discuss
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20--%20science%20vs%20faith.png

Who are a victim of faith?

He who believes God is with him but has no way of establishing the truth of the matter. In a way, believers, especially the evangelical type, are salesman: they (a) create a need for their product in convincing people they have a problem. And (b) they show why their product is the ideal cure, and that (c) brand(s) X(other faiths and religions) are not as good as theirs!

the assumption is that frail human beings can understand the universe: it's origin, it's function and purpose, that matter and energy is somehow eternal....and that we can perceive ALL reality....that this is the "be all, end all" (what we can perceive)

We will never fully understand the universe and I'm sure if you ask someone who study's some part of the universe they'll say the same thing. Every answer we get just leads to more questions. What these people aim for is a better understanding of the universe. Granted there will be some in that group that think they are hot shit and think they know everything, but every group of people has a few of those types mixed in.

again, this is circular reasoning, and inevitably puts man (and human wisdom) at the center of the universe

So any assertation of thought and trying to comprehend the universe means man is at the centre of the universe, according to you?

As opposed to the church preaching Man is the master of all animals, and the Earth is the centre of the universe?

Sounds more like you're running it through your persecution filter, then railing against a perceived slight that exists only in your mind.

Who are a victim of faith?

He who believes God is with him but has no way of establishing the truth of the matter.

This makes one a victim how exactly?

For starters, we can say;

a victim of guessing

or a victim of fear

how is the hiding god put upon by being ignored ?

if any fool could look and WATCH him pushing the sun up over the horizon, investigating how the sun magically rises ON ITS OWN would be absurd indeed.

but he's hiding, so we CAN'T just shout "hey god, what are you standing on when you push the sun up in the morning ?"

I see no reason to ask YOU.
you haven't gone and looked.

For starters, we can say;

a victim of guessing

Is guessing exclusive to faith? If not then what is relevance of linking the two?

Also, what are the averse effects of guessing? At this point it seems to be on par with being a victim of typing or a victim reading.

or a victim of fear

The problem with this statement is that is suggests that all those with faith live in fear, and those without it do not.

Perhaps we need to redefine the word victim?

no hope.

in god all things are known or unknowable, set, fixed, immutable.

as opposed to every question being askable, with the hope of finding an answer.

the christian "impossible" becomes "don't know how", with all the fun of looking.

I thought up some more;
victims of religion. ha.

Is guessing exclusive to faith? If not then what is relevance of linking the two?

Also, what are the averse effects of guessing?
Guessing and fear is the attribute of faith. 'Am i going to heaven? Guess so." Which is no way the same as "Am I going to get laid? Guess so."

The dumber you are, the more absolutely certain that there is a god, and you also 'know better' than to allow your mind to be receptive to the thought that there is no god, or try to disprove god when new evidence suggest 'no god'. Religion might and can make you dumber.


The problem with this statement is that is suggests that all those with faith live in fear, and those without it do not.

That isn't a problem from where I am standing.

Guessing and fear is the attribute of faith. 'Am i going to heaven? Guess so." Which is no way the same as "Am I going to get laid? Guess so."

The dumber you are, the more absolutely certain that there is a god, and you also 'know better' than to allow your mind to be receptive to the thought that there is no god, or try to disprove god when new evidence suggest 'no god'. Religion might and can make you dumber.




That isn't a problem from where I am standing.

careful here....the absence of fear does not automatically equal the presence of more knowledge, or even of correct knowledge. Humans only fear what they know of, if you dont know that there is something to fear, why would you fear it?

Curious, what are your personal feelings about death? Does it scare you? Where do you feel you will go after death?

Consider a trusting child, unafraid of heights, strangers, etc. It's not that the child is more wise that his or her more cautious counterparts, but simply naive.

But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise

if I choose the stupid child to shame the smart kid does that make me a good father ?

dragging the smart down to the level of the stupid is EVIL.

boosting the stupid to the highest that they can reach, and letting them be proud of reaching that heighth is good.

careful here....the absence of fear does not automatically equal the presence of more knowledge, or even of correct knowledge. Humans only fear what they know of, if you don't know that there is something to fear, why would you fear it?

Someone called back to you saying there is a hidden land mine near the path you are traveling on. Was it hear say? How did they know about it? Do they know where? Why not put a marker near the bomb? How many times must you cross near the danger until you relax and realize there is nothing of relevant danger?
This type of danger will not go away until ample tests are administered and the path becomes safe again.
Many tests point that there isn't a god. You may walk with no fear of your soul for you don't have one.

Curious, what are your personal feelings about death? Does it scare you? Where do you feel you will go after death?

I haven't faced death to state I am scared or not. I think there isn't anything beyond death and to worry about death is folly. It's coming. I rather see it later but not my problem to worry about. Maybe my surviving family.

Guessing and fear is the attribute of faith. 'Am i going to heaven? Guess so." Which is no way the same as "Am I going to get laid? Guess so."

