someone entertain my completely twisted line of reasoning.

1. abortion is wrong according to christian beliefs.
2. most fundamentalists christians believe that a soul inhabits an embryo from the moment of viable conception. (define that however you will)
3. aborting a baby from day one is therefore wrong, as it constitutes the murder of a life.
4. fundamentalist christians also believe that if you kill a baby, the soul instantly ascends to heaven because it constitutes an innocent. (versus. the alternative: the baby had no concept of christ or salvation, and never accepted jesus as its savior, nor do christians believe in reincarnation, so into the fire it goes!)

that leads to the fairly logical conclusion that aborting a baby does the soul of that baby a favor, as it bypasses the trial or challenge of life and faith and instantly earns eternal salvation.

that leads to the more twisted conclusion that one may damn his soul but free many other souls by going around and aborting/killing as many babies as he can.

discuss

People that complain about abortions are not christians.

Abortions are a good thing if you are a chirstian. The baby is guaranteed to go to heaven. Therefore when you die, you get to see your kids. And that is ideal. It is better to raise them in heaven than in Detroit.

With that line of logic, you're calling life pointlss. ^_^

look deeper in my post and you'll find I meant xtain logic are pointless

look deeper in my post and you'll find I meant xtain logic are pointless


That's your interpretation of xtain logic. Not actual xtain logic :P

That's your interpretation of xtain logic. Not actual xtain logic :P
hehe correct. (*looks to make sure ARK isnt around)

But I am closer to the truth than xtains are. They are not allowed to think any deeper. For if they were, they would have discovered this czaro logic and agreed with it.

God determines everything....without God, the cells of your body don't function

a statement that belongs in the evolution-separating-true-science-from-religion thread.


ontopic: the 'babies are automatically forgiven' notion HAS led good christian women to murder their children, to "save" them.

but the bible NOWHERE says that babies are forgiven.

that notion is a pure INVENTION added to the bible by people who cannot believe that the god they worship is really as hatefilled and vindictive as the bible DOES say he is.

4. fundamentalist christians also believe that if you kill a baby, the soul instantly ascends to heaven because it constitutes an innocent. (versus. the alternative: the baby had no concept of christ or salvation, and never accepted jesus as its savior, nor do christians believe in reincarnation, so into the fire it goes!)

that leads to the fairly logical conclusion that aborting a baby does the soul of that baby a favor, as it bypasses the trial or challenge of life and faith and instantly earns eternal salvation.

that leads to the more twisted conclusion that one may damn his soul but free many other souls by going around and aborting/killing as many babies as he can.

discuss



Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

1 Kings 15:29
And it came to pass, when he reigned, that he smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Ahijah the Shilonite:


so since a foetus does NOT breath it has not started playing in gods little murder game.

aborting a foetus is not murder, killing a living breathing baby at the direction of god is murder.

hehe correct. (*looks to make sure ARK isnt around)

But I am closer to the truth than xtains are. They are not allowed to think any deeper. For if they were, they would have discovered this czaro logic and agreed with it.

Disagree. I won’t deny that there are those who refuse to consider such matters deeper for their fear of judgment restricts them from doing so. Yet I would also argue that many do just the opposite and it is this practice of “logical” thought that has brought them to their faith. Personally, I find it easier to believe in something when you understand it, as opposed to just blindly assuming that it all works out somehow.

(note* I wanted to throw something in there about parallel dimensions, relative perceptions and such but it didn’t seem to flow)

Disagree. I won’t deny that there are those who refuse to consider such matters deeper for their fear of judgment restricts them from doing so. Yet I would also argue that many do just the opposite and it is this practice of “logical” thought that has brought them to their faith. Personally, I find it easier to believe in something when you understand it, as opposed to just blindly assuming that it all works out somehow.

You side with me, yet you allow room for christians to be logical in their beliefs as well. Interesting.

