If the elect are predestined to be saved, then it logically follows that the un-elect are predestined to go to hell. What's the problem with this?

I realize I should post something like this on a reformed or non-reformed forum, but I'll probably enjoy more what you guys say, especially if you have no clue as to what I'm talking about. In all honesty, Calvinism shouldn't be called Calvinism. It puts a man on a pedestal. Both he and Arminius were dead before the Synod of Dort.

Well, if the predestined are to be saved, and the un-elect are predestined to go to hell, it means that "Spreading the Word of God" is a useless venture. Those that are to be saved, will be, and without your intervention or "bringing them to God". Those that are not to be saved never will be, despite how much effort you put into "bringing them to God". You can sit on the couch and eat Cheetos, 'cause if your ticket past the gates is stamped (or not) at conception (or earlier), it doesn't matter one lick what you do when you're here.

If there's a problem with the un-elect going to hell, it makes the assumption that the only options in the afterlife are Heaven and Hell. IIRC the old testament makes no reference to such a place, your choices were death or everlasting life. That being said, maybe the un-elect just die, no need for eternal punishment.

IIRC the old testament makes no reference to such a place

And Moses said, By this you shall know that Jehovah has sent me to do all these works, and that not from my own heart. If these die according to the death of all men, and are visited according to the visitation of all men, then Jehovah has not sent me. And if Jehovah makes a new thing, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them, and all that they have, and they go down alive to Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised Jehovah. And it happened, as he made an end of speaking all these words, the ground which was under them split apart,

Deu 32:22 For a fire has been kindled in My anger, and it burns to the lowest Sheol, and consumes the earth and its produce; and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

1Sa 2:6 Jehovah kills and keeps alive; He brings down and causes to go to Sheol.



That was a few quotes for Sheol, "The Grave," Basically the Hebrew for hell.
Now for hell, as printed in KJV!

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

2Sa 22:6 AND Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Pro 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Pro 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Pro 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

ETC ETC ETC I'm sure you get the point :P

Ah, my understanding is that the Hebrew that gets translated to "hell" in the old testament more directly translates to "the abyss", not an eternal flame-roasted punishment, but just the lowest and darkest place imaginable.

You kinda right, they do translate Sheol into Hell, but it's the same place.

Take a look at it's use (Esp at Psa 88 and 89), it is indeed Hell, "The Pit" and all the maggots etc:

(Num 16:30 LITV) And if Jehovah makes a new thing, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them, and all that they have, and they go down alive to Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised Jehovah.

(Num 16:33 LITV) And they went down, they and all that they had, alive to Sheol, and the earth covered over them; and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

(Deu 32:22 LITV) For a fire has been kindled in My anger, and it burns to the lowest Sheol, and consumes the earth and its produce; and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

(1Sa 2:6 LITV) Jehovah kills and keeps alive; He brings down and causes to go to Sheol.

(2Sa 22:6 LITV) the cords of Sheol are all around me, the snares of death confronted me.

(1Ki 2:6 LITV) and you shall do according to your wisdom, and shall not let his gray hair go down to Sheol in peace.

(1Ki 2:9 LITV) And now, do not acquit him, for you are a wise man, and you know that which you shall do to him and shall bring his old age down with blood to Sheol.

(Job 7:9 LITV) As the cloud fades, it goes, so he who goes down to Sheol shall not come up.

(Job 11:8 LITV) Heights of the heavens! What can you do? It is deeper than Sheol; what can you know?

(Job 14:13 LITV) Who will grant that You would hide me in Sheol; You would conceal me until Your anger turns back; that You would set a limit for me and remember me?

(Job 17:13 LITV) If I wait for Sheol as my house, I have spread out my bed in the darkness;

(Job 17:16 LITV) They shall go down to the bars of Sheol, when our descent together is in the dust.

(Job 21:13 LITV) They spend their days in good, and in a moment go down to Sheol.

(Job 24:19 LITV) Drought and heat eat up the snow waters, and Sheol those who have sinned.

(Job 26:6 LITV) Sheol is naked before Him, and the Pit has no covering.

(Psa 6:5 LITV) For there is no memory of You in death; who shall give thanks to You in Sheol?

(Psa 9:17 LITV) The wicked shall be turned to Sheol, all the nations forgetting God.

(Psa 16:10 LITV) For You will not leave My soul in Sheol; You will not give Your Holy One to see corruption.