People generally aren’t capable of living with the possibility of Hell looming over them. Best to consider Hell and then convince yourself why you aren’t going there, so guessing is generally not a problem. You might argue that the faithful are victims of uncertainty but that’s something that probably applies to everyone.

The dumber you are, the more absolutely certain that there is a god, and you also 'know better' than to allow your mind to be receptive to the thought that there is no god, or try to disprove god when new evidence suggest 'no god'. Religion might and can make you dumber.

What evidence are you talking about? Seems to be that you consider intuition as proof.

What evidence are you talking about? Seems to be that you consider intuition as proof.
I don't know if its evidence but aren't all the society's so called smart people atheists?

I googled below: Bold is in interest: (You can discount this study if you want. I didn't need to read this to convince me.)

“Several research studies have been published on the statistical relationship between religiosity and educational level, or religiosity and IQ. Michael Shermer, in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science, describes a large survey of randomly chosen Americans that he and his colleague Frank Sulloway carried out. [...] Religiosity is indeed negatively correlated with education (more highly educated people are less likely to be religious). Religiosity is also negatively correlated with interest in science. [...]

[Paul Bell in Mensa Magazine, 2002, reviewed all studies taken of religion and IQ. He concluded:]

"Of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one's intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold "beliefs" of any kind." ”

I wonder if this is a trend that would be supported world-wide? Otherwise this might simply be a cultural phenomenon.

YZF nailed it right on the head...victim of your OWN thoughts deceiving you.

assurance is not something self-generated for a Christian...those who 'convince themseleves' are most likely self-deceived

I agree, though I doubt that people often look at their lives and conclude "I'm going to Hell." Instead they may come to the conclusion that "I'm on a path to Hell," which is hardly the same thing.

At any rate, when czar talks about faith, he does not limit his assertions to Christians.

Someone called back to you saying there is a hidden land mine near the path you are traveling on. Was it hear say? How did they know about it? Do they know where? Why not put a marker near the bomb? How many times must you cross near the danger until you relax and realize there is nothing of relevant danger?
This type of danger will not go away until ample tests are administered and the path becomes safe again.
Many tests point that there isn't a god. You may walk with no fear of your soul for you don't have one.

ahh, but here's the trick--do you BELIEVE that person? if you do not believe that person at all--if you do not believe by any means that the land mine is really there, then you wouldnt be afraid, would you? You would only be afraid if you had DOUBT ABOUT YOUR BELIEF, or if you believed there was one there. So, where does that put you? Death is the same way--if you are 100% certain in your belief that there is nothing to worry about, then when the time comes you will not be afraid. If you are afraid, then there is doubt. I know without a single doubt, for example, that my wife would never cheat on me. so, no matter where she could go, I have no worry at all that she will stay faithful. I dont worry about that happening, no matter what you or anyone else could tell me. See my point? Faith is easily shaken only when it is weak. and weak faith is not enough.

I have faced death, and I have learned that I do not fear it. Sure, I would prefer to be here longer, to see my kids grow up, to have grandchildren, etc etc etc, but when my time comes, my time comes.

I'd venture to say the vast majority of people believe they are basically "good", that if anyone will be accepted, they will, and that their sin is no more than the average person...but this type of thinking is self deception

it really all comes down to a pattern of obedience, or lack thereof

right marky, you still have not commented on YOUR disobedience....and where it puts you in the grand scheme....

you worry about your own, jonnie

when you worry about yourself, I will then worry about me....you see, you dont have any business trying to "educate" others about exactly what matters to god and what doesnt when you yourself arent even willing to do what it takes to follow Him. Say what you will about me or anyone else here, but you go so far over lines that no one else here is stupid enough to cross, and then you proclaim yourself "chosen".....

Get a clue

off topic

you aren't the internet police, worry about yourself

I am not here to be the internet police--but you dont have any business trying to tell anyone about what God wants when you clearly dont even know enough yourself to do it in your own life. Dont bitch at me--you put yourself in this position by claiming to be the one we are all supposedly going to bow down to, and then acting like a complete hypocritical jackass at the same time. dont like it? then change your act

perhaps if you left, I'd have no reason to be angry

perhaps, you need to yank your head out of your ass...because you have clearly treated others just as you treat me, when I am not even in a thread, you are still a world class prick. You cant blame your fuckups on me, when will you learn? You have threatened others besides me, insulted plenty of others besides me, were a dishonest hypocrite to everyone, not just me, and yet here you still are, whining that it is my fault that you cant hold your water?? you are truly a pathetic little man.

let's face it, your witch hunt with me is beyond played out, it's ancient history....what are you acccomplishing? you don't accomplish anything by continually insulting me

I accomplish probably one thing--to let you know that wherever you go, your lies will follow. that is more than you accomplish with your glass house hypocrisy, "do as I say not as I do", blame-your-sins-on-everyone-else bullshit.

ranting

destined for hell

but....but....but...you dont judge anyone, right??

we-todd-id

present course, I call it as I see it

your perception could not get you out of a wet paper bag

fact!

castrated...lonely