1 the hebrew slaves fled egypt following the fire tower of god

2 god killed two priests for using the wrong fire.

so there is a holy flame, a fire of god.

3 the hebrews put a LOT of Gold into the flame and out comes a Golden Calf.

4 the jews assume it was god who built the Calf and fall to worshipping the MIRACULOUS calf that formed by itself IN GODS HOLY FIRE.

oops.

if god didn't want them to worship a calf why did he GIVE them one so ostentatiously ?

if them tempting him with the gold was offensive, making all that gold turn into lead and run into the ground would have made the point to a bunch of jews, yes ?

1 the hebrew slaves fled egypt following the fire tower of god

2 god killed two priests for using the wrong fire.

so there is a holy flame, a fire of god.

3 the hebrews put a LOT of Gold into the flame and out comes a Golden Calf.

4 the jews assume it was god who built the Calf and fall to worshipping the MIRACULOUS calf that formed by itself IN GODS HOLY FIRE.

oops.

if god didn't want them to worship a calf why did he GIVE them one so ostentatiously ?

if them tempting him with the gold was offensive, making all that gold turn into lead and run into the ground would have made the point to a bunch of jews, yes ?



Which is your favorite death metal band?

Which is your favorite death metal band?

none, really, I tend more to industrial, Ministry leaps to mind :bigthumb:

or to the roots, Black Sabbath.

death metal is too middle of the road.

I just downloaded The March of the Wooden Soldiers from Babes in Toyland, excellent :peace:

followed it with War Pigs, then 'The Bells {of christmas}' by Savatage.

I test listened to some 'evanescence' I ripped for the 12 year olds new MP3 player, checking the quality of the encoding level I chose, I think it's supposed to sound like that. :blah: .

she's on her own with the usher CD. :40oz:

shucks, you've got me trying to remember where I last saw the Glorious 9th by Ludwig Van, the Ormandy, Phillydelthia Philharmonic, Mormon Tabernacle Choir version.

:bowdown: :bigthumb:

i don't remember the making of the golden calf in of itself to be a miracle.

i always thought aaron forged it.

1 the hebrew slaves fled egypt following the fire tower of god

2 god killed two priests for using the wrong fire.

so there is a holy flame, a fire of god.

3 the hebrews put a LOT of Gold into the flame and out comes a Golden Calf.

4 the jews assume it was god who built the Calf and fall to worshipping the MIRACULOUS calf that formed by itself IN GODS HOLY FIRE.

oops.

if god didn't want them to worship a calf why did he GIVE them one so ostentatiously ?

if them tempting him with the gold was offensive, making all that gold turn into lead and run into the ground would have made the point to a bunch of jews, yes ?


Good read. So are you implying that Moses was an agent for Egypt? He fucking sets up the slaves in a mountain somewhere and gets them ambushed?.

No word from Egypt yet about God's attack on it's nation during moses time.
Appearently, an organized nation never reported of suffering from a man named moses.

Exod.32

24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

dusting off bible......

Yeah. that good old black magic...

Moses somehow had a hand in the orchestrated genecide. Ran out of food?

genocide?

the world hasn't seen anything yet...men will die like flies

why is that frightening to you?

Exod.32

24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

dusted off my KJV

exodus 32:4

"And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt."

genocide?

the world hasn't seen anything yet...men will die like flies

Then what is the relevancy of this statement? How did that apply to the genecide of moses people?


And what do you think of the profound differences of the Honegod's and Poops bible quotes? There is no doubt what was revealed here. One's interpretation of god magic, other was man made. We just wont know whos right and which bible is correct.

Honegod was right. God may be clear but the fate of man is doom.

it's GENOCIDE

Exodus 32, complete context....READ before you post stupid comments, poop mis-referenced the verse he quoted

Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'

"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.

When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, "There is the sound of war in the camp."

Moses replied:

"It is not the sound of victory,
it is not the sound of defeat;
it is the sound of singing that I hear."

When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

He said to Aaron, "What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"

"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered. "You know how prone these people are to evil. They said to me, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' So I told them, 'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.' Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!"

Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

I stopped after Exodus 32, the story about genecide. I would have had read more, but whatever you offer after that verse would likely be full of bias rhetoric fluff.

I offer fact with which we both witnessed the two genuine approach to a biblical line.

i see. I fucked up

One of the worst blasphemies in all of the Bible was the sin of the Golden Calf. The Jewish people just received the Ten Commandments...and what did many of them do? They demanded that Aaron the High Priest create a Golden Calf for the Jews to worship as a god. Using the Messianic Jewish reasoning, we could ask, "But weren't the worshippers of the Golden Calf Jewish?" There is no doubt that the worshippers of the Golden Calf were Jewish, but there is equally no doubt that the worshippers of the Golden Calf were in violation of the Ten Commandments. Is there anyone advocating for "Jews for Paganism?" The same argument holds for Jesus and the Apostles. Just because they may have been born Jewish, does not make their beliefs correct or Jewish.

I honestly dont understand that post :P

The one above yours.

Things like "The worst blasphamies"

And this quote here:

Using the Messianic Jewish reasoning, we could ask, "But weren't the worshippers of the Golden Calf Jewish?"

Ok, first off, what in the world are you talking about "Messianic Jewish reasoning?" I wasn't aware that it was different from any other follower of Christ.

Second off, why even bring that up? What's it have to do with anything? Who cares if the worshippers of anything were jewish? I mean I know theres jews here worshipping Kali, so what does that entail?

I wont even get into the rest of that post. It really just blew me away.

I just copied and pasted it....seemed like it fit in with the golden calf thing. Sorry to offend

I'm not offended.

I'm just trying to be nice.

But since you pasted it, and it was not your own writing, I can now say that whoever said that is totally clueless about not only Jews, but Christians, the Bible, and the Torah.

Avoid anything by that writer like the plauge of ignorance it is.

