I know most of what I've heard about a hydrogen cell says its not worth it but I've been seeing alot of stuff latley about a 50% increase in MPG. My Jeep, a cheap 87 junker, gets around 20 MPG in the city right now. I priced most of the stuff I'd need today and the whole thing will cost less then 50 bucks. If all goes well I might do a bit of a write up. Anyone have any previous experience on this?

I only do things that work.

I got my first cell made and put it in a friends car at work, a 88 Toyota truck. Heres some pics:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/cell.jpg
This is the outside, all put together

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/cell2.jpg
This is what the inside looks like

But the really interesting thing was his spark plugs a few days after he ran it.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/plugbefore.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/plugafter.jpg

This is the same spark plug, its a little blurry cause I cant figure out how to take a close up, but half of his plug is black and the other half looks clean as a whistle. All his plugs looked like that, and they were all black before we started so I can only assume that his motor is being cleaned up. He also tells me he feels a noticeable difference in power, His exaust is running cooler and his gas needle hasn't been moving as fast. Of coarse he's only gone 100 miles so far so I'm not claiming the 62 MPG he says he's getting after figuring his needle has moved 1/8 of a tank with a 13 gallon tank. He's made another for his son's car and I bought everything I need for my car today. It was a bit more then I expected price wise (still well under 100$) but hell, at 4.25 a gallon its worth a shot :)

Edit: I hooked it up to a switch inside the truck. When the car is warmed up and he flips the switch you can actually hear the motor change, its amazing.

Plain ol water vapor can have that effect too :)

Any concrete gains (such as actual measured increase in MPG?)

I keep telling the guy to measure his MPG, but he just says "nah, I know how much my needle will move from place to place"

Thats why I've been keeping a close eye on my jeep's MPG (18 now) so I'll have some real numbers in maybe a month.

So I can make a hydrogen cell just using abs plasitc, some threaded rod and a handful of nuts and fender washers? Sign me up!

How exactly does this work?

How exactly does this work?

The electrical current from your battery turns the water in the canister into pure Hydrogen and Oxygen gas (H2O). You just pump the gas into the intake and there you go. The way I see it the O helps burn more of the gas in there and the H is just plain explosive. I tried lighting some on fire to test it, found that bit o information out the hard way. My hand was swollen for 3 days.

If you get real results, you'll have to post a writeup on here :)

You just pump the gas into the intake and there you go.
Kind of like you would if ,say, you were going to add another injector in the intake? And how to you determine the amount to pump in? Also how do you regulate said amount? How do you pump it in? Like does it have it's own pump (like and extra fuel pump or some such thing)? Would it be feasable to just "T" into your fuel line?

Haha, if you T the fuel line you'll end up getting gas in your cell :P

Gas runs at around 38psi or so, I doubt the cell runs anywhere near that :)

I was actually thinking on the outlet side of the cell. That way it mixes with the gas and goes directly into the combustion chamber. Or does it not work that way? I would honestly like to know more about this process because I don't know much of anything about it, but I don't have much time for research ATM....

Yeah, the outlet side of the cell is prolly nowhere near that kind of pressure, maybe even relies on engine vacuum to draw out the gas,.

Also, it's a vapor, and gasoline is liquid. Lets say we do get it mixed in evenly, I don't think the injectors would appreciate that :)

Ok so you would basicly have to inject it somehow into the intake then....at that point do you just use the engine vacuum to pull it out of the canister?

It's just plumbed right into the intake and pulled out by engine vac, from what I've seen. No special injectors or anything.

Tofu has it right, I ran a hose from the oulet on the canister to an intake vacume with a check valve in the line for saftey. I dont know how much gas it makes in units per hour but it'll start to build pressure pretty quick. I just let the engine pull in whatever the cell can make. I dont think theres any more then 1 psi in the canister at any time so theres no worry about built up hydrogen exploding in the engine bay. but I'm sure if you got the canister really air tight without an escape the pressure would build up and eventually go boom.

hello any one is here

Was that a statement or a question?

its a quastion

are you for seriusly

Lulz.

OK, update. I finally got the damn thing hooked up in my car, I needed a bit more wire then I expected and ended up going back to the store for another piece. That and my battery terminals damn near fell apart when I tried to take them off... ANYWAYS.