So if I allow myself to be rational towards a passage in the Bible to the point where I believe it, I will come to the point where I believe in God. Again, if they rational their thinking to a point if they find something in the Bible that makes sense, and if they did find such a passage, then it is ok to believe there is a god. If I stare at a snot wiped on the wall for too long, I will think it is a grasshopper?

Does this makes sense? All this because you can never be certain with human mind's perception. Right? (noticed I used rational, not logic. Rational makes your argument more sound. Logic does not)

You side with me, yet you allow room for christians to be logical in their beliefs as well. Interesting.

So if I allow myself to be rational towards a passage in the Bible to the point where I believe it, I will come to the point where I believe in God. Again, if they rational their thinking to a point if they find something in the Bible that makes sense, and if they did find such a passage, then it is ok to believe there is a god. If I stare at a snot wiped on the wall for too long, I will think it is a grasshopper?

Does this makes sense? All this because you can never be certain with human mind's perception. Right? (noticed I used rational, not logic. Rational makes your argument more sound. Logic does not)

I see what you’re trying to get at here but I’m not sure about the distinction that you’re trying to make between being rational and logical. Both ration and logic are subject to the individual who exercises it, correct? What’s the difference between agreeing with reason and agreeing with logic? Is one more absent of emotional influence than the other? Does one assume being a more personal conclusion while the other is more subject to persuasion? I don’t know. I’ve always felt that the two were pretty much interchangeable.

Anyway…. back to the point you were trying to make:

Comparing the Bible with your snot on the wall example obviously states your opinion. It also states the belief of superiority in your method of logic/rationality (whatever). There’s nothing wrong with this of course, I mean who would knowingly submit themselves to an inferior line of thinking? Problem is, on the other end of the spectrum, Christians are thinking the very same thing of you. Those who are honest with themselves and with what they believe in are just as rational as you. I say this tentatively of course as I’m sure that one could make an argument for one group being smarter than the other, but that’s another mess waiting to happen.

Personally, I find it easier to believe in something when you understand it, as opposed to just blindly assuming that it all works out somehow.

Darn! I had hoped that you would bite on that one.

that isn't the point...get married first

coming from a happily married man, I'm not sure why you have such an issue with this

despite your many faults, Dennis, I admire and respect the fact that you seem to genuinely love your wife and daughter

when was the last time you even just gave a simple comment without the need to point out flaws at the same time?? Just curious....

"Planned Parenthood" is a hopelessly liberal, amoral organization with a long, evil history

their agenda is basically eradication of Biblical morality

I get the feeling that all of the "evil" committed by PP lies in getting people away from your fairytale "morality" and able to make EDUCATED decisions about their lives.

but it's God who determines when life should end...at this point you are "playing God", and way out of line


I can't believe you fuckers didn't jump right on this one!

How do you know God isn't causing these women to have abortions? Perhaps God has determined that he doesn't want anymore idiots in the world.

As for being married preventing abortion, that assumes that the parents aren't idiots. I've seen plenty of married couples going in for abortions simply because they couldn't afford to keep a child.

People are fucked up. The Bible does not cure idiocy, and often makes it worse. Jim Jones anyone?

Originally Posted by yzf-r1
but it's God who determines when life should end...at this point you are "playing God", and way out of line

soooooooo.....by the same token of thought, when you proclaim that someone in here is not worth living, doesnt deserve to live, when you pray for their death, arent YOU then taking on the same exact attitude and crossing the same line?? I think so.....

because God never causes anyone to sin...they choose to do so of their own volition

1--God created man....
2--God created sin.....
3--God created human nature....

So, basically, God made man with his human nature and placed him in a world full of sin. This can actually be compared to taking a starving dog and putting him in a room with a gigantic fat juicy steak on the floor, and then expecting him not to take a bite.

If you build something, let's say you wrote a computer program. You designed that program in such a way that you KNEW without doubt what it would do over it's existence. Should you then be surprised when that program does exactly what you programmed it to do?

