I really like to get back into debating religion. Maybe I can entertain a few people or perhaps make their minds work.

Today's topic is failing Jesus. Why do I say Failing Jesus? Well, I will explain.


Here from John:
22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.”

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus basically ducked away from his stone throwing audience like it actually hurt. Some God. But that’s not the point. Jesus himself was unable to convince people outside of his clique. Which to say, he wasn't any good at convincing people. Not really god like if you ask me. He was a loser. Sorry but true.

God never made sense then...never made sense now. And Jesus taught at ground zero...face to face....and none, outside of his disciples, understood jesus. Jesus failed at God teaching. Why? Jesus was man.

Therefore, God never gave a shit to the people at that time. If he did, Jesus would have save souls.

Whether Jesus is God or had god like powers, proof is in the pudding that Jesus didn’t have god like awareness nor guidance. Definitely not power of persuading. Maybe Jesus likes rocks being thrown at him or made fun of, but for Jesus to waste his time speaking at this particular location just so his words can be recorded for the future is telling of God’s empty powers.

in terms of your (false) assertion, note Luke 8

So it was, when Jesus returned, that the multitude welcomed Him, for they were all waiting for Him. And behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue. And he fell down at Jesus’ feet and begged Him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter about twelve years of age, and she was dying.

But as He went, the multitudes thronged Him. Now a woman, having a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her livelihood on physicians and could not be healed by any, came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. And immediately her flow of blood stopped.

And Jesus said, “Who touched Me?”

When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’”

But Jesus said, “Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me.” Now when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before Him, she declared to Him in the presence of all the people the reason she had touched Him and how she was healed immediately.

And He said to her, “Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace.”
lol never heard of this one. Never heard of a girl ragging for 24/7 for that matter. God's finger works wonders? How'd they know it stopped? Did they peer into her vagina? Dumb

back up that assertion
simple. Remember, the writting of this event happen many years later. So what other reasons did Jesus go there than to preach about how he is God? especially if he knew no one would believe him.

I say, why did Jesus go there anyway? To actually try and convince to the masses that he was indeed god, jesus failed and got pelted.

so the only way for a person to understand the words of jesus is for god to open their eyes.

jesus did NOT do any eye opening, so jesus was not god.


so unless jesus did NOT want to spread the Word to everybody he and the father were NOT one.

I perceived power going out from Me....
your faith has made you well.

totally interesting, the power given to jesus was TAKEN from him AGAINST HIS WILL by a human female.

that puts me in mind of samson and his hair.

hey, and samson ALSO HAD TO DIE A BLOODY DEATH AFTER BEING TORTURED.

of course samson never RAN AWAY from a crowd of people armed with stones, so the parallel is not exact.

Jesus is God and God is omnipotent, right? This means that Jesus spoke knowing that His words would fall on deaf ears. Having such foreknowledge and yet speaking anyway implies that there was another purpose behind His words.

Suggesting that the Almighty failed in anyway is silly. He must merely think it and it would be so. If something did not happen, it is because He did not want it to.

Right! I mean that is Jesus himself who was up there talking to these poeple! Who else better can convince Christianity if it isn't the founder? If Jesus can't then Christianity fails.

Christ is the "image of the invisible God"...without Him, no could believe, and no one could be saved
This pulled out of your butt for moses beg the differ.

Christ is the "image of the invisible God"...without Him, no could believe, and no one could be saved

but the only ones who CAN "see" him are those ALREADY CHOSEN for 'salvation'.

so this bloody woman, who had enough faith to steal jesus' superpower for her own benefit, was SHE "saved" ? was her faith great enough to put her at the forfront of those who gathered the "chosen" into christs church ?

or did she just disappear back into the faceless, cursed to hell, crowd ?

but the only ones who CAN "see" him are those ALREADY CHOSEN for 'salvation'.

so this bloody woman, who had enough faith to steal jesus' superpower for her own benefit, was SHE "saved" ? was her faith great enough to put her at the forfront of those who gathered the "chosen" into christs church ?

or did she just disappear back into the faceless, cursed to hell, crowd ?
And there was a lot of touching going on during jesus' trials. How many people with faith touched him as he passed by with no results?

Surely the bleeding girl knows the real results. No one will doubt a woman's bleeding history for who would actually want to look?

