It's a big gamble for GOD to place his bet on the 3rd rock from the sun.

I don't even want to hear the bible bullshit expert advice on this topic since during the time of the new and old testiclement, the word planets didn't even exist in their grammer.

Remember, this was a time where they though that the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was flat.

so theres no human or doggy heaven after all...

are you going to answer my question or not? is there a fucking doggy heaven?

life doesn't just spontaneously happen, the number of factors that must be in place to allow complex life is increasingly long

So then God couldn't have done it either if you just said yourself that life doesn't spontaneously happen.

Earth, the first planet??!?!!

:rofl:

more importantly, neither false concept can be found in the Bible


But! Every Bible you own was printed within the past century. Unless you have a Bible from 500 or even 1000 years ago you cannot say such a thing and be accurate. There is no way of knowing that the Bible has been altered, or not.

After all, there are two versions of the Bible, Catholic and King James, and maybe a lot more I don't know about.

But! Every Bible you own was printed within the past century. Unless you have a Bible from 500 or even 1000 years ago you cannot say such a thing and be accurate. There is no way of knowing that the Bible has been altered, or not.

After all, there are two versions of the Bible, Catholic and King James, and maybe a lot more I don't know about.


Dude, that comment was just so far off-base, you have no clue what you're talking about :)

Check out these handy phrases:

Septugiant
Dead Sea Scrolls
Torah

ummm, and your point with those items is?

yet again, there is no way of knowing if texts have been altered or what have you.

"who controls the present now, control the past. who controls the past now, control the future."

no, animals do not possess immortal souls, they are not "created in the image of God" (which primarily has spiritual significance, not physical)

If my labs aren't going to Heaven, I'm glad I'm not either.

180 planets have been discovered so far.... how can there not be life in one of them?


it's because God's lazy

Check out these handy phrases:

Septugiant
Dead Sea Scrolls
Torah

Torah = the hebrew scrolls, most of which is included in the Old Testament of the christian Bible.

The Septugiant is basically just the Greek translation of the Torah, where some of the first errors occurred (using the hebrew word for 'girl' to mean 'virgin', for example. The bible wasn't neccessarily claiming Mary was a virgin - though, given she became pregnant with Jesus at the age of 15 she may have been a virgin 'till then. Or the word 'poisoner' becoming 'witch' as another example)

The Septugiant was used by the greek-speaking Jewish scholars in Alexandria as their Torah. When the New Testament was written, it took quotes from the Septugient as quotes from the 'olt testament' rather than quoting the original hebrew source, so many of the mistakes carried on through.

and yes, much of the bible has been altered or edited out. The Catholic ten commandments are different than the Proddie and Hebrew versions, which are only slightly different than each other. The Apocripha was included in all bibles until about 150 years ago, when the Proddies deleted (de-canonized?) it from theirs while the Catholics continued to use it.

In reference to Mantis' post:

I could argue the translations till we are both blue in the face.
But it's really hard for me to do that online.

Growing up Agnostic/Jewish, I've had an interesting view on two sides of vastly multi-faceted issue.

Before I decided to take up my cross and follow Christ, I asked many people and professors, and read many books on many sides of many issues. Even before I read (or even cared to read) The Bible I liked looking up what I thought was 'spiritual' (I get that from my dad, who enjoys the Bhuddist "There are many paths up the mountain" view.)

There is a very good book on the subject of "The Case for Christ" by the same name. One of my only issues with this book is that it does not give the opposing side of the argument a lot of notice (speaking only with Christians).

However, the rest of your post is the result of not enough in-depth reaserch.

If you really want to learn more, I'll PM you my cell #.

Too tired to type that much today :)

However, the rest of your post is the result of not enough in-depth reaserch.

on the contrary, it's information I uncovered while researching a second year Religious Studies paper with input from both the local Rabbi and the head of the Christian college on campus.

on the contrary, it's information I uncovered while researching a second year Religious Studies paper with input from both the local Rabbi and the head of the Christian college on campus.

Two sources for a paper is hardly in-depth.

A topic of this magnatude requires YEARS of study, and many many good sources for even a basic understanding.

If my labs aren't going to Heaven, I'm glad I'm not either.


:werd:

Same with my GSP...

I'm not entirely clear on what happens to animals when they die.

However, in Genisis, it is written that there will be an accounting for even the lifeblood of the animals.

So it is entirely possable, but again, I am unclear on the subject.

Mmmm tofuball and mantis "sounding deep" pissing contests...

It's like this... every interpretation i've heard of the bible but my own is narrowminded, has everything predetermined, and just twists the bible to say what they already believe. The bible is SO broad on creation and it leaves room for scientific theories to be true also. People also tend to throw their "logic" opinion in there... "Well God wouldn't have done it that way." Why not? I hardly think any human is capable of understanding God's thought process and you can bet your last dollar safely that 99% of "Christians" won't ever say "well i don't exactly know" about creation... when they DO NOT.

Regardless of the basis of Christianity... modern day Christianity is flawed and screwed up. They miss the forest for the trees and I don't see anyone giving the slightest bit of effort to be Christ-like. However, I see "Christians" persecuting anyone that doesn't believe exactly as they do. Yeah... that's exactly what Jesus would do.