Heres what it looks like under the hood of my car:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/Picture-1.jpg

The green wires are 8 gauge from home depot, they run from the cell to the bat - and through a relay on the + side. I've got a switch hooked up in the dash that lights up when its on. I've wired it so that it'll turn off with the key too, just in case I forget :)

I've only driven it a short distance so far but right off the bat you can tell an increase in power. I topped off the tank this afternoon for the official MPG check. I put in gas 7 days ago and used 2.676 gallons to fill up today. I went 70 miles in the last 7 days so that figures out to 26 MPG. Although that all might mean jack, since the cell has only been hooked since yesterday. Or my Jeep might just run a hell of a lot better with a full tank? IDK. Let the fun begin.

You should do some baseline stuff, first. First thing is to find where you are getting best mileage, and then driving it everywhere you can, til the tank empties. Do a month of baseline tests. Then try your gizmo.

I did the baseline last month driving it to work and back. Took a month to empty the tank and it was all in town driving. Got 18 MPG. If it really wanted to try it out I would drive around the island with the switch off, fill up and then do the same trip with it on. Sure the traffic might change a bit, but it'd be the same 200 mile trip. Of coarse I'm to cheap to pay for the gas to do that.

Also, AFRs would be nice.

Ha, theres no way I'm splurging on an AF gauge for that thing. I bought the car for 500 bucks. Slight setback today though, my inlet tube came loose and I was driving around all day with gas just pouring out the tailpipe. I'll take care of her tomorrow and re-set.

seriously need a full tank comparo.

Get at.

any updates on this, I made one for my jeep but i dont elieve it is big enough to make any noticeable difference.

I've only been going for a few days with my cell now. from just the miles and gas gauge its not looking to promising. I saw a design the other day to up the effeciency a lot, if this one doesn't work I might try that and see what happens. The problem with my particular car is that I cant adjust the fuel or timing at all and I think thats what has to happen for the best results.

Well I guess we are all trying this on jeeps then. I built one to put on my 94 with a 4.0 and we are finishing a bigger cell that is going on a 97 with the 4.0 right now. We doubled the size from mine to his and the number of plates from 2 to 4.

On mine there was no pressure build of any gass in a sealed container.

What I've seen is if you put a neutral plate between the + and - you'll increase the output without increasing energy consumption. I'm gonna try that out for version 2.0

edit: What kind of MPG are you seeing with your 4.0? A guy at work has one with a cold air intake and that fuel chip that goes into the wiring of your air temp sensor getting 23 MPG.

lol i have a k&n intake borla exhaust and im only getting around 9-11 depending on how i drive, but then again I am lugging around 32-11.50s with stock gears.

that fuel chip that goes into the wiring of your air temp sensor

That "chip" is a resistor that can be bought at Radio Shack. Tricks the ecu into thinking its cold outside and makes it run more advance.

That "chip" is a resistor that can be bought at Radio Shack. Tricks the ecu into thinking its cold outside and makes it run more advance.

Thats what I told the guy who bought it "all it is is a resistor". But since he paid 59.99 on it I don't think he wanted to hear that :blah:

Gimme plans, I'll test it on my Tracer. Last three tanks were 31.64, 31.55, 31.67, mostly highway miles.

you want version 1.0 plans or ideas on 2.0?

Whatever you have, post it up, please.

SO you are using brown gas to supplement your MPG...lets hope your car doesn't hit a brown note....

I used:

From home depot
4" ABS pipe, however long you want it to be, mine is about 8-9 in. of pipe.
4" ABS cap
4" ABS clean-out plug, it has a top that will unscrew
a plug for the top, my first one had a big square nub on top, I found a flat one at a local pluming store that works better.
3/8" SS all-thread, it came in a 3 foot section, I used about 12 in. of it.
8 strand wire, they sell it by the foot for 71 cents. I had to get the green, went with the enviornmental theam
2 3"-3" tube splicers. The metal band is SS and I used the clamps to secure it later.

From ACE
14 SS 2" washers
17 SS nuts that fit the all-thread

local plumbing store
metal or plastic (I like metal, more sturdy) screw in nipple. 90 or strait, depending on space.
brass screw in and plug, mine was 1/4" I belive.