Interesting thing about it was that it was written by a Jew

Most Jews I run into have NOT read their Torah

Just like most Catholics have NOT read their bible.

Funny how the most religious of us totally miss the mark.

What do you mean by missing the mark?

the thing about the jews god is that he specifically ordered them to worship nothing but him.

god did not tell the jews to worship jesus.

did jesus ever specifically say "bow down and worship me because I am god " ?

no special interpretations of parables, no "he MUST really mean...", or "it is obvious from the context..."

just yes, or no.

as far as I know it is "no", jesus' divinity is only inferred, he never oughtright claimed to be god.

which means that god forbade his jews to worship jesus, just like he forbad them to worship the calf.

note, the gold could have melted into the SHAPE of a calf and tools were used to do the detail work, nostrils and the like.
so explaining-it-to-moses boy could have just basically polished up the work of the sacred flame with all the tools mentioned, yes ?

I am seeing it as being similar to the daughter murderers vow, "whatever form you want it to be lord"

the thing about the jews god is that he specifically ordered them to worship nothing but him.

god did not tell the jews to worship jesus.

did jesus ever specifically say "bow down and worship me because I am god " ?

no special interpretations of parables, no "he MUST really mean...", or "it is obvious from the context..."

just yes, or no.

as far as I know it is "no", jesus' divinity is only inferred, he never oughtright claimed to be god.

which means that god forbade his jews to worship jesus, just like he forbad them to worship the calf.

note, the gold could have melted into the SHAPE of a calf and tools were used to do the detail work, nostrils and the like.
so explaining-it-to-moses boy could have just basically polished up the work of the sacred flame with all the tools mentioned, yes ?

I am seeing it as being similar to the daughter murderers vow, "whatever form you want it to be lord"


You are SOMEWHAT correct in the ideas for SOME of these claims

Jesus did not tell us to worship him, in fact he humbled himself and at times would not even reveal who he was, so that God might be praised.

Though, Jesus DID claim to be God, quite a few times. Check out almost the ENTIRE GOSPEL OF JOHN.

Also, ever wonder why when Jesus said "I AM" the jews tried to stone him? THEY knew what he was talking about.

Jesus IS God, and Jesus WAS flesh, the son of man, who sits in judgment.

dusted off my KJV

exodus 32:4

"And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, "This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt."

oh yes, there are several mentions of the gold being worked on with tools.

but the one I chose was where aaron was explaining to moses what happened, face to face.

the streight poop, as it were.

"Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off."

note the "break it off" of the KJ version.

aaron, being moses sidekick might think to really let god choose his idol, so he BREAKS jewelry to show that the man made elegance is nothing, and throws the raw gold into some sacred fire, lets it melt, removes the fire {back to the sacrificial altar}, and lets the gold cool into whatever shape god wants.

god already having shown an interest in playing tricks with His fire

remember, moses was RIGHT THEN up on the mountain GETTING the commandment against making idols.


oops.

what's with runaway, opressed, hated, slaves having all that Gold jewelry ?

in kids Books the Calf is like 15' tall and weighed tons.

I note that the confiscated* gold DID disappear.

*"And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me:"

I am astonished that moses didn't go back up the mountain and be taken bodily to heaven by the hand of god, along with 144 heavily laden with dirt pack mules.

shortly before pharoahs army showed up looking for the jewelry.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

the jews tried to stone him?

if I was choosing a dream olympic stoning team from anywhere in history those jews would be my first pick, so what happened to spoil their aim ?

wouldn't THAT be a more suitable mode of jewish human sacrifice ?

crucifixion was NOT how got told the jews to punish the sin that jesus became.

what punishment DID god specify for a jew falsly claiming to BE god ?

like the antichrist, who also calls on the power of god to return from death.

the scripture is clear he led the children of Israel in idolatry

remember, moses was RIGHT THEN up on the mountain GETTING the commandment against making idols.

the Law OF MOSES.

he was apologising for the PARTY.

imagine his suprise to find out it is the Holy Idol that he worked so hard on that has so fashed god and his pet murderer, moses.

LITTLE EXPECTING THAT ANOTHER MASS HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS IN THE WORKS.

honegod, you've really lost it.

You used to be able to put a decent argument up and back it with a few interesting quotes

But with those things addressed, you're really just ignoring and warping everything you can so that you can mock us.

Why do you even do that?

I mean, it's not like you've got genuine issues with the bible or anything anymore, you just seem to bring up points against your own warped versions.

Can you even tell the difference anymore?

Seriously, you're at the level right now just arguing that Aaron was telling the truth when he said "the calf just popped out of the fire" when only a few verses earlier it said that was not the case?

And saying things like Christ never claimed divinity?

What are you hoping to gain from the time you've invested here, typing off your own warped passages from a book you barely understand?

contradictory statement, since Christ was and is fully God

I dont think it's contradictory.

Think aspects.

But Christ is definitely fully God, yet also he WAS the Son of Man.

messiah means "the annoited one" yes ?

is god the annoited one ?

is god the SAME as the annoited one ?

how is the god of glory so fierce that moses had to protect the people from seeing HIS face just because he had SEEN god going to slip on a flesh garment and walk as a man ?

no way.

jesus was no more god than was the calf.

or the cross.

honegod, you've really lost it.

you're really just ignoring and warping everything you can so that you can mock us, you just seem to bring up points against your own warped versions.


parables, to illustrate the point.

even reading yzf's Doctored version I see aaron as trying to be helpful and getting slapped down like in the servant with the money parable.

How bout you two try stuffing your bibles into your ears to prevent honegod's words capturing your thoughts. Nothing gets pass the bible

messiah means "the annoited one" yes ?

Yep

is god the annoited one ?

Yep

is god the SAME as the annoited one ?

