Is God the Author of Evil?

Definition:

au·thor
Date: 14th century
1 a: one that originates or creates : source <software authors> <film authors> <the author of this crime> bcapitalized : god 1
2: the writer of a literary work (as a book)
— au·tho·ri·al adjective


What does this mean and why does it get Christians so bent out of shape?

Does man surprise God with sin? Does God have knowledge of what is detestable to him? Would God recognize sin without mankind?

The question is stupid and stupid people run from it.

Here's a lol....Some say that God would melt (be destroyed) if sin touched him.

Now find the definition of evil. Is evil indifference?

one only needs to remember that God is the one Creator of all--the universe, heaven and earth, and everything that is found there. When you see that this is the case, as stated in the Bible, what other option is there? There is only one creator, no? And, since there is no up without a down, no back without a front, no light without darkness, then the only answer is yes...God created the evil that exists. To say that there is another who created evil would mean that there is someone who has power to create on a par with God, and the Bible makes it completely clear that there is only one. With God ALL things are possible--not just the good things.

short answer is yes...but for a specific duration of time, and a specific purpose: testing/maturing of the saints

Isaiah 45

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


I don't this works with what I'm saying. Maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to suggest. Try this statement. God created Murder. He does not murder, sure but without God there would be no concept of murder.

Agree?

without the Law there is no awareness of sin?

God did not originate sin, but God allowed evil, and allows Satan to do what he does, for a limited time


OK but the ability to commit sin was a creation of God and was part of his purpose. This is not saying that God sins. The idea of murder existed in God's mind before he began creation. Agree?

without the Law there is no awareness of sin?

God did not originate sin, but God allowed evil, and allows Satan to do what he does, for a limited time

so, who created sin then?

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...."

Doesnt this mean that there was NOTHING in existence at that time, until He did that? Everything that is here was created by Him, no? Or, let's do this a different way....


God created free will, am I right? What exactly would there be "free will" to do, unless God also created the option to do something OTHER THAN obey Him? The entire concept of free will requires that there be another option available other than to obey God--if God didnt create that option then who did? You cannot say Lucifer, because God created Lucifer with free will--so this concept of evil and free will to choose it existed before Lucifer exercised free will himself. That leaves only one possible creator.

God did not originate sin, but God allowed evil, and allows Satan to do what he does, for a limited time

Ask yourself this, if there was no God, would there be sin? Hopefully you come to the conclusion that no, sin would not exist without God. Therefore, God is it's author.

Now, this brings us to the question of evil. What is it?

Edit: after re-reading what I have written, I recognize the inherent weakness of my argument. Look past this and consider the question that is being posed.

Sins are actions created by humans. Evil isn’t a creation except by perception. The evil actions are done by God's creation of personality of both parties.
Thus, a man killed a mother’s son. Mother now perceives that the man is evil. The Man may not view himself as evil for man killed son out of uncontrolled anger, indifference, fear, etc, etc, etc.

Relative perception is irrelevant if you concede that there exists a God that holds the ability to judge you, potentially labelling you evil.

You have to 'do' something to be evil. You are not evil except by your actions. Habitual offenders are no longer considered evil when they stop their action. God can not judge you evil when you are not doing anything evil. Therefore just by merely sitting at your computer, absent of cyboring me, you are currently not evil. Gratskthxnewb

You have to 'do' something to be evil. You are not evil except by your actions.

So those who commit acts that are "evil" (as in acts that are generally accepted as being evil) are evil, yet by not committing these acts, they would be "good" or at the very least, "not evil". Is this what you are getting at? If so, what tips the scales enough to say that a person is good or evil, or are we leaving this in God's hands?

Habitual offenders are no longer considered evil when they stop their action.

Yeah? So as soon as Lizzy Borden finished hacking her family to bits, she stopped being evil? Was Ed Kemper no longer evil after he was arrested for his murder spree? Perhaps you meant to say that a person is no longer evil when they stop thinking evil thoughts. In that case, does a serial killer stop being evil just because he has happy, benevolent thoughts while reading his morning paper?

God can not judge you evil when you are not doing anything evil.

Suppose that one has a greater propensity for committing evil acts, I think it would be fair to judge such a person as evil regardless of what they have done or failed to do.

sin is defined as anything in thought or deed which violates the Law of God, so, yes, without God, there would be no sin...but no humanity, either...a void

Good.

God is not the author of sin...God is perfection...flawless...beautiful....holy...separa te/distinct from His creation

but sin manifests God's perfection all the more brilliantly, so He allows it for a time

think of it this way, should God have created a universe of shiny metal robots on a perfect crystal planet, where nothing ever made a step out of line? where is the glory in that? where is the struggle in that? God is a passionate Being, He desires to be exalted and worshipped...it's truly Genius

You're building a case for the necessity of evil, however, this does not undercut the fact that God created evil. You say that He permits evil's existence, yet you seem to fall just short of agreeing with me on this one. You've already accepted that without God, nothing can exist. Since God exists, everything that is can be attributed to Him. Whether something is created intentionally or unitentionally is irrelevant (though with God, one would have to think that everything was created with a purpose). Hence, if it exists, then He created it. If it persists, then He sustains it. This is the duality of God.

evil is anything opposed to God's moral perfection

Is this to say that everyone is evil, or rather, that everyone is capable of doing evil things?

you'll have to help me out, ark, you're smarter than me :)

The argument was built upon a fallacious argument. Looking strictly at its mechanics, it would be rather easy to refute.

I don't this works with what I'm saying. Maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to suggest. Try this statement. God created Murder. He does not murder, sure but without God there would be no concept of murder.

Agree?

what was the angel of death???? or is that one of those made up things to scare kids?

God foreknew evil, He did not create evil...


You are contradicting yourself. Do you see it? I know you're not a mental wimp, but seriously, are you unwilling to consider that God could have created evil? God made the way for people to oppose him.

God is not the author of sin...God is perfection...flawless...beautiful....holy...separa te/distinct from His creation

but sin manifests God's perfection all the more brilliantly, so He allows it for a time

think of it this way, should God have created a universe of shiny metal robots on a perfect crystal planet, where nothing ever made a step out of line? where is the glory in that? where is the struggle in that? God is a passionate Being, He desires to be exalted and worshipped...it's truly Genius

This quote in itself shows that God created sin for His own glory, in my opinion. Yes, God is perfect in that He never sinned. But youre forgetting something--God created all when there was NOTHING. Unless, of course, you expect us to believe that sin was already in existence before the creation and God decided to use it for His purpose that way...

God foreknew evil, He did not create evil...Lucifer was a model of perfection and beauty before he fell, but He wanted to be like God, and it sounds cliche, but there really can be only One

OK, so let me get this right.....

1--there was nothing in existence before God created the heavens and the earth. Nothing at all--meaning, sin didnt exist then.

2--God then created everything.

3--God created Lucifer.

4--God knows everything before it happens, so when God created Lucifer, the concept of sin already existed BEFORE LUCIFER WAS CREATED--God had to have known what Lucifer would do because God knows it before it happens! So the entire concept of sin existed, if nowhere else, in God's mind, before Lucifer did one thing wrong.

5--Lucifer was created with the exact capacity to do evil. Lucifer did not create that capacity--God is the only creator, remember? Lucifer didnt create himself--God did that. So, anything that Lucifer was capable of, God built him with that capability.

I am not trying to blame God for our individual sins--but the fact is simple--God created the whole concept of sin, and did so to bring glory to Himself.

but there is such a thing as direct culpability, and you can't pin that on God...Satan fell because he chose to fall, just like Adam

EXACTLY--but here's the kicker--the CHOICE to sin wouldnt even exist unless GOD CREATED IT. God created that choice to sin--it didnt exist before then. The only way that the choice can exist is if the act of sinning itself also exists.

since the fall of Adam, everyone is born evil, rebellious, and under the curse...the image of God in man was tarnished beyond repair (in the flesh)

ah, yes, the concept of "original sin"....isnt that similar to what the Catholic church says too? Anyways, I dont buy into that, personally, and I'll tell you why:

Matthew 18
The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

Before you fly off the deep end, I am not saying that not everyone sins. Of course we all do. But--those who will be found righteous before God also sinned, since no man is perfect. Therefore, sin isnt automatically evil, or else not one single person would ever have a chance at salvation. God knows we are flawed, and created us that way intentionally. But 'flawed' is NOT the same as 'evil'. Why would Jesus point out the child and tell the disciples to be like that child, if we all were evil anyways? Wouldnt there be no difference between the child and the adult if we all were evil by default?

no...i've thought about this more last night, and it's inaccurate to impune any evil to God whatsoever, directly, although He does allow it, for a time, for His ultimate glory

the verse I previously quoted where God states I create disaster and I used that to support the concept that God is the author of evil was incorrect, it was in the context of righteous judgment

I John 1

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

the apostle John saw the resurrected Lord, I think he knows what he's talking about

me thinks youre misinterpreting that verse....when they say that there is no darkness in God, they are IMO saying that God does no evil. This has already been agreed upon here. That doesnt mean that God didnt CREATE it. It means that God doesnt commit evil...

no...i've thought about this more last night, and it's inaccurate to impune any evil to God whatsoever, directly, although He does allow it, for a time, for His ultimate glory

the verse I previously quoted where God states I create disaster and I used that to support the concept that God is the author of evil was incorrect, it was in the context of righteous judgment

I John 1

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

the apostle John saw the resurrected Lord, I think he knows what he's talking about

I can still say from my position that nothing about God is evil. Yet without God there is no evil.

not addressed to you!

i'm SO sorry, m8....I was under the impression that you posted this on a public forum. So, stop complaining and just take part in the discussion at hand. Hell, I didnt even say anything at all that should have ruffled your feathers in my reply so get over yourself

Alright, let's look at this differently then. The word of interest here is "author". If I write a book, where character A gives birth to character B, did character A create character B? No, I did. It's no different with Satan, he may be the main perpetrator of evil, but God is still the author. God didn't simply "allow" Satan to exist, He created him and placed him into a world where He controls all the parameters.

