avoiding a sin of hating/disdain to a sin of murder and guilt? What are your views about abortion?

you should have had an option for sever retardation etc also multiple choice


i am against abortions for the most part, i believe that if the mother could die, if it was a result of rape/incest or if you were absolutly sure this baby would never be able to function because of sever retardation etc. But i also believe that every woman has the right to choose it's her body, i mean i have a friend who kept a baby from rape yet aborted 3 babies with a man that she loved because there was to much of a gap between them and her daughter (age wise) now she is pregnant and almost due because she found out to late and couldn't have an abortion. i hated knowing what was going on but i also respected her decision

I think abortion shouldn't be a choice.







It should be MANDATORY.





Up to and including those in the 360th trimester.

(You know, people of the age of 120)


;P

Actually, the snipped kid is going to heaven. so abortion is a plus. and there is no such thing as pro life. it is a folly from your imagination. life isnt pro life.

god is glad we are sending flawless souls into heaven.

needs an undecided button

i can't say whether its morally justified or not

i do believe it is often, if not always, rather tragic

on the positive side, i get to use this funny picture

This ought to be interesting...

...and azn, that is rather grotesque :puke:

god is glad we are sending flawless souls into heaven.

comments like this are why i questioned you about being born again before....

not because you doubt God, but because someone who was born again should have been taught much better than this. ALL the souls that go to Heaven are flawless when they get there, made flawless by His grace. that's the whole point of going through life the way we do--if all God wanted was flawless souls, He would have made us all like robots, or He would have killed us all at birth!

think harder, youre smarter than that.

There is life well before conception. But I find it very hard to say something has a human life unless it has the necessities to create a human death.

Feel free to look up the medical definition of pronouncing a human death in a medical dictionary. I think you will find zygotes lack heartbeat and brain activity.

"The uniform determination of death. The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws in 1980 formulated the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead."

"The official signs of death include the following:

* no pupil reaction to light
* no response of the eyes to caloric (warm or cold) stimulation
* no jaw reflex (the jaw will react like the knee if hit with a reflex hammer)
* no gag reflex (touching the back of the throat induces vomiting)
* no response to pain
* no breathing
* a body temperature above 86 °F (30 °C), which eliminates the possibility of resuscitation following cold-water drowning
* no other cause for the above, such as a head injury
* no drugs present in the body that could cause apparent death
* all of the above for 12 hours
* all of the above for six hours and a flat-line electroencephalogram (brain wave study)
* no blood circulating to the brain, as demonstrated by angiography"

^^^ So which of the above is relevant with cellular clusters?

Sure, keep posting lies.

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm

Looks like the Pro-Lifers are sleeping with the creationists. Lying for Jesus

Maybe in the world of ignorance a liars. Luckily we don't have morons like you deciding for the rest of us.

OMG not hell!:40oz:

Last time i checked Abortions are legal. So really its your outdated opinion which is irrelevant. Its also the reason your special interest groups spread lies on the topic. People can either buy into it or go take a biology class and understand the truth.

OMG not hell!:40oz:

Last time i checked Abortions are legal. So really its your outdated opinion which is irrelevant. Its also the reason your special interest groups spread lies on the topic. People can either buy into it or go take a biology class and understand the truth.

legal according to what??

In some countries, it is legal to beat your wife in public as long as you dont kill her.

In other countries, it is legal to sell drugs like heroin and cocaine to minors, and then watch them kill their brains with what you just sold them.

just because something is legal according to MAN'S law, that doesnt mean it is legal as intended by God.

oh boy..........................so it is in your opinion (anyone who doesn't believe in abortions) for daddy to fuck his little girl and then make her give birth to it???????

who am I to determine what life deserves to live and what life doesnt deserve to live? Who are you to determine that? Who are any of us that anyone here should think they have the right to determine if another person has a chance at life or not?

To answer your question directly, no, i dont believe that abortion is right in ANY circumstance. 'daddy' molested his daughter, and daddy should pay the piper for that.....but the unborn child did NOTHING WRONG, so why should we punish that child by taking his/her life?

Youre going to find if you look through life that not everyone has had good circumstances....I am not saying it wouldnt be a hard start to life, but who are you that you think youve got the right to determine that that child doesnt deserve that shot at life? think about that-what if someone determined when you were still unborn that you werent worth it? This is no different--except it isnt happening to you, maybe thats why some people find it so easy to make that choice.

legal according to what??

In some countries, it is legal to beat your wife in public as long as you dont kill her.

In other countries, it is legal to sell drugs like heroin and cocaine to minors, and then watch them kill their brains with what you just sold them.

just because something is legal according to MAN'S law, that doesnt mean it is legal as intended by God.

Thankfully we live in a country with the separation of church and state.

Thankfully we live in a country with the separation of church and state.

well in that case, i am sure you wont have any problem at all giving me all your money....after all, what use could you possibly have for something that says "IN GOD WE TRUST" all over it??

Thankfully, despite the best efforts of man-made society, the Word still carries on. listening to man when it comes to questions of a power thats higher than man is like having someone perform surgery on you because they visited a hospital once.....

who am I to determine what life deserves to live and what life doesnt deserve to live? Who are you to determine that? Who are any of us that anyone here should think they have the right to determine if another person has a chance at life or not?

God does give us freedom of choice, and the bible doesn't say killing your unborn is a sin...

God does give us freedom of choice, and the bible doesn't say killing your unborn is a sin...


1--thats frankly a ridiculous statement if ever there was one....the same freedom of choice could be applied in the exact same way if you chose to murder a bus load of old women.....so what? freedom of choice does not mean that all of your choices will be right or acceptable.

2--Did the Bible say "thou shalt not kill", or does it say "thou shalt not kill those who have already left the womb"?? The Bible makes it clear that killing is a sin, and made no distinction between "fetus" or "born child". so what makes you think that if God didnt make such a distinction that you are somehow authorized to do it?

Taking a life is taking a life, period. you can try to justify it any way you like, but at the end of the day, killing is killing. No amount of excuses or trying to get around 'thou shalt not kill' will change that fact.

1--thats frankly a ridiculous statement if ever there was one....the same freedom of choice could be applied in the exact same way if you chose to murder a bus load of old women.....so what? freedom of choice does not mean that all of your choices will be right or acceptable.

Referring to your below argument, this would be sinful as you are committing murder. However:


2--Did the Bible say "thou shalt not kill", or does it say "thou shalt not kill those who have already left the womb"?? The Bible makes it clear that killing is a sin, and made no distinction between "fetus" or "born child". so what makes you think that if God didnt make such a distinction that you are somehow authorized to do it?

Taking a life is taking a life, period. you can try to justify it any way you like, but at the end of the day, killing is killing. No amount of excuses or trying to get around 'thou shalt not kill' will change that fact.

This brings us back to the definition of killing/murder, meaning to take someone's life. This also brings us back to the argument as to when "life" begins. Technically speaking, everytime you jerk off and spit into the toilet you are committing murder as the little spermies are technically "alive." If "life" is defined as when human conseption occurs, is the cluster of cells human life, or is human life defined as the first heartbeat? The Bible certainly doesn't define the start of life very well now does it?

Actually, it does :)

well in that case, i am sure you wont have any problem at all giving me all your money....after all, what use could you possibly have for something that says "IN GOD WE TRUST" all over it??

Thankfully, despite the best efforts of man-made society, the Word still carries on. listening to man when it comes to questions of a power thats higher than man is like having someone perform surgery on you because they visited a hospital once.....

Right because a slogan on currency has anything to do with keeping religious fascism out of our government. If we were really going to live by the book we could also include slavery, selling your daughters into slavery, animal sacrifice, killing somebody for working on sabbath and even stoning your child to death.

Let the word carry on. But it's disgusting to think that people can impose such ludicrous outdated traditions in our society.

Right because a slogan on currency has anything to do with keeping religious fascism out of our government. If we were really going to live by the book we could also include slavery, selling your daughters into slavery, animal sacrifice, killing somebody for working on sabbath and even stoning your child to death.

Let the word carry on. But it's disgusting to think that people can impose such ludicrous outdated traditions in our society.

well said

god is glad we are sending flawless souls into heaven.

comments like this are why i questioned you about being born again before....

not because you doubt God, but because someone who was born again should have been taught much better than this. ALL the souls that go to Heaven are flawless when they get there, made flawless by His grace. that's the whole point of going through life the way we do--if all God wanted was flawless souls, He would have made us all like robots, or He would have killed us all at birth!

think harder, youre smarter than that.

SMARTER: A very interesting word.
You need the mind to make controlled choices like that. Did you know that little un-borns can not? Little un-borns can't even make the conscience effort to sin. In the simplest way to explain this, their efforts are mindless, involuntary responses. They will be found with no sin on A-Day.

Now, lets talk about whether this kid has a soul or not. I was taught that god makes your body and soul at same time. Unless you know something that I don't, the procedure to which what was made first, body or soul or at same time, prior of abortion is unknown to Mankind to this day. But for my argument, God made both at same time. It seems Godgical.

So therefore, the following statement still solid:


god is glad we are sending flawless souls into heaven.
p.

you could talk in circles all day about when an immortal soul is born, and for whatever reason God chose pitiful human flesh as the beginning, the boot camp, of infinity....a concept that is staggering to me, and I love to think about it...but, anyway, the exact moment is not important, what's important is a willful desire to kill the innocent for selfish reasons

I say:
Once God decides he wants another soul into this world, it can not be stopped by human hands. The omnipotent God must have designed this event to happen as it did. No one is going to hell over it. He simply needs pure souls.

that's the carnal argument that God plans human evil....read the verse I posted before

".....which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination"

past tense sentence from god. Probably referring to an action that happened during that time he said that.

true, but God is immutable

god can not change? His laws did. One in particular, animal sacrifice. Does that mean God can change if his laws do? i think so.