Yep

how is the god of glory so fierce that moses had to protect the people from seeing HIS face just because he had SEEN god going to slip on a flesh garment and walk as a man ?

no way.

Yep way.

To see God is to see yourself, and realize how far you are from good.

Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep way.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20011225.htm

"And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him. You know the word which He sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ, He is Lord of all, the word which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him."

"And we are witnesses to all that He did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree [see Stauros]; but God raised Him on the third day and made Him manifest; not to all the people but to us who were chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that He is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His Name." (Acts 10:34-43 RSV)

none of that indicates that jesus was god incarnate, rather it is describing a high power prophet, ENDORSED by god.

as in he wasn't, and then god decided that he was and made it so.

god anointed a man, he did NOT create another god to be worshipped as his EQUAL.

none of that indicates that jesus was god incarnate, rather it is describing a high power prophet, ENDORSED by god.

There you go again, being deliberately obtuse.

Thats like saying none of my shoes indicate whether my gas tank is full.

Lets look at the gas gauge now, did you miss the first chapter of John?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There you go again, being deliberately obtuse.

Thats like saying none of my shoes indicate whether my gas tank is full.

if an inevitable consequence of filling your gas tank was spilling gas on your shoes, and your shoes had no traces of gas on them as you stand at the pump, it would be reasonable to assume your tank was not yet full, yes ?

if ONE part of the bible in no way indicates the divinity of jesus the anointed one, it seems rather an important bit to leave out in such a description.



Lets look at the gas gauge now, did you miss the first chapter of John?

Originally Posted by John, Chapter 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


right off I notice a complete lack of jesus being mentioned by name.

so we have an UNLABLED guage, that we are told is the gas guage.


"And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

maybe it was better in the original greek.

:bowdown: :40oz:

"deliberately obtuse"

honegod's arguments are touching on an ancient and interesting argument.

how can god be 'one' when he is also three? which is god? the father, the son or the holy spirit?. the current answer of 'the trinity' states that all three are god. they are three distinct beings who share one common essence. i guess you could compare it to hindu-ism, where lesser deities and other gods are all 'aspects' or 'faces' of the singular divine essence brahman. although i suspect yzf will particularly dislike this comparison.

an argument like that deserves its own thread, at any rate.

"deliberately obtuse"

more "explain it to me as though I were a little child." because when I try you HATE what I come up with.

the bible is supposed to be exact literal truth.

AND the bible is meant to be interpreted by CONTEXTUAL inference.

AND the bible is a mixture of allegory and history.


a big part of my "problem" is getting the literal truth parts mixed up with the allegory bits, it seems.



is yzf permabanned ?

what happened ???

the bible is supposed to be exact literal truth.

AND the bible is meant to be interpreted by CONTEXTUAL inference.

AND the bible is a mixture of allegory and history.


a big part of my "problem" is getting the literal truth parts mixed up with the allegory bits, it seems.

Nah, I think your problem is you deliberately warp the word so you have something to argue with.



is yzf permabanned ?

what happened ???

Somehow, he pissed off Cosborne.

Nah, I think your problem is you deliberately warp the word so you have something to argue with.

heh.

yzf spoke of needing special lenses to look at the data through so the data could be interpreted PROPERLY.

I find it constantly interesting that it takes NO changing any WORDS in the bible to transform the god of the bible into a malicious god of hate.

as in the words that are in the bible DO describe a vicious monster, and it takes special interpretations of what the bible says to imagine that he is not.

The Bible appearently didn't come with instructions of how to interpret the content material. Nor did I get my special goggles when I somehow obtain my copy. I would assume the words, contained in such, must be defaulted exactly what the Authors wrote literally.

After all, wasn't this a serious approach on the author's behalf? Didn't they have the time to write their subject matter clear? Or did they run out of words in their dictionary and didn't know how to put the adj 'Loving' before God as he was destroying little kids?

Really...
YZF the only xtain here to disagree with this?
Weak.

OK. I'll give it a shot.

There can be only 1 correct interpretation for any scripture and that is the intended meaning from the original author.

Is the Bible hard to understand? Yes, most certainly it is. Apart from the obvious problems of reading a book written in 3 ancient languages, there is cultural, geographic and historical relevance that is lost in any translation. Aside from those issues, often the verses themselves are mysterious on purpose. Even Peter describes Paul's writings as hard to understand. Why is this? This is because the author desire's your attention before he will give you understanding. How do you gain understanding of the difficult verses? Humble yourselves. Think about what you're reading. I know from reading what you guys write, and I'm speaking directly about honegod and czarofzar, that neither of you two desire to understand God on his terms. It is a joke to you. You are fortunate that grace has been given to you that you even have access to God's word. If you want to understand God, change your attitude.

heh.

yzf spoke of needing special lenses to look at the data through so the data could be interpreted PROPERLY.

I find it constantly interesting that it takes NO changing any WORDS in the bible to transform the god of the bible into a malicious god of hate.

as in the words that are in the bible DO describe a vicious monster, and it takes special interpretations of what the bible says to imagine that he is not.

If you study it, you will find it shows you the way, and how to interpret it.

Also, thats just the thing, you don't post things verbatim (at least anymore).

You used to, though.

There can be only 1 correct interpretation for any scripture and that is the intended meaning from the original author.

a big part of the problem also is that there are TWO bible authors every time a pen touched paper.

there is god, the stern master of troublesome slaves showing how much better than us he is.

and there is the terrified slave who is trying to reassure the spoiled three year old with a flamethrower who is reading over his shoulder, that everybody thinks he IS scarey so he doesn't need to burn down the house, again, just yet.

although when he DOES finally decide it is time to burn everybody it is a GOOD thing that he decides to do so, they deserved their fate for being so naughty and not following orders.

