An open invitation to serious Bible students, to discuss the opposing doctrines of "election" vs "whosoever will". To further clarify, when I say "election", I mean specifically that God has chosen who will be saved and when I say "whosoever will", I mean that any person can be saved.

I've been studying this myself lately and I find it extremely interesting. First, let's agree to a few rules. Let's keep this limited to only election vs whosoever will and let's not jump into other Calvinism vs Arminianism discussions. Second, let's keep this polite.

I'll begin by stating that in the language of the modern translations, it would appear as though both doctrines, "election" and "whosoever will" are supported. They both cannot be true and as far as I know, there is no scripture to support both at the same time. Before the evidence for each is presented, is there anyone who thinks both can be true? YZF, 95WhitePep, Skydver,Tofuball, HoneGod, Ark, anybody?

When speaking in terms of absolutes, one seems to contradict the other. Considering what is logical, the answer appears obvious, no.

On the other hand, if you believe that this thing is so complex that it baffles the human mind, you could argue that we are just too dumb to understand how both are able to work together. That's a pretty dangerous argument though.

Yes to both.

For the ones God screwed up making, and he knows who, won't for sure make it in heaven. For all the rest, sure, make a choice. Both heaven and Hell has lots of room. Heaven will run just as fine with or without you.

An open invitation to serious Bible students, to discuss the opposing doctrines of "election" vs "whosoever will". To further clarify, when I say "election", I mean specifically that God has chosen who will be saved and when I say "whosoever will", I mean that any person can be saved.

I've been studying this myself lately and I find it extremely interesting. First, let's agree to a few rules. Let's keep this limited to only election vs whosoever will and let's not jump into other Calvinism vs Arminianism discussions. Second, let's keep this polite.

I'll begin by stating that in the language of the modern translations, it would appear as though both doctrines, "election" and "whosoever will" are supported. They both cannot be true and as far as I know, there is no scripture to support both at the same time. Before the evidence for each is presented, is there anyone who thinks both can be true? YZF, 95WhitePep, Skydver,Tofuball, HoneGod, Ark, anybody?

They both cannot be true.

The bible makes it clear that God bestows His mercy as He sees fit. It also makes clear that God knows where each of us will end up before we draw our first breath. Because of this, the concept of free will is a bit confusing....marky tried to address this just the other day, but IMO he got it completely wrong. He said that we are left with the free will to choose what sins we will commit, but that is completely irrelevant, since God doesnt place different values on different sins. Think of the Lord's Prayer:

Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven...

That is God's will, not ours.


Romans 9--

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

that is the key right there. Think about it--you create something, and your intention is for it to do a specific thing. Lets say you write a computer program, and that program is supposed to count up from 0. Let's say that every time the counting comes to a number which ends in 3, you wrote this program to stop counting for 1 minute, then resume. Now, run the program--what happens? Thats right--it stops as you wrote it to. God created each of us with our own individual flaws. God, the all-knowing, created certain people to be alcoholics. There is no choice involved there---remember, God's will cannot be changed by a person, right? If God created me to be an alcoholic, how could I change God's will???

Put that to the question of salvation. When you were created, God knew already if you were going to reach heaven or not. how could you change that? If God says, "this one is to be saved", who can undo that?

One could argue that over a persons life, their destination may change. But how? Remember, the bible clearly states that God knows all. It is written in there that God knows each of us fully before we take our first breath. So, God knows each and every thing you will do in your entire life. So, again, how? Since God knows all, God will most certainly know ahead of time what changes will take place in your life. Therefore, if that applies to you, the only correct answer, since God is all-knowing, the Creator, is that God knew all along that you would start out life rocky, then learn as you got older. See my point?

Sky makes a lot of sense here....
Honestly I really haven't thought about it because I don;t think that anyone can rationally come up with the correct answer.

Who knows exactly what Gods will is? Especially on such a personal level?
A person could go mad contemplating it.

Sky makes a lot of sense here....
Honestly I really haven't thought about it because I don;t think that anyone can rationally come up with the correct answer.