Just came out of the Third Book (Ludicrous (sp?)) which talks a lot about animal sacrifice. God demanded sacrifice from sinning Israelites and priests. ya cant tell me they not sinning today.

so, then sacrifice never changed. your God is still immutable under this argument. we'll see what I'll find in the future.

how did we get off subject?

I don't see anything funny about that picture at all, I've seen it before, but those tiny hands and feet are amazing....how could anyone be so heartless as to kill their unborn child? many such women have severe psychological problems (witness the recent case in the news)

as the Bible says, in the last days, people will be without natural affections...surely we are here, it's an incredibly shallow, desensitized, mass media world

it's tongue in cheek. i don't actually think it's funny. i do think it's valuable for people to see it. until you see it, 'abortion' is a nice nebulous concept where people easily argue in absolutism, one way or another.

Referring to your below argument, this would be sinful as you are committing murder. However:



This brings us back to the definition of killing/murder, meaning to take someone's life. This also brings us back to the argument as to when "life" begins. Technically speaking, everytime you jerk off and spit into the toilet you are committing murder as the little spermies are technically "alive." If "life" is defined as when human conseption occurs, is the cluster of cells human life, or is human life defined as the first heartbeat? The Bible certainly doesn't define the start of life very well now does it?


1--according to the bible, masturbation itself is sexually immoral, as sex was designed to ONLY be between a man and his wife. so, if you want to try to take this in that direction, youre still on the wrong side of the Word with that concept.

2--the Bible in your words doesnt define "life" well, so you take it upon yourself to think it means whatever you want it to? Sorry, I cannot buy into tha logic at all.

3--since a pregnancy can only result from sex, and sex is sacred according to God, how in the world could you or anyone else treat a pregnancy like it should be disposable? Clearly, it wasnt designed or created for us to abuse it like the human race has. And then, killing off the consequences of someone's mistake like that is acceptable to you? Sorry, thats an even bigger stretch....God provides consequences for everything that goes against His law, and it would be very short-sighted to think differently.

4--read a little further into this post, and you will see something that pops out in regards to this issue.

Right because a slogan on currency has anything to do with keeping religious fascism out of our government. If we were really going to live by the book we could also include slavery, selling your daughters into slavery, animal sacrifice, killing somebody for working on sabbath and even stoning your child to death.

Let the word carry on. But it's disgusting to think that people can impose such ludicrous outdated traditions in our society.

then again, all of that is OT law, and was all done away with when the New covenant came. but hey, why should you bother reading the book you mock as untrue? not like its actually important to know what it really means, right??


well said

whats really sad here, misty, isnt the fact that you dont believe the Bible, its the fact that you dont believe the Bible but you dont even know what it actually says. Perhaps some reading would benefit you--in the end, even if it didnt change your mind, you would at least know what it is that you dont agree with.

its pretty sad for anyone, regardless of what side of this they are on, to mock something when they dont even know what it contains. In fact, if you knew what the Bible was about, you would have known that the whole post you just thought of as "well said" was in fact pointless and inaccurate, because the examples he posted all came from Old Testament law, which has been since replaced with the New Covenant thanks to Jesus. Throughout half the Bible, those things were no longer allowed, so for you or anyone else to think that they are what we are commanded to do in that book, well, thats your mistake, not ours. Nice try though.....hope it works out better for you next time you blindly charge ahead like that.

SMARTER: A very interesting word.
You need the mind to make controlled choices like that. Did you know that little un-borns can not? Little un-borns can't even make the conscience effort to sin. In the simplest way to explain this, their efforts are mindless, involuntary responses. They will be found with no sin on A-Day.

um, once more, I would really like to know exactly what the church you attended taught you. You see, by that logic there, we would be justified in abortion....but by that same logic, we would be just as justified if we went around murdering young children. My youngest is not quite 2, our middle child is 3....and according to God, they are both too young to be held accountable for their actions. So, since their souls are still pure, how would it be any different, using your logic as you posted it there, if we killed 2-year olds as opposed to abortion? Face it, there's a massive hole in your logic there.

According to your "pure soul" theory, there would be no difference, and yet if you were to kill a young child, you would in fact have committed murder. youre going to have to do a lot better than this. if you need some clarification as to how important children were to Jesus in the Bible, simply read Matthew 18--He doesnt leave any room for ambiguity there.

So therefore, the following statement still solid

since you apparently love to ignore when such thoughts have already been addressed, perhaps you can review my last post to you, where I addressed God's glory....if all God wanted or needed was pure souls to enter heaven, He would not have created us with free will. He also would have just killed us all before we could grow into sinning adults, or He would have made us all obedient robots that didnt have the option to sin. thats the most basic part of the puzzle, and yet it is one that causes perhaps the most confusion among those who dont believe. God's glory comes from the forgiveness He gives us DESPITE our sinning, impure souls. Thats kinda the whole point, sport....

weird kinda question if a baby is made out of sin then isn't the child it's self a sin?

weird kinda question if a baby is made out of sin then isn't the child it's self a sin?

the child itself is not "a sin". The act is a sin, the person is not. Example--a man rapes a woman, and she gets pregnant as a result. The rape is a sin, how can that baby be punished for that act?

fair enough

but why should the woman be punished by being guilted in to have a child she never wanted though an horibble act of violence that will emotionally and physically scar her for life?

fair enough

but why should the woman be punished by being guilted in to have a child she never wanted though an horibble act of violence that will emotionally and physically scar her for life?

the only answer I can give is "life isnt fair", and i know that sounds really crappy, but what are ya gonna do? For example, child abuse victims, they have to live with their scars for the rest of their lives too, no? Crime victims? People who have experienced severe tragedy or trauma? Cancer patients? I guess the only thing we can say at that point is that we dont know the reason behind such things, but they ARE a part of this life. that much cannot be changed. And besides, do you really think that a rape victim wont be scarred for the rest of her life if she was forced into an abortion? Go talk to a woman who's had an abortion sometime--I have. no matter how certain they were at the time that it was the right choice, there isnt a single one I have EVER spoken to that hasnt spent a good amount of time wondering what that child would have become....

But there's another side to this too--the woman would then have a chance to take something good away from what is otherwise a really lousy deal. The fact is this--no one here knows what that child would/could become. By refusing to even take a chance, you wouldnt ever know what you were passing up on....finally, something that far too many people i have known just dont ever seem to understand is this--some of the best things in this life come out of hard situations. People generally try to run away from something when it's hard...my experience has taught me that when things are difficult, thats when something great can happen.

We can change this discussion to any number of other things....you can ask "what if the mother's life is at risk?", and i can offer a number of responses...like:

--childbirth is always a risky thing, there's always a chance of things going wrong. So, even introducing an abortion into the mix, there;s still the chance that all you did was kill the child while the mom ends up dying anyways. and then what would the father/husband have?? TWO funerals?

--When its your time to go, its your time, and as crappy as that might sound, its really true. We cannot cheat death from this life. and killing a helpless unborn child in order to try to save your own life is precisely the opposite of any mother's instinct I have ever heard of. As a dad, i would die for any of my children, I certainly wouldnt risk their lives for mine. Would you?

like i said, we could do this on and on, and I am certainly not telling you not to keep asking questions, i dont mind offering my thoughts in reply. But in the end, i cannot see any one thing that would make me change my mind about being 100% against abortion.

i am done arguing this because it goes no where, i have my opinons you have yours simple it is just one of those things.


and for YZF no he hasn't won or owned me, i don't need or want to go into detailes of what i believe about this

i am done arguing this because it goes no where, i have my opinons you have yours simple it is just one of those things.


and for YZF no he hasn't won or owned me, i don't need or want to go into detailes of what i believe about this

theres no need to be like that about it, I was definitely not trying to put you in your place or anything. thats why I said that i didnt mind answering your questions at all. And i respect your opinions, like you i have my reasons for the ones i have so i know what thats like. I wasnt even aware that this was being "argued" between you and me, i thought we were just discussing our individual opinions. Sorry if you saw it differently.

um, once more, I would really like to know exactly what the church you attended taught you.

I hope this helps:

North Shore Assembly of God‎

9779 Gross Point Rd
Skokie, IL 60076

(847) 677-0390

- northshoreassembly.com‎



You see, by that logic there, we would be justified in abortion....but by that same logic, we would be just as justified if we went around murdering young children. My youngest is not quite 2, our middle child is 3....and according to God, they are both too young to be held accountable for their actions. So, since their souls are still pure, how would it be any different, using your logic as you posted it there, if we killed 2-year olds as opposed to abortion? Face it, there's a massive hole in your logic there.

According to your "pure soul" theory, there would be no difference, and yet if you were to kill a young child, you would in fact have committed murder. you're going to have to do a lot better than this. if you need some clarification as to how important children were to Jesus in the Bible, simply read Matthew 18--He doesnt leave any room for ambiguity there.
/sigh
OK. I really could use your focus here.
I'm not sure where to use your word 'justification'. probably because the word isn't useful here. so we'll leave it out of our discussion. coolio dudio?

We cant 'murder' your child because god wont let us. Makes sense? Haven't you've heard that when god has planed for us to die, we die? It is common knowledge. With that same logic, the unborn kid was planned to die from god as well.

You cant murder your child. God wont let you. Nor can someone down the street can touch your child. God wont let them. Don't you see yet? We are all in gods plan. no human can disrupt that.

Now when our loving god's plan for a particular child is to die today, he'll carefully send somebody who can get the job done, likely a killer with a pedophile degree or a knowledge of a long vacuum tube, to take the sweet child's life. Apparently the bigger the drama the kid left behind, the faster the soul was delivered.

therefore, my logic is Godgic!

since you apparently love to ignore when such thoughts have already been addressed, perhaps you can review my last post to you, where I addressed God's glory....if all God wanted or needed was pure souls to enter heaven, He would not have created us with free will. He also would have just killed us all before we could grow into sinning adults, or He would have made us all obedient robots that didn't have the option to sin. thats the most basic part of the puzzle, and yet it is one that causes perhaps the most confusion among those who don't believe. God's glory comes from the forgiveness He gives us DESPITE our sinning, impure souls. Thats kinda the whole point, sport....

not sure where your confusing arises but I'm sure it was my fault. feel free to ask any questions. however, I believe god is not happy with our free choice progress. with all the sinners not properly readied for heaven, he is going about it in a different fashion that is undetected by either you or I.

that doesnt even deserve a detailed response, and you know it. we already covered free will, now youre just going backwards. not to mention, you keep changing your stance, before it was "God is glad with all the pure souls", and now youve turned that into "no one's a murderer because its in God's plan whenever someone dies".

let me know when you wish to discuss this seriously, and i will be happy to do so, but dont waste my time with this nonsense, please. I have been completely sincere with you and dont deserve anything less in return.

that doesnt even deserve a detailed response, and you know it. we already covered free will, now youre just going backwards. not to mention, you keep changing your stance, before it was "God is glad with all the pure souls", and now youve turned that into "no one's a murderer because its in God's plan whenever someone dies".

let me know when you wish to discuss this seriously, and i will be happy to do so, but dont waste my time with this nonsense, please. I have been completely sincere with you and dont deserve anything less in return.

chillax
look, the theme of my stance never changed. here it is:

GOD PLANNED FOR ALL DEATHS! NO ONE WILL GO TO HELL OVER IT!

THAT SHOULD COVER BOTH STANCES UNDER THIS ONE BANNER...."God is glad with all the pure souls", "no one's a murderer because its in God's plan whenever someone dies".

KK?THXBIENOW

chillax
look, the theme of my stance never changed. here it is:

GOD PLANNED FOR ALL DEATHS! NO ONE WILL GO TO HELL OVER IT!

THAT SHOULD COVER BOTH STANCES UNDER THIS ONE BANNER...."God is glad with all the pure souls", "no one's a murderer because its in God's plan whenever someone dies".

KK?THXBIENOW

so, what youre now trying to feed us in your latest stance is this--no one will go to hell because everything that happens is part of God's plan...yet God will be glad for all the pure souls that enter heaven? is that what youre trying to say now? because once again, theres this ginormous hole in your logic.....there isnt anything in existence that doesnt have its opposite. There is no up without a down, no left without a right, no back without a front.....but now you want us to believe that there's a heaven(for God to be glad about, that all these pure souls are going to....) but no hell(since everything is part of God's plan, there wouldnt be a hell if no one would go there)?? This is your latest attempt to understand the universe?

like I said, when you have something serious, be sure and let me know, and I would be glad to discuss it with you then. in the meantime, youre reaching, quite badly I might add, and it isnt working out too well for you.

In the end, the Bible is an all-or-nothing deal. You cannot treat it like a buffet, taking only the parts you like and ignoring the rest. either the whole Bible is truth or none of it is. And here you are, wanting to pick and choose which parts youre cool with and which parts are not real? sorry, no dice. youre going to have to do WAY better than that.

Exodus 21:22?

no, i wouldnt.

mark makes a lot of mistakes in the presentation IMO, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with having that much conviction in your beliefs. In fact, i would be worried more if my child had little or no conviction in their beliefs--faith by its very definition requires that conviction or it isnt worth anything.

i have come to realize that "yzf ********* as you call it is more widespread on this forum than you apparently care to admit. The only difference is which side of the God issue the players are on. Look at yzf, and then look at those who oppose him here. both sides there use the same insults, the same language, the same BS over and over again. at least mark knows what he believes in--I have yet to see even one person on this forum that's so certain that God isnt real, that has actually studied the bible and knows what it even says and means. that should speak volumes--when mark said he refused to read the Quran, everyone got on his case and bashed him, saying "how can you know its the wrong book when you dont even know what it says and means??"--but the funny thing is that same concept describes the doubters here to a T. we even have a guy who says "I was born again, this is the church i went to...." and yet he constantly makes mistake after mistake when he claims to post what the Bible says and means.

ignorance breeds ignorance....

Fantastic post. A+.

I'm not sure how that has any bearing on abortion. Clearly God is angered when the original command to "go forth and multiply" is obliterated by tearing a fetus to shreds in the womb, c'mon people...


If 2 men get in a scruff and a child in pregnancy is killed, there is no punishment concerning the lost child. Normally when someone is killed in anger, the killer is killed.

Now I'm not saying abortion is right. I believe it's wrong, however this verse is very interesting.

achild sacrifice, that's basically what abortion is....except the god is self

I never thought of it that way. Well put.

AH! Finally, questions! Now we are getting somewhere.


so, what youre now trying to feed us in your latest stance is this--no one will go to hell because everything that happens is part of God's plan...yet God will be glad for all the pure souls that enter heaven? is that what youre trying to say now? Guess what? You are guilty of taking something out of context and placed my words into a different scenario. Have you taken your medicine?

because once again, theres this ginormous hole in your logic.....there isnt anything in existence that doesnt have its opposite. There is no up without a down, no left without a right, no back without a front.....but now you want us to believe that there's a heaven(for God to be glad about, that all these pure souls are going to....) but no hell(since everything is part of God's plan, there wouldnt be a hell if no one would go there)?? nope, misconstrued. I never mentioned nor claim on this particular thread of no Hell.

This is your latest attempt to understand the universe? I’m not following you here. Is this a serious question because we are not talking about the universe now are we?

AH! Finally, questions! Now we are getting somewhere.


Guess what? You are guilty of taking something out of context and placed my words into a different scenario. Have you taken your medicine?

nope, misconstrued. I never mentioned nor claim on this particular thread of no Hell.

I’m not following you here. Is this a serious question because we are not talking about the universe now are we?


tell you what---let's put down the koolaid for a second, shall we?

i didnt misconstrue anything. read what I said again. you said that it was God's plan for those people to die when they did, so no one would go to Hell for their deaths, right? Well, all i did was apply your logic to all kinds of sin, since they ALL would likewise fall under the same "God's plan" according to the logic you posted back there. that isnt misconstruing anything on my part--its short-sightedness on yours.

If any one sin were to fall under the category of "planned to be this way by God" then why wouldnt all others?? do you mean to tell me that I was wrong for taking this that step further? If you truly believe that God could plan someone's death like that, then SURELY you can see how He would likewise plan rapes, burglaries, etc etc etc, since you have already claimed that we dont have free will that way--that it all is God's plan, right? Or are you now trying to backpedal out of this corner you put yourself in, by claiming that God only plans "murders" but not other sins?

SO....youve told us that these things are not in fact sins--that God planned them this way, so no one would "go to hell" over them. So, in that case, if that really were true, what purpose would there be to even have a hell if no one will be sent there for "sinning"?? This is what youre messing up, what you arent grasping--when you try to pick and choose which pieces of God make sense to you and which ones do not, you only end up lost in the end. its really amazing that when you get cornered by statements that YOU make, like this:

You cant murder your child. God wont let you. Nor can someone down the street can touch your child. God wont let them. Don't you see yet? We are all in gods plan. no human can disrupt that.

that you then want to throw shots out there like "take your meds" to someone else rather than admit where YOU took this conversation. in the end, according to you, none of this is even real anyways. So then, you sit here and try to claim that you never said there was no hell "on this particular thread"???

like I said, when you decide to have a mature, sincere conversation, let me know. until then, I can only pray that you take off the blinders and start being honest about things. "in this particular thread", even though you just claimed that one of the worst sins a man can do is in fact not a sin at all, but "God's plan"?

/conversation

You cant murder your child. God wont let you. Nor can someone down the street can touch your child. God wont let them. Don't you see yet? We are all in gods plan. no human can disrupt that.
.

Lets start here. This is what I was taught as a born again.

Why can't you murder your child or your neighbor's child right now? What is stopping you?

it is god

why isn't your neighbor over your house bending you over and killing your kids? what is stopping him?

it is god

when god is ready for you or your offsprings, god will take. do YOU believe God knows your future and your personal goals and hidden thoughts? do YOU believe God has a plan for you and for all Mankind?

And if you agree with the above, do YOU think that a human can disrupt God's plan for you?

I think the stress has finally gotten to czar. Guy is talking bat-shit crazy.

actually i don't think he is ark, for those that do believe in god what is the first thing they say when some is taken "before their time" they say "god has a plan for all of us" hell i don't believe in him yet i have been told many times by people that i was given the life i was given because god has a plan for me, even having a autistic son i was told "god must think you are able to handle it"

Welcome back, ark. jump right in whenever you feel froggy.

Yzf, do you think humankind can change god's plan?

Yzf, do you think humankind can change god's plan?

no

thank you for your answer. And it is true. i was too taught this at a born again centre.

actually i don't think he is ark, for those that do believe in god what is the first thing they say when some is taken "before their time" they say "god has a plan for all of us" hell i don't believe in him yet i have been told many times by people that i was given the life i was given because god has a plan for me, even having a autistic son i was told "god must think you are able to handle it"

That's not what he is saying. He's using the "god's plan" argument as justification for murder. Just because you don't believe in the Bible does not you have to be in agreement with everything that speaks against it.

That's not what he is saying. He's using the "god's plan" argument as justification for murder. Just because you don't believe in the Bible does not you have to be in agreement with everything that speaks against it.

you jumped too soon. misty is correct. so be patient

you jumped too soon. misty is correct. so be patient

What is a hollow statement, Alec? Thanks, but we've all seen this from you before buddy. Nothing new here.

ok. laters :wave:

Lets start here. This is what I was taught as a born again.