I am specifically thinking about "It's a Good Life" (The Twilight Zone)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29

Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

Six-year-old Anthony Fremont looks like any other little boy, but looks are deceiving. He is a monster, a mutant with godlike mental powers. Early on, he isolated the small hamlet of Peaksville, Ohio. In fact, the handful of inhabitants do not even know if he destroyed the rest of the world or if it still exists. Anthony has also eliminated electricity, automobiles, and television signals. He controls the weather and what supplies can be found in the grocery store. Anthony creates and destroys as he pleases, and controls when the residents can watch the TV and what they can watch on it.

The adults tiptoe nervously around him, constantly telling him how everything he does is "good", since displeasing him can get them wished away "to the cornfield", where they are presumably met by a less-than-happy ending. Finally, at Dan Hollis' birthday party, Dan, slightly drunk, can no longer stand the strain and confronts the boy, calling him a monster and a murderer; while Anthony's anger grows, Dan begs the other adults to kill Anthony from behind---"Somebody end this, now!"---but everyone else is too afraid to act. Before he is killed, he is shown, indirectly by his shadow, transformed into a Jack-in-the-box. His widow breaks down, but no matter what happens, the people of Peaksville make sure to think only good thoughts and repeat "That's a real good thing that Anthony did!" and "It's a good life."

Spoilers end here.



Is the Bible hard to understand? Yes, most certainly it is. This is because the author desire's your attention before he will give you understanding. How do you gain understanding of the difficult verses? Humble yourselves.

so I have to say "it's a GOOD book that god wrote." over and over in my head until god decides I am humble enough for him to let me see what the bible REALLY says.

It was a touching story and all, but it hardly had anything to do with the post you supposedly responded to.

Perhaps Honegod is one of the authors of the Bible, and we need a special lens to understand him?

More likely he got wrapped up in making a point and forgot the part linking A to B. I do that a lot.

It was a touching story and all, but it hardly had anything to do with the post you supposedly responded to.

???

the post was assuming that there was a SOLE author of the bible, god.
and so a sufficiently careful reading could uncover exactly what god wrote.

I was pointing out that it was NOT just god who decided what to write because he had OTHER PEOPLE write it FOR him.

not dictation, where the writer transcribes what he is told word for word, like mohammed did {sort of, god told an angel who then told the words to mohammed who then told them to someone who could write.}

no the bible is INSPIRED, where the writers just wrote whatever god made them FEEL like writing.

and what feeling does god want to inspire in humanity ???


Deut.4
[10] Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.


Josh.4
[24] That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, that it is mighty: that ye might fear the LORD your God for ever.


2 Kings.17
[25] And so it was at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they feared not the LORD: therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which slew some of them.
[28] Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.
[32] So they feared the LORD, and made unto themselves of the lowest of them priests of the high places, which sacrificed for them in the houses of the high places.
[36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.
[39] But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.


1Chr.16
[25] For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.

Job.1
[1] There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
[8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?






Job.2
[3] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job.3
[25] For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.



Job.9
[34] Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
[35] Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.



Job.28
[28] And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Pss.2
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.


Pss.25
[12] What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
[14] The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.



so since I do not rejoice by trembling in fear god will not shew me his covenant.

OK. I'll give it a shot.

There can be only 1 correct interpretation for any scripture and that is the intended meaning from the original author.

Is the Bible hard to understand? Yes, most certainly it is. Apart from the obvious problems of reading a book written in 3 ancient languages, there is cultural, geographic and historical relevance that is lost in any translation. Aside from those issues, often the verses themselves are mysterious on purpose. Even Peter describes Paul's writings as hard to understand. Why is this? This is because the author desire's your attention before he will give you understanding. How do you gain understanding of the difficult verses? Humble yourselves. Think about what you're reading. I know from reading what you guys write, and I'm speaking directly about honegod and czarofzar, that neither of you two desire to understand God on his terms. It is a joke to you. You are fortunate that grace has been given to you that you even have access to God's word. If you want to understand God, change your attitude.

Thx for replying...

God made us all different. Only trait I share with anyone is that we all approach life differently. It is without reason...without desire to change.

I dont have access to God's words. What you consider god's words goes against the very grains of my perceptions. Not your fault you are that way. And I think I like the way you are.

go here

http://shopdawg.com/navman.htm

download everything, and read it all.

{I have just started downloading neets :D }

so since I do not rejoice by trembling in fear god will not shew me his covenant.

one of the difficulties in translating the OT from its native language to english is that you will inevitably confuse words along the way. the word that usually gets translated into fear in the KJV is the hebrew word "yirah."yirah does not only mean fear. it also means awe, reverence, respect and devotion.

i hate to pull a YZF and quote from a christian website, but they are (quite naturally) ones who often answer this question.

It's helpful to note that there are eighteen different Hebrew words translated as fear in the Old Testament. (For once the Hebrew isn’t short on words.) The one consistently used for fearing God is yirah which means to respond with awe and respect and to have the same perspective on life. Proverbs 8 verse 13 gives an action definition of this fear, "To fear the Lord is to hate evil." We are to hate not only the evil in others but the evil in ourselves, especially the foolish attempt to meet our spiritual need in someone or something other than God Himself.

http://www.swordandspirit.com/LIBRARY/FAQS/Q46_50.php#anchor

learning information is yay

the hebrew word "yirah."yirah does not only mean fear. it also means awe, reverence, respect and devotion.

It's helpful to note that there are eighteen different Hebrew words translated as fear in the Old Testament. (For once the Hebrew isn’t short on words.)

like eskimoes have dozens of words for "Snow", slushy snow, hard packed dry snow, etc...
being surrounded intensly with something gets it into the language.

Fear, being holy, is clearly a big thing among jews and their cults, christianity and islam.

god killed the children of Egypt to instill awestruck FEAR into His jews.

learning information is yay

Da ! :peace:

I just started downloading the photography zip, 7 hours @ 28.8, though that will drop in an hour, when 'steelwork' completes. :bigthumb:

{amusingly, "fear" is probably never used in any of those books [ http://shopdawg.com/navman.htm - Navy training courses as PDF's ] at all. even in the safety chapters.