Now think of it this way. God is perfection. A perfect being creates perfect things. Since everything that exists comes from God, existance is in a state of perfection, meaning that there is no way that existance could be any better than it is in its current state (note that this state changes, but looking at it outside of time, it would be a constant entity). Evil, apparently, is part of this perfect existence. Therefore, God has to be its author. Were He not, then evil would exist aside from Him, and His creation would not be perfect (due to the fact that it was created without evil and evil is a necessary component of perfection).

sure, without God there isn't anything...the issue is culpability...Lucifer burns in hell for all eternity, he is the originator of evil

if he was created with the capacity to do evil, then that capacity had to exist while God was creating him. At the same time, to have the capacity to do something, that 'something' must also exist, even if it only exists in thought. Therefore, by using only this logic as found in the Bible, it is quite clear that the whole concept of evil by default had to exist before Lucifer did wrong. There are only two other options--

1--that God screwed up....and that isnt possible, right?

2--that Lucifer had the power to create, which as you yourself have stated(and the Bible does numerous times), cannot be true because "there can only be one".

So, knocking both of those possibilities out leaves only the one that I mentioned already--that God created the concept of evil. He had to--how else would Lucifer have been created with that capability? Youre claiming that evil originated with Lucifer. Compare that thought to the fact that God knows everything that His creations will do before they do them.

youre still missing the fact that He created man TO BE REBELLIOUS--because anything else would deprive Him of His glory in saving the select few. As you said earlier, we arent robots, and creating a perfect being that never sins would not allow God the glory.

As for being personall responsible for your creation's actions--again you miss the point. If you create something with the specific purpose of being flawed, then YES, you DID make that happen. your intention from the start was to make it flawed, no? So was God's intention with us! Otherwise, it would not be so.

and just when did this fall take place?

Genesis 3?

Genesis 3? what fall are we talking about here, anyways? Are you talking about Adam and Eve, or Lucifer? Because what you said makes no sense whatsoever. Remember, we are talking about evil here and not only man's evil, but the creation and origination of evil itself.

Was Lucifer acting out of evil for the very first time in Genesis 3, or did he in fact fall from God's graces before that? Did that event cause him to be cast from heaven? Or was he already the enemy at that point?

actually, it doesnt matter either way what your answer to that is, because Genesis 3 itself points out your error:

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Here we see the serpent telling Eve that the tree doesnt hold death, but the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge, and the tree that held it, was in existence before Eve took the fruit and ate of it, wasnt it? I mean, God surely did tell Adam and Eve to eat of the trees, but not to touch that one--BEFORE they did so, am I right?

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Note this---it is very important here. GOD just said that the man now knows good and evil. So, it wasnt just the words of the serpent, but that part of it wsa the truth. Otherwise, God would have just lied. And we know that didnt happen. So, GOD knew what that tree represented before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Before any betrayal took place, that tree existed, as did the truth about good and evil that it held! EVIL ALREADY EXISTED, and your scripture proves it.

Also, you claimed that God created man to be rebellious only after the fall. If God is all-seeing, and God created Adam and Eve, then there is no doubt that He by default would have had to know what they were going to do before they did it. God sees it before we do it, remember? SO, God created Adam and Eve with the knowledge that they were going to defy Him.

One step further, since all of creation was done purposely and for God's glory, then Adam and Eve were thus created with that action in mind--how else would God gain glory from saving sinners, if He didnt introduce that ability to sin into His creation? God created Adam and Eve TO DEFY HIM--like all other sin and evil it served God's purpose!

Bottom line--God created evil. It was present before the fall, as Genesis clearly proves. It was present in God's mind before it was ever present in man's. Even in creating Lucifer, God knew what was coming, and created him with that capability. But like I said before--the capability itself to do evil cannot exist if evil itself doesnt already exist.

a good way to look at is this: there can only be one, true, example of absolute perfection, in any dimension or measure/criteria...and that perfect example is God...everything else is various (degraded) shades away from perfection...the fallen human heart is many shades removed, for the human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...who can know it?

and the really dangerous part of this is when you live is a desperately wicked age, and are continually surrounded by wickedness, you lose your sense of God's moral perfection and the infinite chasm that separates you, and start to think of yourself as "good" or "righteous"

ok, this thread is about the question of Did God create evil. Nothing you wrote in that even begins to address that. What we live with in todays age is irrelevant to this question because evil existed long before this world we see today.

