Why has god not performed the 'armeggedon' yet?
Why has he waited 2000 years?
Does he just want the biggest spread of people to take down?
Is he waiting for man to invent something?

Or is he afraid? He lost a third of his army in his last battle. Yet, they all still EXIST.
Is he afraid that we might just be able to defeat him?

Please, explain, rebuttal, etc etc.

I guess the best answer I can give to that from the Bible is that God has predetermined a certain number who will be saved, and His purpose for this planet is not finished until the number is achieved

in the light of 6,000 years of world histroy, 2,000 years is a mere third

2,000 from Adam to Abraham
2,000 from Abraham to Christ
2.000 from Christ's first advent to the second


So YZFife, you subscribe to the YEC mindset that the earth as being 6000 years old.

I know where the calculations come from, but can I ask you a question.....

What is the speed of light? ( This should be very easy for you to Google or look up )

correction, I take Genesis 1, Exodus 20, and a host of other passages at face value

So you made this 6000 years calculations yourself??
How long did that take you to figure that out. Amazing how the YEC have the same figure.





3.0 x 10^8 m/s

the speed of light is constant in a vaccum

but who can say exactly what occurred when God created the heavens and supernaturally inflated the universe in a moment of time?



Actually the Bible can.

Genesis 1:16
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

He did this between the third and forth day according to Genesis.

So how can you explain this, given any didstant galaxy and the speed of light is constant....why do we see light that is billions of years old, if the earth is only 6000 years old with your calculations?

Lets take Andromeda, which is 2.5 million light-years away...if the earth is only 6000 years old, then how come we can see this galaxy?

adding the generational records together provided in various places in scripture, the time from Adam to the present is approximately 6,000 years

You didn't answer my question, did you calculate this figure yourself?



wrong...the stars, the planets, and everything aside from earth was created on Day 4...the text is very clear

Fine I'll give you that....



there are various theories....light does funny things when exposed to gravity and other forces...it has been slowed to a crawl in the lab


But not that slow...come on, if it went as slow as you are suggesting then it would cease to exist as energy. I'm not that gullable, neither should you be.




creation scientists have not answered this question yet, and perhaps never will http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp


Nice to see you agree with me once....


but, again...you kind of glazed over my comment....I believe what we really see when we look at distant stars is the result of a supernatural cosmic inflation of the universe, that occurred in a moment of time....sort of a supernatural "big bang"

I'll tell you what, and just follow along here....
Genesis states that 'In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.'


It is my belief in genesis, that a 'day' is in Gods time, not mans. But man cannot comprehend a 'day' in Gods time. The earth was created in the beginning, and there is a distinction between that and the first 'day' or the seperation of the heavens and the earth.

We all know this. ( and we could have a good discussion on the term heavens i.e plural, and if it means Gods heaven or just the known universe....anyway )

But what I want to state here is that term 'day'. We all know that a day on earth is longer than on Mars, or different on any other planet. So we can discount the use of a 'day' here as 24 hrs....see where this is leading to? Also the Earth has been speeding up and now slowing down, so we cannot measure a day by the earth...it doesn't make sense as a constant.

But also, what was the time line for 'the beginning'? I could make a good case that this was outside of the first day.

Now I know you are going to disagree with all of this, tag me with some label, but I could give a crap what your idea is on this or what you call me.

My belief in God is that he is a methodical and purposeful God, and he just doesn't 'create' supernaturally for mans sake. This includes the creation of the universe. He is the great Architect.

I think that Genesis was 'dumbed' down at the time it was written so that man at the time could understand it....I'm more than positive if it was written now it would have a few equations in it....

I also think that Christ and his purpose supports this viewpoint as well. If it didn't then he would of never died on the cross, he would of just pulled himself down....or he would have just appeared, said 'I AM' and everyone would know....and people wouldn't give you so much of a hard time for missing the point ( come on you have to admit that one was funny)

Think about this, and you will see that a purposeful God will support this and your 6000 year calculation, if you came up with it yourself, starts getting a little longer.

And if you refuse to even think about it...who cares. Just thought I would show you the other side of the coin. But when I do finally meet Him, that will be one of the first questions I as Him...'How did you do it all?'.. and smile at the glory of His answer.

in the light of 6,000 years of world histroy, 2,000 years is a mere third

2,000 from Adam to Abraham
2,000 from Abraham to Christ
2.000 from Christ's first advent to the second

whoa, slow down there, tex....the SECOND advent? Are you telling us that in the year 2000, Christ came back? Me thinks you are simply assuming way too much at this point. NO ONE, and that includes you, could possibly know when Christ will come back.

Additionally, Please show where in the Bible it states that the 6000 year theory is mentioned.

NO ONE, and that includes you, could possibly know when Christ will come back.

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." - Acts 1:7


Though, God has not left us in the dark, he has given us what to look for . . .

btw, the "YEC" label is a misnomer

more accurately, it's "those who believe the Bible means exactly what it says" vs. liberal "theologians" who play word games



"God created fossils in rocks to fool us, or even test our faith, and that they don’t represent anything real (a real animal or plant that lived and died in the past). This would be a strange deception."

not strange at all.
a perfectly characteristic deception, to arrange that everybody who looks for the truth without the proper godcentric perspective should see clear evidence that there is no god involved.

faked with such precision that even the greatest minds will be utterly fooled by the far superior mind of god.

their eternal shrieks of unbearable agony a fitting tribute to gods glory.


"he did as he had vowed." really means 'he did NOT do as he had vowed.'
with the proper way of looking at it.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

"God created fossils in rocks to fool us, or even test our faith, and that they don’t represent anything real (a real animal or plant that lived and died in the past). This would be a strange deception."

not strange at all.
a perfectly characteristic deception, to arrange that everybody who looks for the truth without the proper godcentric perspective should see clear evidence that there is no god involved.

faked with such precision that even the greatest minds will be utterly fooled by the far superior mind of god.

their eternal shrieks of unbearable agony a fitting tribute to gods glory.Oh how perfectly stated, HG!
God needs us to be fooled not to believe in Him, else who would be left for Him to deliver his wrath of pain to? It's obvious that His glory is all about that delivery.

correction, fools (duped by Satan) need to believe in the religion of darwinism

and so be damned
WRONG.
Purposely duped by GOD into not believing in Him so that He can be glorified by hearing the screams of their souls for all eternity.

fossils are part of the record of the Genesis flood....period

fossils are no help to darwinism at all, in fact they are a damning condemnation of it's false claims....there are NO transitional forms in the record to support darwin's fantasy...ZERO

No, fossils are not part of the genisis flood.....period.
Out of the number of differnet strata that covers this earth, there is now way that the fossils that are in evry layer occured at once.

For instance look at the alps, which are made almost of limestone, and the shells of iving creatures. There is no way that a single flood can account for the deposite of an ancient seabed, and the uplift of those mountains at that altitude in 6000 years, let alone a singe event like the flood....

Simply a moronic, gullable, existance that you lead. :jerkit:

And btw, If you didn't calculate the 6000 years yourself then how do you know its true? I think that you should spend some time and add up the bible generations and prove to yourself what you are saying. That way for sure you would know it was true.....

Didn't Christianity really take hold around the year 1000? With the rapid decline of Christianity happening in recent times, I would say that Christ's 1000 year rule is OVER.

If god is so bad ass, why does Lucifer and his army still exist?

If god is so bad ass, why does Lucifer and his army still exist?

they are part of gods war against humanity.

the notion that satan is evil is another of gods deceptions.

satan is a GOOD servant of the Lord, executing gods malicious will on a helpless humanity.

A little extreme, but the 'pawns' theory is certainly a good one.
God could not destroy Lucifer, as he is an Angel (albeit a fallen). Thusly he seperated him using the only thing more powerful than either (man).

Mark, you make this sound like a game that god 'turned on' a couple of millenia ago just to have some shits and giggles.

So y'alls even have your own calender, huh?
Nifty.

Ah, you've been counting? I'm touched.

So we've decided that we're only waiting for more people to equal more carnage?

What are your thoughts on the creation of the soul? Is it created as we enter the world, sometime shortly before the 'creation' (pre-ordained), or is it just sitting in some 'soul line' waiting for thousands of years for one person to be born?

Hmm, a verse that I remember from somewhere. . . . interesting

So the soul is waiting to be applied then?

you're clueless about flood geology..
The Flood geology??? Thats bullshit and not true, because there is no way the type of stone, an ancient sea bed could be produced, uplifted, and eroded in even 6000 years let alone a single 40 day event.

And you say you are educated in enviromental sceince? Obviously you must of blown your professor to get that grade closet fag.



canyons and depositional layers can be formed very quickly under the right conditions

Hmm...what about mountain ranges made of the fossil shells like the northern Alps.

Again you fail to make a point....with no evedence at all, not even scientific.

Oh and BTW, I work for my 6 fixure salary, and dont rip off my company by stealing time and posting during work. Can you say that....thief?
Just cause you don't get a response during the day doesn't mean you have won the battle....what a tard and a thief you are YZFife.

wrong
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i1/grandcanyon.asp

Who woud believe that BS....oh a retard....just cause some one else put it in web page doesn't make it true. Hey want to read about bigfoot flying around in a UFO???? Its true you know!


"made of fossil shells"? :roll:

Idiot, what do you think limestone is. There is no way you ever took even a H.S. level geology class....

From Wiki....

"Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed largely of the mineral calcite (calcium carbonate: CaCO3). Limestones often contain variable amounts of silica in the form of chert or flint, as well as varying amounts of clay, silt and sand as disseminations, nodules, or layers within the rock. The primary source of the calcite in limestone is most commonly marine organisms. These organisms secrete shells that settle out of the water column and are deposited on ocean floors as pelagic ooze or alternatively is conglomerated in a coral reef ...."

Damn are you a joke, and you just got :owned:


Your Flood theories have no basis or any facts to them, other than fairy make believe volcanoes and such. Get a brain.


just keep sticking your head in the sand....you know you're gonna be humiliated before God, right?


We all should show humility before God...but you have none.


...shove your 6 figures, punk

That kind of has a nice ring to it....I'll enjoy His blessings and gifts that He provides

But and you keep stealing your salary.....come on prove me wrong that using company resources and time to post during the day isn't stealing.....you are such a hypocrite.

Um, BURN.

um...SMOKED...yet again, by YZF-R1

see, when you play games with the scripture, you inevitably get burned (literally)

95superhack claims to believe in Christ, he even claims to believe some parts of the Bible that don't disagree with wikipedia or his other trusted sources of information, but he doesn't really trust God, and seeks to strip God of supernatural power, that much is painfully (and nauseatingly) obvious...he is full of pride, and full of error

in short, he's a fraud and an idolater, but he'll spew names at me for a few more weeks and then slither back under the rock he climbed out from under, because I steamroll hacks with the Truth...five years and counting

Really too bad you took psalm 104 out of context to your warped sense of Christ. You mold His word into something that isn't there.

BTW, call me all the names you want,again, you can't hold a serious debate anyway. So what If I referance any online encyclopedia, its only to educate your sorry ass, I could take any point from a number of sources, but its just too easy to reach for the search bar in firefox.

And who wants to argue with a retard as yourself YZFife...You actually think that you are winning something? Is that how you feel good about yourself. Thats too sad....You have nothing redeeming to say, and your not the lighthouse like you should be in Christ.

Five years and counting? WTF, who gives a shit that you can be a proven idiot for five years....why brag about that?

Go steal some more of your employers time thief....

so flood geology postulates that the world was pretty flat, no real mountains or oceans, before the flood.
comes the flood and the water gushes up from inside the earth destabilising the geology and causing all the mountains to rise and oceans to sink, giving all the 'new' water a place to go.

which then raises {heh} the question - where did the hundreds of yards of accumulated seashells found atop the mountains have TIME to accumulate BEFORE the flood raised them, stopping the accumulation ?

um...SMOKED...yet again, by YZF-R1

see, when you play games with the scripture, you inevitably get burned (literally)

95superhack claims to believe in Christ, he even claims to believe some parts of the Bible that don't disagree with wikipedia or his other trusted sources of information, but he doesn't really trust God, and seeks to strip God of supernatural power, that much is painfully (and nauseatingly) obvious...he is full of pride, and full of error

in short, he's a fraud and an idolater, but he'll spew names at me for a few more weeks and then slither back under the rock he climbed out from under, because I steamroll hacks with the Truth...five years and counting

1--you havent SMOKED shit, there, tex....but keep telling yourself that you have....a dream only dies when you stop thinking it is possible!!

2--so, since you hide your sin from your church, and therefore, since you go against the scriptures every day by pretending to be what you're not, then I guess that means your own fate is both inevitable and fiery. Good call.

3--he doesnt trust God? How much can YOU seriously trust God when you wo rk so hard to lie to your church about the real you? You choose every day to be fake to them because you're afraid of what will happen if they find out how pathetic the real marky is....so dont even THINK about telling someone else about trusting God...

4--you couldnt steamroll a wet paper bag in the gutter, especially since God intended for your life to be the steamroller, not just your words. This is why you utterly fail. So, stop living in fairy tale land and either step up, be a man and actually live as you claim to, or give up the claim. Its that simple.

Mark, he referenced scientific fact. YOU on the other hand referenced a song in the bible. Yeah, total smokage.

And thusly we have brought up the Ark fable again.

I asked you before, how many years did it take Noah to build this massive ship? He had the surrounding communities' approval?

HOW did they survive after the flood? You said once that "crops are easily planted."

Apparently you did not study any form of agriculture during your super happy fun degree time.

Crops take time to grow. How long does it take to grow, say, barley?

Potato? Corn?

What crops did these animals eat?

What did the carnivorous felines eat?
What did the family Ursa eat?

Answer those couple of questions for me, oh great prophet.

95superhack claims to believe in Christ, he even claims to believe some parts of the Bible that don't disagree with wikipedia or his other trusted sources of information, but he doesn't really trust God, and seeks to strip God of supernatural power, that much is painfully (and nauseatingly) obvious...he is full of pride, and full of error

Not true YZFife....quit bearing false witness, or have your forgotten the 9th.


in short, he's a fraud and an idolater


Again an unsupported false witness, you don't even know me, yet I think what I have said around hear tries to bear fruit while your is of a poison.

And again, quit stealing your employers bandwidth and time....remember that is the 8th.

Such a hypocrite you are, and not the type if Christian any would would want to aspire to be. If you even think that what you do hear bears any fruit or is of any witness to Christ you are mistaken. You are not in anyway a 'fisher of men'....buck up and be a lighthouse YZFife.

not true....there were both mountains and oceans...but Psalm 104 indicates the mountains were raised up (significantly), and the ocean valleys sank down, in purely a supernatural act of God

the bible seems to swap gods viewpoint between timeless omniscience and being immersed in time so things suprise him.

timeless god knows he will flood the earth and so created it to explode with water at the right moment.
so the flood would be a purely natural event, acting according to its nature as planned and crafted by god.

then there is the timely god who is unpleasently suprised at the results of allowing angels to rape women and suddenly decides to murder everyone on the planet.
requiring him to use his supernatural powers to force the planet to act contrary to the nature he created.

the flood waters were on the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:24)....plenty of time to bury lots of dead stuff in sediment

you can get lots of sloshing in a planet sized bathtub, changing hills and lakes into mountains and oceans.

you are talking about 1 planetload of life being buried in a flash, one generation, the planet is covered with thousands of feet of dead lifeforms, the bible doesn't mention having to wade through yard thick seething mats of those little critters that make limestone.

there are TOO MANY fossils to have been the ecosystem on the day god killed it.

all the species currently alive PLUS every extinct fossil species.



the Flood explains EVERYTHING....the layers, vast canyons, oil deposts, massive fossil graveyards in numerous areas of the world (with thousands of fossilized creatures all churned together)...and yes, the ensuing ice age, which lasted for thousands of years (not millions)

the Bible gives the RIGHT glasses to view the data..."millions of years" is bogus science

perhaps the earth was much bigger around when it was all inflated with water and it crumpled up as it deflated, smooshing the land together and concentrating the blanket of {former} life into the thick deposits we find.

yeah, the earth used to be the size of the sun, until the glory filled needle of gods rightious indignation popped it.

Mark, answer the god damned crop questions. Why did you so purposely avoid those?

Why don't you answer the question? Is it that easy to find a question that your holy books can't answer? Wow, maybe I should try harder and see what else I can dig up?

Maybe when I log back on tonight there will be an answer. I doubt it, though, because there isn't one.

Yep. That was the theory I formed. I've asked many a preacher and zealot this question and have yet to get a straight answer.

Yep. That was the theory I formed. I've asked many a preacher and zealot this question and have yet to get a straight answer.

magic.

but you don't accept that, which leaves them nothing else.

Yep. That was the theory I formed. I've asked many a preacher and zealot this question and have yet to get a straight answer.

Dude, stop patting yourself on the back. He hasn't answered your questions, so what? Perhaps he doesn't know the answer, big deal. I bet he doesn't know what colour Noah's beard was either, or what materials they used to make their sandals. What does this prove?

Don't get me wrong here, I have some serious doubts about the ark and the flood myself but the way you gleefully gush everytime you think you've trumped yzf is just sad.

Dude, stop patting yourself on the back. He hasn't answered your questions, so what? Perhaps he doesn't know the answer, big deal. I bet he doesn't know what colour Noah's beard was either, or what materials they used to make their sandals. What does this prove?

Don't get me wrong here, I have some serious doubts about the ark and the flood myself but the way you gleefully gush everytime you think you've trumped yzf is just sad.

well, considering the fact that marky runs around shouting from every hilltop how he "only speaks truth", "knows the truth", etc etc etc, it does say something when he doesnt have answers about that "truth" that he claims to have the monopoly on in this place.

if his motives were geniune, and he didnt know the answer, he would simply have said, "I dont know, but I will check it out..." or something. Instead, he mocks whoever asks the question, then acts like he is too good to provide an answer in the first place. Correct me if I am wrong, but the life marky claims to lead is supposed to be one of service--he would be doing God a favor by being honest, yet chooses not to be for the sake of his own self-inflated ego. A false prophet is not usually this obvious until after you delve into the Word to compare their words to it.....

The color of a beard and the survival of 6000 + specie are on two totally different levels.

Not really. If you believe in an omnipotent god who is capable of making it rain for 40 days and 40 nights then making some crops grow shouldn’t be a big deal.

And THERE's the 'magic' answer.

keep in mind that the gomers that invented the story had no notion of an ecoSYSTEM, to them god had just created a hundred or so animals, fish, birds, bugs and plants living on a sterile earth.

adam naming every living thing was casually done in an afternoon.

{yzf, kinds - speciation, whatever}

so the need for microorganisims in the soil to get plants to grow {Heinlein, Farmer in the Sky} had no place in the story.

ALL the topsoil would have ended up at the bottom of the oceans.

noah would have stepped out onto bare rock covered with a couple hundred feet of rotting / rapidly fossilising / turning into oil, corpses.

Mark's a fucking scumbag.

he is the product of his religion.

he worships a god of hate and death.

his god HATES all of us, so what do you expect a Chosen Saved One to do while he is stuck in the slime {the rest of us} that his god is subjecting him to as a learning experience ?

people who are polite to us cursed from birth types are clearly ignorant of the nature of the god who drowned humanity. making them cursed too.

narrow is the gate, of the god of death and hate.

{that flows pretty good, huh ? }

keep in mind that the gomers that invented the story had no notion of an ecoSYSTEM, to them god had just created a hundred or so animals, fish, birds, bugs and plants living on a sterile earth.

Gomers?

Gomer is the whore wife of the prophet Hosea. If you guys were reading a 1 year bible like me, you would have read that this week.

Do you folks who slander God have a hope of ever understanding him? You probably don't think so, but here's to believing in a soveriegn God who is disrespectful of the hearts of men like you and still through his predestined plan has the ability to pull you out of the darkness. Why should it puzzle you that God is capable of creating the universe in a moment? It seems to me that His son walked around on this planet only 2000 years ago. And while here: he walked on water, fed thousands of people with a piece of bread and a few fish, healed folks with all sorts of infirmities and was resurrected. He seemed to demonstrate his power over the physical world pretty clearly.

I'm available anytime for a SERIOUS conversation. But there's never any to be had regarding this subject on a forum that includes Mark. And I'm sorry to say, but as soon as you speak of God as definitively real, you negate yourself from any objective injection as much as I do when I call you an idiot, but not when I say he doesn't exist, and that's because YOU ENJOY THE SAME LIFE THAT SCIENCE HAS MADE POSSIBLE AS ALL OF US HELL-BOUND NON-BELIEVERS.
So the way I see it, the onus of proof is on YOU.

I'd like to respond to the rest of your post but I don't have the time. Not that you didn't raise legitimate questions, you did. Maybe we'll have time later. Let's have a serious conversation, but let's keep it simple, to a single point. I'll start with this one from you:

"as soon as you speak of God as definitively real, you negate yourself from any objective injection"

Would you concede that there is a possibility that a supreme being exists?

(I will concede that there is a possibility that it doesn't exist.)

Gomers?

Gomer is the whore wife of the prophet Hosea. If you guys were reading a 1 year bible like me, you would have read that this week.

Do you folks who slander God have a hope of ever understanding him? You probably don't think so, but here's to believing in a soveriegn God who is disrespectful of the hearts of men like you and still through his predestined plan has the ability to pull you out of the darkness. Why should it puzzle you that God is capable of creating the universe in a moment? It seems to me that His son walked around on this planet only 2000 years ago. And while here: he walked on water, fed thousands of people with a piece of bread and a few fish, healed folks with all sorts of infirmities and was resurrected. He seemed to demonstrate his power over the physical world pretty clearly.

here is a very serious and sincere question for you...

WHICH IS WORSE....

1--the one that slanders God out of ignorance, because they never knew Him....OR

2--the one who preaches God, only to be a liar, hypocrite, false prophet, lead a double life, practice complete and total dishonesty daily, etc etc etc?

God gives believers help in the form of each other....what does it say about a so-called believer when he works this hard to hide his entire sinful life from the church and the fellow believers that God has put into his life? You would think that someone who was SERIOUS about getting closer to God would realize that bearing your sin to those who are put here to help you would be a GOOD THING....dontcha think?

here is a very serious and sincere question for you...

WHICH IS WORSE....

1--the one that slanders God out of ignorance, because they never knew Him....OR

2--the one who preaches God, only to be a liar, hypocrite, false prophet, lead a double life, practice complete and total dishonesty daily, etc etc etc?

God gives believers help in the form of each other....what does it say about a so-called believer when he works this hard to hide his entire sinful life from the church and the fellow believers that God has put into his life? You would think that someone who was SERIOUS about getting closer to God would realize that bearing your sin to those who are put here to help you would be a GOOD THING....dontcha think?

This is a toughy. I not sure what brought this up. Are you describing me or YZF?

I need more information about the people. If they're both unsaved, I believe punishment is worse for number 2. If they're both saved, then definitely number 2 will be judged harder.

If number 1 is not saved but number 2 is saved, then it would still be better to be number 2 despite the fact that they will be judged harder. It's still better than ending up in Hell.

Every believer is a hypocrite on some level. Even Paul said I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I should do.

You make good points in your last paragraph. Is this about YZF? If so, then I turn it back to you. Even if YZF cursed you, do you think that you're current attitude towards him, reflects the love of Christ in your rebuke of him? What I'm getting at is this, are you trying to help him or are you so pissed off that you can't see straight.

Every believer is a hypocrite on some level. Even Paul said I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I should do.


I'm just posting to back up that fact.

I'll admit it, I'm a hypocrite.

yet, what does that entail? As Christians, Should we not always treat others as above ourselves anyway?

This is a toughy. I not sure what brought this up. Are you describing me or YZF?

I need more information about the people. If they're both unsaved, I believe punishment is worse for number 2. If they're both saved, then definitely number 2 will be judged harder.

If number 1 is not saved but number 2 is saved, then it would still be better to be number 2 despite the fact that they will be judged harder. It's still better than ending up in Hell.

Every believer is a hypocrite on some level. Even Paul said I do the things I don't want to do and I don't do the things I should do.

You make good points in your last paragraph. Is this about YZF? If so, then I turn it back to you. Even if YZF cursed you, do you think that you're current attitude towards him, reflects the love of Christ in your rebuke of him? What I'm getting at is this, are you trying to help him or are you so pissed off that you can't see straight.

well, here's the deal..

Have you ever noticed how I tend to focus on asking him why he doesnt stop hiding from his church? That is not about being pissed off--it is a serious question. You see, if marky himself cannot bear to follow the bible, then why would anyone here or anywhere else listen to him telling them to do so?

At the same time, if he cared even half as much about the Word of God as he claims to every day, then why would he so deliberately refuse to follow it? Someone recently claimed that he plants seeds all over the forum....well, you cannot plant a seed in this manner. You cannot REALLY plant a seed anywhere when your own willful disobedience is this blatant and common.

As for my rebuke, you should do a little digging before making such a comment. There have been plenty of times where posts have been made to him by several people, myself included, that bear a lot of patience and concern....it does not matter. The reply is the same each time--he is apparently just that angry for real or something. It has already been proven time and again that one does not need to insult mark for him to fly off the handle.

As for my spiritual condition, mark seems to think he is judge and jury of all anyways, so go ask him. After all, he to this day stil thinks that someone else is "90% at fault" for his own actions, and to this day he thinks he is qualified to tell us that there are only three on this forum that are saved....

It would only stand to simple reason that if someone really were so much into the Word as he claims, then they would not be so fake, so willing to throw that Word aside, as he is. Like I said, you cannot claim to be with God only when it suits you. Either you are, or you are not, and where I come from(as well as what the Bible itself says), the faithful are instructed to bring their sin to other believers, not to hide it on the internet so he can put on a good show every sunday morning for the unsuspecting "friends"

Gomers?

Gomer is the whore wife of the prophet Hosea. If you guys were reading a 1 year bible like me, you would have read that this week.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-gom1.htm


GOMER
An undesirable hospital patient.
There is dispute both about the origin and the meaning of this odd term. Some dictionaries say it refers especially to a patient of any age who is dirty or undesirable, or somebody elderly who is suffering from dementia or confusion. However, some doctors would specifically limit it to a poor or old person with some chronic condition whose need isn’t urgent but who is keeping somebody with a more serious problem from getting treatment. The term often appears in glossaries of the sort of medical jargon that never appears, or should never appear, in patients’ notes. Much of this is created by hard-pressed medical types who use gallows humour to distance themselves enough from human suffering to remain sane. It is often said to be an acronym of “Get Out of My Emergency Room!”.

It’s more likely that it actually comes from a character played by Jim Nabor in the Andy Griffith Show on CBS television in the US in 1963-64. The name of his character was Gomer Pyle, a mechanic with a pleasant character but dim-witted, as thick as two planks, a real local yokel. From 1964 to 1970 Jim Nabors had his own spin-off show Gomer Pyle USMC, in which Gomer joined the Marine Corps. Gomer, of course, is itself an inoffensive first name of Biblical ancestry (the original was one of the sons of Japheth in Genesis).

Quite how the name shifted from the world of motor repairs and military life to medical matters is far from clear, and it’s this gap in understanding that stops more careful dictionaries from citing these TV shows as the source. However, a key influence is a book on medical life called House of God written pseudonymously under the name Samuel Shem and published in 1978. This popularised the medical sense as an acronym for “Get Out of My Emergency Room” and may indeed have invented it, perhaps on the basis of the slightly older sense of the word.

bx7 and tofuball, you two are 1000 times the Christian than Mark could ever be.

That, my friend, is a judgment call, and you are making it based on inferior human information (and perhaps, logic).

I've got my own issues, being only human. They just aren't as noticeable on an online forum.

Does that make me better then him, or worse?

Being only human, I am not capable of discerning that matter. I simply don't have the capacity or the information; I am not God.


I have been angery with both of you in the past for not aknowledging that Mark is a poor representation of your faith.

We are ALL poor representations of our faith! Yet, we followers of Yeshua pray that HE may show through us! We must become less, so that he might become more! Is His great power not manifest in weakness?

Besides, how do you know what we discuss in PM?

Yet, I will correct\argue doctrinal errors in public.

Yes you should. So how do you treat a 'renegade' Christian brother who doesn't behave correctly?
Do you make him (Mark) aware of his indiscretions in an effort to help him onto the path of salvation?
-Shouldn't you?

Last chapter of the letter "James," IIRC. (Don't really have time to check right now)

cracks me up how dennis and jonnie claim to know all about me and my life, when they don't have the slightest clue, it's positively insane....on and on and on they whine and carry on about the past like 2 year olds, and all the time overlooking their own stench

get over it you crybabies...geez....someone needs to slap both of you around

anyway, this is a FANTASTIC CD from Ken Ham, to the true Christians here, pick up a few copies and share with your friends (unfortunately the entire video is no longer posted on AIG, or I can't find it)...also check out the audio preview

http://shop5.gospelcom.net/epages/AIGUS.storefront/en/product/20-5-028

news flash, champ--this aint the past anyone's talking about. Not exclusively, anyways. you're as big a fraud right now as you have ever been....that sounds like the PRESENT to me....but good luck with that flawed thinking...:bigthumb:


both of them have PM'd me, why don't you butt out...I certainly don't need YOUR help

Well, you obviously need SOMEONE'S help, because your game plan aint working....

EDIT--and if others have PM'ed you, why does your behavior stay the same?

We are ALL poor representations of our faith! Yet, we followers of Yeshua pray that HE may show through us! We must become less, so that he might become more! Is His great power not manifest in weakness?

that may be so, tofu, but it is no excuse for someone that doesnt even bother trying to follow the Word....that is not a defense by any means.

Besides, how do you know what we discuss in PM?

Yet, I will correct\argue doctrinal errors in public.

so....as long as someone CLAIMS to follow the proper doctrine, you dont correct their obviously improper doctrine publicly. Doctrinal errors are more than just when someone tells you they follow something else--the Bible says to let your LIFE be your doctrine. Saying one thing and doing another may not seem like it, but on the scale that marky does it, it is a doctrinal error all day. Even little things, like how he cannot wait to log on here to insult someone, so he does it on company time on company access....that is not proper. But the big things stand out more--he has alreqady explaned in detail how he thinks the BIBLE allows him to wish for and pray for death to come to others....is that the compassion that you REALLY think Jesus taught in the proper doctrine? That is not just someone straying from what they know tp be right--he insists that he is FOLLOWING THE DOCTRINE when he does it. That is just one example, there are certainly others.

You know why some people drive this point to you? Because the more that anyone bolsters mark when he acts like this, the more he acts like this. he thinks it is ok because those who SHOULD be following God's word and trying to help him dont. And let's face it, while we all need help, wishing for someone to die and praying to make it happen is a low point that should not be ignored.

news flash, "champ":

you're a perverted, babbling psychopathic divorcee loser with cancer, just like you were 4 years ago...nothin's changed

do you even know what honesty is? By any chance?

didnt think so

do you?

filthy liar and accuser...may you be judged

so, you think it is acceptable to lie intentionally because you think someone else is being dishonest....where in the Bible does God command that?

You are a sad joke

Not to mention, I havent even been dishonest here. Everything I have said you have done was truth. Not one thing about this was made up. Your actions are laid out in the pages of the forums, so again, who do you think youre actually fooling here? When I said you threatened people, YOU DID. When I told you that your family initiated contact with me, THEY DID. When I said that you hide your "real" self from those in your daily life, YOU DO. Your mens study group was totally shocked at the behavior you display in here, because they even told me that THIS IS NOTHING LIKE THE WAY HE IS IN PERSON. This is proof that you lie to them about who you really are.

You are not fooling anyone. God knows. He is not fooled when you try to lie your way out of your behavior. Chew on that.

Tofuball, I am disappointed.

Insert huge chunk of text here

As well, know you both; I do not fear men. I am not wavered by your disappointment in me, no, I am in fact encouraged. No man that does right is without enemies. The Spirit does not seek to please the flesh, but the will of God.

Why should _I_ publicly denounce his actions?


Is it not blatantly obvious to you that what he does is in hatred, and not in the spirit? Do you need me to tell you again what you all have obviously already read?


No, you are both smarter then that! Therefore, stop trying to get me (a hypocritical, flawed human) to publicly humiliate Mark. What good would that do, anyway? If he is as closed-minded as you all claim he is, what would my word do to change that?

No, I do not stand by some of his actions; the outbursts of wrath, the threats, enmities, constant quarreling, and name calling. These are not the acts of the spirit, and YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS. But I shall stand by my brother.

But shall _you_ demand that I PUBLICLY rebuke him on this? Take the plank out of your own eye before you address the speck in your brother's eye!

I have a very real warning for you all, the ax is laid at the foot of the tree, and any tree that does not produce good fruit will meet its end. I earnestly urge you to produce good fruit in keeping with repentance. Open your minds and ask the Spirit of the Lord to lead you to the truth.

Lets take Andromeda, which is 2.5 million light-years away...if the earth is only 6000 years old, then how come we can see this galaxy?

yeah this response is late, but i just saw this thread.

that's a common argument and easy to counteargue.

since god created everything, he created the andromeda galaxy as far away as it is in addition to the light emanating from it, already in motion and already able to be detected on earth at the moment of creation.

in other words, god created an 'old' universe at the moment of creation.

As well, know you both; I do not fear men. I am not wavered by your disappointment in me, no, I am in fact encouraged. No man that does right is without enemies. The Spirit does not seek to please the flesh, but the will of God.

Why should _I_ publicly denounce his actions?


Is it not blatantly obvious to you that what he does is in hatred, and not in the spirit? Do you need me to tell you again what you all have obviously already read?


No, you are both smarter then that! Therefore, stop trying to get me (a hypocritical, flawed human) to publicly humiliate Mark. What good would that do, anyway? If he is as closed-minded as you all claim he is, what would my word do to change that?

No, I do not stand by some of his actions; the outbursts of wrath, the threats, enmities, constant quarreling, and name calling. These are not the acts of the spirit, and YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS. But I shall stand by my brother.

But shall _you_ demand that I PUBLICLY rebuke him on this? Take the plank out of your own eye before you address the speck in your brother's eye!

I have a very real warning for you all, the ax is laid at the foot of the tree, and any tree that does not produce good fruit will meet its end. I earnestly urge you to produce good fruit in keeping with repentance. Open your minds and ask the Spirit of the Lord to lead you to the truth.

I dont suppose you even once considered that it is your duty according to God to address such actions? After all, the Bible specifically tells how to deal with a brother that refuses to admit his sin and do something about it....rather than sit there and pretend that you can look the other way simply because you think this is about this forum....when you and I both know what is said about how to handle a brother that refuses to get out of that sin.

I dont suppose you even once considered that it is your duty according to God to address such actions? After all, the Bible specifically tells how to deal with a brother that refuses to admit his sin and do something about it....rather than sit there and pretend that you can look the other way simply because you think this is about this forum....when you and I both know what is said about how to handle a brother that refuses to get out of that sin.

Again, you have no idea what we have IMed him.

I like Mark. And you guys too. if there was a God, he would have seen the fights and made things better. I wouldn't stand for it if I was god. I would have grabbed each of you by the ear and put you all in a room to duke it out. Never good to make too many enemies.

but sometimes I wonder if Elisha would just call down some bears to maul dennis and jon on the spot :)

it wouldnt work. These guys in here are too old. you have to be like 12ish. MAHAHAHAHAHA

I say justice delayed is justice denied. And no good ever comes from brooding over an impending but inevitable punishment.

good stuff bro. see you tomorrow

Again, you have no idea what we have IMed him.

you completely missed the point if you think that the private way is the only way to go.....that is why I asked if you even know what the Bible says about how to handle such a matter.

If a brother sins, you should speak to him about it. If he agrees with you, you have won him over. If he does not, you should speak to him again, but this time you should bring along a couple of others so that the testimony can be established by a few witnesses. If he still fails to see his ways, you should bring it in front of the church. And if he still does not change, you should treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Kindly point out the point where a PM is the only method you should use. If you are a true believer, you should have a genuine concern for the fact that someone handles themself in this manner. Sending a PM here and there and watching the same behavior continue is not a part of the instruction that God provided.

EDIT--I am not even saying that this behavior needs to be so publicly addressed HERE, but let's face it--what you are doing is obviously not working very well. as we speak, marky is even up to his old tricks again about threatening to kcik everyone's ass and asking for their addresses again. NOTHING CHANGES. And before anyone, like you mark, tries to whine about me, I was not even involved in that thread when you pulled that crap.....simply put, that means YOU are responsible for your actions, so grow up and stop trying to pin them on others

* Sigh *

My heart mourns for you. Open your heart and mind to the Spirit of God.
It's a decent argument, with no foundation.
Without faith, what can you do to please God?
Without love, how can anything you do gain you anything?

I do as the spirit leads me in this matter. In fact, it's the only reason I'm here at TFL (if you recall).

But I do not bring him to "the church," in your sight, for TFL is not "the church."

At TFL, perhaps me and BX constitute the rest of "the church"


If you're expecting a public heated exchange between me and Mark on the matter, you dont understand at all.

Now, I draw your attention to how I treat pagans and tax collectors. How does it differ in the light of an online forum? I tell you, stop listening to the whims of your flesh, for you WILL reap what you sow.

When have I "pinned" the blame on others?

Who can hope to grab something out of God's own hand?

No, not even Satan.

