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Join in on this Discussion and see the pictures. Click here-> : Forklift Driver making 100k, goes bankrupt - Check this out


SpartanTS
09-22-2005, 11:37 PM
Autoworkers who used to thrive on overtime now find it tough to keep up their lifestyles.

Oscar Gray achieved the good life during 28 years of hard work at Delphi Corp. -- a six-figure income, a nice home in Holly and two vehicles.

But as Michigan's auto industry tanked in recent years, the forklift operator lost huge amounts of overtime pay and gradually sank into financial ruin. Saddled with $469,000 in debt, he declared bankruptcy last month.

Gray isn't alone. Once the symbol of blue-collar prosperity, Michigan autoworkers are going bankrupt in alarming numbers as vehicle production declines and overtime pay dwindles.

The United Auto Workers' legal department has handled the bankruptcies of nearly 10,000 of its members, retirees and their families in Michigan since 2002, according to Detroit News research of court records. UAW lawyers estimate that Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 filings in Michigan have been growing at a 10 percent annual clip in recent years.

The bankruptcies show that many Michigan autoworkers are failing to scale back their lifestyles in the face of massive changes slamming the state's bread-and-butter industry.

Gray didn't lose his job. His health isn't failing, and he is not going through a divorce -- the typical reasons many declare bankruptcy.

Gray has been losing overtime. His gross pay was cut $16,000 one year, sliding to $87,000, and may dip again because Delphi is considering a Chapter 11 filing.

"You count on something your whole life and then it gets jerked around," Gray said.

While layoffs have soared, it's often autoworkers still on the job who are drowning in debt.

Loss of overtime is one of the top reasons autoworkers have sought bankruptcy protection the past four years, say attorneys for UAW Legal Service Plan. The plan provides free legal aid to UAW members, retirees and immediate family members.

The typical autoworker in Michigan has lost five hours of overtime per week since 1997 -- which means an average annual loss of $10,000 per worker, according to the Michigan Department of Labor & Economic Growth. For workers in the hardest-hit plants, the loss of income can be far greater.

Overtime at major factories, such as Ford Motor Co.'s Wayne and Wixom assembly plants and General Motors Corp.'s Pontiac East plant, has dropped sharply or been eliminated. In years past, workers at those plants regularly clocked significant overtime.

In addition to a drop in overtime pay, annual cash bonuses paid by Detroit automakers to factory workers have declined in recent years as profits have decreased or disappeared. At Ford, where bonuses averaged $6,700 as recently as 2000, profit-sharing payouts averaged $600 for 2004.

Lavish lifestyles persist

Despite the loss of time-and-a-half pay, some Michigan autoworkers continue to live large.

Many bankrupt autoworkers own two homes -- one is usually up north -- which means multiple mortgages. Most have two or more cars and sometimes a boat or snowmobile payment, according to information culled from cases filed by autoworkers in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Eastern District of Michigan.

The Detroit News reviewed 88 Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 bankruptcy cases filed by UAW Legal Services in the past six months. Of those, 23 were active autoworkers who didn't appear to have catastrophic medical bills based on the creditors listed.

Many broke autoworkers have tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt. Target, Best Buy and Home Depot are common creditors seeking payment.

Autoworkers aren't the only ones who live beyond their means. Too many American workers don't save enough money, a host of studies show.

"What's unique to autoworkers is that their lifestyle was dependent on overtime pay, especially veteran autoworkers," said Lou Glazer, president of Michigan Future Inc., an Ann Arbor think tank studying work force and economic trends.

Oscar Gray's income from Delphi's Delco facility in Flint topped $100,000 as recently as last year. But parts makers like Troy-based Delphi are struggling due to high raw material costs, weaker sales at the Big Three automakers and global pricing pressures. Several large parts makers have been forced into bankruptcy.

Delphi, which was spun off from GM six years ago, swung to an operating loss of $290 million last year and is in a three-way fight with GM and the UAW over cutting labor and health care costs. If Delphi doesn't obtain relief from uncompetitive labor costs soon, its CEO says the parts maker may file for bankruptcy.

All that means Gray's overtime isn't likely to come back soon. Other workers and companies are grappling with similar circumstances. The bankruptcy cases filed in the past six months included current workers from Ford, GM and DaimlerChrysler AG, as well as parts makers American Axle & Manufacturing Inc., Collins & Aikman Corp., Detroit Diesel Corp., Federal-Mogul Corp. and Visteon Corp.

Many workers contacted about their bankruptcies did not want their names to be published.

One assembly line worker at GM's Pontiac truck plant said he saw his annual income drop by $20,000 -- not an uncommon occurrence -- last year as demand for full-size pickups softened. "Overtime was always there, man. Maybe it would go away for a month or so, but it would always come back," said the autoworker.

