Have you guys studied the reformation? Specifically, have you investigated and analyzed Luther's Justification vs RCC Justification?

I have not, though it sounds like an interesting topic. What are your thoughts?

I've been listening to a couple CD serii from Ken Hensley. He's a former Baptist Preacher who's now a catholic. The first series was about John Calvin. Ken's problem with Calvin was that he side-stepped church authority. He threw the baby out with the bath water. The second series was about Martin Luther. It focused on justification from Luther and the RCCs POV.

Ken suggests that the justification issue is the doctrine which split the church. He further suggests with verses, I don't recall, and other evidence for Luther being incorrect. Such as, OT saints such as Abraham and Noah had to act in both faith and obedience(works) to receive what God had intended for them. If Noah just believed God but did not make the ark then he would have been lost. He made a pretty good point about justification. YZF, you should know the old adage, "if it's new, it's probably not true". Did you ever consider that until Luther, there's no real history of justification by faith?

Secondly he critizes the loss of church unity and uses Jesus's prayer in John 17:20-21 to show that Jesus wanted there to be 1 church body:

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

However, there's no way I'm joining up with the Catholic church unless they get rid of Mary and the saints worship stuff. Plus the magesterium, that's got to go. The pope would have to go too. Apocrypha, appendicized. Celibacy requirement, gone. Lord's Prayer, that can stay but it can never be recited wrote again. Transubstantiation, gone. Infant baptism can stay but it can't mean the same thing as the RCC thinks it mean.

This stuff is important for all of us whether we consider ourselves Catholic or catholic. I've just started to study this and other doctrinal issues within the last couple of years. I should have studied it 20 years ago.

Pray, Read, Pray

to be honest, that alone shows he doesn't really understand doctrine, because the Roman system is rife with error

Hensley doesn't disagree with the church having problems at the time, his point is is that christians shouldn't leave the church. I think he has a problem separating the organization from the body.


you bet it did, and the Roman system came down on the wrong side of the issue http://www.carm.org/catholic/rc_justification.htm

again, justification occurs in a moment of time, by Divine Election, and has nothing to do with works, otherwise the man crucified at Jesus's right would be lost...sanctification is good works empowered by the Spirit of God, which should be present in some measure after the time of justification

justification is by faith alone through Christ alone, I've always been taught that, the best reformed pastors all teach it, and it can be defended with many scriptures, I'm surprised you're that (ostensibly) confused on this basic issue

(ostensibly) confused? I'm not confused, sir, just not historically informed. I'm well aware of verses on both sides of the argument. I've never been so insulted in my entire life. I submit that further investigation is necessary. Do you think it's possible that Luther was the first to come up with this idea? If so, it could be quite damning to the protestant position.

Balls.

you have the gospels and epistles, that's all you need, stop getting distracted by impressive sounding doctrinal mumbo-jumbo and arguments about tangential issues and focus on the simplicity of Christ

All people who consider themselves to be Christians should by all means study the history of the church and of church doctrine. The fact that there are 2 sects and countless denominations alone should drive a person to do this. If you haven't you very well could be wasting time studying incorrect doctrine which will leave you powerless to complete what you've been purposed to do.

Balls.

Motion Seconded.

If each denomination sets its own spin on doctrine, how can one know the truth without investigating it? I'm assuming everyone already knows they have to study the Bible. But how does one learn that what their learning is false except by thorough investigation? Case in point. The JWs can make an excellent case for their positions using verses of scripture, which even seem to be in context. If they study the history of their church and doctrine they would find that their ideas and not compleletly founded.

From your writings, I suspect you are a cessationist. I know people who have witnessed healings done by the word of faith crowd.

MarkDivr.

that's an erroneous assumption in many cases...most people just believe what they are told, they certainly can't put in the effort to study the Bible for themselves.

The problem is that they're listening to their teachers using verses to support their heresey. This is very hard for the common person to get away from. That's why I say people should study not only the scriptures but the history behind the doctrines. By all means the Bible is the absolute authority. But I guarantee whatever church you're in, you're hearing some form of incorrect doctrine. Paul says to study to show oneself approved able to correctly discern the word. This takes effort.

by investigation of the Word, minds called by God are quickened by the Spirit

2 Corinthians 2

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment

I agree.

no, they twist and pervert the scripture to their own destruction with their foolish, carnal reasoning, as do countless millions...which is why I say, stay away from them, they will only erode your faith (but you won't listen)


No, they came begging for the truth by knocking on my door, (but they didn't realize it, it's a spiritual thing) you insensitive boob. What do you do, hand them a purple triangle patch as you shove them into your wood stove?:sticpoke: The people need help. Besides my mind's not open to their gobble-dee-gook work's based Gospel.



2 Peter 3

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

amen...

Amen!

I don't like labels, but anyone who claims to have the gift of healing, to be able to heal by word or touch, instantaneously, is a phony and a fraud...yes, I believe the sign gifs passed away with the apostles and their associates, as the scriptures were written down and the need to authenticate the message ceased (note that even the apostle Paul used his gift progressively less and less)

I think the problem may be that most Charismatic types think they can conjer up the spirit every sunday.

that's a very strange distortion of the facts: they are looking to spread their heresy, and you welcome them in, in direct rebellion to John's epistle

Ahh, but Johnny Mac says it's OK. Don't tell me you disagree with the Great JMac?

nothing "insenstive" about it! they are OUTSIDE, most of them are DAMNED, they are NOT called, they are only there to spread their lies and contaminate your mind...you're playing with fire, and you aren't that strong

Strong enough? What's it take? Is this where you say "bx7, you have to be Mark 'Strong' enough." and then you try to sell me your aftershave lotion. It's not going to work on me.



ask yourself if you are closer to God by doing this.......?

Ray Comfort would do it. You should too.


I'd do exactly what John's epistle says, I would not invite them in, period! if God has called them, they will find their way out of those false systems by reading the Word...I've seen it time and again...YOU won't change them, in your flesh, but you can pray for them

I will pray for them.

I'd like to see the full context of the notes you are referring to, the transcript I posted previously indicates otherwise

Do you have the set? I'll get you the page number. If you don't have the set, you should buy it; it's well worth your money.


no one is strong enough, that's the point, you're taking it the wrong way

I understand. If my sovereign God will preserve me to the end, the JW's can't cause me to lose my salvation. Everyone on the outside is living under headship of satan having a false twisted religion, whatever it is. They're just like everyone else.