Who knows exactly what Gods will is? Especially on such a personal level?
A person could go mad contemplating it.

thats the thing--I dont think that it is really possible for a person to know what God's will for him is. But it is another thing entirely to see in the bible that nothing can change God's will.

Wow. I figured YZF would jump in first. And what tact.

I thought the discussion might start off the other way with people quoting John 3:16 (whosoever), 2 Peter 3:9 (looks like a whosoever) and 1 Timothy 2:3-6 (whosoever). Or that maybe it would be a half and half like 1 Peter 1:2 which uses both election and foreknowledge.

They both cannot be true.

The bible makes it clear that God bestows His mercy as He sees fit. It also makes clear that God knows where each of us will end up before we draw our first breath. Because of this, the concept of free will is a bit confusing....marky tried to address this just the other day, but IMO he got it completely wrong. He said that we are left with the free will to choose what sins we will commit, but that is completely irrelevant, since God doesnt place different values on different sins. Think of the Lord's Prayer:

Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven...

That is God's will, not ours.

Well, maybe Mark is on to something there but didn't explain it well. No doubt about it, no one can disobey a decree of God. But it is possible to disobey one of his commands. I want to be careful about the language here so there is no confusion. If God decrees or declares that the Jews are given the land of Israel (but with conditions), there's no one who can say otherwise. Another example, if God says I will be saved, I can do nothing to prevent God from saving me. On the other hand, I am able to disobey his commands. God says I shalt not bear false witness, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't lie.


Romans 9--

that is the key right there. Think about it--you create something, and your intention is for it to do a specific thing. Lets say you write a computer program, and that program is supposed to count up from 0. Let's say that every time the counting comes to a number which ends in 3, you wrote this program to stop counting for 1 minute, then resume. Now, run the program--what happens? Thats right--it stops as you wrote it to. God created each of us with our own individual flaws. God, the all-knowing, created certain people to be alcoholics. There is no choice involved there---remember, God's will cannot be changed by a person, right? If God created me to be an alcoholic, how could I change God's will???

Put that to the question of salvation. When you were created, God knew already if you were going to reach heaven or not. how could you change that? If God says, "this one is to be saved", who can undo that?

Great points.

How do you guys defend "election" when presented with "whosoever will" verses? Let's be clear here, there can only be 1 correct interpretation. I'll throw out a few examples.

Can anyone here defend "election" against John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [fn6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

or

1Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

Can anyone here defend "election" against John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [fn6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

all this is describing DEALING IN SOULS between jesus and god, slave trading.

they both want them all, god to fill hell, jesus to spare as many as possible to be his bride in heaven

so jesus BOUGHT with his blood on the cross, some of the humans that god didn't really care about, sort of the chorus for hell, backup screamers.




or

1Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

here again jesus wants us all, but god only gives him the ones he wants to spare from his eternal circus of suffering.

so jesus' blood DOES splatter over everybody, but god chooses who got splattered the right way.


{sorry, long weekend I feel a bit incoherent but I think that made enough sense to introduce the concept I am after.}

yzf got banned again ???

lol before his 10000 post birthday?

Well, maybe Mark is on to something there but didn't explain it well. No doubt about it, no one can disobey a decree of God. But it is possible to disobey one of his commands. I want to be careful about the language here so there is no confusion. If God decrees or declares that the Jews are given the land of Israel (but with conditions), there's no one who can say otherwise. Another example, if God says I will be saved, I can do nothing to prevent God from saving me. On the other hand, I am able to disobey his commands. God says I shalt not bear false witness, but I'd be a liar if I said I didn't lie.

while that is a good point, bx, remember something--there is not a person who has ever lived, past present or future, that has not disobeyed God's commands. We all sin. There are no exceptions. Because of this, disobeying His commands and this discussion are not going in the same direction. Those who are saved most definitely will disobey God, and nothing will change that. Further, hypothetically speaking, let's say that there was a person who did not disobey God--let's say this person followed every command. For this, I point back to Romans 9 again--

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

it all comes back to this one thing--the one and only way for anyone to be saved is through God's mercy and grace. It doesnt matter what you do or do not do--God's mercy is the only ticket.