I wouldn't have wasted my time touching jesus if my vagina bleedith. I would have touched him to save mankind. She was selfish.

the gospel is never popular with the masses, it does not appeal to human self-worth

Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


so jesus preaching to the multitude seems, futile, since the exact same effect as far as showing the flag to the chosen few could have been equally fulfilled by private meetings, like the post sacrifice church did it.

what other function than causing the church to be noticed by the people who were garunteed to HATE it ?

the bible DOES say that the "worldly", those unchosen and so cursed, WILL activly hate the saved for being saved.

howcome they even KNOW about the saved ?


it sounds like jesus should have been TAUNTING the unsaved masses thronging to hear him speak, to get them riled up enough to CARE enough about the saved to hate them, as they MUST per gods plan.

for example telling jokes about the unsaved so that only the saved could see the point, parables.

it's not recorded....those who struck him obviously were not in the "faith" group
Right! But the word of mouth, of touching jesus will heal, never took off because it never worked. Evident of lack of participants during and after the trail of Jesus. You don't read about masses of people straining to touch the REAL DEAL and jesus healing masses by the thousands as his life is snuffed out in a crescendo. Only evidence was People generally got annoyed by his holy guilt trip and was happy to rid this man, whom called himself God, die.

God does not delight in the destruction of anyone

since god can't screw up all results are intended for his delight.

including hell.

since the cursed have NO choice they can do NOTHING to deserve hell.

the ONLY way god could NOT delight in hell is if he COULD screw up, allowing evil to be UNINTENDED.

That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. Then he told them many things in parables, saying...
What did you expect? It wasn't football season. people all around heard about this gentle healing dude and wanted to listen to what Jesus said. Not like they had other things to do and wanted to see a magic show. Since jesus voice wasn't amplified, and spoke in parables, not many people walked away satisfied. Why I said that is noticed the Jesus crowds dwindled into a very tiny stream to only his family and disciples near the end of his life on Earth. The honeymoon was over and people got fed up with him.

Jesus essentially banished disease from Jerusalem and Judea during his ministry, He healed THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of people...only a few are recorded in the gospels or it would fill many volumes
Interesting to note that some on his own people wasn't convinced of this. We learn about the doubting Thomas and of course our friend, Judas. And where in the world did you dig up this information about jesus healing the whole entire region? Sounds like a story for hopefuls. HA! Next thing they'll feed you that the oranges grew to the size of basketballs.

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

But it wasn't. And remember even the curing disease in the whole entire region wasn't mentioned in a few short words. Which i am sure had room for the bible. Like I just did.. In 7 words.

Jesus is God and God is omnipotent, right? This means that Jesus spoke knowing that His words would fall on deaf ears. Having such foreknowledge and yet speaking anyway implies that there was another purpose behind His words.

Suggesting that the Almighty failed in anyway is silly. He must merely think it and it would be so. If something did not happen, it is because He did not want it to.

**cough**

Right! I mean that is Jesus himself who was up there talking to these people! Who else better can convince Christianity if it isn't the founder? If Jesus can't then Christianity fails.
*sniffle sniff*

perhaps God created weeds like yourself, along with the wheat?
Exactly, huh? Weeds are weeds and never can become wheat. So God created weeds like me, not by my choice nor my free will mind you, but gods choice, whom shackled my thoughts to think like I do (weed think, not wheat think like you), just waiting to gather up loads of good burning weeds and use that county burning permit.

Not a cop out, just replying to your letter explaining that god created me as a weed. At least that was the message I got.
And how can imagining a God be more important than my family and friends, whom are real and loving towards me and I to them? Do you think i would take Bible passages from 5 million years ago and considered relevant of my life today? no. Magic and fear isn't useful.

Sure, if you wish to view people that way. I view people much more warmly and I found that they respond in kind.

Artificial smiles are easily detected and people generally can sense a person who view them coldly.

Oh im sure you are all for showing warmth and fuzzy in reality. But i am questioning this because you made it in Tuscan without trying to buy me a beer. Whats up with that?

Next time then?

Got cha. Maybe when I get my pool built, I'll get you over here and you and my wife can tag team your Christian beliefs to me. It'll be a hoot.

Shit, she is so Christian, she has books from church she studies. I have ALLLLLLLLLL the information I could possibly have for research from Hell to heaven. If I am bored, I'll look at a few pages while I take a shit.

She is still waiting for me to return again to the altar and land on my knees and commit to jesus. Remember? I used to be born again as well.

Sorry, but this:

Right! I mean that is Jesus himself who was up there talking to these people! Who else better can convince Christianity if it isn't the founder? If Jesus can't then Christianity fails.

Does not answer this:

Jesus is God and God is omnipotent, right? This means that Jesus spoke knowing that His words would fall on deaf ears. Having such foreknowledge and yet speaking anyway implies that there was another purpose behind His words.

