I believe that my conscience guides my morality. I believe it a component of my intelligence as a human. That's not to say that I think the conscience is developed proportional to intelligence, but just that less intelligent spiecies are void of a conscience, like squirrels and mark.
I think that the human conscience is tied directly to emotion. If a person is extremely angry, hateful and lacks compassion, he won't be limited in his actions by his conscience. If a person is charitable and compassionate, his actions will be limited by his conscience.
I believe that we are all born with a conscience and, like any other part of our minds, it is cultivated and shaped by our social interaction (-or lack of) as we mature. I think we are all products of our environment to some degree.
I have morals, I am compassionate, and I have no faith in God.

Discuss...

(Except you, mark. I want opinions, not bullshit from you.)

haven't you ever run across someone who you think couldn't possibly have a conscience?

haven't you ever run across someone who you think couldn't possibly have a conscience?

Like serial killers?

yes, and people who torture children and that sort of thing

Uhmmm, ...no, not really.
How many of those types of people have you run across? I'm talking first hand?
It's fairly rare that we find such people in our culture, right?

-Maybe before we discuss where morality comes from or is developed, we should first agree (loosely) on it's definition and what constitutes "acceptable" morals. (That way we can argue about the different things that corrupts or destroys a persons morality, too...)

So what would you call a person who PM's and posts this type of crap....


you're such a piece of shit
seriously, you need to be thrown into a landfill



go get your own help you worthless piece of crap, I'm sick and tired of your mindless diatribe here, I hate every satire posting bullshit thing you say here....just look at your pink slipped, inheritance check living, divorcee train wreck of a life

Like serial killers?

The Son of Sam, David Berkowitz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz#Berkowitz.27s_life_in_prison

Was that God who told him to do all that, or his dog?
-Same difference.

Mark, go fuck yourself. No, like seriously. Go fuck yourself.

I call the conscience as a part of the individual personality that can be developed, "cultivated" if you will, and also degraded by the presons environment, mental illness, or chemicals.
A perfectly sane and cute 13 year old kid who is very respectful, caring, and nice to be around, who feels genuinely bad about having done something wrong like stealing may have had his morality completely fucked up by religious brainwashing in his environment. So blowing away non-Muslim fundementalists may have no effect on his conscience while everything else normally associated with it remains intact.
A once devoted family man who would never have dreamed of theft or violence may find his morality completely corrupt and overpowered by his physical and mental addiction to crack.
And the seemingly good Christian next door with three children tries to teach them all good moral values when suddenly she cracks and drowns them all, truly believing that God told her to do it.

Ultimately, the question is do we need faith or fear in God in order to have a good and healthy conscience, and I say that the answer is unequivocally, "No".

I wonder how much 'searing' a person needs to start praying for the death of others.
OR to tell them they need to be thrown in a landfill.....


Somebody hurt you bad Mark to make you go down that path...I suggest talking to a counselor.

off topic, psycho stalker...get a counselor

lol, just like a little kid. " I know you are but what am I" ....

Man I am serious, you should hear yourself. Honestly, show these threads to someone in your church and get their opinion. I think that you'll be surprised. ...that is if you even have the balls to do so.

okay elaborate on why you think we're born with a conscience and what exactly a "conscience" is when we're born

okay elaborate on why you think we're born with a conscience and what exactly a "conscience" is when we're born

As to the "why”. I would say for fundamental survival. The ability to separate self from surroundings allows for the brain to autonomously seek out needs such as food, safekeeping, family, etc...

I think my first answer is relevant to the second part of your question. The ability to exhibit emotion based upon the necessities of self preservation is clearly a sign of consciousness.

As to the "why”. I would say for fundamental survival. The ability to separate self from surroundings allows for the brain to autonomously seek out needs such as food, safekeeping, family, etc...

I think my first answer is relevant to the second part of your question. The ability to exhibit emotion based upon the necessities of self preservation is clearly a sign of consciousness.


Actually, they have recently shown that dogs also have the ability of 'fairness' thru the measurement of food....wild stuff.

What does a conscience have to do with "survival"? Absolutely nothing. If we are no more than animals, as Darwinists assert, why would anyone feel guilt over stealing, for example? Why would anyone risk their life to save someone else?.

lol. Do you think a baby cares how it gets its food?