* Sigh *

My heart mourns for you. Open your heart and mind to the Spirit of God.
It's a decent argument, with no foundation.
Without faith, what can you do to please God?
Without love, how can anything you do gain you anything?

I do as the spirit leads me in this matter. In fact, it's the only reason I'm here at TFL (if you recall).

But I do not bring him to "the church," in your sight, for TFL is not "the church."

At TFL, perhaps me and BX constitute the rest of "the church"


If you're expecting a public heated exchange between me and Mark on the matter, you dont understand at all.

Now, I draw your attention to how I treat pagans and tax collectors. How does it differ in the light of an online forum? I tell you, stop listening to the whims of your flesh, for you WILL reap what you sow.

When have I "pinned" the blame on others?

1--you didnt even bother to read what I wrote, obviously...if you had, you would not have asked the questions or made the assumptions you did. Shall I clarify??

YOU--

But I do not bring him to "the church," in your sight, for TFL is not "the church."

MY ORIGINAL POST--

I am not even saying that this behavior needs to be so publicly addressed HERE...

If you paid attention, you would have seen that before you assumed wrongly.

YOU--

When have I "pinned" the blame on others?

MY ORIGINAL POST--

And before anyone, like you mark, tries to whine about me, I was not even involved in that thread when you pulled that crap.....simply put, that means YOU are responsible for your actions, so grow up and stop trying to pin them on others

Again, a little attention would save you from such a misunderstanding. Are you suddenly Mark now? I specifically mentioned his name--how much clearer should I have to be?

In any event, "the church" has no relation to TFL. "the church" is the body of believers. The purpose of the practice I mentioned was to take those who falsely proclaimed themselves to be followers of God and PUT THEM OUT so that their decision to sin would not infect THE CHURCH. The mens group that mark used to attend understood this--and the concept according to the Bible is to distance yourself from someone who is so obviously this fake.

Lest you forget, 2 Corinthians 6:14

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

While we all sin, it is a proven fact that Mark repeatedly states his doctrine, and the specifics of that doctrine are at odds with the Bible itself. tofu--you even disagreed with him in the last day or so on a thread here about one of his such statements.....and a sin is one thing, but such die-hard proclamation of false doctrine is another thing entirely. If you yourself were to follow the Word as it was written, you would not have anything to do with this guy....that's a simple fact, taken word for word from God's Word itself. Clinging to that false doctrine, even after the Word is reviewed and shown to counter such doctrine, is inexcuseable.

Who can hope to grab something out of God's own hand?

No, not even Satan.

is that really the case??

Then why would the great commission even exist? Why would there be a "war for souls" if no one could take those souls from God? If this were true, then God would need only sit back and wait for all the souls to fall in his lap....instead, there is a very real aspect here that you just ignored with that statement. Why would the mission of the faithful be to seek and save those who are lost, if nothing could be taken from God??

THINK ABOUT IT--God created the soul of every person who ever lived or ever will, am I right? IF THEY ARE ALL HIS FROM THEIR INCEPTION, then how, using your statement, would anyone have ever fallen away from God?

At the same time, why would there be any references to what Satan does in the Bible? If Satan could not take from God even one soul, then why does the Bible show him working at just that?? Why does the Bible show him trying to grab the soul of Job away from God, for example? Are you telling me that the whole concept of Satan is nothing more than an excuse?

dp

it's pretty simple:

Dennis intensely hates all Christians, especially those who are confrontational

Jon claims to be a "Christian", when it suits him (although he has no problem making perverted statements about Christ, interesting how that works)

but the real reason Jon is here is to attack me...period...and attempt to set himself up as some type of spiritual guru, because Jon really thinks he knows everything about everything...he''s full of pride and intensely insecure

neither of them has any interest whatsoever in spiritual topics, and neither contributes anything of value to these threads...they are simply here to express vitriol at me and/or the God I serve

Jon even delights in getting me to sin, and gleefully ignores the warning of Matthew 18

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

here we go again...

NO ONE CAUSES YOU TO COMMIT YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

YOU are supposedly an ADULT, and supposed to be RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS ALL BY YOURSELF.

Is this what you will say to God? When He confronts you about your actions, are you going to bow before the Almighty and say "but they made me do it!!"?????

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO COMMITS YOUR SIN. END OF STORY.

STOP TRYING TO BLAME THAT SIN ON SOMEONE ELSE.

I dont "get you to sin". YOU REACT ALL BY YOURSELF TO WHATEVER YOU SEE. And in most cases, such as your recent actions on the other forum that GOT YOU BANNED, you didnt even REACT--you ACTED. You were not a part of that thread! you went LOOKING for it. you went looking to see my posts, and after 29 pages where you were nowhere involved on the topic, you interjected yourself in there--YOU CHOSE TO SIN ALL BY YOURSELF AND WITHOUT PROVOCATION. Man, the entire beginning of this whole mess with you years ago was because you took it upon yourself to enter a thread without one single personal provocation towards you and proclaim that others were to burn in hell! YOU DID NOT REACT--you ACTED.

Grow the hell up and be a man for cryin out loud...and take some friggin responsibility for yourself.

Like I said before, Marky, if you cannot resist the temptation, then it is your duty as a "follower" to avoid the temptation altogether. that is YOUR responsibility, so how about taking some instead of always trying to pawn off YOUR responsibility onto others?

again, for the hard of hearing:



so it is possible for YOU....yes, YOU...to cause someone to sin...to antagonize them and instigate sin

THOSE LITTLE ONES...he was talking about an ACTUAL CHILD. Maybe if you didnt take everything out of context, you would actually learn something.

Are you a little child now? you sure do act lke it.

The point of that verse was that leading a little child astray will meet harsh reaction, since CHILDREN ARENT SUPPOSED TO KNOW BETTER. But YOU ARE.....you ARE supposed to know better.....

Let's examine a portion of your earlier quote:

Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

If YOUR foot or YOUR eye....notice how this doesnt talk about SOMEONE ELSE getting YOU to sin? It talks about YOU SINNING. And it talks about YOU CAUSING YOURSELF TO SIN. Ultimately, NO MATTER WHAT is around you, if you give into temptation from a damn internet forum to sin the way you have, then you have one seriously weak heart....and that is YOUR deficiency, not everyone else's fault.

Does that mean that you need to gouge your eyes out now?? After all, you see sin in here and explode with sin in return?? Is that your argument? Then better gouge them puppies out fast, lest you burn in the eternal fire....

Better chop off those fingers too--after all, they type the words of hate out daily....

Oh, and then there are the examples that are proven, such as that recent thread on 7 club....apparently you can be "provoked" or "instigated" without even being involved in any way now???

Stop lying already--youre supposed to be a grown man. And therefore, responsible for what you CHOOSE to do. Act like it.

Jon, you really need to spend a lot more time in prayer, and keep your heart and mind open to God.

So Mark's soul is safe no matter what kind of an asshole he behaves like?
C'mon, Tofu. You know better.

That is a very catholic view of God you've got there.

nope...wrong again, and I knew you would come back with that

"little children" or "little ones" is a phrase used to refer to those immature, young, or weak in the faith, it has no direct connection with physical age...the apostle John uses the very same terminology in his epistles, and so does Paul

really???

So, if I post the actual scripture in its original context, it wont prove that he was actually referring to a child?? Let's see here....

And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

He clearly is talking about a little child, in fact, if I recall right, at that time he actually POINTED TO AN ACTUAL CHILD THAT WAS NEARBY. Sure, he says that people must be like children--that is, reborn into Christ.....but in this specific case, he actually says WHOEVER WELCOMES A LITTLE CHILD....He did NOT say "whoever welcomes those who are LIKE children..."

Also, weak in the faith, huh?? Are you saying that you are weak in the faith?? Thats funny--you run around here talking about how you are ALWAYS RIGHT...how you are the MACK TRUCK, the STEAM ROLLER....but now, you think you can claim that you are "weak in faith" just so you can claim that I make you sin?? Could you be any more full of it? Any other time, you are 150% full of yourself and high on how strong you think you are in all ways....but suddenly, you try to play this card? You cannot have it both ways, sport.

Let's also take a look at something you just said in this thread, in response ot something else:

humans choose sin

THATS RIGHT....HUMANS CHOOSE SIN....except for you, apparently, because in your case, you now cry like some victim...."psycho jonnie MADE YOU SIN..."

You cant even get your own story straight....and again, you cannot have it both ways. You spend most of your time bragging about how you are the eagle surrounded by fools and turkeys....but now, when it suits your otherwise-disproven argument, you suddenly wanna be "weak in the faith" just so you can say "he made me do it"....

GROW UP. BE A MAN. ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR OWN ACTIONS. End of story.

Christ's instruction to His followers here is to deal drastically with sin

WE all see how you deal with sin....when it comes to the sins of others, you ram it down their throats about how they arent worthy to live, you want them to die, they are the roadkill, you are the mack truck, they will burn in the fire, blah blah blah....BUT....when YOUR sin comes into discussion, all of a sudden, "that psycho jonnie MADE ME SIN....he INSTIGATED IT....he CAUSED ME TO SIN....he is 90% AT FAULT for it...."

And those, marky, are YOUR OWN WORDS there. Thanks for the "drastic" handling of sin, you hypocrite.

EDIT--one more thing....

that is hyperbole

That's bullshit. You interpret the words as you see fit to suit whatever argument you come across. Cutting off fingers is certainly less brutal than wishing someone dead, wouldnt you think?? Yet, the lesser one is "only hyperbole", but the worse one is, according to you, to be taken literally and practiced....that's a good one.

Jon, you really need to spend a lot more time in prayer, and keep your heart and mind open to God.



That is a very catholic view of God you've got there.

1--and you need to spend a lot more time actually following the doctrine--the complete doctrine--that you claim is yours.

2--Dennis's comment was called sarcasm....he was calling you on your reaction. he was obviously not stating how he feels. he was explaining how he sees your reaction to be. And he was correct in it.

I'll pray for you.

I'll pray for you.

I sincerely appreciate that....


er, um...wait a minute....are you going to pray for me? Or pray for me....to die....?? After the butchering of the Word that your buddy has done, I feel I need to ask.....please dont take offense to this as it is sincere

No, quite the opposite, for life :)

"little children" or "little ones" is a phrase used to refer to those immature, young, or weak in the faith, it has no direct connection with physical age

that is hyperbole

so in addition to parable the bible uses hyperbole INSTEAD OF LITERAL TRUTH.

and of course it is obvious when "little children" REALLY means "fully grown doofuses" and "he did as he had vowed" really means "he did NOT do as he had vowed" and "six days" really means "six billion years" ?

Galatians 4

My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

Ephesians 5

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

2 Peter 1

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

I John 2

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I write to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
I write to you, dear children,
because you have known the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

clearly these are the stages of spiritual maturity:

"children", "young men", and "fathers"...and any scholar/Bible teacher worth his salt agrees

but you can't argue with a drunk (who will never admit he's wrong)

oh, so I am a drunk now??

what is your source of information for all these pathetic slanderous comments? You have not gotten one thing right about me!!

FIRST, I supposedly never could hold a job....

THEN, I was supposedly divorced...

And NOW, I am a drunk??

And you dont even know my name!?! You really need to lay off the crack. I suppose that you're just gonna claim that I drove you to this sin?? Bearing false witness is a SIN, Marky, and nothing you say can even honestly hint that I "instigated" it or that I compelled you to once again jump squarely off the deep end. You post such bullshit ONLY because your goal is to discredit and insult me, NOT because of anything I said to you. Hell, I dont even make anything up about you--everything I ever posted about you came from either you yourself, or from someone that personally knows you.

I dont drink, retard--one every once in a while is as "drunk" as it gets.

Now, on to your pathetic attempt to lie about the Bible yet again....

From you earlier:

Matthew 18 (again)

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become LIKE little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

1--just as I told you, he called over an actual, living breathing little child that was nearby. NOT a "hyperbole", but an real, living, breathing child.

2--Then he says, "unless you become LIKE this child", which I already addressed as having to be reborn into Christ.

3--and here's the part youre trying to skip over....he THEN says "And whoever welcomes a little child like this...."

CLEARLY, He referred to the little child he had called over--the REAL one, the ACTUAL CHILD, not the "hyperbole", or the imaginary one used as a reference to spiritual growth". Jesus was referring to anyone who welcomed A REAL CHILD in His name. Your attempt to make this a hyperbole just died on the table. The words "like this" are the key--because "like this" clearly refers to the one example of a child He had available at that moment--the one he called over. The REAL one. Not the hyperbole. Thanks for playing.

not true at all....I sincerely wish there could be peace, that we could all agree, and be of one mind

but I recognize that can never happen, and that God has ordained conflict in this world

then why do you go so far out of your own way to make trouble? When there is none, you start some. And when there is some, you are guaranteed to start even more! But you suddenly wish there was peace?? Do you wish this before or after you are done demanding addresses so you can kick someone else's ass this week??

Look--even when I came here, I was nothing but polite to you. Do you deny this? If peace is really what you wanted, you most definitely have had plenty of chances....why dont you ever take any of them?

Have you ever noticed how I tend to focus on asking him why he doesnt stop hiding from his church? That is not about being pissed off--it is a serious question. You see, if marky himself cannot bear to follow the bible, then why would anyone here or anywhere else listen to him telling them to do so?

I didn't notice. Is there anyone here who attends church and doesn't hide some sin? I for one, have a habit or two, or three, or four that I will do my darnest to hide from my church. I have hope in Christ that He will be able to get me through them. I don't really care to research the point but I'd be willing to bet a nickel that you yourself have used a word or idea here that you might not express to your pastor. What I'm getting at is this, who is free from quilt? None of us. Not you, not me, not YZF, not Tofu, not Divine Logic, not anybody.

Someone recently claimed that he plants seeds all over the forum....well, you cannot plant a seed in this manner. You cannot REALLY plant a seed anywhere when your own willful disobedience is this blatant and common.

That someone was me and he most certainly plants seeds everytime he types a verse here. How can I say this you might ask? Simple. God's word is alive and powerful:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And also, it goes out to complete a purpose:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Even if YZF was the AntiChrist himself and he uttered a verse from the Bible, it would be for God's purpose and anyone who comes close enough to hear has had a seed thrown at them.

As for my rebuke, you should do a little digging before making such a comment. There have been plenty of times where posts have been made to him by several people, myself included, that bear a lot of patience and concern....it does not matter. The reply is the same each time--he is apparently just that angry for real or something. It has already been proven time and again that one does not need to insult mark for him to fly off the handle.

If you are a Christian, I don't know because I've asked you several times if you've been born again and I haven't received an answer, here's what you should do if you think YZF has a sin problem:

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

But do not hate him:

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

It would only stand to simple reason that if someone really were so much into the Word as he claims, then they would not be so fake, so willing to throw that Word aside, as he is. Like I said, you cannot claim to be with God only when it suits you. Either you are, or you are not, and where I come from(as well as what the Bible itself says), the faithful are instructed to bring their sin to other believers, not to hide it on the internet so he can put on a good show every sunday morning for the unsuspecting "friends"

What in the wide world of sports is this? I'm a believer, feel free to let me know every sin you've commited since the beginning of this month. You are pressing a form of legalism.

news flash, "champ":

you're a perverted, babbling psychopathic divorcee loser with cancer, just like you were 4 years ago...nothin's changed

WRONG! Come on YZF, is this necessary? You know better. This is a person who's drowning and you're in the lifeboat. Stop beating him in the head with your oar and pull him into the boat. Reason with him, plead with him. If he won't get into the boat, ignore his insults, and find someone else.

it's an expression, jon...calm down



right...but He called the child over to make a point: you must have faith like a child to begin the spiritual journey...everyone starts there



it wouldn't be a jonnie post if we didn't get that in at least once!

With the accusations you let fly, no one can tell the difference.

And yes, I am agreeing (for the third time) that Jesus said precisely that. BUT THEN, he specifically pointed to that child and said "Anyone who welcomes a child like this...." AFTER he used hyperbole, he clearly was talking about the child. Why are you still chasing tail over this? Your argument was already agreed upon and this has always been about WHAT HAPPENED NEXT.....anyone home??

I don't

you dont? So, your actions such as that thread I mentioned that got you banned...that was not your doing? you didnt make those posts?? You did NOT go looking for that trouble??

When you learn how to tell the truth, let me know.

when you look back at my time on rx7club, all I did was start a thread on creation/evolution in the lounge (back when the lounge included some thoughtful people older than 16) that went to approximately 50 pages...I posted some things that angered alot of atheists...if you want to call that "starting something", fine, but for the most part, it was pretty civilized

if I recall correctly, your first comment to me was something along the lines of "you can't get laid in a morgue", or some similar high intellectual quip



Wrong again skippy--dennis already detailed the start of this mess several times--you butted in on a thread where he was posting to SOMEONE ELSE. You took it upon yourself to think that you hd the authority right then and there to unleash hell...and you didnt then, just like you dont now. THAT is where your reputation began. The creation/evolution thread came along significantly later.

for a day or two...but the reason you stayed was to look over my shoulder like big brother, as if you had any business doing so...again, your help/guidance was never solicitied or welcomed

thats funny--your account of those first days has changed more times than the direction of the wind. FIRST you claimed that I came here and immediately started in on you. THEN you claimed that I posted nicely three times and then unloaded on you. And NOW, it is this?? Sorry, chap, but I surely didnt see you doing any complaining when my opinion DEFENDED your sorry ass....did I ?? If my opinion was not welcomed, then you would have been adult enough to let me know immediately when it first was posted. But then again, you always were the fairweather type....

Also I happen to recall more than one occasion where you actually asked me specifically to watch you....would you care to have me post those PM's up?? Or will you be man enough to simply tell the truth for once?

some people you can't live at peace with....I tried with you before, and realized it's impossible

you tried?

Lemme guess---just like you tried on the 7 club that time to not insult anyone???? You didnt even make it ONE HOUR, and you were the first one to cross that line!

you havent tried ANYTHING, Mark. Dont you get it?? No matter how many times you may TELL SOMEONE you're gonna try, the minute you applaud cancer and disaster, DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THEY WILL BELIEVE YOU???

Come on--youre supposed to be smarter than that....

This is a person who's drowning and you're in the lifeboat. Stop beating him in the head with your oar and pull him into the boat.

but this world was created specifically to TRAIN yzf to beat swimmers with an oar, that is why god PUT the doomed swimmers in the water, so that yzf could learn to enjoy their cries for help as he pushes them away to their forordained doom.

just like god does with the masses who are not allowed through the narrow gate.

I didn't notice. Is there anyone here who attends church and doesn't hide some sin? I for one, have a habit or two, or three, or four that I will do my darnest to hide from my church. I have hope in Christ that He will be able to get me through them. I don't really care to research the point but I'd be willing to bet a nickel that you yourself have used a word or idea here that you might not express to your pastor. What I'm getting at is this, who is free from quilt? None of us. Not you, not me, not YZF, not Tofu, not Divine Logic, not anybody.

bx7--two things--

1--I do not now, nor have I EVER thought or claimed that I was free from guilt. Dont put words in my mouth or misconstrue what I said.

2--hiding a habit is one thing. Hiding a few habits is one thing. But hiding the person that you are equals fraud. You are talking about you hiding some sins from the church, or asking me if I ever said something that I did not tell a pastor about--this is the way Marky runs his entire life except for the time he is actually around the people in church! THINK ABOUT IT--

brags about everything he has, owns, the salary he makes, the 320 he can bench, etc etc nonstop.

hides his actions at work, when he uses their resources and time to get online and wish that someone would die soon....

EVERY aspect of his life is punctuated by the hate he displays here, and only here, because he feels safe. Here, he can say the things he thinks every day without the people who see it gasping and without it affecting his daily life that he "worked so hard to achieve". The whole outlook he displays about material things is false doctrine. The outlook he displays about how to conduct himself in his employer's building is false doctrine. This is not the same as some guy that struggles with something and hides it--this guy struggles with EVERYTHING, and eventually he will not be able to keep hiding it. What then?? People with this kind of anger problem have historically hurt others....you may not see the difference, but I do, and so do many others. God, as well.

That someone was me and he most certainly plants seeds everytime he types a verse here. How can I say this you might ask? Simple. God's word is alive and powerful:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And also, it goes out to complete a purpose:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Even if YZF was the AntiChrist himself and he uttered a verse from the Bible, it would be for God's purpose and anyone who comes close enough to hear has had a seed thrown at them.

You could not be more wrong there. Any time the Word of God is uttered IN PROPER CONTEXT and FOR THE CORRECT PURPOSE, it honors God. What about all the quacks out there that commit some really fubared things in the name of God? Do you realize how simply someone can take bible verses and twist them out of context for their own purposes? We see it from marky all the time! And since scripture is the final word, what does it say in there??

MATTHEW 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

There is an example of people prophesying in His name...what good came from it?

By the way, if we use your example, then several others sow seeds too, including me. I have posted plenty of scripture. But the Word is clear that merely speaking the words is not what is asked for. But that's ok, because God knows our hearts....

If you are a Christian, I don't know because I've asked you several times if you've been born again and I haven't received an answer, here's what you should do if you think YZF has a sin problem:

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

But do not hate him:

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1--your question has been answered before.

2--there is no hate there. I dont hate this guy. Not by a long stretch. But he DOES hate people in here....so perhaps you are putting this to the wrong person. Do I argue with him? you bet. Am I wrong for many things I say? Yes. But there is a difference between saying things to someone and genuinely hating them in your heart. This should have been said to someone else.....

I hate a lot of things he does. I think it is disgusting that he proclaims himself to be so great and at the same time sinks lower than anyone else here. I think it is a major problem that he claims to serve the God that loves everyone, yet he is filled with so much hate that he actually thinks that praying for people to be killed is a good thing. But lost in all of this crap is the fact that he gets a ton of credit from me....I post a lot of things about that, and they go unnoticed because he is too busy wishing that cancer would claim my life....

What in the wide world of sports is this? I'm a believer, feel free to let me know every sin you've commited since the beginning of this month. You are pressing a form of legalism.

Wrong. I am pressing for someone to work on the fact that he is the biggest hypocrite in the history of man. There is NO WAY that it pleases God that we hide things from our church, but I cannot possibly believe that God would smile down on the fact that this one presses so much more than others about how he is above us, yet he sinks lower than anyone else around.

There are so many things I disagree with---like how he hops from church to church. In the day of Christ, there was only one church in a place. you could not go to Jerusalem or Bethel or Nazareth and go to the Catholic church, or the orthodox church, or the baptist church....there was ONE church. Going to this church, then to that one, then to this other one, then back to the first one, in my opinion is counterproductive. If there is only one Word and one God then only one church is on the money. These churches he goes to are not the same. But anyways, enough of that. Mark has actually argued against confessing to others before. THAT is the point you missed. Nevermind that the bible says to do it in James 5:16, he has flat-out stated before that his sin is only between him and God. This is a direct contradiction to the doctrine he claims to lay his life upon.

lol....wrong, as usual

this was a year or two before that...before DoO (which was created because of me), before you, before Dennis showed up in DoO to "chastise" TWR....I started the original threads in the Lounge...the primary guy I debated back then was Malachi151 (who was actually pretty sharp), I'm sure you have no idea who that was

you're anecdotal to everything, jon...you always were

what are you smoking??

The DoO was NOT created because of you. It used to be the Iraq discussion section, and when the war started winding down the question was asked--shoudl we keep this section?--THAT is where the DoO came from. Dont flatter yourself even for a second, champ--I was there in those days. I know better. And so do you.

Malichi?? I sure do remember malichi. So much for what you are "sure of". Why are you so adamantly stuck on your high horse?? you cannot even tell the truth because of how stuck on yourself you are!!

As for your further claims of how I am always the antagonist, please refer to this thread:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=318671&page=1&pp=15

In this thread, you will find several posts from me. All of which deal with spiritual beliefs, and none of which show the crap you spew forth. AS a side note, you were also a participant in that thread, when your screen name was "audis are slow"....and this thread is just one example of you getting banned for improper conduct. YOU, mark, NOT ME, the supposed antagonizer. My posts and my attitude in that thread speak for themselves, and the fact that you were banned in it speaks for itself as well.

And that is just one thread....would you like to see others??

Here--tell you what. Since you claim that you only became like you are after whatever happened, let's see how you acted back then....

http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?p=501297&postcount=10

3/11/02

typical mindless statement by one of the young punks on this board....granted, the guy who penned the article above about computer games was wound up WAY to tight....but the answer is not to run to the other extreme...ever heard of a BALANCED viewpoint? guess not..."balance", "wisdom", and "maturity" are terms that do not fit within the context of the unreasoning mind of a punk

and just what is your solution to "this life and it's consequences" by the way? I'm all ears...let's hear some of your pearls of wisdom.....ha, what a joke....I can hear it now, more relativistic, ammoral, naturalistic, anti-God, evolutionary, politically correct nonsense....

rebels without a cause....just angry, loudmouth punks with no clue about the big picture....have a nice life....you'll learn the hard way....hopefully soon enough for you to figure it out before you bite the dust....

why do I bother? I just hate error and ignorance, and I hate the fact that the purity of Chrsitainity is twisted into something evil by small minded punks....oh well, the pain is temporary....

Me thinks "punk" is yoru favorite word. Oh, and for posterity's sake, it needs to be mentioned that I was nowhere near that thread at that time. So you see, it wasnt ME that "caused" you to act like that....

http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?p=504876&postcount=56

of course, you don't believe this, but who cares, it's the truth....the Bible has stood the test of time UNLIKE NO OTHER DOCUMENT IN THE WORLD.....it is relevant becasue it is God's Word....who cares what YOU think? who are YOU? everyone these days is an expert, what a joke...

--no, we never hear that from you now, right???:bigthumb:

there you have it...another marky claim disproven

again, for the 500th time...I was "banned" by pouya for a wise crack about Muslims (and he was Muslim btw)...after that, "merciless" just followed me around like the little annoying 4 foot chinaman he is

I wasn't banned for "improper conduct"...people like bajaman said far worse things than I ever did...I was banned because pouya hated everything I said, pure and simple

and yes, DoO was created in a large part because of the huge religion/origin threads I started, which pre-date the Iraq war and pre-date 9/11!

so what are YOU smokin? I was there before you, I signed on in mid to late 2000, I know the full story, you're just a punk talking smack, as usual

really??? you were banned ALL THOSE TIMES for one comment? Sorry, but no one here is that ignorant. You were banned DOZENS of times and many of those were for improper conduct. As I recall, didnt you get banned repeatedly over a short period of time for the threats you made?? THAT is improper conduct, moron. What about the unnecessary and undeserved comments made to serena in that one thread??? IMPROPER. The comments you made in your most recent banning just within the last couple weeks over there??? IMPROPER. Pouya did not even have anything to do with a lot of those bans, champ....but YOu had something to do with ALL of them.

Again, when ever will you grow up and just be man enough to admit your actions? Even if pouya banned you for a comment you made about muslims, WE ALL HAVE SEEN THE WAY YOU TALK ABOUT MUSLIMS, and that is ALSO IMPROPER.

and yes, DoO was created in a large part because of the huge religion/origin threads I started, which pre-date the Iraq war and pre-date 9/11!

Wrong again. There was only ONE section for general discussion all that time--the lounge. The second section was only added once the war in Iraq was imminent. The DoO was just a renaming of that Iraq section! And as I recall, you did not spend much time discussing the war in Iraq--but project and dltreezan sure did....

so what are YOU smokin? I was there before you, I signed on in mid to late 2000, I know the full story, you're just a punk talking smack, as usual

whadaya want, a cookie?? you signed on three years before DoO was named....that in no way makes you any more privy to what happened there. There were several of us that were in that section and IT began because the mods were tired of all the war threads in the lounge itself! THAT is how it began. Try some honesty now.

because it is so fitting for you and your ilk...

God created weeds

Like I already said, you were using that term to insult and mock people in threads that I was not even participating in, so get over yourself.

again, for the 500th time...I was "banned"....

you said it....

bx7--two things--

1--I do not now, nor have I EVER thought or claimed that I was free from guilt. Dont put words in my mouth or misconstrue what I said.

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth, but OK. You're still a sinner who has some of the same sin as YZF, me too for that matter. PHHT!

2--hiding a habit is one thing. Hiding a few habits is one thing. But hiding the person that you are equals fraud. You are talking about you hiding some sins from the church, or asking me if I ever said something that I did not tell a pastor about--this is the way Marky runs his entire life except for the time he is actually around the people in church! THINK ABOUT IT--

brags about everything he has, owns, the salary he makes, the 320 he can bench, etc etc nonstop.

hides his actions at work, when he uses their resources and time to get online and wish that someone would die soon....

AAHHH! I can't take it anymore. Someone shoot me. This is a moronic pissing contest. I've come to the conclusion that the three of you were meant for each other.

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth, but OK. You're still a sinner who has some of the same sin as YZF, me too for that matter. PHHT!

-which I have NEVER had a problem owning up to. No one sees me posting in here or anywhere else that my actions are "90% someone else's fault". But we all know who does take such a position....that is what he honestly believes, which is not just some sin that the christian commits even though he knows better--Marky doesnt know better. That is his thought process.

AAHHH! I can't take it anymore. Someone shoot me. This is a moronic pissing contest. I've come to the conclusion that the three of you were meant for each other.

whats the problem?? Is anything I said untrue? Didnt think so. Look--be honest--you fully know what has happened in the forum. You know the things that he does. I will leave it at that, since everyone else knows too.

see what I mean? are beginning to get the picture? TRY FOUR YEARS OF THIS STUFF

jon likes to argue for the sake of arguing, he is the undisputed king of arguing in DoO...he types out page long rants until people just get tired of dealing with it...perhaps that's why he's here now? everyone got sick of him

just don't lump me in with him....I love a good debate, but I can't stand petty arguing

where did you learn how to read, marky???

Try it again:

IAAHHH! I can't take it anymore. Someone shoot me. This is a moronic pissing contest. I've come to the conclusion that the three of you were meant for each other.

Obviously he already did put you in there....better luck next time.

Oh, by the way, for someone who hates petty arguing, you sure do go looking for it all the time....

I'm not here because of you, jon...you're because of me...that's the difference

you're a vulture

I am here because someone else invited me. As already told, shown and proven time and again, if all I wanted to do was antagonize you, then I CERTAINLY would not have defended you when I came here. Try making up a new lie--this one hasoutlived any semblance of usefulness.

It's also funny to see you complain about someone "being here because of you", after your performance that recently got you banned on 7 club. You were only in that thread to follow and harass me....but suddenly I am the vulture....keep repeating it, and maybe someday you migh tbelieve it, but no one else here does.

Then again, this is just another of your now-famous "petty arguments"....you know, the ones you hate so much....:bigthumb:

jon, try to be honest here....how many posts have you made here, and how many are in direct response to something I posted, or about me in general?

it must be at least 95%....I think the stats could be easily compiled

Perhaps you should worry about being honest yourself rather than asking the same form someone else. You lied about your actions. You lie about them all the time. You lied about the many bans you have received. You lied in the "knocking on heavens door" thread when you discovered that your pals were watching. You lie all the time about what you do, who you are, and what exactly you stand for.

Dont even think that you have any business telling ME to be honest. I may be an ass at times, but I am the same ass to anyone who acts the way you do. I dont put on a different version of myself to put on a show when I am at work, or in worship, or when I am with my family as compared to on here.....like you do. So, until you learn the concept of honesty yourself, dont even think about looking for it in someone else. NOT ONE THING I HAVE SAID was a lie. In fact, I probably still have the PM's from people inviting me here....you would be surprised to know that it wasnt Dennis or anyone else that routinely locks horns with you....then again, even after Iproved to one of your buddies that your sister in law initiated contact with me, you still kept up the lie that you claimed---that I looked her up just to start shit with you....again, more dishonesty from you.

Here's a very sincere tip--you want honesty? TRY USING SOME. When you do, and you learn how to show respect, you would be AMAZED at what can happen....

lol. sos...ignore the post and ramble on about my 'faults'

you do it all the time, I figured I would try it out and see why you keep that as your preferred tactic....

gee, I wonder why they invited you here??? perhaps the same reason kevin invited dennis and honegod here, to give me grief?

I wonder!

dude, youre an idiot, plain and simple. GRIEF???? Let me spell it out for you--ANYONE who acts the way you do EARNS THEIR GRIEF by the sheer nature of how pathetic they are. When I first came to this forum, people were piling grief on you like life depended on it, and I DEFENDED your sorry ass. No one needed me to give you grief--you were already getting a full dose of it from all sides, marky, and YOU KNOW IT. I was the only one in that entire thread that stood up and was HONEST about your actions, and for that you were nothing but a supreme prick with no respect for shit. I was more than polite enough to you, and to respond to that, you took it upon yourself to praise the heavens for the hurricane that took our house last year. Like I said, YOU MAKE YOUR OWN GRIEF. No one here was being particularly nice to you when I showed up, but I WAS NICE TO YOU. Look where it got me, jackass.

Maybe NEXT TIME, if GRIEF is what you are looking to avoid, perhaps you could try actually HAVING A LITTLE RESPECT. That doesnt mean that you have to change your ideals about God, but you COULD learn a little fucking compassion and honesty along the way--it certainly couldnt hurt! But NO--you want to act like a moron at every turn and then complain when your actions are NOT RECEIVED WITH COURTESY AND RESPECT. How retarded is that?? THINK ABOUT IT. When someone is polite to you and shows you respect, THAT is the time to RECIPROCATE IT. IT most certainly isnt the time to jump up and down for joy and wish that their new house gets taken out by a hurricane THIS year to match the last one, Mr. Wizard. You instantly went from "at least you're ok" to "I dont care what you say and I have absolutely no respect for you". WHY NOT ACTUALLY MAKE A GENUINE EFFORT TO NOT BE SUCH A PRICK?? You would be AMAZED at what it could get you....

lol....the supreme irony of that statement

you really live with rose colored glasses on, don't cha' jonnie?

again, honesty fails you, as usual. I already showed a genuine example of me being nothing but polite to you....and your reaction to it. No irony involved--I freely admit that I am not the nicest guy towards you by any stretch, but I have tried more than enough times, that if you REALLY wanted peaceful debates, you would have had no problem whatsoever. The FACT is that no matter how someone is to you, you cant help but be a flaming jackass in return. SERIOUSLY, how in the world do you justify it when someone shares with you events in their life, and you take those and turn them into something you cheer about?? You are hopeless, in the purest sense of the word.

it seems to work for me, until god yanks the carpet of reality from under my feet and drops me into The Pit[tm] for not hating enough.

lol....the supreme irony of that statement

you really live with rose colored glasses on, don't cha' jonnie?

it seems to work for me, until god yanks the carpet of reality from under my feet and drops me into The Pit[tm] for not hating enough.

I gave up on 'chat' almost instantly, too fast paced.

ya think?



I disagree....like I said to you before in PM, you expect perfection from anyone professing Christ, and when you see anything out of line, according to your "righteous"s standards, the jr. high name calling ensues...you are a spec in the eye inpsector, and it's laughable considering your history on these forums

I could take some of it from bx or tofu, but not from you



so, again....WHY ARE YOU HERE?? and why do 95% or more of your posts focus on me?

I'm hopeless! great! move on and have a nice life...

Do you have even the slightest concept of truth???

I NEVER EXPECTED PERFECTION, you idiot....If I did, I NEVER would have defended you for admitting FAULTS....stop making shit up as you go and DEAL WITH THE FACTS.

Oh, and you dont take it form anyone, as evidenced by the fact that no matter what anyone says ot you, YOU NEVER CHANGE. no matter who tells you about what you're doing, it always turns into you bitching that it is SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT rather than YOURS. Take the latest example from bx--here was your immediate reply....

see what I mean? are beginning to get the picture? TRY FOUR YEARS OF THIS STUFF

jon likes to argue for the sake of arguing, he is the undisputed king of arguing in DoO...he types out page long rants until people just get tired of dealing with it...perhaps that's why he's here now? everyone got sick of him

just don't lump me in with him....I love a good debate, but I can't stand petty arguing

Let's get this straight right fucking now--YOU ARE NOT SOME FUCKING VICTIM HERE. you have made your reputation ALL BY YOURSELF. But no matter who tells you what, it is always "everyone look at what I have had to go through!!!"

GIVE IT A FUCKING REST ALREADY....YOU ARE NOT EVEN FOOLING THOSE WHOM YOU CLAIM TO BE FELLOW BELIEVERS WITH YOU. bx lumped you in with two other people that he feels are WAY LOST.....there is a reason why he chose to put you there, and its NOT because you are some wounded bird of a victim, so get the hell over yourself.

--YOU made threats against 7 club members.
--YOU demanded addresses because you were going to "make them a bloody mess".
--YOU applaud the hardships of others, totally against the Word.....
--YOU pray for death and more hardship where Jesus Himself advocated COMPASSION for your "enemies".....
--and to top it all off, you try to use scripture to defend your actions that GO AGAINST SCRIPTURE.

Then there is the fact that you STILL Cannot own up to your shit! It is STILL "jonnie's fault"....you cannot tell the truth about a damn thing. ONLY A FOOL would do all the things you do and then wonder why people dont respect you. On the other hand, it's no wonder why the vast majority of those who insult you dont treat tofu or bx the same way....I wonder why that is.....

By the way, have ya been to 12 victoria lately??? Hmmm.....junior, huh??

jon, again...why are you here? is it to harp on my past sins for the 10,000th time? do you think anyone, aside from you, cares?

you are psychotic

I am here because I was invited. That is all you need to know. I have just as much right to be here as you do, so put a sock in it already.

And as I keep mentioning, this is not about your past sins---it is also about your present ones....in both cases, you take absolutely no responsibility for yourself or your actions, and you always try to find some way to pin those actions on someone else. how "christian" of you.....

ha....thankfully, you aren't privy to the PMs

ahh, so are you saying that he isnt telling the truth in the thread? BE CAREFUL--this is exactly what got you into trouble with Brian, genius....if he says one thing in the thread, and another thing in PM, that is hardly what God is looking for either...."let your yes be yes and your no be no"......

In either case, you need to grow a pair and learn how to be responsible for your own actions. jonnie is not here to take blame because marky is a self-centered arrogant dishonest hypocrite.

I know that

but why do you continue posting here...what exactly is your motive?



oh, I'm sorry, I need to confess all my sins to psycho jon, is that it?

beyond words....

Where was that ever said???

ADMITTING A MISTAKE and CONFESSING is not the same thing. when an error is pointed out, GOD EXPECTS a faithful follower to TELL THE TRUTH, and that is REGARDLESS of who the person is that mentions it. It doesnt matter if that person is "saved" or not--LET YOUR YES BE YES AND YOUR NO BE NO. LAst time I checked, being a Christian meant that your life was supposed to be used to paint a picture of God for others to see....what kind of picture do you think you are painting when you think you have the authority to choose when its ok to tell the truth and when it is ok to lie? God instructs the faithful, through the Bible, to let their LIFE reflect their DOCTRINE. Let me tell you, when someone is as dishonest as you are, seeing God's planned doctrine is not possible in there. Christians were called to a higher standard of action than the "inherently immoral" man, yet you act as any immoral man does every chance you get! When you dont have a chance, you often INVENT a chance to sin.

Better yet, dont take my word for it--Paul is a very good example of a humble christian. NO MATTER WHO WRONGED HIM, or WHAT TOOK PLACE, Paul first took responsibility for HIS actions. You NEVER do. With you, it is ALWAYS "the other guy", or "they are 90% to blame", or "see what I have to deal with??"....why not just have the balls to say I WAS WRONG???

You work for GOD, remember?? You dont have the luxury of picking and choosing when honesty is "deserved" based on the people speaking to you.

Brian knew basically nothing about me, poor example...we pm'd a few times...he's a kid

thats REALLY funny--you once considered him a fellow believer, UNTIL he revealed how you LIED to him about the whole dating thing....I still have those convo's, would you like a refresher??

The very minute you learned that he told the truth about you, you instantly branded him an ignorant kid....before that, you guys were even talking about having a Christian RX7 meet!!! But yeah, now you claim he was only some kid you exchanged a couple of PM's with....that's really funny. STOP LYING.

and jonnie is a really annoying asshole with no life except to hassle me on this forum

kiss my ass, jon

I forgive you

*ignored*

I'm done jon, I can't read one more of your vomit inducing posts in all caps

post away, I'm not reading any more of your shit

you said the exact same thing just a couple days ago....and look at how well you followed that one....like I said, you have zero credibility and you have no one to thank for that but yourself

even when someone forgives you, and yes that was sincere, you cant help but act like this. "all caps", thats funny--you cant even tell the truth about something so insignificant....

*ignored*

talk to yourself jon....no one is listening, no one cares

thats why you keep coming back??

Even you cant be this retarded....no, wait, I guess so....

exactly....dumbass

uh huh...all that proves is those mountain ranges were once underwater, which lines up perfectly with the global flood model


"wait....no, God! you can't do what you said you did! why? I, 95superliberalhack, say so!"


so where did the fossils come from ?

you have written that preflood there was little to no freestanding water on the planet yet there are multiplied yards thick accumulations of dead SEA life on the very place where the floodwaters were rushing AWAY from, the rapidly rising new mountains.

so since before the flood there was no noticable sea, DURING the flood is the only time where there was enough water, so in ADDITION to rapid rock formation, rapid fossilization, and rapid mountain forming, you must postulate rapid sealife breeding , to explain the sheer VOLUME of dead critters that DIDN'T get washed away by the newly forming mountains leaping upward through the turbulant Floodwaters.

?

when did I ever state that?

'our current hydrosphere is the product of The Flood.
preflood there were no mountains or oceans, just hills and rivers and maybe lakes.

so when the water came afloodin' it was easy to fill the globe to above the highest peak WITH ONLY THE WATER WE HAVE TODAY.

the mountains thrust up to balance the ocean floor sinking down to give The Flood waters a place to go.'



is how I understand you Believe The Flood event went.


so did god Create two oysters who had to frantically reproduce to generate the trillions of fossils found worldwide in the bare couple of thousands of years provided ?

Dude, he quoted something you said and you just flip the switch and say something completely different?
Wait, what?

Dude, he quoted something you said and you just flip the switch and say something completely different?
Wait, what?


just to be completely accurate, that was NOT a quote, it was a paraphrase of what I remembered him saying, asking for clarification and/or correction.

hence the ' quote marks followed by "is how I understand you Believe The Flood event went."

he's another 16 year old kid, you'll have to forgive (or ignore) him

when asked who the greatest in the Kingdom was, Jesus pointed to a child.....now, marky insults every younger member he can.....what scripture is that from?

when asked who the greatest in the Kingdom was, Jesus pointed to a child.....now, marky insults every younger member he can.....what scripture is that from?

That would be Mark 10:14-16

14 hen Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

YZFife thinks that by calling people 'kids' it maks him a bigger man....to bad children are the blessed ones.

Hey YZFife, how do you explain contenental drift then??? IE the magnetic record in the magma that has been proven to of occured over hundreds of thousands of years??? An actual recrod that explains the magnetic poles flips that have occured several times...longer than your 6000 YEC.

Yea, let your wild ass flood and YEC therories explain that one....because it can't.

That would be Mark 10:14-16

14 hen Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

YZFife thinks that by calling people 'kids' it maks him a bigger man....to bad children are the blessed ones.

Hey YZFife, how do you explain contenental drift then??? IE the magnetic record in the magma that has been proven to of occured over hundreds of thousands of years??? An actual recrod that explains the magnetic poles flips that have occured several times...longer than your 6000 YEC.

Yea, let your wild ass flood and YEC therories explain that one....because it can't.


nope, actually it is Matthew 18:1-4....

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Oh look, he called me a kid. How unique and ingenius. Wow. I'm shocked and amazed.
I'm actually quite proud to be half your age. Since you're mid-life that makes me quarter life. Something good about that

I have made an assumption about you Mark. You are about five feet tall, you build muscles to compensate for your lack of height (and presumably other physical features), and you have a sports car (I assume an FD) and a fast bike, but no family.
How right was I, bucko?

Oh look, he called me a kid. How unique and ingenius. Wow. I'm shocked and amazed.
I'm actually quite proud to be half your age. Since you're mid-life that makes me quarter life. Something good about that

I have made an assumption about you Mark. You are about five feet tall, you build muscles to compensate for your lack of height (and presumably other physical features), and you have a sports car (I assume an FD) and a fast bike, but no family.
How right was I, bucko?

before you get too wrapped up in slapping yourself on the back, you already know all of that just from what is posted here on the forums....well, except for the five foot tall thing--I think it's more like 4'2 really....

I think what really happened is that as a kid he got his ass kicked routinely. I bet that he was the one guy in high school that the whole class picked on. His mom made him take her to his prom probably, because no one else would go with him. So, he decided to get revenge by trying to inflate himself into the baddest asskicker in the land....which, by the way, he fails miserably at as well. he actually thinks that the bench press motion will win him fights. Obviously nothing but a lot of talk.

nope, I'm 5'11"....you can PM BDC of rx7club if you don't believe me, he met me a few months ago to tune my FD

how incredibly, and sadly, predictable....here's an interesting idea. LEt's see how many times marky has stated that he is 5'11" on this forum, shall we??

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=118980&highlight=5%2711%22#post118980

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=113137&highlight=5%2711%22#post113137

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=112770&highlight=5%2711%22#post112770

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=107882&highlight=5%2711%22#post107882

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=100606&highlight=5%2711%22#post100606

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=98910&highlight=5%2711%22#post98910

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=93815&highlight=5%2711%22#post93815

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=84955&highlight=5%2711%22#post84955

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=82744&highlight=5%2711%22#post82744

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=79596&highlight=5%2711%22#post79596

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=77879&highlight=5%2711%22#post77879

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=75614&highlight=5%2711%22#post75614

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=75600&highlight=5%2711%22#post75600

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showthread.php?p=71577&highlight=5%2711%22#post71577

No less than 14 times on this forum, he felt the need to inform people that "no, I really am 5'11"....", and all in less than 12 months. Can you say "inferiority complex"???

Now we know what the FD is for--someone is working way too hard to compensate for his, um, shortcomings....:owned:

if the above is in regard to false accusations....yes, I will defend myself against that kind of stuff

funny....you're ignoring me, right??

:asshole:

like I said, totally predictable

Also, here's a sincere question--why in the world on ice does it matter this much to you what people think about your height on a friggin internet forum?? How many of these people do you actually think really give a shit about your height? So someone jokes about it....SO WHAT??

how can someone claim to be so secure in the protection of God for something as major as armageddon, yet be so damn insecure about something so trivial at the same time? You, sir, need to get some real confidence in yourself--not the kind that requires you to "prove" your height to a bunch of strangers that couldnt seriously care less. Like I siad before, the only reason why ANYONE keeps mentioning how short you are int hat pic is becayse they 100% know without doubt that lil marky will come a-running as soon as they do and try to defend himself, and you play right into it every time.

SOME THINGS ARE SIMPLY TOO PETTY TO WORRY ABOUT....dont you think by now, with all your "education" and all, that this should be one of them??? Oh, sorry, I forgot--your education and "intellectual credentials" are treated in the exact same manner by you as this one is....

No, actually, those were all assumptions. I really only usually post in the religion section.

The FD was an assumption because he always talks good praise about the FD section.
The rest of the stuff (other than the bike, I assumed that partially from his username) is all assumptions based on act and character.

it was incredibly lame the first time, superhack

Well it just gets under your skin and you are just as guilty of it as I am idiot.
Don't shoot yourself in the foot with your one bullet brain.


catastrophic plate tectonics, which occurred at the time of the Flood

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/AnswersBook/continental11.asp

For an 'educated' person you sure do believe some stupid shit in terms of so called 'scientists'.
So we have a current model, one of plate tectonics. That is a proven fact, and has a definate growth rate of only a few feet a year, and you want to believe that all of a suddent the continents were hurled apart during a flood? Along with volcanoes that gush out water?

BTW, how many marsupials were on the ark?

Why the hell am I trying to convince a moron who actually beliefs this crap?
I'm out of here!

Why the hell am I trying to convince a moron who actually beliefs this crap?
I'm out of here!


Good question!

What made you click on the relgion section in the first place then?

I'm sure that IF god manifested himself in physical form, he can surely do it again.
Read the key operative of course.

he claims to be a Christian, and believe certain portions of the Bible that don't happen to contradict his version of "science" (falsely so-called)....to be honest, I'd be surprised if he believes in the literal resurrection of Christ

profesing to be wise...they became fools

yet another pompous "intellectual" will be humbled

doesnt that sound an awful lot like yourself....

1--intellectual...."show me your educational credentials, I have an engineering degree....", repeat ad nauseum.

2--pompous....needs no explanation, we all already know it too well.

3--will be humbled....perhaps someday.

4--claims to be christian....yes, you do.

5--only believes in parts of the bible...yes you do....especially when Jesus tells you that its a bad idea to pray for someone's death, and you think that the writings of a sinner in Psalms take precedent over the Son's own words....

Good call....

again, what does that have to do with earth's past? NOTHING! what you are talking about is not science, it's the religion of uniformitarianism and reverse extrapolation of the facts


uniformitarianism = observing the current rate of a process, plus all observed modifiers to the rate of the process, and extending that rate into the past TO SEE IF THAT WOULD EXPLAIN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE PROCESS.


note the OBSERVED modifiers bit.


I read that uniformitarian assumptions versus creationism is not unlike walking outside in the morning and seeing everything covered with snow and ASSUMING that the snow fell from snow clouds, as it has been observed to do many times in the past, instead of assuming that each snowflake was handcrafted in place by elves from the north pole.

both assumptions would explain the snow but snow clouds HAVE been frequently observed, where magic elves handcrafting snowflakes have not EVER been observed.