Also when it comes to the example of perfection, some things are dependent on the point of view. If you are a parent that just lost your infant child to a drunk driver, for example, you would be very hard-pressed to consider the fact that it is part of God's perfect plan. But again, this doesnt address the origination of evil. The fact is this--you agree that God is perfect, meaning that God doesnt make mistakes. And yet, evil exists all around us in this life. God made that so. He could have chosen to wipe it all out permanently, but then it wouldnt be His perfect plan. God's perfection includes evil, and nothing you say will change that. There is nothing in this world that does not have its opposite.

again, not one word of any of those posts from you have any relevance to the question that was asked to start this thread. The question specifically asked if God is the one who created evil. Talking about when Lucifer fell and non-eternal beings with free will is nice and all, but let's try addressing the proof that has been put in front of you, please.

wow--thats funny....there's only one creator, and you yourself have said as much, but suddenly you think that there was another...because it suits your preconceived notion. earlier you said this:

the sequence was Creation > Lucifer's fall > fall of man

what in the bible backs this sequence?

Look--it really isnt that hard. God is shown as the ultimate--the alpha and the omega, the beginning of all, the ONE CREATOR, omnipotent, all-knowing and all-seeing. How in the world can you possibly have a God described like this and then say "oh, yeah, almost forgot, someone ELSE also could create things too..."? Show me one example in the Bible of an angel other than Lucifer that was capable of creating anything. When you cannot find that example, then please explain what made Lucifer different from all the other angels that he suddenly had the ability to do so himself.

no

God foresaw evil in His omniscience, but is not the origin of it

James 1

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

again, I think youre misinterpreting these verses, and to back this claim, I point to the verses themselves.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Right there, it shows temptation as a method of approval--a means to determine the faithful from the rest.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

This is where I think you went wrong here. This verse is about the fact that God cannot sin---it is NOT about the thought that God didnt create it.

You also said something that I responded to earlier, but that still sticks out on this. You showed the sequence of events as you believe them to be. One problem there--

the sequence was Creation > Lucifer's fall > fall of man

During creation, before Lucifer's fall, God put the tree of knowledge in the garden.....not after his fall.

I follow your logic but it's like saying you are personally responsible for everything you create does, which is absurd because we're not robots, and neither are the angels.

In my logic, God can be the author of evil and not be responsible for the sins of people.

I think what bothers people who say God cannot be the author of evil is that they think that if he is the author then he is responsible for the evil that men do.

what was the angel of death???? or is that one of those made up things to scare kids?

Is this serious?

careful

for the Christian who understands God is perfectly holy, this concept can be accepted (i.e. when one truly understands doctrine)...for the carnal mind (such as jon's) it's an invitation to indict God with evil (witness his posts) and a possible rationalization/escape hatch for responsibility, which is extremely dangerous and foolish...why even bring this up on a forum dominated by carnal minds?

ok, so you get banned for making personal attacks....

and then you come back from that ban.....

And right away, you make another?

You really need to learn a new trick, marky. You dont have any business even trying to judge me, my mind, or anything else.

careful

for the Christian who understands God is perfectly holy, this concept can be accepted (i.e. when one truly understands doctrine)...for the carnal mind (such as jon's) it's an invitation to indict God with evil (witness his posts) and a possible rationalization/escape hatch for responsibility, which is extremely dangerous and foolish...why even bring this up on a forum dominated by carnal minds?

Why would you report him for this? It's true. Do you even know what it means?

Someone reported Mark for that post?!

pfft. yeah and they got the infraction points for wasting my time :)

I blame this picture for all of our hardship . . .
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/Alex-7/fast_furious_500.jpg

LOL he reports posts? HAHA Teacher teacher, you forgot to give us homework

I blame this picture for all of our hardship . . .
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/Alex-7/fast_furious_500.jpg

Why is my picture all distorted.

Why is my picture all distorted.

I bet you're all distorted and have weird pixles and stuff all around you IRL.

I'm like the ghost from White Noise ;)

I blame this picture for all of our hardship . . .
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/Alex-7/fast_furious_500.jpg

roflcopter
im still laughing. =D

God, creator of all, indeed is the creator of evil.

From Wikipedia


Angel of Death may refer to:

In religion:

* Death (personification), death personified as an angel in Abrahamic religion
o Gabriel, the Archangel
o Malak Almawt, the Islamic angel of death
o Samael, in Judaism
o Sariel, thought by some to be another name of Azrael, in Judaism

Only dictionary YZF uses is Bible

all irrelevant.

i know.

is perfectly brainwashed. Light is quite dim for them from here on out.

It sure is relevant. Mindless drivel from your mindless source is like taking a bite out of air. No substance

Im posting on this topic as you read.