount of years to see that we came from whatever of yesterday to what-we-are today.

no....the genome of any organism is subject the same accumulation of deleterious mutations over time, with a supposed "beneficial" mutation (which still contributes to an overall loss of information) in exceedingly rare occurences

we've been studying mutations for over 100 years now, thousands and thousands of them have been observed and assessed...this is TRUE, empirical science...not fantasy land magical changes which exist only in the minds of hopelessly indoctrinated atheists and agnostics...progressive evolution was and continues to be the ultimate smoke and mirrors, glass fortress delusion miscalled "science" ever propagated in history

I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that for any new changes, for beneifit or not, the old information dies. That pretty much what you are describing.

it doesn't "die", the genome is just slowly and steadily corrupted, and the evidence of that is more and more genetic disorders crop up...this is why pure bred dogs have so many health issues...after generations of selective breeding, most of these breeds have a number of genetic errors....it's a one way ride, they do not become "more fit" over time, just the opposite

again, why isn't this obvious?

Shows how much you know.

__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire

I just got a $150 book on suspension....does that count as research or copy & paste???

that's not true research, you're still relying on someone else to tell you what's right...in reality, 99.999999% of all information/knowledge is just transferred, there is precious little that is truly "new", so the "copy and paste " rebuke is a red herring - darwinists do the exact same thing (witness captain google)

the real issue is wisdom: right application of right knowledge

you do realize that by saying that you have now stated that all religious ideals are no more then copy and paste since it isn't a science that can be studied and is only quoted out of a small assembly of books.....just thought I would point that out! At least I can take the math out of that book and apply it to any suspension dynamics that I might want to understand.....I really enjoy math it is the language of the universe!

the scriptures originate from God, not human beings, although select men physically wrote it down

scientific discoveries can be lost...it's been postulated that several ancient cultures were very close to discovering electricity...we aren't any smarter in 2009, I think there are alot more stupid people, actually, we just have 7 BILLION humans running around, and alot more of them in a lab, not out gathering food

great, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue at hand...unless you were taught, you would not understand anything, and the suspension on your car was purchased from a manufacturer who does their own R&D