(Psa 18:5 LITV) cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of death confronted me.

(Psa 30:3 LITV) O Jehovah, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, from going down into the Pit.

(Psa 31:17 LITV) Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon You; let the wicked be ashamed; let them be silent in Sheol.

(Psa 49:14 LITV) Like sheep, they are appointed to Sheol. Death shall reign for them. And upright ones shall rule over them in the morning; and their form is for rotting; Sheol is home for him.

(Psa 49:15 LITV) But God will redeem my soul from the hand of Sheol, for He will take me. Selah.

(Psa 55:15 LITV) Desolation be upon them! They go down into Sheol alive, for evils are among them in their dwelling.

(Psa 86:13 LITV) For Your mercy toward me is great; and You have delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.

(Psa 88:3 LITV) For my soul is full with evils, and my life touches Sheol.

(Psa 89:48 LITV) What man lives and never sees death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of Sheol? Selah.

(Psa 116:3 LITV) The cords of death hemmed me in; and the pains of Sheol found me; I find distress and sorrow;

(Psa 139:8 LITV) If I go up to Heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there!

(Psa 141:7 LITV) As when one plows and tears the earth, so our bones are scattered at the mouth of Sheol.

(Pro 1:12 LITV) let us swallow them up alive as Sheol, and whole, as those who go down into the Pit,

(Pro 7:27 LITV) The ways of Sheol are in her house, leading down to the rooms of death.

(Pro 15:24 LITV) The path of life is upward to the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol downward.

(Pro 23:14 LITV) You shall strike him with the rod, and you shall deliver him from Sheol.

(Pro 27:20 LITV) Sheol and destruction are never satisfied, so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

(Pro 30:16 LITV) Sheol, and the barren womb, the earth not filled with water, and the fire, these never said, Enough!

(Ecc 9:10 LITV) All that your hand finds to do, do it with your strength. For there is no work, or planning, or knowledge, or wisdom, in Sheol, there where you go.

(Son 8:6 LITV) Set me as a seal on Your heart, as a seal on Your arm. For love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as Sheol; its flames are flames of fire, a flame of Jehovah.

(Isa 5:14 LITV) So Sheol has enlarged its appetite, and opened its mouth without measure, and her glory and her multitude, and her uproar, he who exults in her, shall come down in it.

(Isa 14:9 LITV) Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

(Isa 14:11 LITV) Your majesty is lowered into Sheol; the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you; yea, the worms cover you.

(Isa 14:15 LITV) Yet you shall go down to Sheol, to the sides of the Pit.

(Isa 28:15 LITV) Because you have said, We have cut a covenant with death; and, We have made a vision with Sheol, when the overwhelming rod passes through it will not come to us for we have made the lie our refuge, and we have hidden in falsehood.

(Isa 28:18 LITV) And your covenant with death shall be covered; and your vision with Sheol shall not rise up. When the overwhelming whip passes through, then you shall be for a trampling to it.

(Isa 38:10 LITV) I said in the cessation of my days, I shall go to the gates of Sheol; I am called to account for the rest of my years.

(Isa 38:18 LITV) For Sheol cannot thank You; death cannot praise You; the ones going down to the Pit cannot hope for Your truth.

(Isa 57:9 LITV) And you went to the king with oil and multiplied your perfume. And you sent your messengers far away, and lowered yourself to Sheol.

(Eze 31:15 LITV) So says the Lord Jehovah: In the day he went down to Sheol, I caused a mourning. I covered the deep over him, and I held back her rivers, and many waters were restrained. And I darkened Lebanon on him, and all the trees of the field wilted away because of him.

(Eze 31:16 LITV) I made the nations shake at the sound of his fall when I made him go out to Sheol with those going down into the Pit. And all the trees of Eden shall be cheered in the earth's lowest parts, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink waters.

(Eze 31:17 LITV) They also went down with him into Sheol, to the slain of the sword, even his arm, who dwelt in his shadow in the midst of the nations.

(Eze 32:21 LITV) The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.

(Eze 32:27 LITV) And they shall not lie with the mighty of the uncircumcised who are fallen, who have gone down to Sheol with their weapons of war. And they have put their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be on their bones, though the terror of the mighty was in the land of the living.

(Hos 13:14 LITV) I will ransom them from the hand of Sheol; I will redeem them from death. O death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your ruin? Repentance is hidden from My eyes.

