Mark, this is the thread I said I'd start.

You talk on and on about the end times, how Israel is going to draw the world into war, etc, etc.

So, you know what I think the biggest sin is? The fact that if the Bible is 100% true and accurate, and God was nice enough to give you guys a book with what's going to happen, and how everyone is going to die, suffer, and writhe in the fire and brimstone, don't you think you owe it to yourselves to NOT do that? Don't you think you guys should look at the Bible, at the stories, and at your faith and say, "Wait a minute... What if this is a test? What if God gave us this story, and it's up to US to figure out how to avert this? What if it's up to US to decide not to let this happen?"

If the Bible is really true, word for word from God, and you see yourselves heading down that road, don't you think it would be best to stop it? Don't you think God, in his infinite wisdom, in giving you free will, would be the proudest of his children if they united to stop such a terrible happening?

Mark, this is the thread I said I'd start.

You talk on and on about the end times, how Israel is going to draw the world into war, etc, etc.

So, you know what I think the biggest sin is? The fact that if the Bible is 100% true and accurate, and God was nice enough to give you guys a book with what's going to happen, and how everyone is going to die, suffer, and writhe in the fire and brimstone, don't you think you owe it to yourselves to NOT do that? Don't you think you guys should look at the Bible, at the stories, and at your faith and say, "Wait a minute... What if this is a test? What if God gave us this story, and it's up to US to figure out how to avert this? What if it's up to US to decide not to let this happen?"

If the Bible is really true, word for word from God, and you see yourselves heading down that road, don't you think it would be best to stop it? Don't you think God, in his infinite wisdom, in giving you free will, would be the proudest of his children if they united to stop such a terrible happening?

If the Bible is really 100% word for word true, then the things youre talking about CANNOT be stopped. Thats the thing--and respectfully, I dont expect you to understand that because i dont know if you have ever read the whole book or not. if the whole bible is truth, then what we see in Revelation is prophesy, and not a story about 'what will happen if you people dont fix things....'

We cannot say "the Bible is 100% truth" and then go change it around to think that we can stop these events. if it is 100% true, then one shouldnt even be trying to stop those events, because they are coming just as sure as we are breathing air right now.

Are you suggesting the Church or any group of Christians can halt the plan of God? Who are we? God is the One Who planned everything from the beginning, to the smallest detail, concerning Israel's role and the events of the Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week). It is only because of God's tremendous capacity to hold back His anger that sinners are not immediately destroyed. The destruction of the present heavens and earth only ushers in a new and glorious age for believers.



And that is my problem with Christianity: God's anger towards those he supposedly loves. You cannot unconditionally love someone, yet condemn them to an eternity of suffering and pain.

And who are we? We are the ones who supposedly have life's playbook! You guys supposedly have the key to the future! So, why not come together and show God's love in the best possible way, by trying to ensure the survival of everyone? I mean, hell, you actually seem giddy to watch people you know suffer in the fire.

If the Bible is really 100% word for word true, then the things youre talking about CANNOT be stopped.

Sure they can. What would be the point of giving you guys the key to the future if you aren't supposed to use it?

"Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated", Christ died for the Elect, everyone else is damned, by God's sovereign will....God shows His compassion in the substitutionary death of Christ but also shows His wrath in the destruction of sinners...both bring God glory

So you think it's ok that people being destroyed for sin to bring God glory is a good thing?

very true!

So then God's love is conditional.

I'm not, and that's an evil attitude, but I do get frustrated....I'm human

I doubt God would see it that way.

Sure they can. What would be the point of giving you guys the key to the future if you aren't supposed to use it?

again, youre thinking in limited circles here. Who ever said that christians dont "use' the "key to the future", as you call it?

In fact, the Bible lays it out as to exactly how this information is intended to be used. just because we dont use it in one certain way, how does that mean it isnt used at all? if you limit your thinking to one dimension, you will miss much, both in the Bible and elsewhere.

So, why not come together and show God's love in the best possible way, by trying to ensure the survival of everyone?

I guess the best way to explain this is with a story that my pastor told our church about his upbringing....

growing up in his family, his mother was the only person in the house that read the Bible and prayed to God. her own children, my pastor included, would sometimes joke behind her back about how strict she was. Well, from that one person, my pastor's brother turned to God. Then one of his sisters did. Then he did. And from that one person, it spread....and from our pastor, there is now a church of over 200 believers, and growing. He actually moved his wife and family to the town where our church is, to start this church there. 8 people came here and started this church.

