The reality of God.

Prelude: What this is and is not: This is not based on half an hours thinking. I have put an incredible amount of time into contemplating all of this. Classes, personal research, listening others, etc. I've looked at most every side. This is at least biased as I can possibly be. These are my thoughts:

The best argument I've heard against the existence of God is that we, as humans, have a need for understanding. We cannot accept the unexplained as unexplainable, we need reason. The argument states that there are things that we can't explain, so the idea of God was simply formed long ago to explain away "natural" phenomena. Additionally, we need purpose, why live for nothing? Many of these things, we now understand today, and some consider that all that we do not understand, in the future humans will as science progresses. Because of this process, there is no proof of God, so there is no reason to consider that God is real.

My argument against that is, what if God is felt? God's energy, God's affects, God's presence can certainly be felt in my opinion. I once saw a show about the neurology of religious experiences. It's been documented that all brain activity of religious experiences, whether it be the presence of God, or angels, or other religious beings take place in a certain region of the brain. This opens up the platform for the idea that the "feeling" of the presence of God is simply your "mind playing tricks on you," therefore the experience isn't real and there's reason to believe God is real.

After an enormous amount of time contemplating all sides of this, I must ask, what is real? How do humans define something as "REAL?" Through the same methods that we have religious experiences--the brain. I consider my keyboard real, because I'm touching it. My hands touch the keyboard, this is signaled to my brain through -rons/electrical charge, and my brain tells me that my keyboard is reality. Reality is simply what our mind creates it as via our senses sending electrical signals. If a blind man cannot see a cloud, something that the other senses can't tell him exists, does that make it not real? The blind mans senses cannot relay to the brain that the object is present, so in his reality it does not exist. How is the object any less real to those that can sense it? How is God any less real to those that can sense him? If I can sense God just as I can sense anything else, how could he possibly be any less real? I cannot smell a cloud, but I can see it. I cannot see an odor, but I can smell it. I cannot taste the wind, but I can feel it. The sixth sense exists. Some refer to it as the non-tangible heart, some say it's feelings, some say it's the gut, some may even say it's something similar to the "force" from star wars. Regardless, there is something outside of the 5 traditional senses. This sixth sense sends pulses to the brain just as the other 5 do.

God is as real to me as anything that I can see, smell, taste, hear, or touch.

Signed, the soon to be dubbed "bible thumper",
-Zero. :)

i agree. god is as real as your imagination. and since you can imagine, god then has to be real.

i agree. god is as real as your imagination. and since you can imagine, god then has to be real.

If that's all you comprehend, I apologize for not having the right words.

Did Zero read "The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"? That last part of your post sounds like some of the things the author was contemplating.

Youve always come across as a bit of a thumper IMO. Do you associate yourself with any particular religion?

I've never felt any presence, so I've never spent much time thinking about it.

i understand fully and those words i gave is the reality of your situation. and therefore it is I who must apologize.

there isn't any gain for anyone to sit with you presently, offering you deterrence. Ive followed a few paths to heaven and have warm memories of that. however, somehow i missed heaven or heaven missed me as i walked past. didn't see it.

i just came to the conclusion...i missed it because it simply isn't there.

I hope you find it.

yeah, its a dead mother thing.

focus? of what?

i accept the need for the church comfort when emotions of her memories flood back to me. this i cheerfully surrender to. but its short lived as emotions clear up.

get it? when I'm drunk on emotion is when i make those choices. not with a clear mind.

well, yeah, the remedy was man made but it did the trick. I didn't want to make a mess, you know.

Church doesn't do much for me. All I've experienced spend too much time focusing on the wrong things... typically to sway/control people... leave it to man to be able to screw up everything.

any church is a collection of imperfect people...as long as they teach sound doctrine, you can become part of the solution and contribute to a better community...isolation is no answer to anything

I feel that isolation teaches me more about myself. As far as the imperfect people, my concern isn't them or what they do... my concern is whether collectively, the church focuses its energy on positive things, rather than the negative.

I don't judge people, and that's what I see in the "Christian" churches of this area. Too many cliche hatred-filled southern opinions are justified by interpreting the bible. I've never been in a church that focuses on the love of God rather than the shortcomings of people. There is a difference between being realistic about things, and being downright judgemental. If you can't come to God and "God's people" for love, where can you go?