(Amo 9:2 LITV) And if they dig through into Sheol, from there My hand will take them. And if they go up to the heavens, from there I will bring them down.

(Jon 2:2 LITV) And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.

(Hab 2:5 LITV) And also, wine indeed betrays a proud man, and he dwells not at home; who widens his soul like Sheol. And he is like death, and is not satisfied, but gathers all the nations to himself, and collects all the peoples to himself.

I find it most interesting that what I got corrected on was suggesting that there's not a hell (and how! is that *every* quote that has Sheol/hell in the OT?), but not the idea that spreading the Word of God is a worthless and unecessary venture in a predetermined universe.

I find it most interesting that what I got corrected on was suggesting that there's not a hell (and how! is that *every* quote that has Sheol/hell in the OT?), but not the idea that spreading the Word of God is a worthless and unecessary venture in a predetermined universe.

I didn't see you as honestly suggesting that, I thought oyu were saying more of a "By your logic, it would mean this" and "therefore, your logic is flawed"

But the premise is wrong. Otherwise, why would Yeshua have told his disciples:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And again, as is written in Titus:


I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not); a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Which is actually what I did mean :) I just thought it was funny that I didn't a reaction from it.

Which is actually what I did mean :) I just thought it was funny that I didn't a reaction from it.


OK, I think we're back on topic. Even if election is true, the elect are still called to spread the message to everyone else. God has chosen this as the method for how the elect will hear the Gospel.

Do you guys think the Calvinistas are correct in the idea of predestination?

the elect are still called to spread the message to everyone else.

I think y'all are overlooking the fact that jesus says the chosen will be HATED by the cursed.

since the point of preaching to the cursed is clearly NOT to help them find salvation the preaching is not for THEIR benefit.
no, the idea is to whip up the frenzy of hate that god wants his creations to experience.

as proof I point to how the chosen are all the time being spoken of as "shoving their religion down everybodys throat" no matter HOW polite and gentle the presentation may be.

this is because of the dual nature of the message, the chosen says "jesus loves you and wants you to go to heaven" the cursed HEARS " you rotten sinner I will be glad when you are burning in hell"

Yes, but no.

Think of Paul, who hated the message.

I think y'all are overlooking the fact that jesus says the chosen will be HATED by the cursed.

since the point of preaching to the cursed is clearly NOT to help them find salvation the preaching is not for THEIR benefit.
no, the idea is to whip up the frenzy of hate that god wants his creations to experience.

as proof I point to how the chosen are all the time being spoken of as "shoving their religion down everybodys throat" no matter HOW polite and gentle the presentation may be.

this is because of the dual nature of the message, the chosen says "jesus loves you and wants you to go to heaven" the cursed HEARS " you rotten sinner I will be glad when you are burning in hell"

I think you're on to something here. Any message that only specifies the love or the wrath alone is not complete. Both have to be presented.

I think the best way I've heard "spreading the word" in a positive light was making it akin to breathing. You can't just inhale, you must also exhale. To truly know something, you must teach it. Also, maybe the predestined are predestined to hear it from *you*.

How does Calvanism rectify predestination and free will?

I think the best way I've heard "spreading the word" in a positive light was making it akin to breathing. You can't just inhale, you must also exhale. To truly know something, you must teach it. Also, maybe the predestined are predestined to hear it from *you*.

How does Calvanism rectify predestination and free will?

I'll have to re-watch my recruitment video to give you the details but I think it essentially lies in the idea that we have free will to disobey God's laws. They will back this up with passages that justify the position.

I'll have to re-watch my recruitment video to give you the details but I think it essentially lies in the idea that we have free will to disobey God's laws.

But if you're predestined to be saved, it doesn't matter if you choose to break God's laws or not, no choice *you* make determines whether or not you go to heaven. So where's the motivation to follow God's laws?

Yes,

I like that :bigthumb:


but no.

I am interested in that


Think of Paul, who hated the message.

please expand, expound.

Do you guys think the Calvinistas are correct in the idea of predestination?

if you assume a time travelling god, sure, unless the god is forgetful, every detail of the entirety of the universe all happen in the same instant to him.

no surprises, so no freewill.

WE can be surprised so we see what appears to be free will happening but is in reality just the inexorable progress of the needle in the record groove.

we are god listening to Black Sabbath at 78rpm, backwards.

:bowdown: :screwyou: