I am angry of this life's tragedy of a little girl and her assailant. It's an age old question whether god is man enough to forgive greater sins or is god 'man' enough to face me.

MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- A convicted sex offender on trial in the abduction and slaying of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford told authorities that he hoped to meet her in heaven and apologize, a detective testified Tuesday.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/LAW/03/06/girl.slain.ap/story.couey.court.ap.jpg

I understand and heard everything that man has to offer to put our mind at ease when we ask for answers for this particular matter. God wasn't useful here or to this little girl whom never had the chance. Nor was he useful to the man that struggled with the thought of even to go through with his actions. If god did anything noticeable, he didn't strengthen the child's family faith, he didn't attract my attention to look for his guidance, instead he shook the fruits off the life's tree to watch them detach from him and rot on the ground.

justice will prevail when i get there.

http://peking.org/images/img/tianamen-square-china.jpg

Btw, the man was sentenced to death today.

Seems that the most despicable acts involve children. If God were to step in and intervene with every such act however, then the act that is just a little less vile would seem just as despicable in the absence of crimes involving children and God would be viewed as no better for allowing it to happen.

Seems that the most despicable acts involve children. If God were to step in and intervene with every such act however, then the act that is just a little less vile would seem just as despicable in the absence of crimes involving children and God would be viewed as no better for allowing it to happen.
To see god intervene to anything period would make that insertion valid.

How do you know that humanity hasn't been spared something that is worse?

Like war?

I was thinking of something unimaginable. At any rate, how can you say that He has never intervened with (or should it be in?) anything?

Like retardation? Polio? Deformed? Burn victims?
Well, if your point is why I am enjoying my families health, you have a good point. Do you have anything tangible in mind? I don't.
Black plague? Slavery? Starvation? Asteroids? Ice Age? Earthquakes? Tsunami? Sun's expansion. Death Star targeting

I look at your first post and it says to me “if God exists, then He is evil for letting this happen.” However, this statement does not seem as if it would be exclusive to this one single event. If God had stopped this man from abducting and killing that little girl but allowed the same sort of thing to occur in other instances, He would hardly be vindicated. Your fist post here tells me that if God exists, this sort of thing should not happen, not ever.

I posed the idea to you that perhaps we have been spared something worse. This does not mean start listing off things that we haven’t been spared. Instead, imagine something that, if it did exist, it surely would be considered far worse than the death of an innocent child. Something that the human mind cannot embody because God has made such an act inconceivable, so that is would never happen.

your general overall question is:
why is there evil crap and shit and fucking bad stuff in the world and stuff?

the answer varies depending on who you're asking. since we only talk about christian stuff here, i suppose the christian answer is that evil exists in the world because of the fallen state of man, which is our own fault; but this fall will in turn lead to a greater glory at the end.

i also remember an interesting anecdote about mother theresa. during an interview, a reporter posed a hypothetical situation: when a child is alone and dying, where is god? mother theresa answered something to the effect that 'god is there, suffering with the child. the real question is: where are you?'

Don't worry about it guys. I'll just have to kick god's ass myself.

if you haven't tasted the bitter, sweet doesn't mean much

so that means that the ability to transfer guilt from the guilty to the innocent also enables the transfer of tasting the bitter to an innocent so you can taste the sweet.

a child was raped to death for the glory of god so you can truely enjoy heaven.

yup, that's christianity.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

Don't worry about it guys. I'll just have to kick god's ass myself.

so that means that the ability to transfer guilt from the guilty to the innocent also enables the transfer of tasting the bitter to an innocent so you can taste the sweet.

a child was raped to death for the glory of god so you can truely enjoy heaven.

yup, that's christianity.

i'll make the christian arguments, since i love playing devil's advocate.

blame for the death of the child should be attributed to the actor. directly, that would be the actual rapist murderer. indirectly, it would be the fallen state of mankind that gives rise to hating and blaming god. he put us in paradise originally and we rejected it. and we continue to reject it everyday - just look at the current state of the world.

the responsibility for the death of the child falls on all of us. everytime we intentionally hurt another person or act irresponsibly in our dealings with other people... we create our own shithole everyday and continue to live in it. god's goodness is that he has already given us the tools to live in harmony with one another. unfortunately, each and every one of us rejects that in some form everyday.

typical warped garbage

no, the child was raped and murdered because the human heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

but justice will prevail, no one is "getting away" with anything

how is that justice??