Why can't you murder your child or your neighbor's child right now? What is stopping you?

it is god

why isn't your neighbor over your house bending you over and killing your kids? what is stopping him?

it is god

when god is ready for you or your offsprings, god will take. do YOU believe God knows your future and your personal goals and hidden thoughts? do YOU believe God has a plan for you and for all Mankind?

And if you agree with the above, do YOU think that a human can disrupt God's plan for you?

there's a mighty big difference between knowing what choices a person will make and making those choices for him. The whole concept of God simply cannot work without free will being intact. Yes, God has a plan, and Yes, God knows how each of us will choose in our lives. but NO, God does NOT decide for us how we will choose. Simple logic would demand that if God were making that decision, it would only be obvious that everyone would be saved and no one would be in sin! God's plan does not include everyone doing the right thing....God's plan is simply this--follow Him and you will see eternal life. Dont follow Him and you will see hell. THAT is the basic rundown.

Sorry to tell you this, but I believe you were taught wrong. The way you described it takes free will completely off the table. if a person cannot make a choice between doing right and doing wrong because God "wont let them", then we would all be nothing but robots, and your whole contention that God doesnt exist would have to be wrong anyways. The atheist point of view cannot survive at all in that scenario, so which is it? you either believe that God is real, or you do not.

The real glory for God doesnt come because we are physically blocked from killing our neighbor--it comes in the fact that someone can do just that and still be forgiven by God's grace. otherwise, why seek forgiveness for anything if you think this is all God's plan at work? Like I said, your claims here simply do not work, they dont add up, they are actually quite illogical.

there's a mighty big difference between knowing what choices a person will make and making those choices for him. The whole concept of God simply cannot work without free will being intact. Yes, God has a plan, and Yes, God knows how each of us will choose in our lives. but NO, God does NOT decide for us how we will choose. Simple logic would demand that if God were making that decision, it would only be obvious that everyone would be saved and no one would be in sin! God's plan does not include everyone doing the right thing....God's plan is simply this--follow Him and you will see eternal life. Dont follow Him and you will see hell. THAT is the basic rundown.

Sorry to tell you this, but I believe you were taught wrong. The way you described it takes free will completely off the table. if a person cannot make a choice between doing right and doing wrong because God "wont let them", then we would all be nothing but robots, and your whole contention that God doesnt exist would have to be wrong anyways. The atheist point of view cannot survive at all in that scenario, so which is it? you either believe that God is real, or you do not.

The real glory for God doesnt come because we are physically blocked from killing our neighbor--it comes in the fact that someone can do just that and still be forgiven by God's grace. otherwise, why seek forgiveness for anything if you think this is all God's plan at work? Like I said, your claims here simply do not work, they dont add up, they are actually quite illogical.

funny, i don't feel any sorrow or anger after being taught wrong from a born again church. regarding bonefide education of Jesus Christ teachings however, you cant do that much better than an assembly of god church. and apparently their teaching has been verified even on the other side of the world; misty reports of the same teachings.

This is the same stuff you learned.

when you told me my logic has a big hole, i was really using 'born again' logic. I agree. it has a rather large hole.

There is no god, sir. thanks for participating.

Simple, its a womans choice
Personally, if it was risking the mothers health, or had something severely to do with a child, then I see it as being justified.

But if you had sex, and dont want the responsibility of raising a child, then no.. that crap is ridiculous. You do the deed, deal with the responsibility, or dont have sex at all.

it ain't my child. it ain't my life, so......

if you had sex, and don't want the responsibility of raising a child, then fuck yeah. kill it. i don't want to pay any more of your Medicare or food stamps. thx.

I think abortion is far too personal a choice to be decided by law. I personally am against abortion, but I think everyone has the right to choose what happens to their body. I don't like the idea of abortion being used as birth control, and I really think more research needs to be done into male contraceptives... There was an article about it in Popular Science, I'll have to hunt down a link.

Any argument using religion as a foundation is irrelevant: The Bible is not the law of the land, and the First Amendment guarantees that everyone has the right to choose their own religion, therefore you can't base a law on religious principle. I wrote a four page paper on separation of church and state if anyone wants to debate it.

some things need to be clarified for stubborn people who are easily offended with this process. So the law offers protection from them in exchange that the mother has to use the window of opportunity to do this in a safe/discreet manner, for all parties involved.

the law is useful here

then again, some things are more important than the "law of the land". But why should that matter, right guys?? someone mentioned the first amendment--but that would NEVER have existed if those people back then didnt believe that their religion and faith was more important than the law of the land...they had just come from a land where their faith and beliefs were forced to take a back seat to the law of the land! Its also funny when you think of the fact that many of the standards that the "law of the land" sets for society follow along the basic guidelines of the Bible--and it was not always that way. Why the change, if the concepts were really not important?

You start off calling upon the 1st amendment, which was based completely on religious principle when it was written. and then you say "you can't base a law on religious principle" in the very next breath. They wrote that law because they were not allowed in Europe to practice their own faith--go check up on the protestant movement sometime and get back to us about it.

not only that, but this was not a poll about whether or not the LAW governing abortion was wrong. it was a poll about what we BELIEVE concerning abortion itself. No one here is saying that the bible is the law of the land, but we were not even talking about the law. we were talking about morality...

i just dont understand why some of you have such a problem with people who choose to hold themselves to a higher standard than the "law of the land". At no time in this whole thread did I EVER try to force my beliefs onto anyone else, or insult someone for their saying that they agreed with the right to choose. I kept the whole issue to what I believed, not what I expect all of you to believe. And in return, even you Kevin--a moderator here--think you have the right to get on "religion" in this issue. I didnt see anyone trying to tell you how you should think....or that your belief is irrelevant. Isnt that the same kind of crap you have spent years getting all over yzf for telling others?

congratulations, youre now doing the same thing yourself.

then again, some things are more important than the "law of the land". But why should that matter, right guys?? someone mentioned the first amendment--but that would NEVER have existed if those people back then didnt believe that their religion and faith was more important than the law of the land...they had just come from a land where their faith and beliefs were forced to take a back seat to the law of the land! Its also funny when you think of the fact that many of the standards that the "law of the land" sets for society follow along the basic guidelines of the Bible--and it was not always that way. Why the change, if the concepts were really not important?

I would argue that it was their freedom to think and express themselves was more important than their religion and faith.

I would argue that it was their freedom to think and express themselves was more important than their religion and faith.

um, it was their freedom to practice the religion they wanted to, not just to think for themselves. from the time of the first settlements, there were all kinds of different religious faiths and beliefs represented--puritans, quakers, menonites, reformed, baptist, catholic, protestant, lutheran, the list goes on and on. Especially in England, the catholic church was the one "accepted" church, and as such there were a lot of issues regarding religion. by the time the revolutionary war ended, there was a major resurgence in religions in america, which is exactly where the first amendment came from in the first place.

read this link:

http://www.rsiss.net/religinamerica/bkcolonialamca.html

or maybe you would like this one better....

http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/16071783/religion.htm

or perhaps this one....

http://www.promotega.org/csu30025/religion.htm

or this one:

http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/ushistory/13colonieschurch.htm

the point is simply this--youre guessing, and history doesnt share your opinion on the matter. The issue of religion actually was so important to the colonies that it largely shaped where the settlers ended up when they came here. I would say that the evidence is more than clear as to what was important to the settlers back then.

wow i so disagree. in honor of the late yzf, lets get back on topic

apples and oranges, that's an accident, this is intentional, pre-meditated

So by having an abortion a women is condemned to the fiery pits of hell for eternity? Or is the doctor? Or both?


How about soldiers who fight for our country so religous crazed fanatics dont fly airplanes into our buildings or bomb targets or release nuclear/chemical weapons to the public and kill thousands upon thousands of citizens? They commit pre-meditated murder on a daily basis. What is their fate?





I feel abortion has its place in society and it damn sure isnt birth control. You will always have people arguing the morality of it but I dont think its right to have to tell a little girl, "Sorry you gotta carry daddy's incest baby to term.". "Oh and have fun explaining this to your friends at school."

Or how about "Sorry but you have a 75% chance of death if you give birth to this child but you have to keep it to full term and take that risk.".


Maybe even, "Your child will be born with horrible genetic defects that caused its organs not to develop correctly and will most likely die a painful death within the first 6 months. Enjoy!".

thankyou rev, sombody gets "it"

omg REV brings it!!!! i totally agree with revrex

how about fixing my poll counter dickhead

thankyou rev, sombody gets "it"

actually, he doesnt get "it" at all.

anyone here who has had a child knows that when you decide to have a baby that one of the possibilities is that the mother may die. we also know that birth defects, or the child not surviving, is also one of the possibilities. misty, youre a mom, right? you have kids? tell me ONE situation where you would rather have your child die so you could live. give me just one.....While i am not a mom, i am a dad, and i would NEVER want one of my kids to die so I could live instead. What parent in their right mind would? We hear so much about the mother's instinct to protect their child, and yet that gets thrown right out the window for abortion?? Sorry, I'm not buying that at any price, thats frankly a load of crap.

Here's a thought--if you dont want to handle the possibility of losing your life or your child's during childbirth, then dont have kids. as for 'medical certainty', thats also a load of crap, i personally know a couple who have three children. With their youngest daughter, the mom started bleeding in the second trimester. the doctors told her that this baby would not live--they wanted to terminate the pregnancy. she refused. She was told of all sorts of birth defects this child would 'certainly' have.....The child was born 'normal' and is 100% healthy, thanks to 'medical certainties'. The mom bled throughout the entire rest of the pregnancy on and off....and the closer they got to the due date the worse the doctor's 'medical certainty' became. So much for that one, huh? Their little girl plays with my kids all the time. Perfectly healthy, and if they had listened to the doctors, they would have killed a completely healthy child!

It is simply ridiculous the way people try to avoid pain and death in this life. The truth is you cannot avoid either one. I am all for trying to minimize pain, but NOT at the expense of another life. Pain is a part of life, plain and simple. And the way I see it, if the doctor comes to me and says "there's a good chance your child will die", well, thats still better odds than the zero chance the child has of living through an abortion.

So by having an abortion a women is condemned to the fiery pits of hell for eternity? Or is the doctor? Or both?

you guys simply do not understand the way things work. EVERYONE sins....if that was an automatic way to hell, then no one would be saved. The fact is this--repentance wipes out sin through the grace of God. you could do anything, and repent, and in God's eyes it is wiped clean. Instead of focusing on the sin, why not focus on the repentance?

I already asked this, and no one seems to have an answer, so I will ask again--find me ONE woman who has had an abortion and doesnt ask herself every friggin day what things would have been like if she didnt. If it was so acceptable and so right to do this, then why is it that everyone who does it spends their life questioning the decision afterwards? I have yet to meet even one woman who has had an abortion that doesnt question it for the rest of their lives so far....not even one. We're talking about taking a life, without even giving that life a chance!

you guys simply do not understand the way things work. EVERYONE sins....if that was an automatic way to hell, then no one would be saved. The fact is this--repentance wipes out sin through the grace of God. you could do anything, and repent, and in God's eyes it is wiped clean. Instead of focusing on the sin, why not focus on the repentance?

I already asked this, and no one seems to have an answer, so I will ask again--find me ONE woman who has had an abortion and doesnt ask herself every friggin day what things would have been like if she didnt. If it was so acceptable and so right to do this, then why is it that everyone who does it spends their life questioning the decision afterwards? I have yet to meet even one woman who has had an abortion that doesnt question it for the rest of their lives so far....not even one. We're talking about taking a life, without even giving that life a chance!

poor argument
remorse is a typical human emotion. how is that tied into god? but no, why would a woman not feel remorse after killing her kid? but i guess what got her to make a decision like that is irrelevant, huh? (see Sophie's Choice)

but since all ya have to do is say 'I'm sorry' to god, ya good to go to heaven. so maybe you need to hang around the clinics and let them know that they need to ask for forgiveness. should take 5 minutes and drama will cease. i believe now that all abortion clinics should be housed in Christian churches. one last stop before going out the door is to pray for forgiveness (Laffable). good show, xtains. yay god team :blah:

first off, you need to follow the rules here, chief. at no time did i make any insulting comments towards atheists, so give it a rest. if you cannot follow the very simple rules of this section, then dont post here.

second, there is not one thing you or anyone else on your side of this discussion has said--not one thing at all--that explains why you think that people have the right to value one life more than another. That is something that you simply cannot get around--we do not have that authority. there is nothing that says a mother's life is worth more than the child's. And to make that decision is to try to 'play God' in my book.

its really funny how I ask questions that you guys not only cannot answer, but then when the replies are nothing but mocking insults, that speaks volumes right there about how legitimate your position is. "of course the mother will feel remorse"???? DO TELL, what is the purpose of remorse? Why would someone feel guilty?? Couldnt POSSIBLY be because they know they did something WRONG, now could it??

Once more, what about the parent's instinct to be parents? When a mother doesnt have the instinct to save her child in this instance, why would that be any different than when Susan Smith didnt have that instinct, and so she rolled her car into the lake with her kids strapped into their car seats, still inside? Face it, you have tried all sorts of arguments in this thread. you have not come out on top with any of them. First, "no murderer goes to hell', then 'God is glad when people kill little kids', and now 'of course a mom will feel remorse after she's done something that i claim theres nothing wrong in doing...'


and then, you come with the insults. might I suggest that you grow up a little bit....because your mocking doesnt do anything to improve upon your failing position in this discussion.

Good day, and be blessed.

Originally Posted by skydivr7673
and then, you come with the insults. might I suggest that you grow up a little bit....because your mocking doesnt do anything to improve upon your failing position in this discussion.

Good day, and be blessed.

thanks for proving my point. its funny, yzf gets banned for making comments like that to others....
/thread

/laff
correction, yzf gets banned for flagrant personal attacks.

Religion and all of its components shall not hide here. And all mocking can be brought up to God himself. After all, he is beyond man enough to write to the mods if it really bothered him. kapeash?

Come make fun of me and my atheism. See if I cry. but between religion and atheism, silliness is one of a few distinct items that religion harbors and atheism don't. It would be a sin if no one had the guts to point out the true silliness of the bible. If I didn't, how would you ever learn how dumb the stuff you believe in are?

grow some

/laff
correction, yzf gets banned for flagrant personal attacks.

Religion and all of its components shall not hide here. And all mocking can be brought up to God himself. After all, he is beyond man enough to write to the mods if it really bothered him. kapeash?



no one "cried", chief, all I did was point out that you need to follow the rules. i have done nothing but respect you, you could at least be man enough to do the same instead of insult me and claim that i have no common sense. In case you didnt understand that, it was in fact an insulting comment directed at me personally, which makes it against the forum rules, no?

no one cried, no one reported it, nothing of the sort--I gave you the respect of thinking that if I spoke to you like a man you would show the same respect in reply. thanks for showing me that youre not capable of doing so.

Come make fun of me and my atheism. See if I cry. but between religion and atheism, silliness is one of a few distinct items that religion harbors and atheism don't. It would be a sin if no one had the guts to point out the true silliness of the bible. If I didn't, how would you ever learn how dumb the stuff you believe in are?

grow some

The entire concept of sin is a biblical one--so if the Bible wasnt real, then neither would sin be real. And that would take care of that whole point of view you just tried to bestow upon me.

In addition to that, insulting someone here is against the rules. Disrespecting their religion is also against the rules. Telling someone that what they believe in is "dumb" is exactly that, so stop making excuses and at least be man enough to admit when youve screwed that much up.

Good day, and be blessed.

you don't get it at all sky, i wont go into to details because frankly it's not of your buisness, but there are times where it is better to have an abortion rather than go full term

what argument doesn't hold any water, is it a woman's choice to execute her newborn? what's the difference?

she wont be coming back. i thought she was you and I gave her shit all day.

you don't get it at all sky, i wont go into to details because frankly it's not of your buisness, but there are times where it is better to have an abortion rather than go full term

/thread
/win
/ok folks, gtfo

no one "cried", chief, all I did was point out that you need to follow the rules. i have done nothing but respect you, you could at least be man enough to do the same instead of insult me and claim that i have no common sense. In case you didnt understand that, it was in fact an insulting comment directed at me personally, which makes it against the forum rules, no?

no one cried, no one reported it, nothing of the sort--I gave you the respect of thinking that if I spoke to you like a man you would show the same respect in reply. thanks for showing me that youre not capable of doing so.


The entire concept of sin is a biblical one--so if the Bible wasnt real, then neither would sin be real. And that would take care of that whole point of view you just tried to bestow upon me.

In addition to that, insulting someone here is against the rules. Disrespecting their religion is also against the rules. Telling someone that what they believe in is "dumb" is exactly that, so stop making excuses and at least be man enough to admit when youve screwed that much up.

Good day, and be blessed.

i don't feel sorry for you because i feel you are a capable person. therefore, with all the things you are asking from me, i will not do. but since we are friends, i can say you are an awesome person personally and i hope you never change. now stfu

you don't get it at all sky, i wont go into to details because frankly it's not of your buisness, but there are times where it is better to have an abortion rather than go full term



better for whom??? I guess the perspective is what youre missing here. you cannot possibly say with any certainty what the baby would want, no matter what, so you are nowhere near qualified to make that determination. better for the mother?? sadly, the mom isnt the only one involved. better for both parents? That still leaves out one very important consideration--the life youre getting rid of. If I were that baby, you can damn well bet that i would want every chance at life, just like i do today. who are we that we think we can decide any better for another life like that? I have had people tell me 'what if the baby would die in 6 months? would you want that baby to be in pain like that???" My answer is NO, of course I wouldnt want a child to suffer. but THAT IS LIFE SOMETIMES--my cancer has caused me to suffer a lot longer than 6 months, and I did nearly die from it--but I was born healthy. my point there is this--you never know what tomorrow would bring for that life. incredible suffering CAN be overcome, and often is, even despite what the best "medical experts" say. that is an undeniable fact.

I dont expect you to believe as I do, but i have the same right to state what i believe as you do. and with all due respect to you and whatever situation you have experienced, I disagree completely. and without trying to pry, I will pray that you find peace. whatever you have gone through, it sounds like there is still a lot of hurting there, and in all sincerity I hope you find peace in that issue. Seriously, please dont take that as an insult because it isnt one.

do you think a child would want to be born serverly deformed only to die within a matter of months/weeks or even days, do you think a child would want to be born with severe retardaion and or be a vegetable???

You start off calling upon the 1st amendment, which was based completely on religious principle when it was written. and then you say "you can't base a law on religious principle" in the very next breath. They wrote that law because they were not allowed in Europe to practice their own faith--go check up on the protestant movement sometime and get back to us about it.

Actually, if you read the actual language of the amendment and don't worry about the politics of the movement behind it, the language is all that matters:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, that guarantees the founders of this country to practice the religion they were denied in merry old England... But it also guarantees peoples rights now to practice any religion (or lack of religion) they want. And, in doing so, the government has in essence forbid itself from enacting laws based on one religion that would be unfair to people who aren't members of said religion.

not only that, but this was not a poll about whether or not the LAW governing abortion was wrong. it was a poll about what we BELIEVE concerning abortion itself. No one here is saying that the bible is the law of the land, but we were not even talking about the law. we were talking about morality...

And I put up that argument in response to Mark's proclamation of "Abortion is a sin, life begins at conception, there is no argument", which is purely a faith based statement. Faith has no place in our laws, because the First Amendment guarantees the rights of everyone to practice their own faith. And, what I believe is what I posted, so there you go.

i just dont understand why some of you have such a problem with people who choose to hold themselves to a higher standard than the "law of the land".

And again, I choose to hold myself to a higher standard as well: I would never want my wife to have an abortion, and you all know how much I love my kids. But notice two words in both your and my statements: Choose and themselves. Thus proving my point that it is such a personal belief, there really shouldn't be a law, other than a law guaranteeing that right to choose. Here's the great thing about the right to choose: You can choose to have an abortion, or you can choose not to have an abortion just as easily. Abortion is legal now, and it's not like there are long lines out the doors for people to run and get an abortion. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. People don't deliberately go out and say, "Fuck yeah! It's Friday night! I'm gonna go, get knocked up, and get that baby aborted on Monday!" Generally, abortion is the only smart decision that woman is making. Maybe she's in no position to raise the child. Maybe she was a drunk imbecile getting knocked up. Maybe she already has 4 kids the state has taken away because she's an idiot. Who knows? But, because the circumstances behind every abortion is unique, you can't have a broad law applied to "deny these, but those are ok." If you make abortion illegal, all that's going to do is make people find alternative ways to do it, and that's going to cause more harm than good.

At no time in this whole thread did I EVER try to force my beliefs onto anyone else, or insult someone for their saying that they agreed with the right to choose. I kept the whole issue to what I believed, not what I expect all of you to believe. And in return, even you Kevin--a moderator here--think you have the right to get on "religion" in this issue. I didnt see anyone trying to tell you how you should think....or that your belief is irrelevant. Isnt that the same kind of crap you have spent years getting all over yzf for telling others?

congratulations, youre now doing the same thing yourself.

Get off your high horse there, Jon. I didn't direct a single comment towards you. Mark started in with the whole "it's a sin" thing, and I responded. Don't believe me? Here's the quote:

I'm against abortion...it's murder of the innocent, period, end of story, no exceptions, there is no argument here: life begins at conception...put the kid up for adoption if he or she is not wanted, they could be the next president of the U.S. for all you know (or the next Billy Graham)

I'm pro birth control, of course...

And here's the very next post:

note how God reacts to the sacrifice of children in OT times

Jeremiah 32

But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

there isn't even the slightest question in my mind God has the same level of contempt for those who murder the unborn!

What, did you miss those? And, third: This poll was started in The Religion Forum. Want to keep it strictly personal or political? Then the thread shouldn't be in the Religion section.

you need to read this
http://www.tgm.org/mythofseparation.html

Yeah, because the "Tim Greenwood Ministries" is such an unbiased source.

Mark, please... For the millionth time: Give me HARD FACTS. Don't give me twisted creationist websites. HARD FACTS.

Especially not for someone so blatantly money driven!

https://ssl4.westserver.net/tgm.org/forms/Form_donate.php

Dude, I'm not going to just click your link. I'm going to go all over the website. If that guy isn't milking Jesus' followers for money, then who is?

lol if I didnt have a consience I would become a preacher/minister. Guy named Buddy Tipton here in Vero drives a new Vette and an SS/T and live in a fucking sweet home. God has blessed him very well. In the same breath his church looks like it needs some work, wonder why they havent done any yet? :rolleyes

lol if I didnt have a consience I would become a preacher/minister. Guy named Buddy Tipton here in Vero drives a new Vette and an SS/T and live in a fucking sweet home. God has blessed him very well. In the same breath his church looks like it needs some work, wonder why they havent done any yet? :rolleyes

Did you look at the guy from Mark's link? If he isn't living phat, then nobody is. The big poofy hair... He reminds me of the minister that Wayne "Danke Shoen" Newton played in "License to Kill" with Timothy Dalton... The minister that was really a front for the cocaine distributor. Remember that one?

oh for clarification purposes, it's still none of anyones buisness, but i have NOT had an abortion

Yes, that guarantees the founders of this country to practice the religion they were denied in merry old England... But it also guarantees peoples rights now to practice any religion (or lack of religion) they want. And, in doing so, the government has in essence forbid itself from enacting laws based on one religion that would be unfair to people who aren't members of said religion.


Of course, youre absolutely right, Kevin--it would be SO UNFAIR if we told people that they couldnt murder their own unborn children....I see EXACTLY what you mean.

its really sick--we live in a country where its perfectly legal to kill your unborn child without that child's consent, but its 100% illegal to assist a grown adult when that adult MAKES THE CHOICE to end their own life. yeah, that sure makes a ton of sense....

And I put up that argument in response to Mark's proclamation of "Abortion is a sin, life begins at conception, there is no argument", which is purely a faith based statement. Faith has no place in our laws, because the First Amendment guarantees the rights of everyone to practice their own faith. And, what I believe is what I posted, so there you go.

and again, this is the religion section, where faith SHOULD be the driving force behind a post. if you want to talk about the legality of abortion and go at it from the law point of view, we have a politics section already. I just love how people demand separation of church and state, but then when it comes to these issues, they intermix the two all by themselves.

And again, I choose to hold myself to a higher standard as well: I would never want my wife to have an abortion, and you all know how much I love my kids. But notice two words in both your and my statements: Choose and themselves.

Sure, I can understand where youre coming from. But tell me one thing--how many of these children, if given the choice, would rather die than have a shot at living? How can the "pro-choice" crowd march around and shout CHOICE to the mountaintops, when at the exact same time their preference TAKES THE CHOICE AWAY FROM THE LIFE IN QUESTION?? How 'pro-choice' can one really be if the only choice they are interested in is THEIR OWN?

Abortion is legal now, and it's not like there are long lines out the doors for people to run and get an abortion. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion. People don't deliberately go out and say, "Fuck yeah! It's Friday night! I'm gonna go, get knocked up, and get that baby aborted on Monday!"

is the child in question any less dead or any less deprived of the right to choose for themselves because it wasnt planned months in advance???? Take a look at what you are saying--if i planned a murder last week or this morning, arent I just as guilty of first-degree murder either way?? There doesnt need to be a line around the block for that child to be just as deprived and just as killed.

Generally, abortion is the only smart decision that woman is making.

you'd be surprised at how many people in this world will never grow up unless something in their life forces them to--like becoming a parent, for example. Sure, it makes for a rough start, but we all have to grow up sometime, and when abortion is used to "fix a mistake" like that, i take special exception because a child is NEVER A MISTAKE.

I have a brother who's 37 and cant even groom/bathe himself like an adult. Smart as a whip, damn near a genius, but he cant keep a job for anything, and lives off of anyone he can. And every time he got into a tight spot in life, someone was always there to bail him out. So, the only thing he learned was that he never had to take any responsibility--in the example you just gave, thats all I see happening.

Maybe she's in no position to raise the child. Maybe she was a drunk imbecile getting knocked up.

If ever there was an absolutely horrible reason for killing a human life, youre listing them out in spades there. being poor, being immature, or being drunk--in no way should any of those things deprive that child from the right to a shot at life. Thats beyond sad that anyone could even argue something from that point of view, to be honest. I would have more understanding if it were a medical situation than a stupidity one.

But, because the circumstances behind every abortion is unique, you can't have a broad law applied to "deny these, but those are ok." If you make abortion illegal, all that's going to do is make people find alternative ways to do it, and that's going to cause more harm than good.

and again, we have a law in this country against assisted suicide, dont we?? it's an "across the board" law, and none of you are complaining about that? it takes away EVERYONE'S right to choose to end their life no matter the circumstances, and I dont see anyone complaining there! Why not?? in that case at least, we're talking about a grown adult making a choice for themselves--in abortion, we're talking about someone choosing to kill off another life! And no one complains there! Well, no one except for Dr. Kevorkian, that is...

But hey, pro-choice apparently only becomes an issue when it comes to people choosing to erase a "mistake", sorry, i mean a child's life. Like I said, when we talk of 'pro-choice', who's choice are we worried about?? OUR OWN, that's it.



Get off your high horse there, Jon. I didn't direct a single comment towards you. Mark started in with the whole "it's a sin" thing, and I responded.

dude, get over yourself, this isnt about being on any high horse. My point is this--everyone loves to complain about 'religious comments' in this kind of topic--until they make their own such comment. I was not saying that you shouldnt make such a response, nor was i saying that mark didnt say what he said. I certainly didnt 'miss' anything, I just fail to see why anyone thinks they have the right to make religious comments and then complain when someone else makes one. Thats ALL I was getting at. seems to me that if anyone "missed" the point there, it was you, not me. We are in a section where YOU YOURSELF made a rule that ALL religions are to be respected....and then we've got people telling others that 'what they believe is dumb', 'they have no common sense at all', and 'there is no god'......and YOURE worried about ME being on MY "high horse"?

I think its about high time that you all start being honest as to whats really happening here. Even when people insulted me and my beliefs, i did not respond with insults myself, and I'll be DAMNED if you think I am gonna sit here quietly while you watch people breaking YOUR rules at will, and then you tell ME to get off MY high horse. Like I said, I kept this whole thing strictly to what I believe, and did not insult one person for what they believe. If you cannot enforce your own rules, then dont even THINK of telling me anything about my posts that didnt break anything.

If that isnt reasonable, then nothing is.


Want to keep it strictly personal or political? Then the thread shouldn't be in the Religion section.

Well, let's see now--hasnt it been my position all along that this thread was not asking about the legal aspect, but the morality?? Its funny that youre directing this comment to me when I have been saying that same thing all along. Everyone else is saying "but its legal, but its legal" and you post this comment to ME?

At this point, I am not sure what thread youre even reading, Kevin....

oh for clarification purposes, it's still none of anyones buisness, but i have NOT had an abortion

hey, understood. Speaking for myself, no judgment at all. you have your reasons just as i have mine, fair enough. I hope I didnt come across any differently in my other post to you.