The body is all ABS pipe because I had free 4" ABS pipe, PVC would work too. I drilled a shallow depression in the middle of the cap so that the rod can sit down in it, keeping it stable when its put together. I drilled a whole through the clean-out plug and threaded the rod down till it sat in the depression, marked it so that about an inch sticks out the top and cut the rod. I put a nut and washer on each side of the plug and smothered it with ABS glue to keep it air tight. Then, leaving a bit of room at the bottom of the rod for the depression, started threading the nuts and washers up the rod. I put the nipple and brass plug in the cap, one for filling and the other to run the hose to the intake. I took the clamps off the SS bands and used one of the clamps to screw both bands together and stuck the end of the clamp out the side for the + side. You can use some 90 degree fittings and clear hose to make a sight glass, mine didn't have room for it. I'll try to make up a simple drawing in a min here to help.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/rxtion/hydrocell.jpg

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/938147/build_hydrogen_generator_cell_with_household_items/

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4WGWVP1ORw

FUN DRINKING GAME! Take a shot every time he says "as you can see"

The first video is a bad idea, if any copper from the wire touches the water it'll start to corrode right away. The second one is impressive as hell, but a bad idea for a car because of the huge voltage draw. The system I'm trying to duplicate does the same hydrogen output for 12V 15 amps.

stuff looks fun as hell and pretty easy to build...

too bad it does not seems like i can put anything like that on my 1.8t

UPDATE:

Well I finally filled up the tank today. Unfortunatly I only got 19 mpg. I did screw up the test a bit though, I went camping last weekend and spent about an hour in 4 low getting to the spot. I re-set my numbers and I'll keep at it to see if I cant squeese out a few more MPG. I've got a few more tricks I can try and I've got version 2.0 of my fuel cell in the works. I'm determined to get 30 mpg out of this thing, if only I could tune the engine a bit it would be much easier.

update #2

I went to do a output test on my cell today and I found out that it isn't working anymore. I don't know why yet, but I'll figure it out. Or better yet finish version 2.0 and put that in, since its in a clear container so I can easily see if its working or not.

I found this website.

It looks to me like if this works there would be an optimum ratio of metal conductor to water ratio. This would change the container size. I wonder how they came up with a quart? The next thing would be maybe you could make it smaller with the same result. If that's true you could have ten of them or a hundred in line making that much more. Or if 12 VDC works how does 24 VDC work? Is it better?

Also would it be good to agitate the water? Maybe with pressure off the pcv valve or off and air pump. Maybe bring it in from the bottom to speed up the process? Is it better if the water is hot or cold? What if the water was circulated instead of agitated.

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm

http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/001.1/index.html

I've gotten version 2 up and running, its a lot smaller, puts out alot more gas (15 Liters an hour) and is in a clear container. I'll try taking a video of it when I get a chance.

15 liters an hour? That sounds like a lot. Have you put the plans up on V2?

I bet you'll get a decrease of about 4%.

Upon further research, water injection makes more sense.

Fuck that, crystal meth injection.

V2 isn't here yet. Its 7 SS wall plates connected with 2 short 1/4 in SS all-thread. the plates are + N N N N N - where N = neutral. The whole thing is in a click top tupperware tube thats about 3 liters in volume. I'll take a picture of it and try to get a video of it in action this weekend. I like this because you can see when its working and when its not. As soon as you put power to it it'll go nuts :)

That I'd like to see.

Honestly, I hope it works, much as a child hopes Santa is real.

I already know I'll be let down, though.

Well I think the trick is to find wasted and unused energy and redirect it. So in that way I think things like this are possible. But it's has to be fun to waste time on.

If I was going to make a hydrogen generator, I'd just use it to blow things up.

Yeah like a car engine. LOL

Yeah like a car engine. LOL

That's crazy enough it just might work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6wAYjvd-z4

heres version 2. It was bubbling more when I hooked it up outside the car, but I think my relay is taking a dump. Anyways I turn on the camera then go inside and flip the switch, the bubbles are basically instantly after I flip the switch. Hydrogen on the left and O on the right, you can see the difference in the size of the bubbles. The volt meter shows its not taking up much juice, and the tube is basically white with bubbles after a min of it running.

Some of the guys I work with are putting one together again tonight...I will get some details from them later.