Clearly, the rapist is not going to heaven anyways, so anything else that he does will NOT incur any new consequence! If you're already destined for Hell, what more punishment can come from anything else you do?

1--God creates a man, let's call him Marky.

2--Marky, according to God's plan, is not gonna make it to heaven.

3--Marky rapes a child.

4--Since Marky's already gonna burn because of whats in his heart(or what isnt in his heart), what "justice" will take place for this further act?

i'll make the christian arguments, since i love playing devil's advocate.

blame for the death of the child should be attributed to the actor. directly, that would be the actual rapist murderer. indirectly, it would be the fallen state of mankind that gives rise to hating and blaming god. he put us in paradise originally and we rejected it. and we continue to reject it everyday - just look at the current state of the world.

the responsibility for the death of the child falls on all of us. everytime we intentionally hurt another person or act irresponsibly in our dealings with other people... we create our own shithole everyday and continue to live in it. god's goodness is that he has already given us the tools to live in harmony with one another. unfortunately, each and every one of us rejects that in some form everyday.
What you are saying is god is an irresponsible being. Interesting.

If there is a god, the blame is directly to him. He made the product: The man whom couldn't talk about his hell on liking small girls, and the child whom allowed herself to be bagged and buried alive. Which the event shaked people's faith even harder; allowing folks to remove themselves from the so-called god's grace. I guess heaven is running out of room. People are getting laid off. Only ass kissers are allowed to enter.
I'm sure things are running smoothly in heaven. I'll give him hell.

Was not god the architect of the free willing program? He made it so and gave each one of us this. This removed protection from the innocent.

how is God responsible for human sin (willful rebellion)?

because HE MADE the human heart "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" .

that is NOT a chosen state, that is the default nature of man as created by god through his cursing ALL mankind for the "sin" of one.

NO MAN has the choice of NOT being "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" because the ONLY WAY to escape the CURSE is through an act of god that CANNOT be influenced IN ANY WAY by the individual concerned.

the child was murdered because god did CHOOSE NOT to lift his curse from the rapist, not GIVING HIM THE CHOICE to NOT be "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked".

God is a sadist.

it's clear all the way from Genesis 4 that this life is intended to be a test of the human will, but how is God responsible that we fail the test, any more than the drill sergeant is responsible if you fail boot camp? that is lazy blame shifting


This example assumes that the drill sergeant had no hand in shaping the recruits or that if he did, he did so uniformly. This is not the case with God because everyone is endowed differently and all such endowments come from God. The danger in metaphors is trusting their conclusions.

The worthyboards forum had an interesting discussion about free will. Did you ever end up joining there?

This example assumes that the drill sergeant had no hand in shaping the recruits or that if he did, he did so uniformly. This is not the case with God because everyone is endowed differently and all such endowments come from God. The danger in metaphors is trusting their conclusions.

The worthyboards forum had an interesting discussion about free will. Did you ever end up joining there?

somethign else that is also different is that the DI doesnt know ahead of time which recruits were meant to pass and which ones were meant to fail. God, however, designs each person to those standards. If you are not going to heaven, God knows this before you are created. The DI looks at those recruits with the intention of instructing them well enough to pass--God looks at people knowing full well what they will and wont do before it ever happens.

On that note, if you were created not to make it to heaven, not a single thing you could ever say or do will change that. This is a strong case against free will--if the outcome is predestined before you ever draw a breath, and you have no hope or chance whatsoever of changing that outcome, then you do not have free will. Free will means that you do have the power to change the outcome--it gives the individual the choice. When all is predestined, there are no choices.

somethign else that is also different is that the DI doesnt know ahead of time which recruits were meant to pass and which ones were meant to fail. God, however, designs each person to those standards. If you are not going to heaven, God knows this before you are created. The DI looks at those recruits with the intention of instructing them well enough to pass--God looks at people knowing full well what they will and wont do before it ever happens.

On that note, if you were created not to make it to heaven, not a single thing you could ever say or do will change that. This is a strong case against free will--if the outcome is predestined before you ever draw a breath, and you have no hope or chance whatsoever of changing that outcome, then you do not have free will. Free will means that you do have the power to change the outcome--it gives the individual the choice. When all is predestined, there are no choices.

I tend to look at the problem of free will a little bit differently... but ultimately you and I are on the same page here.

Free will means that you do have the power to change the outcome--it gives the individual the choice. When all is predestined, there are no choices.

overly simplistic argument.

free will and predestination co-exist.

you choose what you say and do. you are not a slave to another will. you are responsible for your own actions. this is free will.

on the other hand, everything happens once and only once. history moves down one path and one path only as viewed from the present. an omniscient being that exists in all times at once views all of time as a history. this is predestination.

but both so-called points of view co-exist within the same hypothetical universe.

when god gives man the gift of free will, he has taken his hand out of the path they choose for themselves. he has, however, left the door open for them to save themselves. that doesn't mean history will branch out in a million different directions.

overly simplistic argument.

No disrespect, but so is yours.

free will and predestination co-exist.

you choose what you say and do. you are not a slave to another will. you are responsible for your own actions. this is free will.

on the other hand, everything happens once and only once. history moves down one path and one path only as viewed from the present. an omniscient being that exists in all times at once views all of time as a history. this is predestination.

but both so-called points of view co-exist within the same hypothetical universe.

when god gives man the gift of free will, he has taken his hand out of the path they choose for themselves. he has, however, left the door open for them to save themselves. that doesn't mean history will branch out in a million different directions.

The duality of free will and fate is a fallacy. Look a little closer and you’ll see this.

Consider a man who was created with a taste for medium rare steak. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll say that his adoration for steak came from God. Now consider a scenario where this man has to choose between eating a medium rare steak, cut and dressed to his liking, and the rotting leg of a corpse. Now, given this man’s predispositions with respect to his preference in food, he will obviously choose the steak over the corpse’s leg. You would view this as free will. The problem here is that the man’s preference in food is what determined his selection. What is important to realize is that despite the fact that this man made the decision himself, the ability and capacity to make this decision came from someone else. A man governed by his predispositions is not free.

that chicago politician 'let them vote freely as long as I get to choose who is on the ballot.'

because HE MADE the human heart "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" .

that is NOT a chosen state, that is the default nature of man as created by god through his cursing ALL mankind for the "sin" of one.

NO MAN has the choice of NOT being "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" because the ONLY WAY to escape the CURSE is through an act of god that CANNOT be influenced IN ANY WAY by the individual concerned.

the child was murdered because god did CHOOSE NOT to lift his curse from the rapist, not GIVING HIM THE CHOICE to NOT be "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked".

I cant even imagine what drove this man to perform such an act to an innocent. Knowingly, it was a matter of time he will be caught, since in todays technology, he would have figured they will discover his signature inside her. I guess he gave up on his efforts and decided to go out in this world his way. Rather than living a long life of being tortured by the voices inside him to do something he shouldn't.

Therefore, I am pretty certain he would rather have other kinds of hell. Like the habit of spending his money in vagas on a high dollar hooker. He didn't choose this hell. Its madness.

no I haven't joined yet, I should....aside from you, bx, and tofu, there is really no one here with anything worthwhile/insightful to say

Right........ :rolleyes:

The real reason why mini man hasn't joined is because he will suffer the fate of his true nature... He will say something stupid, yet again, and get kicked out / banned. Then to justify his actions he will re-register under a different user name until he is banned again.

Then as all of us sit back and watch as Mark makes another ass of himself, we will laugh hysterically as even the true Christians don't want anything to do with him AGAIN....

Yes mini man, try to prove me wrong on this one....can wait to see as yet another group of Christians kick you out again.

Yes mini man, try to prove me wrong on this one....can wait to see as yet another group of Christians kick you out again.

"Again"? Who were the first group of Christians that kicked him out?

"Again"? Who were the first group of Christians that kicked him out?


Story goes that some bible study group didn't want to have anything to do with him because of his postings on the other forum....they saw him for what he truly was and 'asked' him to leave.

the commandment of God is "written on the heart" of every man, so that they are "without excuse" at the Judgment

there is really no one here with anything worthwhile/insightful to say

:D

'there is nothing good inside me, no good thing dwells within me.' - paul, eh ?

not a quote, but you know the passage.

so either there IS some good that we are blocked from accessing, or we are utterly evil, deserving the hell we are destined for.

so the killer was either PREVENTED from choosing to be good and NOT rape and murder children, or he was created TO rape and murder children.

for the glory of god.