Well this was explained to me by my aunt, who is Jewish....I had to find something on the internet about this just to post. She explained that life does not begin until the baby exiting out of the birth canal, under jewish law....


http://www.jewfaq.org/birth.htm

"In Jewish law, although the human soul exists before birth, human life begins at birth, that is, at the time when the child is more than halfway emerged from the mother's body. For more details about the consequences of this doctrine, see Abortion. "

" Abortion

Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. "


Now I'm not saying that I agree with this, just thought it was interesting.

Of course, youre absolutely right, Kevin--it would be SO UNFAIR if we told people that they couldnt murder their own unborn children....I see EXACTLY what you mean.

And, again, we're defining something as a child when it isn't. Is a fetus alive? Yes. Can a fetus born naturally at one month old survive outside it's mother? No.

Look, I think abortion is pointless, stupid, etc. I don't like it, and I wish it didn't happen. However, there has got to be something done to make unwanted pregnancies not possible before you can eliminate abortion. There are already too many kids in foster homes. There are already too many kids up for adoption. Has anyone here tried to adopt a child in this country? My wife went to Russia to adopt Lily. Why? It was easier to fly to Russia, Siberia specifically, twice and deal with Moscow courts from here in the US than it was to adopt a child here. And guess what? Most of the kids up for adoption here have so many fucking issues, you don't even know where to start to deal with them. So, nobody wants them to begin with, and then nobody wants to adopt them, either. It's a horrible, terrible cycle, and I honestly don't know what's worse: Abortion, or the fucking wringer these poor, innocent kids get run through.

its really sick--we live in a country where its perfectly legal to kill your unborn child without that child's consent, but its 100% illegal to assist a grown adult when that adult MAKES THE CHOICE to end their own life. yeah, that sure makes a ton of sense....

And I agree with you. I absolutely think assisted suicide should be allowed. I don't understand why it's not, and I think your argument is 100% dead on.

and again, this is the religion section, where faith SHOULD be the driving force behind a post. if you want to talk about the legality of abortion and go at it from the law point of view, we have a politics section already. I just love how people demand separation of church and state, but then when it comes to these issues, they intermix the two all by themselves.

Except that my argument was simply to say it needs to be kept separate. NO religious beliefs should enter into the legal system, because someone is always going to feel it's unfair, and justice is supposed to be fair. Follow me?

Sure, I can understand where youre coming from. But tell me one thing--how many of these children, if given the choice, would rather die than have a shot at living?

I see what you're saying, and I understand where you're coming from. But, how many of them would really want to be born into a home where they aren't wanted, aren't loved, and might be abused horribly?

How can the "pro-choice" crowd march around and shout CHOICE to the mountaintops, when at the exact same time their preference TAKES THE CHOICE AWAY FROM THE LIFE IN QUESTION?? How 'pro-choice' can one really be if the only choice they are interested in is THEIR OWN?

And how can the Pro-Life crowd shout that every life is sacred and should be spared, when they don't care where or how that life will have to be lived? All they care about is that the child is born, but after that, they don't care what happens. Anyone who is shouting "make abortion legal" needs to get in line and start adopting some of these unwanted children. Seriously.

you'd be surprised at how many people in this world will never grow up unless something in their life forces them to--like becoming a parent, for example.

And the parents that kill their children with "shaking baby ********* or abuse or neglect?? That's a steep, steep learning curve, my friend, and it's the CHILD that will pay for it. Sure, the parent might grow up, but on the other hand, they might be too goddamn selfish and psychotic to be able to handle it. That's why it's so tough: Life isn't a TV show or a Hollywood happy ending... Go work at a hospital sometime and see some of the sick, twisted things people do to their little boy or girl... It's disgusting what parents can do to their kids. Most people like you and me know that a child is a responsibility... I'd lay down and die for my kids, and you all know it. But some people just don't get it. That's why I have said in other threads on these types of discussion that depo shots should be mandatory for welfare recipients, people should have to get a license to have kids, etc. Making abortion illegal and leaving these kids to hopefully be ok in a situation where they aren't wanted is no better than abortion. Really.

I
and again, we have a law in this country against assisted suicide, dont we?? it's an "across the board" law, and none of you are complaining about that?

We don't have a thread about it, otherwise I would be.

It takes away EVERYONE'S right to choose to end their life no matter the circumstances, and I dont see anyone complaining there! Why not?? in that case at least, we're talking about a grown adult making a choice for themselves--in abortion, we're talking about someone choosing to kill off another life! And no one complains there! Well, no one except for Dr. Kevorkian, that is...

Actually, people can end their lives any way they want, it's just illegal for it to be assisted by a physician so it's not a bloody, nasty, dangerous mess. And yeah, it makes zero fucking sense. We're in complete agreement there.

I think its about high time that you all start being honest as to whats really happening here. Even when people insulted me and my beliefs, i did not respond with insults myself, and I'll be DAMNED if you think I am gonna sit here quietly while you watch people breaking YOUR rules at will, and then you tell ME to get off MY high horse.

Actually, I didn't see anyone insulting you. I can go back and look and remove the offending posts.

Actually, I didn't see anyone insulting you. I can go back and look and remove the offending posts.

:asshole:

:asshole:

You don't count because no one reads what you post.

:asshole:

Hey, in this economy, I can't afford to lose this job and it's benefits. :D

You don't count because no one reads what you post.

And that's precisely why I missed them. :)

Seriously though, I'm annoyed with how abortion became all entangled up in the Women's Rights movement. I can't help but think people fight this issue more out of principle than they do for the lives/potential lives that are at stake.

Seriously though, I'm annoyed with how abortion became all entangled up in the Women's Rights movement. I can't help but think people fight this issue more out of principle than they do for the lives/potential lives that are at stake.

I think the Women's Rights movement is so full of double standards, they don't know which fucking way is up.

Hey, in this economy, I can't afford to lose this job and it's benefits. :D



And that's precisely why I missed them. :)



lol ok i can live with that

I think the Women's Rights movement is so full of double standards, they don't know which fucking way is up.

They view it as a buffet.

"hmmmm... let's see here, 'equal pay for equal work,' I'll take that. Pay for the movie on the first date? Nah, that's icky."

you say something czar?

are you insulting me? cuz i feel like crying

And, again, we're defining something as a child when it isn't. Is a fetus alive? Yes. Can a fetus born naturally at one month old survive outside it's mother? No.

but left alone, wont the overwhelming majority of those fetuses become a child? youre still talking about depriving this life the right to live, period. it isnt like they will all die off anyways if left alone, and even then, we dont have the power to know if a child with complications will survive or not....


Look, I think abortion is pointless, stupid, etc. I don't like it, and I wish it didn't happen. However, there has got to be something done to make unwanted pregnancies not possible before you can eliminate abortion. There are already too many kids in foster homes. There are already too many kids up for adoption. Has anyone here tried to adopt a child in this country? My wife went to Russia to adopt Lily. Why? It was easier to fly to Russia, Siberia specifically, twice and deal with Moscow courts from here in the US than it was to adopt a child here. And guess what? Most of the kids up for adoption here have so many fucking issues, you don't even know where to start to deal with them. So, nobody wants them to begin with, and then nobody wants to adopt them, either. It's a horrible, terrible cycle, and I honestly don't know what's worse: Abortion, or the fucking wringer these poor, innocent kids get run through.

Why not something else then? why arent people pushing for more education? More assistance? More involvement? Why is killing the child still the best answer?? My guess is because its the easiest for people who arent in the situation--it doesnt cost them anything, and they dont have to be involved. And just so people can understand my frame of mind, I have done a bit of volunteer work and through other ways I have been around more than a couple situations where things are really bad. you cannot be in bail enforcement for any length of time, for example, without seeing things like that. I remember one lady we were trying to get, we made entry into her apartment, and she was holding her infant daughter in her left arm and trying to stab me with her crack pipe with the right arm. you see the worst of people in this business, believe that.

But at the same time, you also dont know what that child will become, how they will cope with that mess, if they can get through it and go on to a good life or not. Without getting into too much detail, i can tell you that I grew up in a very abusive alcoholic house. I can also tell you that it was so bad, that back in the early 80s, when no one knew how to handle child abuse, the authorities were involved in the house i grew up in. the system only made things worse for me....but I got up off my back side and made an adult out of myself. I have a fantastic wife, the greatest children, a good career, and I want for nothing. and I am no better than anyone else--things just went the right way in my life. what if, instead of focusing on abortion and "ending the problem early", what if we decided to focus all that energy on taking care of all the messed-up broken lives we've already got? wouldnt that be better? Abortion, even if you consider it an option, does nothing for those already in the system, am I right? if youre REALLY interested in avoiding the orphanage-type scenario and stigma, then why dont we try something that actually fixes the problem instead of a quick-out that still doesnt help where it is needed the most? imagine this--what about the poorest of the poor? how many hundreds of dollars dont they have to pay for an abortion? OR...we could actually treat people like they are important, like they matter, and show them how to overcome and live....wouldnt that be better for everyone involved?


I see what you're saying, and I understand where you're coming from. But, how many of them would really want to be born into a home where they aren't wanted, aren't loved, and might be abused horribly?

well, if we spent that abortion time and money on protecting them and helping them get past that, wouldnt that give them a far better chance at a good life than killing them in the first trimester???

And how can the Pro-Life crowd shout that every life is sacred and should be spared, when they don't care where or how that life will have to be lived? All they care about is that the child is born, but after that, they don't care what happens. Anyone who is shouting "make abortion legal" needs to get in line and start adopting some of these unwanted children. Seriously.