Let's say you build a car. Will it fly like a plane? Will it sail the ocean like a ship?? NO, because you built it with certain features that are only capable of certain things. God made man with the human nature we have. God KNEW what Eve was going to do in the garden, but he made her that way and put her in front of that tree. We often see you go on about the sinful human nature--if we were KNOWINGLY DESIGNED THAT WAY, and God knows what each of us will do before we are even born, then THAT IS NOT FREE THOUGHT. IT IS PREDESTINED. If God wanted you to be meek, he would not have made you a loudmouth. If God wanted you to be a woman, he would not have made you a man. If God wanted you to be humble, he would not have included the propensity for such overwhelming pride in your nature. Before you are born, God knows every sin you will commit--YOU DONT HAVE A CHOICE IN THE MATTER. If God makes a certain person to be a murderer for example, HE CANNOT CHANGE THAT ONCE HE IS ALIVE ON EARTH.

I can't believe you fuckers didn't jump right on this one!

How do you know God isn't causing these women to have abortions? Perhaps God has determined that he doesn't want anymore idiots in the world.

As for being married preventing abortion, that assumes that the parents aren't idiots. I've seen plenty of married couples going in for abortions simply because they couldn't afford to keep a child.

People are fucked up. The Bible does not cure idiocy, and often makes it worse. Jim Jones anyone?

Common sense isnt common.

And yes, the typical views on abortion often ignore married couples that go this route.

if "educated" = "killing of the innocent", then yes

let me ask this--how is that person innocent??

Let's say you are a teenage girl thinking about having sex....God already knows what your choice will be, right? God MADE YOU with that choice already made up for you. You cannot change God's plan for your life. Therefore, the innocence you speak of is NOTHING MORE THAN AN ILLUSION. The innocence you are talking about is nothing more than the state that the person is in until God's predestined planned route for that person's life crosses that line. It is not a choice when God already knows how He designed you and what He designed you to do....

I like where this thread is going. Seems a bit familar though.

The caps may seem somewhat condescending but he brings up some good points.

God created Adam. He created his body, soul and mind. Thus, everything that Adam thought at the exact moment of his creation was dictated by God. However, God also gave Adam’s mind the ability to learn and develop. This is where many see the illusion of free will but what they fail to take into consideration is all that Adam could learn from (i.e. his surroundings) also came from God. Therefore, everything Adam says, thinks, and does is the direct result of God. This same principle applies to every human being.

the weakness of your arguments (and jon's) is they always start and end with the human will, they reject the powerful impact of God on the human heart (for those He has called)

I have a rebuttal prepared but could you first elaborate on this for me?

what a raving douche bag.....

How the hell can you even pretend to ignore someone when you cant stop bringing my name up in every post you make??

Stop being such a fraud already and grow up.

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=118668&postcount=42

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=118682&postcount=44

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=118690&postcount=46

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=118700&postcount=48

In the span of four hours today, you couldnt help but to bring me up in your posts no less than four times--and that is just this one thread! IF YOU ARE GONNA IGNORE SOMEONE, THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DO IT. IF NOT, then be a fucking man and answer the points I laid out in front of you.

Ignoring someone is supposed to be done for YOUR benefit, not to show off to everyone like you won a cookie, you idiot....

the weakness of your arguments (and jon's) is they always start and end with the human will, they reject the powerful impact of God on the human heart (for those He has called)

The weakness of yours is that you wouldnt know honesty if it bit your nuts off.

"I'm ignoring you!!! everyone look at meeeeee!!!!1ONEZERZ!!!"

sad....

I'm not sure how to elaborate on it, if you haven't experienced it....I'm convinced neither you or jon have

Sorry, but that doesn’t work. You can obscure it all you like but the reality is that everything must come from God and this includes free will, ironically making one’s will completely restricted.

You say that my argument always starts with free will but I fail to consider the “powerful impact of God on the human heart.” What relevance does this bare on one’s inability to choose freely? If God calls certain people to Him, effectively influencing their will then isn’t it fair to say that their path was not freely chosen? Likewise those who have not been called.

You have not found any weakness in this argument.