All in all, I don't see where church will improve my spiritual life.

Youve always come across as a bit of a thumper IMO. Do you associate yourself with any particular religion?
I'm somewhere between Christian and agnostic... I don't participate in any church or religious activities. I feel that most of what people know about Christianity, are improper interpretations often influenced by outside factors. I disagree with a lot of Christian ideas. I do not believe that God is vengeful. I believe that revenge is something humans have created because the revenge restores our damaged egos. I certainly believe God is above that.

Lots of what I read to contemplate my spirituality is writings by people. For example, Gandhi wrote this (taken from two different things, but the context is pretty much the same) I don't agree 100%, but it's definitely a good writing to think about:

"There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though I do not see it. It is this unseen power that makes itself felt and yet defies proof, because it is so unlike all that I perceive through out the existence of God to a limited extent. God is that indefinable something which we all feel but which we do not know. To me God is Truth and Love, God is ethics and morality. God is fearlessness, God is the source of light and life and yet. He is above and beyond all these. God is conscience. He is even the atheism of the atheist. He transcends speech and reason. He is a personal God to those who need His touch. He is purest essence. He simply Is to those who have faith. He is long suffering. He is patient but He is also terrible. He is the greatest democrat the world knows. He is the greatest tyrant ever known. We are not, He alone Is."

I've never felt any presence, so I've never spent much time thinking about it.
Do you think that humans are the absolute most complex and greatest thing that exists?

Gandhi was a racist...

Gandhi was a racist...

If reading something by him sheds light on something for me, I don't care whether he's a racist or not. I'm not really sure if you were A: joking, B: trying to discredit him, or C: just bored, but I found your post pretty irrelevant and worthless. Feel free to start a "Gandhi was a racist" thread.

A and C. I agree, the post was irrelevant... just trying to keep in-line with the rest of this thread.

A and C. I agree, the post was irrelevant... just trying to keep in-line with the rest of this thread.

Thanks... bye. :wave:

Alright, not to be a complete asshole...

You spoke of feeling God, or sensing his existence, presence, etc. Is it possible that this is merely mass hysteria?

Cults thrive on charismatic leaders, but I tend to believe that they survive (for those that do) on a belief that something can be felt beneath the surface. Granted, this is in no way an original thought, but is it possible that belief in a monothesistic god is simply the result of an overgrown cult? Something that began as something relatively small but then gradually became engrained within society to the point where people now believe that it can be felt beyond the senses.

iron sharpens iron...solitutde goes against the entire dynamic of the N.T....join a small group Bible study at least
If church works for 99% of people, then I encourage them. It doesn't help me.



keep looking then...but if you are expecting churches to approve of homosexuality, that's not going to happen
I do not expect anyone to be looked down upon or persecuted, including homosexuals. Spending time and energy belittling people really doesn't do any good.



then quite frankly you're blind, because relationships within the church are everything...read any of the epistles
Someone telling me that a relationship with a church is everything isn't going to change how I feel about it. The only thing that's going to do that is coming across a church that makes me feel that a relationship with that church is everything.

Alright, not to be a complete asshole...

You spoke of feeling God, or sensing his existence, presence, etc. Is it possible that this is merely mass hysteria?

Cults thrive on charismatic leaders, but I tend to believe that they survive (for those that do) on a belief that something can be felt beneath the surface. Granted, this is in no way an original thought, but is it possible that belief in a monothesistic god is simply the result of an overgrown cult? Something that began as something relatively small but then gradually became engrained within society to the point where people now believe that it can be felt beyond the senses.



Edit: I suppose you're asking something along the lines of... if I were completely isolated and never experienced mans thoughts of God... would I come up with the same result? I'm not sure, but it has been considered.

it could also be vivid imagiantions, or, in some cases, demons playing games with people wrapped up in the cults

if someone claims God speaks to them or through them, you immediately know they're a crackpot, and there MANY of these people running around in 2008
If someone is claiming to hear voices... I doubt I'm going to believe it... but I believe God talks to us through other means. Don't miss the forest, for the trees.

Did you read anything on the first page? It's been covered.