Also, the free will to choose your sins is pointless entirely, since God looks upon all sins equally. God doesnt say that stealing is not as bad as murder, for example. To God, according to the bible, sin is sin, and if you are guilty of breaking one law you are guilty of breaking them all. And we all are guilty.

Which brings us right back to....God's will. If God's mercy is the only way to salvation, and nothing that a man does can change that, then there is no free will when it comes to salvation. A person's salvation will only come if it is God's will that he be saved....So, let's go back to how God knew us before we were born. God's will for each of us was already known to Him and set in motion without any of us having a shred of free will to do anything about it. No one here chose to be created. So, God created each of us, according to His will, already knowing who would be saved and who would not.


How do you guys defend "election" when presented with "whosoever will" verses? Let's be clear here, there can only be 1 correct interpretation. I'll throw out a few examples.

I have a thought on this, and it is one that I have not really seen much of in here. Suppose the difference is in the term "believe"....this is just a thought, but what if the human concept of 'believe' is not what God intended? It is written that God knows a man's heart....I believe that God knows what is really on our hearts. To believe is one thing--to believe in your heart with such conviction is another. It is entirely possible that what we take as "believing" is not what God intended or meant. Just food for thought....

lol before his 10000 post birthday?

Not that he can get that because $100T2 has decided to knock 100 off his post count every time he gets close. But yes, before his 10000 post birthday.

I have a thought on this, and it is one that I have not really seen much of in here. Suppose the difference is in the term "believe"....this is just a thought, but what if the human concept of 'believe' is not what God intended? It is written that God knows a man's heart....I believe that God knows what is really on our hearts. To believe is one thing--to believe in your heart with such conviction is another. It is entirely possible that what we take as "believing" is not what God intended or meant. Just food for thought....

I get hung up trying to use abrams sacrifice of his son to god to describe absolute belief.

the belief was as 'strong' as cutting his childs throat.

stronger, since it outshone the need to even do the actual blood sacrifice of his child.

ah yes, Rush....

whoa--hold on a second.

On one hand, youre telling me that there is no choice to choose God. You're telling me that one cannot simply say one day that he chooses God, and get saved, right?

This is from the passage you just posted:

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Tell me what doesnt fit...

I'm saying it's complex....there is a role for us to play, but I believe God's Spirit ultimately motivates the drive to submit to Him....we can't do it ourselves

Romans 8

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

I agree its complex, since there is not a man alive today that diesnt sin. Each and every one of us is a slave to our sin. It is only by God's grace that there is any alternative for eternity, but while we are here, every last one of us is a slave to our sin.

Paul declares "I beat my body to make it my slave..."


I think there is something more to that passage...

A lot of Budo dictates practicing to get into the right frame of mind. I practice Aikido, it helps get out the 'negatives' and I'm sure YZF can comment on lifting to get out his energy. But if its lifting, martial arts, running, or 'physical' as Paul mentions, they can all be exhausting mentally as well.

How focused can you be if you are too tired to 'do evil' :bigthumb:

I don't think anyone can ever escape sins. YZF mentions that its Gods spirit that motivates, but I also think that the world can have an effect on a person. Witnessing an injustice can cause a person to motivate himself to act. (Now we can argue that maybe its God that shows you an injustice....)

But in any case, what is His involvement in all of this? Does He just set things in motion, or is it His hand that pushes things our direction? Are we then elected to act or are we bound by own own decision not to?

any follow-up comments bx?

Yeah. I'm amazed at what Skydivr knows. And for all the fuss that usually goes along with a conversation between you too, I am shocked that you guys can carry on a discussion in harmony. God bless you both and I sincerely mean that.

With a little study into church history and some time in the Bible focusing on God's grace, one can come get a tremendous understanding on how things are really screwed up in the modern church.

We start off completely dead. Sure, we appear alive in human terms, but spiritually we're as good as dead. A dead person can do nothing for himself. It takes an act of God to cause us to go towards him.

We have free will to pick which way we'll drive to work, but we have no free will to choose God. We could all misunderstand this but God openly gave us words in the scripture about election and grace that rule out any act on our part to save ourselves or to help God save us.

We have free will to pick which way we'll drive to work, but we have no free will to choose God.

My friend, we don't even have that.