Adam is faced with making a decision. To make his choice he might use his mind, heart, soul, etc. but all aspects of this man are endowed by God. He uses the tools that he has been given, using them to the extent that they allow.

So here’s Adam, faced with the dilemma of either giving into temptation or resisting it. First we must realize that this temptation was given to Adam by God. This was done in two ways. First, in the physical sense as God puts Adam on a path that will intersect with temptation and second, in the mental/spiritual sense, where Adam faces temptation within his mind. Without both of these components, Adam is not tempted to sin. Adam’s choice is one that will be determined by his character (character meaning body, soul, and mind). His character has been determined by God.

Skydivr made the comparison with a computer program. You design a program to run a certain way. Even if the program is poorly designed and is unable to complete its intended task it still acts in accordance with how you made it. Granted a human being is much more complicated than any computer program but to the All Mighty, I fail to see how this would prove to be any sort of challenge.

If man sins, he does so because God wants him to.

classic argument of free will vs. predetermination.
if god creates and controls everything, how can there be any free will?
i argue its a point of view problem.

the answer is that everything happens once and only happens one way. god is timeless so he sees all past present and future.

but human beings are bound to the present, so each decision appears like a crossroad. however, we choose once of our own volition. that path is then set.

if you look at the past from the perspective of the present, it's really miraculous. think about all the specific pairings of man and woman that had to occur just for you in particular to be born. all the incidental sidestories and political intrigues for the modern day to appear exactly as it is. etc.

if you look at the future from the perspective of the present, it looks completely open ended. but that is only b/c of a human limitation - imperfect knowledge.

indeed, god knows which paths we will choose before we choose them. that does not mean he wants or induces us to choose the wrong choice. god is like a parent that wants the child to choose the right choice of his own volition. and he is sad when they do not. but the gift of free will was granted for this very purpose. he COULD simply make everyone 'saved,' but then that would nullify the very purpose of existence.

my 2 cents.

Adam is faced with making a decision. To make his choice he might use his mind, heart, soul, etc. but all aspects of this man are endowed by God. He uses the tools that he has been given, using them to the extent that they allow.

So here’s Adam, faced with the dilemma of either giving into temptation or resisting it. First we must realize that this temptation was given to Adam by God. This was done in two ways. First, in the physical sense as God puts Adam on a path that will intersect with temptation and second, in the mental/spiritual sense, where Adam faces temptation within his mind. Without both of these components, Adam is not tempted to sin. Adam’s choice is one that will be determined by his character (character meaning body, soul, and mind). His character has been determined by God.

Skydivr made the comparison with a computer program. You design a program to run a certain way. Even if the program is poorly designed and is unable to complete its intended task it still acts in accordance with how you made it. Granted a human being is much more complicated than any computer program but to the All Mighty, I fail to see how this would prove to be any sort of challenge.

If man sins, he does so because God wants him to.

not only that, but at the same time, God made each one of us with the knowledge of every sin we would ever commit, and He STILL made us that way. Marky is sitting over there all hung up on his inferiority complex, and always complains that everything I post starts with human will, but as usual he is dead wrong....It was GOD'S WILL that man be created the way man was created. DIVINE WILL, marky....you know, the thing you claim we never discuss???:eek:

God "programmed" each of us according to HIS plan, NOT OURS. By choosing to create a specific person, and choosing to create that person so that he would definitely sin the way God knew he would, there is a very substantial argument there against free will altogether.

Now, if only some random jackass around here was not so busy "ignoring" people that he could do nothing but brag about it....he might actually learn something....

classic argument of free will vs. predetermination.

Not quite.

if god creates and controls everything, how can there be any free will?
i argue its a point of view problem.

the answer is that everything happens once and only happens one way. god is timeless so he sees all past present and future.

but human beings are bound to the present, so each decision appears like a crossroad. however, we choose once of our own volition. that path is then set.

if you look at the past from the perspective of the present, it's really miraculous. think about all the specific pairings of man and woman that had to occur just for you in particular to be born. all the incidental sidestories and political intrigues for the modern day to appear exactly as it is. etc.

if you look at the future from the perspective of the present, it looks completely open ended. but that is only b/c of a human limitation - imperfect knowledge.

indeed, god knows which paths we will choose before we choose them. that does not mean he wants or induces us to choose the wrong choice. god is like a parent that wants the child to choose the right choice of his own volition. and he is sad when they do not. but the gift of free will was granted for this very purpose. he COULD simply make everyone 'saved,' but then that would nullify the very purpose of existence.

my 2 cents.