"of COURSE the magic elves have not been observed, they are MAGIC, Fool !! you must accept them on FAITH."

"TRUE scientific meterology must be based on FAITH that the invisable magic snow elves bring the snow, what you WRONGLY ASSUME are snowflakes "spontaniously created" by CLOUDS are handcrafted snowflakes BLOWN into the sky by the giant snow king in the sky........"

"that you have observed snowflakes being blown into the sky PROVES the existance of the giant snow king in the sky."

based on the assumption all things continue as they always have, which is inherently flawed, according to God's Word

don't care, gods word has nothing to say to science, the truth of the bible being entirely subjective and limited.

subjective in the mind of god and limited to the will of god.

silly putty, with a Hell.

measurements are meaningless because god can change the constants at whim.

and He IS a whimsickle terrorist.

so instead we assume that constants will STAY constant until measured otherwise.

and keep on measuring those constants with ever evolving tools in the HOPE of measuring a variation in a constant that will require an entire new model.


in the last days

not, I note, the last YEARS.
so what sort of scoffers are these biblical scoffers ?
that erupt so blazingly from the background noise of us mere mortal scoffers ?

satans hired thugs in the back of the theater shouting to throw rocks instead of tomatos ?


a global flood (and it's effects) are not observable, testable, or repeatable, and neither is radioisotope decay within rocks or tectonic shift over supposed "millions of years"

50%, or less.

indeed, your imaginary flood IS "not observable, testable, or repeatable" but REAL floods are.

atomic reactions are well measured, barring unmeasurable fantasy, when a graph shows a continuing streight line and EXTENDING that streight line accuratly describes other measurements the reason for NOT accepting the measurement as a constant is ... ?


both require the data to be filtered through a model....the Bible is the right model....human speculation is the wrong model

fitted IN the model, with the model being modified to fit the Data.

you bring NO Data and boast of the glory that keeps the True data a secret, most cunningly hidden from ... everybody.

look at how many times you have to say I believe the Truth is exactly opposit what the bible says.

not, Know, but believe.

not Data.

whimsical human understanding of the physical universe doesn't trump God....God trumps whimsical human understanding.....every time

right, given.

god set it up to fool us.

any measurement we make has the constants chosen by god.

so god crafts the constants to show he isn't needed.

thus fooling everybody who looks at the numbers alone into NOT believing in him.

so he can send us all to hell with a clear concience.

we get to see a nice orderly universe careening along totally out of control and try to find the steering wheel.

with no measurements at all to indicate that we are the playthings of a perverted 3 year old.


and this is even more applicable with regard to events of the distant past
there is evidence for a global flood of 4300 years ago, but it will not be repeated and those who observed it are dead

computer simulation.
only asleepin'.


you bring current data and attempt reverse extrapolation for imaginary time scales, which is completely absurd (and unscientific)

so that's where My missing "imaginary" got to, I was wondering.

is it absurd to plot the orbit of the earth backwards a few billion years just to see where it might have been when the light from those distant stars we so admire* started out ?


{*Saturn is out nice, and since the Moon got out of the way it's been cloudy EVERY night. I got to see the Rings once. :bowdown: :screwyou: }

:40oz:

can a watch that runs well design and build itself?

does a watch that runs well include a watch factory, with onboard R&D facility, in its design ?

Revelation 7

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb


and that is just those saved out of the Tribulation: an uncountable number...millions, perhaps billions

so...which is it??

On one hand, we have:

"Narrow is the gate, and few will find it....."

"Many will call the name of the Lord, but few will be chosen..."

And on the other hand, we have:

an uncountable number...millions, perhaps billions

As soon as you make up your own mind what precisely you stand for, please be sure to let us know....mmkay??

hey now, watch it....I can bench 320 ya know....and I can stand next to a crotch rocket too, in my socks....in a ditch....and cry about how short I am for years to come....by the way, what are YOUR educational credentials, huh punk?? I really oughtta make your face a bloody mess.....

...but instead, I am just gonna ignore you, without really ignoring you....I will SAY I am ignoring you, but I am gonna talk about you more times a day than I scratch my sack....but hey, it's still cool....cuz...I'm IGNORING you....

hehehehe

can a watch that runs well design and build itself?

Been attending philosphy lectures?

It's one of the basic theories that they use in support of a creator. Like all theories, it can be undone.

awwww.... don't ya wanna know how it's done?

If elements of design point to a creator then it is logical to assume that the more elaborate the design, the more ingenious the creator. The issue with this reasoning however is that the state of design varies from observer to observer. A feeble mind might view something as being more complex than it really is. Thus, it can be argued that the state of design is an illusion of the mind that is too inept to truly comprehend what it is looking at.

In other words, though the watch appears to be designed, we are just incapable of fathoming the notion of a watch that wasn’t designed.

or conversely stated, an advanced, yet still feeble, mind can recognize genius, even though it is beyond his power to fully comprehend it

Really? If a feeble mind is not capable of comprehending genius, how can it recognize it? Sure, this dullard could guess or assume. Perhaps he could take someone's word for it. Maybe you could call this recognition by association?

The problem with calling the incomprehensible genius is that it's difficult to draw a line between something that's impossible to understand, like the nature of God and something that's damn near impossible to underrstand, like something written by czar.

(I'm pretty sure I've heard this before)

Is that the same answer that you've heard before?

no, that's a different slant, I'm thinking of evolutionary hypotheses of randomly organized information (such as the Dawkins article posted by moses)

the trick is in the word "information".

there is information in the rise and fall of temperature of the air in a specific place, but there is no intellegence needed to CREATE the information, the only intellegence present READS the information.

so the information exists in the mind of the observer, not in the data itself.

this would be the "information" found in DNA.


the trick is that "information" is generally used to denote COMMUNICATION, two intellegences passing information back and forth, informing each other.

so by applying THIS meaning to when science is using information in the FIRST sense it is made to appear that bill gates is talking about DNA as being a messege from god when he admires the information storage capacity of DNA.

clash of paradigms.

goddists require all information to be a message FROM someone.:bowdown: :screwyou:

scientists, don't. :bigthumb:

information is intrinsic to everything, even a single hydrogen atom....without information, energy and matter are chaotic

right, exactly what I said.


helpful read

only if you enjoy finding lies and misdirection.

One of the classic examples of such ‘order out of chaos’ is the appearance of hexagonal patterns on the surface of certain oils as they are being heated. The minute the heating stops, this pattern vanishes once again into a sea of molecular disorder.

These patterns, like the swirls of a hurricane, are short-lived, but are structures which require information to describe them. The information they do contain is intrinsic to the physics and chemistry of the matter involved, not requiring any extra ‘programming.’

so we HAVE observed patterns that form naturally, "in opposition to entropy", that DO contain ADDITIONAL information that did not exist before.



natural processes do not write programs.

natural processes DO "write" SIMPLE "programs" BECAUSE of the inherent complexity "intrinsic to the physics and chemistry of the matter involved".

that leg of your "impossible" is false.

"additional" is not the correct term..."pre-existing"


no, snowflakes take infinite forms because the way the atoms are shaped ALLOWS the structures, ALL of the possible structures.

so all the possible forms for a snowflake pre-exist in the atom, yet a specific atom will only realize ONE form at a time.

WHICH form it currently occupies at the moment IS additional information that is NOT found in the pre-existing structure of the atom.

this information IS GENERATED BY "RANDOM" FORCES.

but the fact is the molecules themselves are structures, and not random in the way they form....do you disagree?

YES!! I disagree.

Molecules came from nothing, out of nothingness.

They EVOLVED.


END OF DEBATE.

you also have to be a little stoned ;)

you also have to be more than a little stoned :bigthumb:

:40oz: <----- Pepsi

As iron sharpens iron,
so one person sharpens another.

Satire, I believe, is a totally acceptable form of debate. :)

but the fact is the molecules themselves are structures, and not random in the way they form....do you disagree?

nope, and you're totally wrong.

the shape of the atoms determines the range of possible molecular structures.

random works on the choice of WHICH possible molecular structure the next atom along will impose.

which reduces the POSSIBLE choices to fewer than infinite and so possible for the right atoms to come along to produce ANY possible molecule.

and DNA is a simple one, ALL of its wonderous complexity is in the COMBINATIONS of a few simple compound atoms repeated over and over in a long chain.

so, the chain formation is most assuradly NOT random, but the choice of combination {"information"} equally surely is. rolling the dice.

so the molecules are both random and not random at the same time, depending on what you look at.

If you think everything assembled itself into just the right combinations of it's own accord, you believe crazier things then you say we Christians do :P

everything assembled itself into just the right combinations of it's own accord

it has no self, so it has no accord.

there is no "right" combination, there are only possible configurations.

so yes, everything just fell into possible combinations.

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot, and don't understand even basic chemistry

sounds like an opinion, with no foundation save occult superstition.

I don't believe in your magic so I must be an idiot.

:asshole: formation of molecules is primarily based on valence state, not "shape"....as if an electron cloud has a "shape"

so if I had started talking about chemical interactions as being a purely :smacktalk: ELECTRONIC thing you WOULDN'T have called me stupid ?:blah: :smacktalk: :stupid: :screwyou: :blah: :peace: :repost:

"shape" is shorthand for ALL the variables that contribute to what other atoms "see" when they get close enough to our hero atom.

to Darick from Cassie
I love you Darick you are my best friend.

it has no self, so it has no accord.

there is no "right" combination, there are only possible configurations.

so yes, everything just fell into possible combinations.

You just totally skipped over the whole point.

You can do better then that, comon.

use explicit, direct language....say what you mean....since when do atoms have a definite "shape"?

the mean reason I don't respect you is your ongoing flair for esoteric, off-the-wall statements, which often have little basis in empirical science...you're entertaining at times, and that's about it

but it ALWAYS do have that little base in empirical science, or the bible, whever angle I am approaching from.

I might build them high and creaky, but the foundation is good, if narrow.

{ I visualize the three egyptian pyramids stacked atop each other, points down. }

atoms act and react to their environment in identifiable ways, gravity, strong and weak forces, van der waals, and the like, complicated, well measured physics stuff, you would prefer "fingerprint" to shape ?

you believe crazier things than you say we Christians do :P

then ?

if the things I believe {note small "b" believe} are crazy at least they are founded in measurements rather than the INTERPRETATIONS of the data.

I do not Believe Einstein, or Hawking, but I believe their thoughts are supported by the numbers that they know about.

if Hawking says a black hole radiates Hawking radiation because a half of a spontaniously appearing partical pair falls in and the other escapes looking like the hole emitted an energetic partical, I see no reason to not suppose my heat dead universe ignitor.

you Believe that god sent satan to trick them, and me, into believing lies so god can send us to hell.

{if that isn't more along the lines of what you were hoping for, give me an easier hint ? :bigthumb: }

use explicit, direct language....say what you mean....since when do atoms have a definite "shape"?


http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/science/mod2_aei/index.html

When an element has atoms that differ in the number of neutrons in the nuclei, these atoms are called different isotopes of the element. All isotopes of one element have identical chemical properties. This means it is difficult to separate isotopes from each other by chemical processes. However, the physical properties of the isotopes, such as their masses, boiling points, and freezing points, are different. Isotopes can be most easily separated from each other using physical processes.

your original statement sounded like a 3rd grader

it is a first grader that I am doing explanations to right now so that is a COMPLIMENT :bigthumb:

thanks :D

can you solve complex differential equations? if not, can you recognize the intelligence of those who can? this seems rather obvious to me....the tiny machines within a single human cell are intricately designed, do I comprehend all their functions? heck no, but I can recognize genius when I see it

we can't "see" atoms, but we recognize genius there as well


I liken this to a blind man admiring a painting.

(forgive the untimeliness of this response; my mind has been slow to recover)

Atrophy.

you were corrected, and you were in error...certainly nothing new here

in fact, your life and philosophy represent one continual expression of error, and it's all a big joke to you, which is the real tragedy

why do I even waste my time....

oh yeah, thats right....you "confront error"....

Riddle me this, genius--how can one confront error when he himself is drowning in his own error??? Give it a rest, hypocrite.

Nerd

put the kid away man

were you talking to honegod or your date for this evening?

riiiight.....I bet....

with the "girlfriend".....or, was it with the "several girlfriends"?? Oh, no, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot, you're back to the "one girlfriend" again....

As soon as you make up your own mind about the lies you wish to spread in regards to your imaginary social life, please let us all know....

kim plays with Hana ?

is that your 12 year old daughter, Hana?

nope, Hana is in first grade too, she is in a wheelchair, kim helps Hana get seatbelted into her wheelchair.