As I said before: Bible= Stories to live your life by. That's it, thats all.

Two sources for a paper is hardly in-depth.

I mentioned including two sources - fairly learned ones on the topic, at that - in addition to the other research.

I wrote a paper in the second year of a post-secondary course, consulting the Rabbi, head of the Jewish Schule, and the head of the Christian college - and you tell me it takes years of study and good sources? Think about that for a few.

[QUOTE=Tofuball]In reference to Tofuball's post:
Growing up Agnostic/Jewish, I've had an interesting view on two sides of vastly multi-faceted issue.
QUOTE]

Wow! A converted Jewish person. Instances of this are few and far between. I have a few Jewish friends, some orthodox. It is hard to watch them struggle to please G-d through the study of the law, knowing like Paul said that it is the schoolmaster.

I hear Matisyahu sing about how he wants Moshiach, he's already here. How can Isaiah 53 be speaking about any other person than Jesus Christ.

Someone tell me who else this could be speaking about:

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And *they made His grave with the wicked--
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

So a universe couldn't just appear spontaneously, but a guy with the power to create a universe with the wave of his hand DID appear spontaneously? Makes sense......

Wow! A converted Jewish person. Instances of this are few and far between. I have a few Jewish friends, some orthodox. It is hard to watch them struggle to please G-d through the study of the law, knowing like Paul said that it is the schoolmaster.

Yeh, I can't say I run into many of them. Lots of people ask me if I'm with "Jews for Jesus" and I have no clue who they are :p

Once I found a place called "Son of David" and they were a Messianic Congrigation (Jews who are believers). Not a very big group, but I learned a whole lot from them.

I mentioned including two sources - fairly learned ones on the topic, at that - in addition to the other research.

I wrote a paper in the second year of a post-secondary course, consulting the Rabbi, head of the Jewish Schule, and the head of the Christian college - and you tell me it takes years of study and good sources? Think about that for a few.

I'm sorry, I thought you ment you only had two sources. However, the posts you've made show a distinct lack of knowlage on the subject. That is what lead my to interperet it in that manner.

So a universe couldn't just appear spontaneously, but a guy with the power to create a universe with the wave of his hand DID appear spontaneously? Makes sense......

Correct. Take a few weeks and read through Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time and Brian Greene's the Elegant Universe. These are like primers to cosmology. A small understanding of the complexity involved in everything reveals a purpose.

No, it doesn't. Nothing that we know directly leads to a purposeful action by a man in the sky. The universe just appearing out of nothing is just as probable as some guy creating it out of nothing. Both are far fetched ideas, and one does not make much more sense than the other.

No, it doesn't. Nothing that we know directly leads to a purposeful action by a man in the sky. The universe just appearing out of nothing is just as probable as some guy creating it out of nothing. Both are far fetched ideas, and one does not make much more sense than the other.

Great stuff. Good points. Let me try to explain. At least you're considering it thoughtfully.


"Nothing that we know directly leads to a purposeful action by a man in the sky." It is a matter of interpretation and investigation. All we have are results to observe. No one is making universes in labs. My own interpretation of the results suggest that there is order and design. If you arrogantly rule out a creator it is impossible to see purpose. It is hard to argue against this logic. Seriously, pick up the Hawking and Greene books I recommended.


"The universe just appearing out of nothing is just as probable as some guy creating it out of nothing." Sweet. Do you really consider it 50-50 chance? Be honest with yourself. If you think there's a 50% chance that the world was created, don't you want to know why and who did it? And if you were created then what is the significance of your existense? Investigate this side of the 50% chance, the other option leaves you empty.


"Both are far fetched ideas, and one does not make much more sense than the other." Now come on. Think this statement through. 1 idea makes no sense. That things just happen, that universes just come into existense. The other idea suggests purpose and reason.

I'm not picking on you. I mean no offense, but tell me this. Is your opposition to the idea of a creator based on your own knowledge and study of the origins of universe or is it simply because you do not like the idea of accountability?

However, the posts you've made show a distinct lack of knowlage on the subject. That is what lead my to interperet it in that manner.

Uh huh. Meanwhile I have Christians claiming the Protestants never included the Apocrypha in their bibles, that all Christian bibles were based on the hebrew, not greek, texts, and that no editing or removal of books from the bible have ever occurred :rolleyes:

Great stuff. Good points. Let me try to explain. At least you're considering it thoughtfully.


"Nothing that we know directly leads to a purposeful action by a man in the sky." It is a matter of interpretation and investigation. All we have are results to observe. No one is making universes in labs. My own interpretation of the results suggest that there is order and design. If you arrogantly rule out a creator it is impossible to see purpose. It is hard to argue against this logic. Seriously, pick up the Hawking and Greene books I recommended.


"The universe just appearing out of nothing is just as probable as some guy creating it out of nothing." Sweet. Do you really consider it 50-50 chance? Be honest with yourself. If you think there's a 50% chance that the world was created, don't you want to know why and who did it? And if you were created then what is the significance of your existense? Investigate this side of the 50% chance, the other option leaves you empty.


