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04-19-2009, 07:57 PM
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We're in Bat Country
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Posts: 2,994
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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media]
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04-19-2009, 07:59 PM
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Done.
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 4,423
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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c[/media]
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04-19-2009, 10:12 PM
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wotnartd
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,471
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mutants?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Tueundpyk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Tueundpyk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Tueundpyk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Tueundpyk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Tueundpyk[/media]
__________________
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04-20-2009, 10:40 AM
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Trashin Church Ladies
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 1,032
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OMG its Shiva!
__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
I'd swing a baseball bat across your skull if we ever met, more than likely
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04-20-2009, 12:16 PM
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150 infraction points results in a permanent ban... see ya
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In my FD
Posts: 8,447
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good example of a "beneficial mutation" 
it's a world of many fools..... professing to be wise |
04-20-2009, 12:26 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
the scriptures originate from God, not human beings, although select men physically wrote it down
to bad god stopped talking to men 2000 years ago.....[/b]
scientific discoveries can be lost...it's been postulated that several ancient cultures were very close to discovering electricity...we aren't any smarter in 2009, I think there are alot more stupid people, actually, we just have 7 BILLION humans running around, and alot more of them in a lab, not out gathering food
If so much is lost and people are no smarter then they were in the dark ages why are we now talking over the interweb? Being able to read in the past was something that not a lot of people could do and education was limited the privileged, so to say that the people were just as intelligent as they are today would be wrong.....they may have had the ability to become as smart as today’s average person but they didn't have a system that allowed them to achieve this.
great, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue at hand...unless you were taught, you would not understand anything, and the suspension on your car was purchased from a manufacturer who does their own R&D
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I guess you have never tuned a car, it is a process of trial and error, and there is a reason that you are able to buy different dampeners, springs, anti-roll bars and so on. Depending on you're application and desired outcome you set a car up to perform as you wish that is R&D.
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04-20-2009, 12:39 PM
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Trashin Church Ladies
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
good example of a "beneficial mutation"
it's a world of many fools..... professing to be wise |
You know all those times you wished you had an extra hand. 
__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
I'd swing a baseball bat across your skull if we ever met, more than likely
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04-20-2009, 12:45 PM
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150 infraction points results in a permanent ban... see ya
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In my FD
Posts: 8,447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svaillan
to bad god stopped talking to men 2000 years ago.....
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God has spoken through His Word. The next event will be judgment.
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If so much is lost and people are no smarter then they were in the dark ages why are we now talking over the interweb? Being able to read in the past was something that not a lot of people could do and education was limited the privileged, so to say that the people were just as intelligent as they are today would be wrong
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The dark ages are a poor example because the Catholic system enslaved so many people, I'm referring to the great ancient civilizations of the past, before Christ
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I guess you have never tuned a car, it is a process of trial and error, and there is a reason that you are able to buy different dampeners, springs, anti-roll bars and so on. Depending on you're application and desired outcome you set a car up to perform as you wish that is R&D.
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The point is, the hardware (or software) itself is designed and built for you by someone else
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04-20-2009, 01:32 PM
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Trashin Church Ladies
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
it's a world of many fools.....professing to be wise
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That must be the name of your new forums you joined.
__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
I'd swing a baseball bat across your skull if we ever met, more than likely
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04-20-2009, 01:44 PM
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150 infraction points results in a permanent ban... see ya
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In my FD
Posts: 8,447
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hit the road, troll
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04-20-2009, 03:15 PM
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Trashin Church Ladies
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 1,032
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Here you go. I threw your little pile of garbage up on another site with people who actually know what they are talking about.
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Researched mutation ratios (bad/good) vary from 1000 to 1 to 1 million to 1 - Gerrish and Lenski 1998 The actual rate of beneficial mutations is so small as to be nearly impossible to measure - (Bataillon 2000, Elena et al. 1998)
Thus mutations cannot result in a net gain of information!
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Information alert! There are two common technical definitions of information and neither of them has anything to do with how beneficial a mutation is. (Shannon information is the ammount by which an original string remains during some transmission process. All mutations reduce that. Komolgorov information is the smallest number that can be used to describe a system. All mutations increase that.)
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Geneticist John Sanford wrote, "Everything about the true distribution of mutations argues against their possible role in forward evolution....mutations appear to be overwhelmingly deleterious, and even when one may be classified as beneficial in some specific sense, it is still usually part of an over-all breakdown and erosion of information"
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What do you expect an ID advocate to write?
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Information cannot be added to any system from the mere properties of the system itself.
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This is incorrect. As noted above, Komolgorov information is added by mutations.
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This is part of algorithmic information theory.
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Does this mathematical theory apply here? According to euclidean geometry general relativity is false (or rather: euclidean geometry does not apply).
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Natural selection is of little help since "it must be able to simultaneously select against extremely large numbers of nearly-neutral nucleotide mutations, in order to prevent genomic degeneration."
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Bullshit. First of all, near-neutral substitutions are called nearly neutral, because they have so small effects on fitness that selection plays next to no role. Now of course when a synonymous 3rd base substitution occurs Shannon information is lost. But that constitutes no argument against evolution (just against measuring evolutions capacity to maintain Shannon information. Hint here: Shannon information is the highest, when there is no change. The more change there is the more Shannon information is lost. So to conclude that evolution is in trouble, because Shannon information is lost is sort of missing the point).