Get out of your incredibly limited naturalist thinking mode for once in your life. Expand your TINY world.

My understanding of the question was consciousness during the VERY early stages of life. Of course it changes over time.

yeah we're talking about conscience here, ie, some sort of inherent sense of morality.. not CONSCIOUSNESS

yeah we're talking about conscience here, ie, some sort of inherent sense of morality.. not CONSCIOUSNESS

whoops....my bad

First off, Fuck you mark. Just go fuck yourself. You don't even have a conscience.

Without social interaction (and so, teaching and growth as one matures), the human conscience doesn't grow very much. Since we are social animals, we rely upon each other for our needs, and our conscience plays a vital role in how we are treated (and provided for) by others as adults in any social community.
The tough "alpha dog" wannabes often seem to have dulled consciences, or at least a lesser sense of compassion, as well as loners.

Mark is both.

First off, Fuck you mark. Just go fuck yourself. You don't even have a conscience.

Without social interaction (and so, teaching and growth as one matures), the human conscience doesn't grow very much. Since we are social animals, we rely upon each other for our needs, and our conscience plays a vital role in how we are treated (and provided for) by others as adults in any social community.
The tough "alpha dog" wannabes often seem to have dulled consciences, or at least a lesser sense of compassion, as well as loners.

Mark is both.

lol here let me rephrase.. I wasn't asking about the purpose of a conscience.. I was asking what is the basis of your belief that we are born with one

lol here let me rephrase.. I wasn't asking about the purpose of a conscience.. I was asking what is the basis of your belief that we are born with one

hard to answer. perhaps conscience is learned; the article below may suggest we aren't born with one. Perhaps we are born selfish instead.

The Associated Press
November 9, 2008

ST. JOHNS, Arizona: By all accounts, he was a good boy. No problems in school. No disruptions in his religious education classes at St. Johns Catholic Church, where he was to mark his First Communion this year.

So the police and neighbors in the 8-year-old's small eastern Arizona community are at a loss to explain why he would have used a .22-caliber rifle to kill his father and another man at their home.

lol here let me rephrase.. I wasn't asking about the purpose of a conscience.. I was asking what is the basis of your belief that we are born with oneWell, maybe we're not. Maybe we are born completely selfish and some of us, like mark, never grow out of that.
But irregardless of whether we're actually born with it or it develops on its own within us, I believe ultimately everyone has one, whether it's severley damaged or not.

I believ the conscience is tied directly to compassion for others. A person wouldn't feel bad that he wronged another person unless he realized how his action made the other feel. This is what I mean by "our conscience plays a vital role in how we are treated (and provided for) by others as adults in any social community".

Mark has no compassion for others, so his conscience is not fully developed in that respect. For example, he actually doesn't feel bad inside for praying to God for jon to die of cancer.
:asshole:

AND I resent the "loners have less compassion" comment

Off topic.

off topic herchel; reported

centertext

OFF TOPIC!

I’m not sure why everyone seems to think that people are born inherently good.

off topic, ark. go hibernate another month.

off topic, ark. go hibernate another month.

Will do. Had to come home for my sister's birthday, hence my posting here on a saturday night.

Are you suggesting that we are born either bad or good, Ark? -What dictates that, physiology or spirituality?

I'm not suggesting that we are born either way.

Well ark, I guess no one wants to bother playing 20 questions just to get your opinion.

We aren't born good or bad. Guilt is an emotion that is triggered by one's morality. People seem to see morality and equate it as some moral compass that we are all born with, which tends to translate to "conscience". Those who would consider themselves religious would say that this speaks towards some sort of divine creator. Those who would not might argue that it's the human condition that unites us all and separates us from the animals (or some other such hippy nonsense). On the whole though, these are just explanations that we tell one another for various purposes. Morals are formed and developed. They are not innate. The excuses for why we act the way that we do are simply made to justify some other aspect of one’s life. There is no all encompassing human standard that everyone can fall under. Children might be innocent, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have to be taught right from wrong.