Thanks for your input but it doesn't really seem like you're taking any of the previous posts into consideration here as what you've addressed is not really what we are discussing.

classic argument of free will vs. predetermination.
if god creates and controls everything, how can there be any free will?
i argue its a point of view problem.

the answer is that everything happens once and only happens one way. god is timeless so he sees all past present and future.

but human beings are bound to the present, so each decision appears like a crossroad. however, we choose once of our own volition. that path is then set.

if you look at the past from the perspective of the present, it's really miraculous. think about all the specific pairings of man and woman that had to occur just for you in particular to be born. all the incidental sidestories and political intrigues for the modern day to appear exactly as it is. etc.

if you look at the future from the perspective of the present, it looks completely open ended. but that is only b/c of a human limitation - imperfect knowledge.

indeed, god knows which paths we will choose before we choose them. that does not mean he wants or induces us to choose the wrong choice. god is like a parent that wants the child to choose the right choice of his own volition. and he is sad when they do not. but the gift of free will was granted for this very purpose. he COULD simply make everyone 'saved,' but then that would nullify the very purpose of existence.

my 2 cents.

you are missing the point. If you write a computer program that you KNOW has a flaw, then it is safe to say that you will then know when or how that program will malfunction. This is no different--God created me, for example. God knew what my strengths and weaknesses were going to be before I even existed--He made me that way. God knew each and every sin that I was going to commit before I ever took a breath. That means that I DID NOT HAVE THE CHOICE. He created me knowing exactly how I was going to be--He made me this way by His design. That is not free will. That is following the program that God wrote. I do not have the capability to change what God does, and neither do you....so tell me, since God created all of us the exact way that we are, knowing full well exactly what we would do in our lives, where is the choice? Suppose God created you, and He knew that you would shoot three people in a botched carjacking two years from now--DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO OVERRIDE GOD'S PLAN? Do you have the ability to make a different choice? CAN YOU SURPRISE GOD LIKE THAT by choosing not to shoot those people? If you can, then SURPRISE--it means that God is not the all-knowing all-powerful being that He is supposed to be!

Simply put, you cannot have it both ways--either God is omnipotent, or He is not. Either He holds the master plan, or we can change it by making our own choices. YOU PICK, but pick ONLY ONE....

EDIT-one more point....if what you are saying is true, then why would He have made all the people that wont follow Him? He knows all before we are born, so if this really were just a matter of free will, why would all the "unclean" masses be here? Certainly there is more than enough temptation without so many? When we sin, we dont even think about what people in china are doing, or what is acceptable in France, for example, so what purpose would all that serve? You're telling me that God made all those unclean masses, which make Him immensely sad, ON PURPOSE....He made himself sad on purpose? God loves misery that much that billions of nonbelievers needed to be here? That does not fit with the rest of your view IMO.

If this is really a matter of choice, then He gains nothing by having all the unbelievers around--and at the same time, those who choose to follow would still make their own choice....that does not add up.

Not quite.



Thanks for your input but it doesn't really seem like you're taking any of the previous posts into consideration here as what you've addressed is not really what we are discussing.

i will admit i glossed over all that stuff because i am a lazy bastard

Simply put, you cannot have it both ways--either God is omnipotent, or He is not. Either He holds the master plan, or we can change it by making our own choices. YOU PICK, but pick ONLY ONE....

i disagree. its entirely possible to have an omnipotent being who allows beings to make their own choices.

i will admit i glossed over all that stuff because i am a lazy bastard



i disagree. its entirely possible to have an omnipotent being who allows beings to make their own choices.