Suggesting that the Almighty failed in anyway is silly. He must merely think it and it would be so. If something did not happen, it is because He did not want it to

lol I do try.

Jesus is God and God is omnipotent, right?
There are clues that God is not omnipotent, at least to a Man's understanding. If there is a question of not, then God is other than omnipotent.

For example, I can make an argument that god failed in succession of making Man's soul pure by telling them not to eat apple, eliminating sin by drowning, and then tried again by sending his Son. Which none worked.

This means that Jesus spoke knowing that His words would fall on deaf ears. Having such foreknowledge and yet speaking anyway implies that there was another purpose behind His words.
I am making an argument that Jesus probably spoke to a new audience by looking for more paying followers. Remember Jesus only survived by donations. He didn't have a job. Maybe fix a wooden object or two but we never learn of him carrying around his work bag of tools. So when he noticed his old patrons falling to the wayside of boredom, he looked like a starving salesman up there on stage.


Suggesting that the Almighty failed in anyway is silly. He must merely think it and it would be so. If something did not happen, it is because He did not want it to.


I know we can go round and round with this but I am showing a sound argument that the Bible is no way absolute.

There are clues that God is not omnipotent, at least to a Man's understanding. If there is a question of not, then God is other than omnipotent.

Cool, mind elaborating on these clues?

For example, I can make an argument that god failed in succession of making Man's soul pure by telling them not to eat apple, eliminating sin by drowning, and then tried again by sending his Son. Which none worked.

God placed the serpent in Eden because He wanted Adam and Eve to sin. The flood was never intended to eliminate sin and Jesus being sent to Earth was not for the salvation of all. What else you got?

I am making an argument that Jesus probably spoke to a new audience by looking for more paying followers. Remember Jesus only survived by donations. He didn't have a job. Maybe fix a wooden object or two but we never learn of him carrying around his work bag of tools. So when he noticed his old patrons falling to the wayside of boredom, he looked like a starving salesman up there on stage.

And the argument that God, in human flesh, needed to resort to magic tricks to survive is not a very good one.

I know we can go round and round with this but I am showing a sound argument that the Bible is no way absolute.

As am I. The difference between our agruments is that mine addresses yours while yours dances around mine.

God placed the serpent in Eden because He wanted Adam and Eve to sin. Find me a verse that God said that. No?

The flood was never intended to eliminate sin
Does god hate man or sin?
and Jesus being sent to Earth was not for the salvation of all. Wash the sin.....?



And the argument that God, in human flesh, needed to resort to magic tricks to survive is not a very good one.
I never made the insertion that Jesus was god. jesus was in fact man. So yes he had to resort to magic tricks and boasting of his godhood.



The difference between our agruments is that yours addresses mine while mine dances around yours.
fixed thus from above.

Does god hate man or sin?

god hates the man, god CREATES the sin as an excuse for punishing the man.

god tells US to hate the sin that he created, establishing the punishment he wants to inflict on us as good.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

god hates the man, god CREATES the sin as an excuse for punishing the man.

god tells US to hate the sin that he created, establishing the punishment he wants to inflict on us as good.

Yup, God could have created the lie that there is sin so we can continue being tricked into thinking god really loves us while he suffocates us under water or burns us alive. WOOT FUN! THANK YOU JESUS!

What you call evil is survival or sick.

human evil is a "lie" now?


no, sinning against god is a lie.

1. there is no god to sin against, so any such sin is as fabricated as the god is.

2. sin is a matter of opinion, if god says liking green instead of blue is a sin, and you like green, you are a sinner without any evil having happened.
EXCEPT that evil committed by god in creating the arbitrary sin.

Quote:Originally Posted by honegod

"sin is a matter of opinion"

tell it to the Judge

like that would do any good.
he is just as likely to decide that telling him anything is suddenly a sin too.

that is what happens when you believe in reletive morality, instead of absolute morality, what is or is not bad becomes a matter of whim rather than a constant that can be used as a firm foundation to base moral decisions on.


no wonder nonbelievers have nothing but distain for the terrorist whimsy y'all True Believers treat as Absolute Truth.

Quote:
that is what happens when you believe in reletive morality, instead of absolute morality, what is or is not bad becomes a matter of whim rather than a constant that can be used as a firm foundation to base moral decisions on.


exactly

so why do you choose a moral guide that "chooses to allow immorality for a limited time" ?


if it is immoral it is immoral and that CANNOT BE CHANGED, yet allowing immorality for a limited time establishes that morality is a variable depending on conditions, rather than an unchanging absolute.

so your gods morality is a conditional morality rather than an absolute morality and so is absolutely worthless as a moral guide.