Maybe it's all this Thanksgiving turkey that's making me stupid, but I don't see where exactly. You asked how God is any less real to those that can sense Him. How is that purple elephant that's floating in my closet any less real if I can "sense" him too?

Edit: I suppose you're asking something along the lines of... if I were completely isolated and never experienced mans thoughts of God... would I come up with the same result? I'm not sure, but it has been considered.

pretty much. Why did cultures that had never been exposed to God's word have completely different ideas about what started it all?

Hmmm, I don't know if that is the case or not, but I'm sure someone who's younger than me will come by soon, google link in hand, and shed some more light on this subject.

pretty much. Why did cultures that had never been exposed to God's word have completely different ideas about what started it all?

Conditioning by outside forces certainly shapes ones reality, I am not ignorant to this.

but it's interesting that there are "great Flood" legends in essentially every ancient culture

I don't like using this as an actual reference, but it will do for now;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_flood#Hebrew

Keep in mind too that there is evidence of a large impact crater in the Middle East around the time of the floods;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1361474/Meteor-clue-to-end-of-Middle-East-civilisations.html

And Marky, I don't doubt that you are going to claim that this "crater" is a false crater. However, I would like to point out that you didn't provide examples in the "rock-layer" thread :bigthumb:

Greetings, Zero.

May I ask if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior? Don't take it as a loaded question, it's not. I know you described yourself as somewhere between Christian and agnostic (I think I got the term right anyway...) and was wondering if you have come to a decision about Jesus, or if you are just revealing that you believe there is a "God" out there and you are unsure of exactly what to make of it, or how to describe what it is you feel.

I hope I posed the questions in the right manner. I'm really not setting you up for anything- but sometimes my written words come out differently than if we would be in the same room talking, complete with facial expressions, etc.

Thanks in advance.

my name is "Mark", ok? I've been respectful of you, so lay off that tired nonsense

Sorry Mark. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, just thought that is what you went by.


the "asteroids wiped out the dinosuars" idea is absurd, anyhow, because it would have decimated everything else as well...

You don't know that for certain, in fact, no one does really. However, evidence does suggest that the dinosaurs couldn't adapt to the rapidly changing climate due to their size, speed, and so forth. Perhaps not the case with smaller, more easily adaptable animals.

by contrast, ubquitous evidence for the global flood is impossible to ignore, people simply do not believe the Bible...

I am not denying that there is evidence of a global flood, I just don't believe that it is as "worldwide" as the bible claims. We have questionable archealogical evidence in Central America, yet no cave paintings or stories in the American Indian tribes, nor is there evidence in ancient South African cultures. Worldwide indeed...

There's evidence that it happened. Some want to believe it because they feel that it validates their faith-based religion.

Others won't believe it regardless of evidence.

You aren't going to change each others minds. These typical circle-arguments are why I don't like religion. Often times peoples efforts are oriented around arguments rather than what religion should be--making the world better.

You aren't going to change each others minds. These typical circle-arguments are why I don't like religion.

I understand, and I have no intentions on changing someone's mind on a topic so polarized. There is the science argument, but I am curious with what the other side has to say.

referring back to the original post, i think that 'sixth sense' or internal feeling of god is referred to as the holy ghost by christians

the way you are talking about god is touching on zen buddhism. reminds me alot of my bddhist dad, who read the art of motorcycle maintenance way back in the 90s. lol.

wonder what zero is up to.

How is Zero's journey so far?

Time to troll it up then....

http://shopping.hobidas.com/image-resources/far-east/GOODS/CHARACTERS/TROLL/TROLL-BANK-ALL.jpg

get a job, mr. outsourced liar
you're such a piece of shit


There it is!
skidMArks true nature....Didn't learn anything from the ban did you!

Outsourced? You're reaching for straws.....again!

:rolleyes:

LOL, at least I dont work in shitter water.

Sure try to cover that smell....maybe its your breath.

We all know what you do, and it aint much.
The programs that I work on saves hundreds, if not thousands of lives a day....

I seriously doubt anything you have done has ever benefited anyone for the better.

ok, whatever...I work with drinking water, I suppose no one cares about that, right? it's the ultimate job security

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l14/el_boxer/nobody_cares.jpg