Let's take this a step further.

Suppose God makes a person, let's call him Fred. God created Fred with the full knowledge that Fred was gonna be a porn addict. God created Fred with the full knowledge that Fred was not going to be chosen by God to enter heaven. Follow so far? Good.

NOW, please provide to me the answer to this:

Knowing everything I just said, tell me, how can Fred make the choices that will allow him to enter heaven? DOES HE HAVE THE CHOICE?

I didnt think so.

No matter what Fred tries to do, think, or imagine, he has NO CHOICE AVAILABLE. God has already determined Fred's destination, am I correct? THIS IS NOT FREE WILL. When the choice is made for you and YOU HAVE NO SAY IN IT, then it is NOT FREE WILL under any rational definition, period.

By the same token, the reverse is also true--Saul went around hunting Christians like they were big game....and he made it to heaven. But a guy that yanks his crank to porn for the next three years could be refused entry to heaven at that same time. Now, would you rather jack off or kill people?

So you see, the "choice" whether or not to sin is really irrelevant, if it even exists at all, because no one is without sin, and God chooses who goes where. That takes all opportunity for choice out of it. There is not even anything you can do in this life to change God's mind, to have your name written in the Book of Life, if God's plan for you before you were even born does not include heaven! THAT is the point, THAT is not free will, THAT is predestined. People who sin every day will go to heaven, and others who commit the exact same sins will not. God picks which ones will be with Him, we dont choose anything.

um... that's the same argument from before.

choice is something you experience moving from past to present to future.

something that transcends time is what it is because it is and couldn't have been any other way.

we are obviously not going to agree so i will leave it at that.

You can go even further with this, saying that absence of free will exists even if God does not.

You can go even further with this, saying that absence of free will exists even if God does not.

indeed you can. i'm glad you pointed that out.

anywhere science/philosophy/religion intersect you get some really whacky shit.

quantum mechanics/multiverse/electron shell/particles winking in and out of existence/etc.

we are obviously not going to agree so i will leave it at that.

That's because you are looking at in from the wrong perspective. Imagine you are in a room that has three doors. Now unbeknown to you, two of these doors are locked. Wishing to leave, you happen to first choose the door that is unlocked. You seem to think that this suggests some sort of duality of fate, where there is only one choice that you can possibly make yet you freely make the choice without this knowledge. The problem with this is that you are ignoring the question that asks "where did the capacity to make such a choice come from?"

are we still talking about this from a god controls the universe perspective or from a philosophical what is the capacity for choice / does choice even actually exist perspective?

You can look at it from any perspective you like. The fact that the ability to think, reason, rationalize, and decide does not come from you remains the same.

from the religious perspective all endowments would be credited to a higher power.

from the scientific perspective its unexplained. i think choice would be incident to our perception of reality and the one directional flow of time.

i think choice would be incident to our perception of reality and the one directional flow of time.

No, choice would be the result of one's environment and genetics.

that depends on your frame of reference.

if you are searching for a biological rationale BEHIND our choices, then you can pull the enviorment and genetics card.

if you are searching for a REASON as to WHY we experience choice at all, then you have to realize it's incident to the very experience of reality as perceived by our consciousness.
i.e. TIME itself can be expressed as a vector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space

um... that's the same argument from before.

choice is something you experience moving from past to present to future.

something that transcends time is what it is because it is and couldn't have been any other way.

we are obviously not going to agree so i will leave it at that.

we dont agree because of the difference in logic....using yours, let's examine this...

1--PAST--not a single one of us chose to be created. Once we were created, not a single one of us chose to live where we were born, none of us chose our families, none of us chose the home life that resulted. All of this was decided without our input.

2--PRESENT--if God already knows precisely what He will make you into, then there is no choice involved here either. Now, I am not talking about the choice of what job you will have, or what car you will buy--I am talking about a purely spiritual issue here--the issue of salvation. No matter how many things in this life you can choose, none of them can be taken with you when you leave this life. The only choice that will make any difference in that is whether or not you have been chosen by God before you were even born....and again, you have no say in that. you could read the Bible daily, help little old ladies cross the street, repent for every sin, pray nightly, be the most selfless person there is, but above all, IF GOD HAS NOT EARMARKED YOU FOR HEAVEN, NONE OF THOSE CHOICES WILL CHANGE THAT FATE. God and God alone has the say there, and His decision was already made before you set foot on earth. So, again, where is the choice??

3--FUTURE--simple--you can choose anything you like, but again it comes to one decision--where you will spend eternity. God decided that already, and we cannot change His plan, remember??

So, please tell me what I am missing from your statement, that we disagree this much. Even using the logic of what you have posted, the choice simply is not there. Marky loves to point out that "narrow is the gate and few will enter..."

By the way, it was not exactly the same argument from before, but if you had addressed that argument properly, there would not be need to continue on. Simply saying "it is free will" doesnt explain anything. Using scripture, one can easily see the references to how God knew us before we were even born....

you're still here, right?

Thats proof of many things, chief among them that I am not, in fact, an idiot. If I was I would sit on my porch drinking Bud Light and ride shopping carts down steep hills. Second its proof that God either A) doesn't exsist or B) could shit care less about its toy anymore.

...etc

dude

your position is perfectly clear, and i disagree with it.

you don't need these crazy hypos to state it clearly

god created all and controls all and everything is predestined. so choice (spiritual or daily) is an illusion and people are presdestined to go to heaven or hell.

and i already told you i reject that argument. it's overly simplistic and doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of standard fate vs. free will arguments.

dude

your position is perfectly clear, and i disagree with it.

you don't need these crazy hypos to state it clearly

god created all and controls all and everything is predestined. so choice (spiritual or daily) is an illusion and people are presdestined to go to heaven or hell.

and i already told you i reject that argument. it's overly simplistic and doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of standard fate vs. free will arguments.

This isnt about hypos--I laid it out clear as a bell. The whole past, present, future thing was really where it is at.

Prove me wrong then, if you understand it so well.

1--Did God infact choose who will be saved and who will not? OR DO WE CHOOSE THAT FOR OURSELVES?

2--Once God's plan is decided and set forth, HOW CAN A HUMAN CHANGE IT?

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am seriously interested in those answers. The biggest bible pusher in here is marky, and even he quotes scriptures all the time about how God chooses who He will allow into heaven. If God chooses this, and our lives are known to Him before we are even born, then where is our free will? How can we excercise free will to influence that outcome? The truth is WE CANNOT.

AGAIN, you cannot have it both ways here. The bible says that God chooses who will be saved. The bible says that God knows exactly what we will do before we take one breath. The bible is clear on this. By default, if those things are true, then there is nothing you can do to determine where your eternity will be spent. SIN is not the answer there because everyone sins, even those who get saved. So, the answer must be what is in your heart, and correct me if I am wrong but GOD is the one who creates our hearts--we dont. This is not me just making shit up---this is about what the bible says on the matter.

but hey, dont take my word for it--

JEREMIAH 1:4-5

4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Now, do you believe that the Bible is God's true word? Because the bible is telling you that I am on the money on this one. Before he was born, God knew what Jeremiah was going to be, and what his destiny was....before he was born, God "set him apart". NOT MY CONCEPT--comes right out of the bible itself.

I agree! humans were designed to fail...but this does not excuse sin



well, doesnt this just bolster my point???

1--God's plan is not changeable by humans.
2--God created man with the full knowledge that man was going to sin.
3--by marky's own admission, WE WERE DESIGNED TO SIN.
4--Who can go against God's will and plan?

If God designed us to sin, made us so that we would sin, and planned all along for us to do so, then how is the idea of sin a CHOICE??

This is common sense 101 here people....

ha....don't feed the troll....jon is a troll here, nothing more, just ignore him

you'll only get another page long rant in all caps stating "you fail" :rolleyes:

absolutely worthless...

yet again, this is not how someone is "ignored", moron....you are pathetic.