"Again"? Who were the first group of Christians that kicked him out?

Marky used to go to a men's group. This was a bunch of guys that would get together and study the bible. The truth of the matter, in a nutshell, goes like this.

1--marky inadvertently sent email with the email addresses of all the guys in this group.

2--during this time frame, marky was in his now-famous "death threat" phase over on 7 club.

3--in a lounge thread on 7 club, marky started his usual BS.

4--due to the threats and other behavior, I emailed one of the group members, and asked him if the way marky acted was the way they all believed or taught.

5--the reply came that no, they do not believe or act this way, and they were 100% shocked at marky's actions. They then began to watch the thread in the lounge to see for themselves what marky was up to.

6--it became known to marky and others that his friends were watching him, and immediately marky began to try to put on a show. he lied about ever acting the way he did and even threatened to sue me for slandering him.

7--because the group was watching marky's award-winning behavior, they confronted him about his actions. He then lied to them, claiming that the person saying those things was not him. When he got caught up in this lie, they distanced themselves from him by asking him to leave the group.

Now, marky has tried all sorts of things to deny this. First he claimed that they never kicked him out. Then he said that he could go back whenever he wanted. Then he claimed that the leader of that group was a drug addict, and he didnt like the sins of the others either. One BS story after another. And to this day, he refuses to admit that the only reason they asked him to come back was because they believe they are trying to do God's work by seeking out the LOST.

For more details, see this thread:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=428263&highlight=knocking+heavens+door

this guy's sin, while it grabs the headlines, is no more damning than any other sin

that's the scary part

exactly. the same punishment awaits the person who's "sin" consists of saying "no thank you, I'd rather be my own master." as the child rapist and murderer.

that is some screwed up morality right there. bigtime.

you can't see it because YOUR morality is exactly as screwed up.


raping and murdering a child IS NOT MORALLY EQUAL to refusing to be a slave.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

shucks, you Believe that raping and murdering a child is morally SUPERIOR to saying "no thank you, I'd rather be my own master." since a child rapist and murderer CAN go to heaven, while the person who says "no thank you, I'd rather be my own master." CANNOT.

there will be various levels of suffering in the Lake of Fire

only as a literary invention of Dante, who when last I checked didn't have his works put into the bible.

Originally Posted by YZF-R1
this guy's sin, while it grabs the headlines, is no more damning than any other sin

Originally Posted by YZF-R1
there will be various levels of suffering in the Lake of Fire

look whos talking out his ass again....if all sin is equal in God's eyes, why would there have to be different levels of punishment? This is known as a contradiction. how incredibly unshocking, that it came from marky

"suggested by"? What happened to the literal word of God?

From Luke 12:

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Two things--first, marky was just proven wrong. Ask him at any time, this question:

"what if someone was born in a place where there is no Christianity example to follow? How can that person be expected to follow the right path?"

See what he says about it. He has been asked before and has said that it doesnt matter--that God's presence is basically "built-in" to the soul, so that is no excuse. But according to that passage I quoted, it most definitely does make a difference, doesnt it?

The second point is that the one among us who so proudly proclaims himself so far above the rest of us is in for one rude awakening, based solely on that same scripture.

who can even begin to imagine the scene of the Final Judgment?

try to imagine BILLIONS of people before the throne of God!

I've tried to imagine that scene, it makes any of these modern hollywood productions seem utterly trivial

I sincerely have no doubt whatsoever that you have fantasized about, and masturbated to, that scene.

I sincerely have no doubt whatsoever that you have fantasized about, and masturbated to, that scene.

Now you will....

Isn't the only unforgivable sin to not accept God and Jesus into your heart?

Isn't the only unforgivable sin to not accept God and Jesus into your heart?

the worst sin is to run all over the place, pretending to be ever-so-righteous, all the while only using God and His word for one's own personal selfish gratification. The bible is clear that God will be far more harsh with one who knows the way and still chooses not to follow it....

nah....I'll never read another perverse psycho jonnie rant again

the truth must really hurt you a lot....youre a crybaby