When the 15-year GM veteran's overtime was cut early last year, the autoworker ran up $65,000 in credit card debt to pay for items such as his monthly satellite dish subscription. He took out cash advances to meet his mortgage payment for his Leelanau County cottage and his payments on two pickups. His overtime never came back, and in February, he filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. He's $320,000 in debt.

Debt adds up

Piling up credit card debt is the way most autoworkers go broke, says Jennifer Bidwell, an attorney for UAW Legal Services Plan.

"They still are collecting their salary, so they think it's OK," she said.

By contrast, most laid-off workers immediately cut their expenses, Bidwell says. Many bankrupt autoworkers who lost overtime fail to cut expenses in a major way.

If autoworkers are in trouble, then Michigan's economy is in trouble, Glazer said.

"They remain the engine of the Michigan economy, mainly because there are so many of them," he said. "You can imagine the ripples. If they don't spend, then everything goes down: housing prices, the number of successful restaurants, you can almost go down the line."

This is a period of record bankruptcy filings in Michigan. Personal bankruptcy rates in the state rose to an all-time high last year when more than 63,700 residents sought protection from creditors, according to court records, up 2.3 percent from 2003 and up 38 percent from 2001.

The number of bankruptcies filed this year through Aug. 30 has already surpassed 2004's record by 15,720, according to court records.

The staff at UAW Legal Service has witnessed similar increases. Two years ago, the number of bankruptcies processed by the union peaked at 3,351 and appears on pace to match that record this year. The rise is partly due to coming changes in federal bankruptcy laws that will make it harder for many consumers to escape debt. Those changes take effect Oct. 17.

The UAW doesn't keep track of how many bankruptcy cases are a result of workers who lose overtime, but "it's definitely a trend that's been going up noticeably the last several years, at least since 2001," said Matthew Mason, president of the UAW Legal Services Plan.

Five other attorneys with the legal service plan in Metro Detroit also have seen a noticeable increase in filings. All said, it was one of the top reasons many autoworkers are seeking bankruptcy protection.

The rise in personal bankruptcies among autoworkers may be "cyclical," UAW spokesman Roger Kerson said. "There's no data to show that overtime is being threatened for most of our members.

"Members could get their overtime back in the future. It all depends on vehicle demand."

In any event, another dark financial cloud may be brewing. Retirees make up another large group filing for bankruptcy, Mason said, which was a claim verified by the other UAW attorneys.

Given that most autoworkers are nearing retirement age -- the average GM worker is 50 -- the rising tide of broke autoworkers could just be starting.

http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=68488&num=20&pageNo=1

SpartanTS
09-22-2005, 11:40 PM
I may consider a career change if I can make $100k driving a forklift :D

vrooom305
09-22-2005, 11:48 PM
wtf? he's complaining that he's only making 87k a year driving a fork lift?

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 12:01 AM
87k a year and nearly 500k in debt? Only in America.

That's what happens when you give blue collar workers that kinda cash. They don't know what to do with the money and blow it. Why in the hell would anyone account bonuses/OT into their financial planning is beyond me.

IHI
09-23-2005, 12:03 AM
Damn, I'd be happy with $60k as an engineer, for a while. Union workers are outrageous in their demands for what they view as fair compensation for their labor.

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 12:10 AM
UAW is full of shit. Part of the reason why GM is in the rut their in right now.

IHI
09-23-2005, 12:23 AM
I wonder what Jimlab thinks of those UAW workers......

jimlab
09-23-2005, 12:37 AM
Question: With dwindling market share and overpaid laborers, how do you afford to put enough money back into R&D to reverse the downward spiral?
Answer: You don't.

Unionized labor is killing the domestic auto manufacturers. It's just taking them awhile to stop moving altogether.

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 09:00 AM
Question: With dwindling market share and overpaid laborers, how do you afford to put enough money back into R&D to reverse the downward spiral?
Answer: You don't.

Unionized labor is killing the domestic auto manufacturers. It's just taking them awhile to stop moving altogether.

And we wonder why we can't take on the imports. Hell at least they have their governments to bail them out of a jam. Ask Hyundai

Cosby
09-23-2005, 11:40 AM
Bring the plants down south. Problem solved.

Supper
09-23-2005, 01:17 PM
That's what happens when you give blue collar workers that kinda cash.
:rolleyes:

weren't you one of the ones that was bitching about people dropping huge generalizations on black people during alll of the recent "******" debates?

Think about that, and then read what you wrote.

Supper
09-23-2005, 01:18 PM
Question
shitting in another thread

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Sup1661/8b993e43.gif

DarkAngelKamui
09-23-2005, 01:29 PM
Guess all those Dale Earnhart Jr. collectables finally caught up to em....

DarkAngelKamui
09-23-2005, 01:37 PM
:rolleyes:

weren't you one of the ones that was bitching about people dropping huge generalizations on black people during alll of the recent "******" debates?

Think about that, and then read what you wrote.

lol, :owned:

Yay double standards, especially when anyone can go about saying the same thing about "refugees" and those debit cards that were given out being used at strip clubs and Louie stores.... :teeth:

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 01:41 PM
:rolleyes:

weren't you one of the ones that was bitching about people dropping huge generalizations on black people during alll of the recent "******" debates?

Think about that, and then read what you wrote.

:gives:
I wasn't "Bitching" at all. I clearly said numerous times that there is a difference between ******s and black people.

You can bring up double standards all day long, still doesn't change the fact that someone with barely a high school diploma can't manage 100k a year.

I guess that's to be expected. You seem offended. Hope you don't fall into the category who makes a decent amount of money, paycheck to paycheck.

Supper
09-23-2005, 01:46 PM
still doesn't change the fact that someone with barely a high school diploma
did it say that he barely had a high school diploma somewhere in that article that I didn't see?

I know many highly educated people that work in menial labor. There's another amazing generalization. (I'm not saing this guy is, just saying many many people out there are)

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 01:51 PM
did it say that he barely had a high school diploma somewhere in that article that I didn't see?

I know many highly educated people that work in menial labor. There's another amazing generalization. (I'm not saing this guy is, just saying many many people out there are)

Highly educated as in what?

It's a fucked up world when R&D Engineers make less than some forklift driver. Anyone with an 8th Grade education can drive a forklift.

Ronin-X
09-23-2005, 11:37 PM
100k a year what are they lifting? Cocain!?

SpartanTS
09-23-2005, 11:47 PM
Apparently so. GM's top execs gotta be smoking it.

Manntis
09-24-2005, 02:21 AM
this sort of thing is unfortunately common - hand to mouth, just on a higher scale.

Supper
09-24-2005, 09:18 AM
Highly educated as in what?
I work with a couple lift mechanics that were once lawyers, a couple that in their "previous" life were engineers, several people in the oil field who decided they would rather either work on rigs or be a pumper instead of working as bankers or real estate people.

Highly educated as in many different kinds of degrees out there doing the jobs that most people frown on and wouldn't want to touch.

sure, anyone with an 8th grade education can drive a forklift, but can you actually see some prissy engineer out there dealing with all the bullshit of loading trucks, moving containers, or anything else like that. Maybe they pay more because its a shit job, I know thats the way it is in several of the industries that I work in. The worse the job is the more the pay is. So if you want to feel safe and comfy in an office instead of working in the field, you have to settle for less pay. Guess its just a different world out here in the west.

2ndGen.Rocket
09-24-2005, 12:02 PM
I work with a couple lift mechanics that were once lawyers, a couple that in their "previous" life were engineers, several people in the oil field who decided they would rather either work on rigs or be a pumper instead of working as bankers or real estate people.

Highly educated as in many different kinds of degrees out there doing the jobs that most people frown on and wouldn't want to touch.

sure, anyone with an 8th grade education can drive a forklift, but can you actually see some prissy engineer out there dealing with all the bullshit of loading trucks, moving containers, or anything else like that. Maybe they pay more because its a shit job, I know thats the way it is in several of the industries that I work in. The worse the job is the more the pay is. So if you want to feel safe and comfy in an office instead of working in the field, you have to settle for less pay. Guess its just a different world out here in the west.



Don't know about that. The safety and comfort of an office really has nothing to do with pay scale. People doing menial work don't make more than those educated guys because they don't have the capability to do their jobs. Anyone in the free world could empty garbage and clean up shit for a living, it doesn't take any skill whatsoever. However, that guy cleaning up shit couldn't draw a CAD design of a new timing tensioner for a 2005 C6 Vette and have it approved by GM for production. The difference is that the shit job doesn't take brains and anyone could learn to do it. Those other jobs do.

Alex-7
09-24-2005, 12:15 PM
I'm a high school dropout!

RoadRaceJosh
09-24-2005, 05:56 PM
Shit, I went from $60k a year to less than $40k a year, a 33% pay cut, in 2003 and I have no debt from it. Shithead goes from $100k to $87k, a 13% cut, and he files banbankruptcy. That's a dumb SOB.

wonner
09-24-2005, 06:01 PM
I guess he didn't take an Economics elective in hs.;)

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