I googled the bible for "fear" and got more than 700 hits.

I then searched navedtra steelworker, volumes 1 and 2, no instances of the word "fear".

{to make sure I was doing it right I searched V1 of steelworker for "cut", 611 hits. :bigthumb: }

so I have to say "it's a GOOD book that god wrote." over and over in my head until god decides I am humble enough for him to let me see what the bible REALLY says.

No. Simply read it with an open mind. I suggest you read the gospel of John in a translation you can understand, like the NIV or NKJV.

so since I do not rejoice by trembling in fear god will not shew me his covenant.

I'd say you're right. If you have no respect for God, then he's not likely to show you his covenant.

I dont have access to God's words.

Wrong. Do you live in China or North Korea? The truth is that you probably do not have a desire to access God's words.


What you consider god's words goes against the very grains of my perceptions.

What are your perceptions? Is there a God? What's going to happen to you once you breathed your last breath?


Not your fault you are that way. And I think I like the way you are.

Thanks.

Wrong. Do you live in China or North Korea? The truth is that you probably do not have a desire to access God's words.

What are your perceptions? Is there a God? What's going to happen to you once you breathed your last breath?

Thanks.

Wrong? Where can I hear god's words? Certainly you can't mean The Bible? I didn't find any speakers nor a microphone to talk back. Oh, you mean god's word written down by cavemen.

No, I am seeking only GOD'S WORDS, uttered from the big man himself. Not words from some power hungry sand trash. If there is a god, what better way to change our souls is to appear right now!

Wrong? Where can I hear god's words? Certainly you can't mean The Bible? I didn't find any speakers nor a microphone to talk back. Oh, you mean god's word written down by cavemen.

No, I am seeking only GOD'S WORDS, uttered from the big man himself. Not words from some power hungry sand trash. If there is a god, what better way to change our souls is to appear right now!

you mean, like Jesus appeared all those years ago?? And they killed him, as I recall....

My point?? Simple--having God or Jesus appear will not cause all the nonbelievers to suddenly have a change of heart--most will simply find a new excuse. A very common would be the same one that wa sused when Jesus came--denouncing Him as not really who he said he was.

In the end, what you are looking for is the exact opposite of what you would need....they dont call it faith for nothing. Faith is what gets people to the kingdom---faith that they will believe even without 100% proof. If you need proof before you will believe, that is not faith at all, rather it is a lack of faith.

A lot of bona-fide atheists resented God before they came to believe that He did not exist. The more you talk to some of them, the more you see how this is true.

A lot of bona-fide atheists resented God before they came to believe that He did not exist. The more you talk to some of them, the more you see how this is true.

A lot of em? But not all of em? You just revealed your working model that has more holes than your cheese sandwishes. Lots of work for you! Good luck.

you mean, like Jesus appeared all those years ago?? And they killed him, as I recall....

My point?? Simple--having God or Jesus appear will not cause all the nonbelievers to suddenly have a change of heart--most will simply find a new excuse. A very common would be the same one that wa sused when Jesus came--denouncing Him as not really who he said he was.

In the end, what you are looking for is the exact opposite of what you would need....they dont call it faith for nothing. Faith is what gets people to the kingdom---faith that they will believe even without 100% proof. If you need proof before you will believe, that is not faith at all, rather it is a lack of faith.
If Jesus was indeed god then you are correct. But we havent estasblished that yet. Why was his followers afraid during their last days? jesus was not convincing.

Originally Posted by honegod
so I have to say "it's a GOOD book that god wrote." over and over in my head until god decides I am humble enough for him to let me see what the bible REALLY says.

No. Simply read it with an open mind. I suggest you read the gospel of John in a translation you can understand, like the NIV or NKJV.


some people will go to their grave refusing to open their eyes:


all this ignores the BLINDFOLD.


A lot of bona-fide atheists resented God before they came to believe that He did not exist. The more you talk to some of them, the more you see how this is true.


before they came to realize that He did not exist.

just like a lot of kids love santa before they find out the terrible news.
{that their parents have been LYING to them all this time.}

certainly true of Darwin, who's doubts turned to bitter resentment when his daughter passed away

two ways I see that going, either he keeps on believing in god, and hates him, or stops believing in him and hates the cruel lie that peoples belief summons into a perverted kind of existance.

'god hates me, so I hate him right back.' Mad Mel

:bowdown: :screwyou:

{I note the violence offered the girls in your attack, god has already Cursed them to eternal Hellfire for their association with me, all I can hope to do for them is to make THIS life as cool as possible before your terrorist master abuses them forever and ever, amen.}

did I mention ?

:bowdown: :screwyou:

I'm sure Mr. Darwin hates God more than ever right now

question is.....who cares

Obviously you care since thats all you can do is try to discredit Darwin by 'personally' attacking a dead man....thats a very weak argument and really doesn't hold water. Why do you glory in the fact of a man falling short of the grace of God? You too YZF fall short, we all do.

Again I will profess that the majority of Christians do not hold the radical viewpoints of YZF...and I'm sure that if his peers saw what he writes on this forum they too would have a few words with him on how he is missing the big picture.

Anyway....

As for the followers of Jesus being afraid before, during his death....anyone would be in that situation. Here is a person claiming to be the son of God, and he can't even get out of a good old beating, let alone pulling himself off of the cross.

Jesus, and God for that matter, is methodical, and architect. I've stated this before, He has never just come down and claimed, "I AM". It would be too easy that way. Thus the whole journey of his birth to the cross to the resurrection.
The same goes for creation. He designed the universe down to the sub-atomic, and did it in a manner in which allows us to study reseach and figure out how exactly he planned it.