Your meter isn't telling you shit, you need an amp meter. Voltage across, current through. And unless you are using the hydrogen and oxygen gas to get a more complete burn, rather than as free fuel, you are not going to gain any mileage unless you have a seperate battery not charged by the alternator. The extra load this system will put on the alternator will kill off the extra mileage you get burning the gas.

May I suggest a couple solar panels on the roof to charge a seperate battery used to run the Hydrogen cell. Also you may need a relay that can support more current. I'm guessing that thing is drawing like 20 amps.

And unless you are using the hydrogen and oxygen gas to get a more complete burn, rather than as free fuel, you are not going to gain any mileage unless you have a seperate battery not charged by the alternator.

it is supposed to work by enabling much leaner a/f ratios without knock than otherwise possible

some interesting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

fro the wiki - wired article on truckers using it with diesel
http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2005/11/69529

from that article - a vendor specializing in this stuff that doesn't look super shady
http://www.chechfi.ca/index.html

But to run leaner he would need at least a fuel computer and his only makes 15 liters an hour. Don't know the size of his engine but that's only 20 crank rotations on a 1.5L honda. Even if the engine only draws one percent of it's output each crank rotation it would only last 200 seconds at idle. I would expect it to take a couple hundred liters per hour to have any kind of positive effect. I would really like to see this work but there is a reason car makers aren't using this technology yet. I'm guessing he is going to use more gas from the extra load on the alternator. I'm not trying to be negative as I hope you prove me wrong, I'm just trying to be realistic.

not at all. i've never tried it and i have no idea if it really works.

i just thought the links could add to the knowledge base of the thread.

Does anyone know what the optimal hydrogen to air ratio is? I could not find it and I googled.

2h 1o.

Honest to god, water.

http://www.etvcanada.com/F/data/PDF_CHEC.pdf

"Published data show that hydrogen burns nearly one order of magnitude faster than petroleum fuels, thus approaching ideal thermodynamic cycle; and hydrogen has a shorter flame quench distance, allowing flames to travel closer to the cold zones, thus improving combustion. These hydrogen properties improve engine performance and emissions."

Its not that the car is running on hydrogen, although it's possible. The hydrogen allows more of the gas being injected to burn, which means you can use less (sometimes alot less) gas to get the same power.

Its not that the car is running on hydrogen, although it's possible. The hydrogen allows more of the gas being injected to burn, which means you can use less (sometimes alot less) gas to get the same power.

I competely understand that it's just the hydrogen to air ratio I'm worried about. At a ratio of 100 air to 1 hydrogen your rig can support 2 minutes and 40 seconds of run time at 750 rpms.

I competely understand that it's just the hydrogen to air ratio I'm worried about. At a ratio of 100 air to 1 hydrogen your rig can support 2 minutes and 40 seconds of run time at 750 rpms.

That's if you stored the hydogen. This is free flowing. So when you increase the volatage, you get more HHO.

I competely understand that it's just the hydrogen to air ratio I'm worried about. At a ratio of 100 air to 1 hydrogen your rig can support 2 minutes and 40 seconds of run time at 750 rpms.

its not a full 15L ready to use, it produces a fixed amount at a constant rate. The gas that does go down the intake will help the fuel to burn better. Its a fact that gas doesn't burn at 100% efficiency in a car motor. This little bit of gas in each chamber will boost it from 75% to 85%. Of coarse I'm guessing at numbers but you get the idea.

I understand that but the gas you are injecting is minimal. What is the displacemant of the engine you are using this system on?

http://www.etvcanada.com/F/data/PDF_CHEC.pdf

"Published data show that hydrogen burns nearly one order of magnitude faster than petroleum fuels, thus approaching ideal thermodynamic cycle; and hydrogen has a shorter flame quench distance, allowing flames to travel closer to the cold zones, thus improving combustion. These hydrogen properties improve engine performance and emissions."

If that is true, the rotary could benefit a lot from that :P

Someone needs to take over from where I left off with the vert, see if they can beat my high score of MPG :)

(28mpg highway stock ECU, 32mpg highway megasquirt)

If that is true, the rotary could benefit a lot from that :P

Someone needs to take over from where I left off with the vert, see if they can beat my high score of MPG :)

(28mpg highway stock ECU, 32mpg highway megasquirt)

The highest I got in my FC was about 26. My FB.... 19?