Anyways, the truth is evident in my posts--not once do you see "you fail" anywhere in there. I treat people with far more respect than that when they are not too busy wishing me dead to be respectful themselves, and in my posts to azn this is so easily obvious that this ignorance from mark is plain as day.

no comment, ark man?

Sorry, I’m on the home stretch of studying for my exams so the regularity of my responses may vary.

just to clarify, I'm referring here to original sin...although God does not delight in sin, it ultimately brings him glory; however, if you attempt to use this dangerous argument as your defense at the judgment, you will be ashamed
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pretty much sums it up....yes, God allowed sin to humble us and test us, but to "write-off" sin as "all God's fault, therefore I cannot be condemned" is an exceedingly dangerous philosophy

In reference to using this restriction of will or governed fate as an excuse during one’s judgment, I don’t recall raising such as an issue in this thread. Never-the-less, since we are on the topic now, judgment itself is a perplexing thing. Let’s assume for a moment that we are in fact responsible for our own sins. Why should there be an actual event of judgment? God already knows our freely chosen fate so why not just caste the unworthy into hell without the big show? Is it that God owes us an explanation? Is God held accountable to us and if so, by whom?

Looking at it from my own perspective, I do not see how we can possibly be held responsible for our own actions (virtuous or otherwise) so judgment is even more of a farce in my eyes. What bothers me is that people are created in such a way that they will sin and reject God. This is orchestrated to glorify God. Once man has served his purpose (which he did not choose) he is cast into Hell where he eternally suffers. Does God delight in such pain and torment?

Psalm 2

Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
“Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

Does God really laugh with joy over the torment and pain that is bound to the damned?

yes, human beings have a bent toward rebellion and sin, but there is also the issue of learned/habitual behavior...that's what true repentance is supposed to correct


I'm very glad that you have come to this because my point is that what is learned and what is habitual is also not subject to our choice. In fact, this has been my main focus from the begining. One does not choose their environment (at least not initially) yet one's environment, in part, shapes who one is. This in turn influences one's ability to make choices. That is why this restriction of fate exists whether you believe in God or not. We don't get to choose who we become.

no, God laughs in mockery at those who consider themselves wise in the absence of Divinely inspired truth/ knowledge

Then He laughs at the actions that will lead one to suffer eternally.

I disagree



but the whole thrust of the scriptures is that environment is not the root cause of sin, it is the human heart, which is inherently rebellious, and, after Adam fell, separated from the life of God

note that during the Millennium, in a time of world peace and prosperity, people will still rebel against God's rule: both His earthly rule and the right to rule in their hearts



again I disagree....although God must rescue the sinner from death, it is not correct to say that a person in "x" environment has no hope of salvation

1--who made the human heart inherently rebellious? This is a point that you consistently ignore because it interferes with your claims. The human heart was NOT made rebellious by man's choice or doing....you fail to grasp that. God made the very first man, and then the very first woman, with human nature installed. It isnt like He changed the recipe to make a human after Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that tree....

2--your thoughts on environment are interesting....but nonetheless, ignorant. For example, how many "correct" bibles do you think there were in China in the early 20th century? How many "real" churches do you think there were? You are a moron if you cannot understand that so many people in this world spend their lives in a place where they have no way of knowing that there is something other than their daily reality out there. That makes such people, more or less, a product of their environment, because they never had any opportunity to learn about God. Why do you think it was said:

Go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS....

??

There were places, evident plenty in the bible itself, where the Word was NOT KNOWN and so it had to be brought there. This is the same thing.

I just posted what grieves the heart of God...guess you ignored that....as well as the fact the Christ wept over Jerusalem, knowing what would soon befall it

I serve a compassionate God, abounding in mercy

that's funny enough to nearly make me piss myself....

you serve a compassionate God, yet you are the least compassionate person any of us has ever met....

can you say.....HYPOCRITE??

can we get this back on topic?

see ya JONNIE!!!!

Animals have no soul. Killing 'em before they can think is the way to go.