Thats one reason why I believe that YZF and the other young earth wackados are missing the point.... If Christ was that methodical in his death, would it not be the same for the creation of the universe? God could just say it and it would be done, but I think that he is methodical, calculating, and engineer of sorts....and he proves this by his birth to his death and untimatly the ressurection.

There is a really good book that describes this, Josh McDowell (sp?) called 'Only a Carpenter' or 'Just a carpenter' forget which, but it does try to discredit the whole path to the ressurection, and finds out that it cannot. Very good light read. The author, as the story goes, wanted to disprove Christ and during the writing of the book is saved himself.

EDIT: its "More Than a Carpenter " and is only 5 bucks at amazon..

your "methodical" argument is downright silly

throughout time, when God acts, it is SUDDEN, it is POWERFUL, and leaves no question of Who He is

of course, loons like yourself deny the scripture, deny the creation account of Genesis, and deny the Genesis flood

you likely also deny the re-creation of the heavens and the earth at the end of the present age as described in Revelation

it's SUPER hack!!

Again with the personal attacks, too bad that you cannot have a good debate without a personal attack in this section....I thought that we agreed not to do this YZF, name calling in such...are you not a man of your word? Obviously not....

Quit with the personal attacks, because you only stregthen my assertion that the only way you can profess your faith is to discredit others. That is not a proper Christian attitude, and is unhealthy to those around you. Yes you are planting seeds of weeds.

Again we disagree, but I am stating my viewpoint, erveryone else can take it for what its worth...my viewpoint.

Not once have I stated that God is not all powerful, its just that I believe he does things in a controlled way. You look at it with the eyes of a two year old looking at his parents...'a magical person who can produce things out of mid air'


For everyone else, please don't think that all Christians behave like some of those on this forum....it really isn't that way.

the heretics always deny the power of God....they want a mr. rogers "jesus"
hesus displayed a 'Mr Roger' characteristic. He actually cared about people, fed them, forgave them. This is contrast to what we learn about god in OT whom you think jesus displays. I dont know where in the world you get that idea that jesus isnt a nice guy. Or a Mr Roger type.

I can see jesus now chatting to us with his sweater on looking all calm and shit, removing his sneakers. He often talks about a kingdom which are really miniture puppets, where lips never move yet voices are heard. hmmmmm similarities.

Again with the personal attacks, too bad that you cannot have a good debate without a personal attack in this section....I thought that we agreed not to do this YZF, name calling in such...are you not a man of your word? Obviously not....

Quit with the personal attacks, because you only stregthen my assertion that the only way you can profess your faith is to discredit others. That is not a proper Christian attitude, and is unhealthy to those around you. Yes you are planting seeds of weeds.

Again we disagree, but I am stating my viewpoint, erveryone else can take it for what its worth...my viewpoint.

Not once have I stated that God is not all powerful, its just that I believe he does things in a controlled way. You look at it with the eyes of a two year old looking at his parents...'a magical person who can produce things out of mid air'


For everyone else, please don't think that all Christians behave like some of those on this forum....it really isn't that way.


whatever.
xtains behave in all sorts of ways. There is only one model xtain. he died like 2k years ago.

whatever.
xtains behave in all sorts of ways. There is only one model xtain. he died like 2k years ago.

Exactly my point. The majority of Christians that I know do go damning people to hell, or saying that even fellow Christians are going to hell.. Let alone saying that they are the chosen ones...declairing a section of christians are dead in the spirt and such.

Its just like the radical muslims. When people think that they are elite, then thats when the problems occur.

We all fall short of the glory of Christ. Yes he was the model for all of this, its just funny how some try to live a small sliver of what He was about, and then profess that they are the only ones in Christ.

YZF. Please dont agree with me. Makes me soft.

who initiated it, as always, mr. hypocrite? with the "wakado" comment, and sneering "YEC" crap?

I called the yecs a wackadoo. not you...learn to read...Face it YZF, you went back on your word.


I have zero tolerance for that nonsense...show respect, and it will be reciprocated, otherwise hit the road


Why should I show respect to you?!?!? you haven't earned it, all you have spread is hate and decent in the name of God on this forum. Why should I respect anyone who would rather spread the message of death and eternal burning in a lake of fire than the spread of the Good News and the love of Christ....You fail in this aspect....sorry you haven't earned any respect in my eyes among others on this forum.



and I take that as a compliment....unless you have faith like a child, you will by no means enter the Kingdom


Again you misquote scripture and misread my statement...That scripture is talking about faith....not intelligance, which is my point. Again you fail to comprehend.



yes, I believe God, NOTHING is impossible for the Almighty....God will destroy the present universe in a moment of time and re-create it by sheer Power
where will you and your little words be then?

Again I state, God does not flaunt his power, or he would of just peeled himself off of the cross, Or better yet, he would of just came and said 'I AM'.
I don't think that you can grasp the distinction....In my viewpoint this is what God is....and to believe in this way takes a heck of a lot more faith than believing in Him as a 'magical being'. Ponder on this before you open you mouth.

you have a flair for the dramatic

out of 7,000 posts here, and many threads in this section, how many are about "death and hell"?

I'm sure it's 1% or less


Still doesn't hide the fact on what your faith is based off of. And everyone knows it. Poor argument.

And just because you have 7k posts only asserts that you have no life.





Christ will indeed show forth His power at the conclusion of the Tribulation, when the Lamb becomes a Lion and His robes are stained with the blood of many adversaries

the Cross had a purpose, God is not the milk toast mr. rogers you like to think


Good but completely off the point here.




I don't think you grasp what the Bible says...in fact, I know you don't, because you arbitrarily chuck was doesn't suit your personal beliefs and make up your own religion...I've clearly displayed your ignorance concerning the scripture several times and you keep flapping your gums anyhow


Again I bring up the fact that you like to add to bible....and we have shown this to be true several times. And I have never been one to have the vanity to call myself a bible scholar, I do know the difference when I hear some one misquote, misreperesent, twist , and bullshit themselves in to thinking that they are one

*cough* YZF *cough*

I have zero tolerance for that nonsense...show respect, and it will be reciprocated, otherwise hit the road

I guess tofu needs to hit the road too then, since you cant even bring yourself to respect him by listening to his rebukes of your pride....oh well....

you have a flair for the dramatic

out of 7,000 posts here, and many threads in this section, how many are about "death and hell"?

I'm sure it's 1% or less

You have a flair for lying

Out of 7,000 posts here, one percent would be 70. Let's play a little game, shall we??

A search for all your posts with the word "die" in them brings up 123 examples. A search for all your posts with the word "burn" in them brings up 41 examples. A search of your posts with the word "hell" in them brings up 268 examples. How about the word "fire"? 134 posts that time. Remember all the times you laughed about me and "cancer"?? 67 posts....What about "death"?? 269 posts on that one. How about "condemned"? 26 examples.

Now, I know that some of these overlap, and at the same time, this was just a simple excercise that took just a few minutes--I am certain that a thorough look at your posts will find even more posts using other key words that get to the same point. So, was he being dramatic? No, you are just being dishonest. Nothing new there...oh, one more thing--a search of all your posts in the smacktalk section alone produces 400 posts, but only because the filter will only show that many. Clearly, you have been spewing a lot more hate than you care to admit now...."I'm sure it's 1% or less".....:asshole:

Tune in next week, when little marky gets a hard-on yet again just by thinking about the destruction of others!! Face it, mark, you are addicted to POWER. That is why you claim to follow God....because the thought of that much power arouses you. You're a sick man.....you need help.

I don't think you grasp what the Bible says...in fact, I know you don't, because you arbitrarily chuck was doesn't suit your personal beliefs and make up your own religion...I've clearly displayed your ignorance concerning the scripture several times and you keep flapping your gums anyhow

you must have been looking in a mirror when you thought that one up. because you have been caught chucking parts of the bible in favor of your own personal misconceptions, and others, even the guy you supposedly respect in here, have pointed it out to you, only to be met with your continued ignorance and excuses. I notice that you never have any comment about this when it is pointed out to you, I wonder why that is....oh yeah, almost forgot, its because youre a dishonest hypocrite that is too full of himself to face when he is wrong.:bigthumb:

amen to that...I agree completely

Christ IS the model, which is why I get so tired of these cop-out losers saying they reject the Truth because of the "hypocrites"

people who say that usually have more skeletons in their closet than Hitler

....as do idiots that claim to wrap themselves up in the bible, only to pick and choose which parts of it they will use, so they can still claim to be christian and at the same time, they can have an excuse to hold on to their selfish arrogant prideful ways.

context.

as in the bible must be interpreted by context.

the interpretation that you invent is not in the bible, it is a creation BASED on the bible, just like those hollywood movies are based on actual events.

your context based interpretation is exactly added to the bible, otherwise the bible would actually say what you have to contextually interpret it to say.

---


right, edit that post, after all, "no one" read mine, right?? So you would look even more like a real ass after just saying that, if you commented on what I said...you need serious counselling.

that no one will read (certainly not me)....

riiiight.....nice dishonesty there....

examples? I quote it far more than anyone here

I dont know if I would say that you add to it, but I DO know that I have shown plenty of examples where you ignore parts of it for your own self-serving glory seeking....should we post those back up again, hypocrite?

no, the meaning of the scripture IS the scripture...it's not some kind of hidden code,

it is exactly a hidden code, hidden not by the words but by the choice of context.

god chooses the context each person sees, I see the context of a mass murderer of children and jesus, y'all see the context of the glorious sacrifice that gave you hope.


although some passages are more complex and difficult to understand than others, particularly in the epistles

poor choice of translated copies ?


2 Peter 3


...consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

the "longsuffering" Lord is the one who decided that almost all shall remain "untaught" and so inevitably "unstable".

is the word of God flexable, that it may be easily 'twisted' by the untaught ?

why does twisting the word result in a context at LEAST as stable as the twist y'all put on it ?

as in, I can twist it one way and it all hangs together that way while you twist it your way and it all hangs together too.

note, I am seeing mine as streight, triangulated "I" beams resting on the bedrock of Gods oft bloodily demonstrated Hate.

no....it can be misinterpreted by the untaught, unlearned, and carnal mind

it MUST be "misinterpreted" by the minds that god chooses to withold the ability to see the truth from.

that is specifically why he hides the truth from them, to insure that they will interpret the word in that specific way, he even sends us a wise, motivated, and powerful teacher* to help nudge us along the proper path of misunderstanding.

*satan.


plenty of those in 2007

satan does gods will well, and brings his master much glory by helping to fill Hell with misled souls to better contrast with heaven where the Hidden Truth rules.

no....it can be misinterpreted by the untaught, unlearned, and carnal mind

plenty of those in 2007

So YZF, you don't think that God will guide those who read his words and thirst to do right in his eyes will actualy comprehend?

more accurately, the carnal mind is incapable of thinking rightly about God

I hold you as Exhibit A of this

the carnal mind is only ABLE to think about god the way god ALLOWS it to think about god.

so the way the carnal mind thinks about god IS the right way for it to think about because god WILLS it that way.

and works, through satan, to MAKE SURE that the carnal mind DOES think that way.

making it the right way too.

god WANTS all the multitudes of the folks he has prejudged to hell to think about him one way and the few he has chosen to spare to think another.

the spared think it is GOOD that the majority of humanity will be punished for eternity for being decieved by the christ {anointed one} satan.

the ONLY difference between christs jesus and satan is that god likes jesus more for the bloody human sacrifice he arranged.

it is gods will that followers of satans hidden lies think the notion of bloody human sacrifice is aweful.

heh, and so do the spared, awe full.

it has nothing to do with "thirsting to do right" (because no one truly does)...the human heart is inherently opposed to God, unless God has predestined the sinner for righteouness...it all begins and ends with God


So what you are saying is that unless you were chosen, no matter what, even if you lead a righteous life in Christ, God will just toss you out? If thats the case, then why even bother? No, I can't believe this one bit. So what else are your trying to say?

And I do not believe that everyone is opposed to God and wants to rebel.




although many may want in on the "Jesus party", they will never be accepted


Man is sooooo wrong. Lets get back to basics.
We have all read it, and can all almost recite it.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Its as simple as that. Believe in Christ, that he is the Son of God and you will not perish.


I am trying so hard to reserve comment on this, but I really have to question what you are trying to say here YZF. Its almost as if your comments are the basis and an example of what you are trying to state!

We have all read it, and can all almost recite it.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Its as simple as that. Believe in Christ, that he is the Son of God and you will not perish.

Hmm sounds too simple. This word 'believe' in english probably doesn't have the gravity of the ancient greek it was written in. Not that I'm trying to add to salvation in any way. This believing is an acknowledgement of who Jesus was and acting on it in an affirmative way. Repentance is a key part also.

Do you claim to be a christian?

Hmm sounds too simple. This word 'believe' in english probably doesn't have the gravity of the ancient greek it was written in. Not that I'm trying to add to salvation in any way. This believing is an acknowledgement of who Jesus was and acting on it in an affirmative way. Repentance is a key part also.

Do you claim to be a christian?

I'm not too sure about the relavance question of if I am christian or not. I do believe in Jesus, and that he is the Son of God, so yes I try my hardest to be one, be we all fall short of His glory.


Well I am posting the before and after verses so that you can read for yourself, but it is quite clear that belief in Him will be your salvation.

An example of this promise can be seen when Jesus was on the cross as well, when talking with the two thieves on thier crosses next to himl.



10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."



In my experiance with a lot of churches, from several non-denominational to full gospel, from Methodist, catholic, to Mormon, I have always found that it is those churches that add to the simple promise of God and are the ones that you have to look out for. There are always people that say 'You have to get right with God', or 'Your salvation lies in the study of the Word' or any other hoop that they can come up with.

God will let you know what he expects from you, and what is needed. Even when I can't seem to get my ass off the couch to take a piss, He will tap me on the shoulder an tell me to shovel the snow from my neighbors walk or something else....I find that it is amazing that to do things that are needed the most are the easest things to do as well.

Well enough of my soapbox....hope I helped.

whoever does not believe stands condemned already


out of context ? not really.

even within context the point is that until belief in christ happens the default state of humanity is damned.

the ABILITY to believe in jesus is a gift, that unless given leaves the nongifted souls damned without hope as there is nothing whatsoever that can be done by any person to MAKE god not throw her into the Lake Of FIRE.

implied is a choice for a gifted to choose to NOT believe even though the blindfold has been removed by the Master.

I fail to see the perfection in giving a gift that you know will be refused resulting in the same outcome as if the gift had not been given.

I'm not too sure about the relavance question of if I am christian or not. I do believe in Jesus, and that he is the Son of God, so yes I try my hardest to be one, be we all fall short of His glory.


Well I am posting the before and after verses so that you can read for yourself, but it is quite clear that belief in Him will be your salvation.

An example of this promise can be seen when Jesus was on the cross as well, when talking with the two thieves on thier crosses next to himl.



10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."



In my experiance with a lot of churches, from several non-denominational to full gospel, from Methodist, catholic, to Mormon, I have always found that it is those churches that add to the simple promise of God and are the ones that you have to look out for. There are always people that say 'You have to get right with God', or 'Your salvation lies in the study of the Word' or any other hoop that they can come up with.

God will let you know what he expects from you, and what is needed. Even when I can't seem to get my ass off the couch to take a piss, He will tap me on the shoulder an tell me to shovel the snow from my neighbors walk or something else....I find that it is amazing that to do things that are needed the most are the easest things to do as well.

Well enough of my soapbox....hope I helped.

Maybe a little bit, but help me out. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and yet, I never ask for his forgivenance of my sin, and neither do I repent, do you think I will go to heaven?

I agreee with you about being weary of churches that add to salvation.

Maybe a little bit, but help me out. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and yet, I never ask for his forgivenance of my sin, and neither do I repent, do you think I will go to heaven?

I agreee with you about being weary of churches that add to salvation.


Good question.....made me think a little.

And of course the Bible sends a little bit of a mixed message....of course I'm not a 'great' authority on it but I keep trying.

I think that Jesus's first sermon was about repentance, without it then you may be screwed....but if your only goal is to get into heaven, do you think that God is going to see through that? I would think that would be a larger question you would have to ask yourself....and probably the answer to your question.

I believe its a matter of faith with Him, wanting to do good in His eyes, and trying your best to do so. If you do something and in your heart that brings you down, and I believe that He does let you know, well then I would think that repentance is due. And I don't mean that in a touch-feely kind of way. Trust me the burden of sinning weighs heavy sometimes,

Ultimately He is the judge, and he will see what is in you. But being saved is a work in progress and is not easy, we all fall short of his grace. Not to sound like a cop out, but it is really hard sometimes.

I believe its a matter of faith with Him, wanting to do good in His eyes, and trying your best to do so.

Ultimately He is the judge, and he will see what is in you.

Not to sound like a cop out, but it is really hard sometimes.

a good example of doing good in your heart and god seeing that and rewarding you for the good he found in your heart is abram truely sacrificing his son to the Lord, in his heart.

Good question.....made me think a little.

I highly recommend reading, no, STUDYING the bible every single day.

Not just a few lines either. :)

the Christian life was never about "trying your best"

cain figured that one out.

although what was the point of abram leading his son up the mountain with a knife in his other hand ?