I take it your statement is meant to be general, and not specifically aimed at me, because I dont fit into that mold. And why would you require "pro-life" folks to adopt other people's kids? I have children. No one else has to support my kids, feed my kids, care for my kids. I am not just someone who shouts against abortion, but practices whatever i choose instead. I live what I preach. I share what I believe with others so that maybe, if someone is on the fence with such an issue, maybe i can help them to make a better choice.

i can just as easily make the same statement for the "pro-choice" crowd--why arent you all out there adopting children? in one breath, youre telling us that people arent lining up around the corner for abortions, and then in the next, youre complaining about how our system is overflowing with kids that no one wanted. this very clearly tells me that the lack of abortions is not the problem--the way we treat these people once they are alive is. As a society, arent we the ones that should be responsible for our young people? Arent they the ones that will take over this world when we're gone? then it falls on us to teach them and get involved. of course, its hard these days to find people that are involved enough with their own kids, let alone someone else's. but thats the whole point--abortion is NOT the solution to this problem! Keeping one unwanted child from the system today doesnt help the hundreds that are in it. And the sooner everyone realizes that, the better off we all will be for it.



And the parents that kill their children with "shaking baby ********* or abuse or neglect?? That's a steep, steep learning curve, my friend, and it's the CHILD that will pay for it. Sure, the parent might grow up, but on the other hand, they might be too goddamn selfish and psychotic to be able to handle it. That's why it's so tough: Life isn't a TV show or a Hollywood happy ending... Go work at a hospital sometime and see some of the sick, twisted things people do to their little boy or girl... It's disgusting what parents can do to their kids. Most people like you and me know that a child is a responsibility... I'd lay down and die for my kids, and you all know it. But some people just don't get it. That's why I have said in other threads on these types of discussion that depo shots should be mandatory for welfare recipients, people should have to get a license to have kids, etc. Making abortion illegal and leaving these kids to hopefully be ok in a situation where they aren't wanted is no better than abortion. Really.

maybe youve forgotten who youre talking to, but think about what you know about me, and then tell me if I really need to be told how horrible some people are to their kids. I know quite well about that already, and i have seen more than I would have cared to on the matter. But all that does is go right back to the same deal--all these kids in the system today will be adults tomorrow--how will they be able to function when society's best answer is "abortion is legal"???

The worst case I ever worked by far was a child molester--not only was he arrested for molesting his own daughter, but the neighbor's kids, a niece, and some others too. He was a repeat offender, already a registered sex offender, and he even told the prison warden that when his sentence was up, he was just going to do it again. he really believed that he was sick, that he could not help himself. So, of course, they put this guy back out on the street. and how long do you think it took him to be in trouble again? didnt make it two months....meanwhile, people are screaming for his death.....and forgetting all about the kids who now need to find some way through this nightmare. Society is not at all interested in rolling its sleeves up and getting dirty by dealing with these kids head-on. its always the quick-fix, well, abortion wont fix this problem, it wont even put a dent in it.

We don't have a thread about it, otherwise I would be.

you cannot feel that strongly about the matter if you need to wait for someone else to bring it up in a separate thread in order to be vocal about your stance, especially now that its been mentioned here by me. maybe if more of us were vocal in public, maybe people might wake the hell up a bit. many will not, but some would. This is our society, we shouldnt be along for the ride when we dont agree with the destination.

is the womens rights movement the crazy bitch feminists?????

I suppose they make up a part of it, but not necessarily. Granted, I'm not particularily informed on the issue.

show something shiny to ark. he'll go away

the gleam from your balding head ought to do it, old man

im a fiver. high forehead look. like this dude.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/photos/7da_sat_garfunkel_010507.jpg

i wish i was aborted

YZF-R1 and his klan would opt ofr abortion if they found out that their son would be like me........

contrary to atheist pundits, Jefferson himself was a religious man, who recognized "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights"



Yeah, but again, EVERY RELIGION has some form of creator. Christians tend to think that word must mean God for everyone, and that's where the objections start. A god-figure (or figures) that created the universe and everything in it is universal to ALL religions.

However, since they have rights too, shouldn't their rights be protected as well?

no

What the hell is the matter with you people? regardless of what sources tells you, the people have spoken, there must be a separation of church and State. And ya don't have to look further than Afghanistan to see of what church is to society.

church = reduction in current freedoms

http://www.leahandalan.com/wp-content/fiore.jpg

not atheism or evolutionary naturalism :)

That's because it's not a religion.

That's because it's not a religion.

It's just as faith-based as any other religion.

Fail. ARK, why don't you just call 'life' itself as faith base? I know you want to. after all, to believe you will get up the next day is faith, huh? well shit, since now we can stretch definitions beyond its capacity, lets just call horses pigs chicken and cows as hotdogs.

It's just as faith-based as any other religion.

Whats next? Calling bald a hair color?

exactly sog

Whats next? Calling bald a hair color?

so, let me get this straight.....youre arguing that believing there is no God is not a faith-based concept. Yet at the same time, you have faith in yourself that your chosen position is the right answer. you have faith that God really doesnt exist. you do not KNOW any of this, you have no ironclad PROOF just as christians cannot prove without doubt that Christ is real....so the only thing you have is your own personal beliefs based on what you have experienced in life. So....you rely on a belief and then you say it isnt faith-based.

good call. run with that one, i hope it works out well for ya.

I hope this helps:

North Shore Assembly of God‎

9779 Gross Point Rd
Skokie, IL 60076

(847) 677-0390

- northshoreassembly.com‎



/sigh
OK. I really could use your focus here.
I'm not sure where to use your word 'justification'. probably because the word isn't useful here. so we'll leave it out of our discussion. coolio dudio?

We cant 'murder' your child because god wont let us. Makes sense? Haven't you've heard that when god has planed for us to die, we die? It is common knowledge. With that same logic, the unborn kid was planned to die from god as well.

You cant murder your child. God wont let you. Nor can someone down the street can touch your child. God wont let them. Don't you see yet? We are all in gods plan. no human can disrupt that.

Now when our loving god's plan for a particular child is to die today, he'll carefully send somebody who can get the job done, likely a killer with a pedophile degree or a knowledge of a long vacuum tube, to take the sweet child's life. Apparently the bigger the drama the kid left behind, the faster the soul was delivered.

therefore, my logic is Godgic!



not sure where your confusing arises but I'm sure it was my fault. feel free to ask any questions. however, I believe god is not happy with our free choice progress. with all the sinners not properly readied for heaven, he is going about it in a different fashion that is undetected by either you or I.

more stuff for yas to read that is related to my statement above...

Did you know Daniel was thrown in a pit with man-eating lions yet he didn't get eaten? The lions growled at Daniel but they couldn't open their mouths. God kept Daniel safe. ( Read Daniel:6 to find out why).

http://biblescripture.net/Lions.jpeg

Goofy? Don't like art? Whats up?

perhaps Daniel was placed into an abandoned lion cave? is that your point?

so, let me get this straight.....youre arguing that believing there is no God is not a faith-based concept. Yet at the same time, you have faith in yourself that your chosen position is the right answer. you have faith that God really doesnt exist. you do not KNOW any of this, you have no ironclad PROOF just as christians cannot prove without doubt that Christ is real....so the only thing you have is your own personal beliefs based on what you have experienced in life. So....you rely on a belief and then you say it isnt faith-based.

good call. run with that one, i hope it works out well for ya.

lol. Yeah that's what I said.:rolleyes:

Keep making up what I was arguing. I hope that works out well for ya.

does it matter? the point is, only god can kill you or an unborn child. not humans. therefore humans will not go to hell. proof is in the pudding, boys. Look at the pic! get it yet?

blather to be silenced at the judgment

Judgement is only good to the person who approves of the justice system. lol so yeah, cant wait. ill be the first with the balls to kick gods ass. by looking at the photos, it'll be an easy task. don't worry, i wont throw you nor sky down the chute to hell. that is because i am a loving person. i just get mad and aggressive to mean assholes like god. dont worry. it shall be done. then we all can go back to work. i wont since i will have a new job, being the new god.

lol silenced at judgement. lolloooooollllolololol

no

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllll :lmfao:

yep....life is short

since life itself seems to never end, you must mean my life. I sure don't want to live past 60. I welcome death. and if you live past 60 and all of the sudden you are blessed with everything you can imagine, it is because of I, czarofzar, kicked Jesus' ass for doing a piss poor job ruling over this so called kingdom, and i took over.

too bad i wasn't aborted. i would have done this sooner. god cant prolong the eventual

a single-cell zygote is no more a person that a human hair follicle.

But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies. It's the ultimate irony that people who claim to represent a loving God resort to scare tactics and fear to support their mistaken beliefs.

naw, it doesnt breath air.

some facts
Between 1967 and 1970 sixteen states legalized abortion. In most it was limited, only for rape, incest and severe fetal handicap (life of mother was legal in all states). There were two big exceptions — California in 1967, and New York in 1970 allowed abortion on demand.

bumping your big seller, huh?

once fertilization occurs, it's not a woman's body anymore, it's a new life

what happened to the old life?

someone agrees with me

1. death is not necessarily a bad thing (although we mortals always tend to think of it as that), or a "judgment of God"....some of those kids, perhaps ALL of them, may have been ushered right into the presence of God and left this dump behind forever....not a bad deal

so what?

what is that supposed to mean--that misery loves company?

Lots of people agree with you....that doesnt make you any more right that it makes anyone else. lots of people agree with me too....I'm quite certain that me saying so doesnt make you jump up and proclaim your apologies, and that I was right after all....correct???

not a bad deal, no....not necessarily a bad deal. That doesnt mean its the intended way, or that its the best way. it simply means that it isnt bad for the child. it doesnt make it right and I am quite sure that yzf wasnt trying to say it did.

so what?

what is that supposed to mean?

death isnt a bad thing

Below from honegod. shows validity to my 'god is glad we are sending pure souls to heaven' comment.

the fools actually seem to think simply doing all the things god wants done might get them forgiven for being born.



Quote:
Originally Posted by King James Version
Isaiah 66

16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
__________________

I know lots of people that should've been aborted. Now we all suffer because they were not, and they'll go to hell because they were'nt sucked up with a shop-vac when their souls were pure and clean.

Oh well, ya can't save 'em all.

:o :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

lol love it! ++++++1