"Both are far fetched ideas, and one does not make much more sense than the other." Now come on. Think this statement through. 1 idea makes no sense. That things just happen, that universes just come into existense. The other idea suggests purpose and reason.

I'm not picking on you. I mean no offense, but tell me this. Is your opposition to the idea of a creator based on your own knowledge and study of the origins of universe or is it simply because you do not like the idea of accountability?


It is because I hate being told that this is the way something happened, just because that's the way it happened.

How does 1 idea make no sense? That the universe was created from nothing? No, it doesn't make much sense, especially if you are a fan of physics. However a wizard in the sky who created a universe from nothing doesn't make sense either. Where did he come from? Who created him? No one has an answer, he just materialized from nothing. That does not make one more shred of sense than a universe materializing from nothing. Do you see my point? How can a supreme being just come into existence but a universe can't?

Order and design doesn't automatically mean purpose. We know order and design because we created the concept, modeled after the world around us. Simply because one thing affects another, or causes a reaction, or serves a certain purpose doesn't show me that it was created intentionally to do so. There are lots of things on this planet that there are no purpose or design to whatsoever. Many animals and insects in existence serve no purpose. We ourselves serve no purpose other than to exist.

Both sides of the story have serious holes in them. Followers of religion put their faith in that the same as people put their faith in science. Others don't see either as a logical explanation. It's a big question that no one has the concrete answer to. Hell, no one has the answer to what exactly happens when a human dies.

no, animals do not possess immortal souls, they are not "created in the image of God" (which primarily has spiritual significance, not physical)
thats BS! GOD SUCKS!

Uh huh. Meanwhile I have Christians claiming the Protestants never included the Apocrypha in their bibles, that all Christian bibles were based on the hebrew, not greek, texts, and that no editing or removal of books from the bible have ever occurred :rolleyes:

What do the random things other people claim have anything to with what I said?

And yours shows lack of the ability to spell properly :boobies:

We ALL know this. English isnt exactly my first language.

the apochryphal books are never quoted in the gospels or the epistles....for good reason

the dead sea scrolls prove the Bible has not been "changed" or "rewritten"


au conraire - the mistranslation of 'maiden', 'witch', and even gender specific pronouns changing from 'she' to 'he' back to 'she' from edition to edition - all have existed.

Not all gospels should be in there, and not all gospels that should be in there are. Eusebius, a church historian in the 3rd century, (not long after Christ - surely they could keep their stories straight that long?) wrote that Hebrews, James, Peter 2, John 2 & 3, and Revelations were either forgeries or false. Irenaeus, the guy that whittled the Bible down to 4 gospels (now standard), included a book called The Revelation of Peter - where'd that go?

edited to include Mark's post

what does god think about masturbation? serious question because i like to wack the monkey.

did god create black people? do KKK's read the bible?

this just boils down to the haughty attitude of a mid 20 something year old that I see all the time

I'm going to do it MY way, and figure out MY own answers

oh?

if God does not reveal it, it cannot be known, because no one was there and empirical science does NOT apply! these loony PhDs will continue to postulate hypothesis after hypothesis about the formation of the universe and they will NEVER get it right!

so, 1) have faith in men, 2) have faith in God and His Word, or 3) reject all of that and try to formulate your own answers to ultimate questions, which ultimately just ends in death


Or the attitude of someone who doesn't like being spoonfed information from unreliable sources. I'm intelligent enough to question bullshit when it is put in front of me. Accepting something because someone says it so is fine for some people I guess, but how often are people wrong? All the time.

And every option you gave ultimately ends in death.

actually it does....

information does not arise from *nothing*...it can only arise from an intelligent source, and even a single hydrogen atom is supremely sophisticated and information dense

furthermore, what sub-atomic particles may exist inside the atom we do not know about? we haven't even defined the limits of the macro universe, let alone the micro one!

you can only comprehend what you can see and perceive! if every human being alive could see the tiny machines inside the cells of their body or 500 billion galaxies light years away, would they shrug their shoulders, throw down another beer, and say "pffffttt...chance!"

only a fool would say that....and there are many fools

Your perception of order, design, and information were given to you by man. These ideas are created by man, what we see and traditionally know as order could in fact be random chance. If I walked into my bedroom and emptied the contents of my briefcase onto the floor, would there be design or order to the manner in which everything lands? Of course not, it all randomly fell out. If I wanted to sit down and analyze it though, I could come up with explanations for why the pencils went there, why the books went there, and why my keys are connecting the two. With enough conditioning, I could view that mess as structured and obviously created through intelligent design.

youre racist.

Yeh, I can't say I run into many of them. Lots of people ask me if I'm with "Jews for Jesus" and I have no clue who they are :p

Once I found a place called "Son of David" and they were a Messianic Congrigation (Jews who are believers). Not a very big group, but I learned a whole lot from them.



I'm sorry, I thought you ment you only had two sources. However, the posts you've made show a distinct lack of knowlage on the subject. That is what lead my to interperet it in that manner.

Just stop.

Thanks.