Ok. I'll buy that.
So basically you're saying that morality must be taught, correct? (....Or learned.)
Is it something that's easy for humans to "pick up" without it being drilled into their heads, or can morality be developed on it's own, with limited social interaction?
How does the aitheist have the same morality as the faithist?


...Well there ya go. 4 of 20.

I don't know how familiar you are with cases of kids who have been horribly mistreated or isolated with little human interaction and who have more or less grown up in these conditions, but they are not what we would normally call "human"

and are you asking what reason would an atheist have to be moral?

How does the aitheist have the same morality as the faithist?

I don't believe that they do.

keep guessing

I don't believe that they do....Examples?

I strongly disagree with this, and it goes against common sense and everyday observation. Children from all over the world know right and wrong. Yes, the conscience can be informed/influenced/dulled, but it's there, and it does separate us from animals.

Actually, the epistles indicate that at the judgment of unbelievers, the witness of one's own conscience will be used against them.

No they don't. Morality is learned, children are not born with a sense of it.
Children fear upsetting grownups in position of power, so to avoid that pain they develop a sense of morality threw social mores....

Didn't you ever take a sociology class in collage????? Geez your statements smack of moronic ramblings of a closet shut-in know it all who needs a life outside of the internet. NO ONE here thinks anything you have to say is of value.

...Examples?

Is it against your morals to use God's name in vain? How about eating beef? Cutting your hair? I could think of more but I think that demonstrates the point.

My God if anyone listens to this idiots tripe you deserve a glass of kool aid.
I cant believe that he is now using the bible as a sociology book....

Answer the question...DID YOU EVER TAKE A SOCIOLOGY CLASS IN COLLEGE OR EVEN H.S.??

sociology and psychology is worthless new age psycho babble, and it's predictable warped minds like yourself, crammed with useless information/trivia (the same worthless mind that conjures up "local flood" stories) pushes worldly philosophy so hard

get the heck outta here, superhack

Come on there mark...answer the question.....
Did you ever take a sociology class at any time? My guess is that you didnt, judging by your ignorant remarks. I swear you make a fool of your self every day. This is way to easy :roll:

taking the name of the Lord in vain....add that to your list (along with ongoing adultery)

outside....destined for hell.....weed


Wasnt in vain....and you are bearing false witness....
LOL :owned:

Is it against your morals to use God's name in vain? How about eating beef? Cutting your hair? I could think of more but I think that demonstrates the point.
Uhhhm, no.
Care to elaborate on just wtf you mean?

No they don't. Morality is learned, children are not born with a sense of it.
Children fear upsetting grownups in position of power, so to avoid that pain they develop a sense of morality threw social mores....Heh-heh... -Just like uberChristians fear God. ;)

from the ultimate Authority....which trumps any random human opinion......And you can't figure out why everyone hates you. You pooooor lil' puddy.
-It's alright, just keep using your faith as the reason everyone hates you. Maybe you'll fool God into thinking you're really a martyr.

You're a mockery of Christianity.

Uhhhm, no.
Care to elaborate on just wtf you mean?

You asked if someone who is an atheist has the same morality as a "faithest" to which I presume you mean someone who considers themselves religious.

Your examples are not ones of morality so much of religious comformism.
At best, they are very much specific to religions.
Let's stick with examples of ,orality that are not specific to serving God, but rather humanity or an order of social behavior conducive to comfortable interaction and coexistence.
You don't seem to want to partake in the actual discussion.

Ark2 dodges and dashes like a well greased piglet. In the past arguments with him I looked deeper in his statements and found he over generalizes facts; basically he'll try to prove to you that both the apple and the orange are the same thing. Yup, since indeed they both grow on the planet earth.

He's simply doing his best to keep the thread alive without fully participating.
His interest isn't in the topic, it's in watching how I interact with mark.

Your examples are not ones of morality so much of religious comformism.
At best, they are very much specific to religions.
Let's stick with examples of ,orality that are not specific to serving God, but rather humanity or an order of social behavior conducive to comfortable interaction and coexistence.
You don't seem to want to partake in the actual discussion.

I find myself indifferent to the topic. I do not believe that we are born with a conscience as I have yet to see a strong argument that speaks for such.

Oh, and try not to pay any attention to czar, he speaks in riddles of stupidity.

ouch
bad ark bad