The point? Simple--it is not for any one of us to go out and reach everyone. Thats why there is more than one believer. We reach out to people and some will take interest. Others wont. What do you think I am doing in here, talking about what i believe knowing that several of you will mock it all over the place? We reach out with our beliefs and some people will hear it...others wont. But we ARE growing....now, i seriously dont believe that we will be able to stop the prophesy you spoke of. But I DO know that people will only hear what they are capable of hearing at any given time, for any number of reasons. I am telling you things today that you wont follow yourself, but I could say the same thing tomorrow to someone else and it might all click into place for them.

I think the key signs we are seeing right now are:

no tolerance for the Bible



Like back then? Not even a fraction of the population back then had a tolerance of Christianity.

FACT:

If I had a say of who wins the Nobel Peace prize of the whole human existence, it would have to be Pontius Pilate. It's about time someone stood up to these people who claim they are god or messengers of such. If our hero wouldn't have allowed the Jews to have their way, who knows what doom loomed over humankind if Jesus was dealt with differently.

iaw this pic, they got the right man all right. looky at all those people as the audience. Jesus was useful here. offered a few hours on entertainment.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Eccehomo1.jpg

another Hero, Herodias

http://www.american-pictures.com/genealogy/descent/photos/Herodias.Salome.head.of.John.2.jpg

nice head? She was angry with John for criticizing Herod for marrying her, the wife of Herod's brother. So John was beheaded on Herod's orders, but at the request of Herodias.

that'll teach guys who think they are god or messengers of such, to mind their own business.

And you are?
what's the deal with you? why are you insisting to be accommodated? Got sleep?

Like back then? Not even a fraction of the population back then had a tolerance of Christianity.


to answer your question

if a biblicist cites a New Testament claim that such and such event fulfilled such and such prophecy, simply insist on seeing reliable nonbiblical corroboration that the alleged fulfillment event actually happened. Herod's massacre of the children in Bethlehem would be an example of an uncorroborated event. The massacre allegedly fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy (Matt. 2:18), but no one has ever found an extrabiblical source that corroborates the lone biblical reference to this event.

-Farrell Till

Actually, Herod's rule and architecture is well documented, there was a recent show on Discovery about it; the slaughter of newborns is also well documented. He was known to be a cruel, yet brilliant ruler.

The remains of the former temples in the area of the current Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem are the subject of intense study by archeologists, and more is learned, literally every day, that absolutely corroborates the Biblical account.

So, once again, you're little wiki quote or wherever you got that turd from is worthless.

(note to sky...see the insult? note to $100, please dont delete yzf post. ty. now step back, sky, dont want you to get hurt. Just watch how the old pros allow the insults roll off 'em)

yzf,
besides whats stated in the bible, i am interested in seeing your so-called 'well documented' event that harod ordered the slaughter of children. kk? Also note that an important historian documented harods rule and never mentioned said event. but to be fair, this guy did mention of a name Jesus. but to be blunt, he did mention harods rule ended before jesus was born. yzf, you eat poop

(notice sky that yzf didnt cry here) (notice sky of yzf mocking smileys. watch me show some restraint from crying. not hard to do)
oops my bad. don't know the guy but i had to show a source since it wasn't from my mind. i thought he had a good point. you have the documentary from your poop source yet?

have a good one. ill remind you when you get back on obtaining that document.

got time yet, yzf? hand over them documents please.

there was no insult there, your quote is a turd, I didn't say you were a trud

who the heck is Farrell Till? ::roll::rasta::bssmile:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrell_Till

Even I gotta say, he sounds like a crackpot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrell_Till

Even I gotta say, he sounds like a crackpot.

interesting here was the man apparently a pastor even. then somehow became an atheist. kind of like my path without the pastor title. I'm kind of confused on how you can construed this mans short description of his life as a crack pot.

we really need to get Iran and the other anti jew/American nations involved. seriously. but I dont thinnk Iran wont launch until Russian lobes salvos across America first. Iran needs that in order to be successful. Any thoughts, sky?

http://www.ling.gu.se/projekt/sprakfrageladan/images/middle_east_map.gif
looking on this map, assault from Iran would be most difficult. thanks to American made buffer zones of friendlies (Iraq, Turkey, SArabia), there isn't any direct access to Israel. Iran must know this. unless there are hidden enemies that USA is unaware of, it's only saber rattling as usual.

Zechariah 12

"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

the time when all nations were against Jerusalem must have past because at least the last part of the prophecy is true.

right now daniels 70th week is a tough sell. The Jews and Jerusalem have not yet experienced the events of Daniel 9:24.

Cool. -And all this time I thought you were the antichrist.