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Leonard Brillouin in his work on information theory states, "A machine does not create any new information, but it performs a very valuable transformation of known information".
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True only, when you disregard friction.
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Nobel laureate Peter Medawar said, "No process of logical reasoning - can enlarge the information content of the axioms and premises or observation statements from which it proceeds."
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Correct. But that has little to do with evolution.
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Moreover Chaitin has established that you cannot prove that a specific sequence of numbers has a complexity greater than the program required to generate it.
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Correct, if that program is deterministic (notable here we are talking Komolgorov information).
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Consequence? "In sequences that carry semantic information the information is clearly coded irreducibly in the sense that it is not further compressible. Therefore there do not exist any algorithms that generate meaningful sequences where those algorithms are shorter than the sequences they generate." - Bern-Olaf Kuppers.
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Hey, itīs the mathematically correct definition of irreducibly complex in the Komolgorov sense. Not to be confused with IC in the sense of Behe.
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Chance and necessity can transmit complex specified information but they can't generate it.
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Now hereīs Dembskis term "complex specified information" which simply isnīt defined. Moreover, chance is the key point. Any random sequence is irreducibly complex in the mathematical sense above (to give a simple explanation for the incompressibility consider coin tosses. Heads is 1 and tails is 0. Record 1000 tosses. Now no matter how they turn out, these 1000 1s and 0s will not tell you how the 1001st toss will turn out. So to generate that sequence you need to write down the 1001 tosses).
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Another point that has been completely ignored in this conversation is that any beneficial mutation has to become fixed in a population before it is of any evolutionary use.
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Maybe that is because the point makes no sense at all.
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The question here then becomes, how and how long does it take for a mutation to become fixed in a population? Both the numerous deleterious ones and the very rare beneficial ones?
According to Patterson (1999), an entirely recessive beneficial mutation, even if it could increase fitness by as much as 1%, would require at least 100,000 generations to become fixed.
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Um, population size dependent.
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Genetic drift tends to eliminate these from the population - it does not help!
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Drift by its very nature is indifferent about the beneficial nature of mutations. It does tend to eliminate the ones that newly arise and most of them are, as your creationist source point out harmful. So, it actually does help somewhat.
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Population geneticists think that, apart from effective selection, in a population of 10000, anew mutant has only 1 chance in 20,000 (total # of non-mutant nucleotides present) of NOT being lost via drift!
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Correct.
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According to geneticist John Sanford, any mildly beneficial mutation with half of 1% fitness increase, has 99 chances in 100 of being lost.
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Population size dependent!
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In other words a mildly beneficial mutation has to occur about 100 times before it is likely to become fixed.
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What is "likely" here. Taking the 1% chance to be fixed, itīs about 75% for 100 trials.
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Sanford goes on to state that on average, "we would have to wait 120,000 x 100 = 12 million years to stabilize one beneficial mutation in building our hypothetical new gene. So, in the time since we supposedly evolved from chimp-like creatures (6 million years), there would not be enough time to realistically expect our first desired mutation - the one destined for fixation." (Genetic Entropy, 2005)
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Ignoring of course that weīve got shitloads of nucleotides, all of which mutate and also big populations (so mutations have an increased probability of arising per generation). For purely neutral substitutions the population size cancels out and the mean rate of fxixation is the mutation rate ĩ. Given the size of our genome about 80 Loci are fixed each generation.[/quote]
__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
I'd swing a baseball bat across your skull if we ever met, more than likely
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04-20-2009, 03:21 PM
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150 infraction points results in a permanent ban... see ya
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In my FD
Posts: 8,447
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here's the key point, sod: what has recorded history shown us so far? speciation and selection inevitably leads to decreased overall fitness and, in many cases, extinction...that is IRREFUTABLE
sure, you can cite nebulous/fringe cases in microbiology of a "positive" mutations, but the overall trend is consistent, and more time is not the solution (just the opposite, since the "train" is headed in the wrong direction)
who is really practicing bad science here? clearly, it's the darwinists...
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04-20-2009, 03:44 PM
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Straight Gangster
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1revnrex
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media]
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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXNTq0k9NEk[/media][media]
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackyardSog
To bad you can't use the "standing in a hole" excuse for that thing, considering it's never seen one.
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04-20-2009, 04:45 PM
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Trashin Church Ladies
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
here's the key point, sod: what has recorded history shown us so far? speciation and selection inevitably leads to decreased overall fitness and, in many cases, extinction...that is IRREFUTABLE
sure, you can cite nebulous/fringe cases in microbiology of a "positive" mutations, but the overall trend is consistent, and more time is not the solution (just the opposite, since the "train" is headed in the wrong direction)
who is really practicing bad science here? clearly, it's the darwinists...
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So so do you think the DNA repair mechanisms in living cells (that prevent critical sections of DNA from suffering the same rate of error that affect most of the rest) can only work by supernatural means, and if so, why?
__________________
"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." -Voltaire
Quote:
Originally Posted by YZF-R1
I'd swing a baseball bat across your skull if we ever met, more than likely
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04-20-2009, 04:48 PM
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150 infraction points results in a permanent ban... see ya
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In my FD
Posts: 8,447
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No. Although I do believe the micro machinery of the cell was supernaturally designed.
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