Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Doesn't this seem to suggest that the Messiah will have children? How does YZF explain "seed"? I would think that you'd have to identify every use of 'seed' in the OT and see if there's ever any other meaning aside from the children of whom it is referring.

Because that would lead to a line of "GOD"s by blood. Ala Dan Brown's the DaVinci code

Sexuality in any sense is inherently evil.
-You didn't know?

There is nothing "of" Jesus. The supposed carpenter, what had he built?
It's because he was no more than any of the thousands of other vagrants killed by the Romans.

God created sex, not Hugh Hefner...how can it be "inherently evil" when the perfect God created it?

Not that I disagree with this, but didnt God also create all that is evil?? He created everything, both good and bad, no?

Why are you so afraid of the idea of Christ having kids?! Jealousy? (EX. I am not Arabic so therefor I can NOT be of Christ's bloodline therefor there can not BE a bloodline)

Isaiah 53

He had done no violence,

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;



15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

overthrowing a table is a violent act.

from the first statement in bold, it's obvious Christ had no offspring, so that nullifies any of the ridiculous Dan Brown nonsense


And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living; ]

I'm not sure that I follow you here (Not that I disagree with Jesus being the Messiah, after all who else named Jesus could be answering my prayers?), are you suggesting that "cut off from the land of the living" means he had no children? If so, can you think of other scripture, and really we would need to get back to the OT hebrew for the most precise wording, that provides another example of this. I see "cut off from the land of the living" as meaning he was killed. I don't clearly see this referring to him not having any children.

I don't believe he had children, in any event, since it's not recorded that he married. And he certainly wouldn't have had children outside of marriage.



When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

the passage in question, at least in my view, is simply a reference to the fact that the coming Kingdom over which Christ will rule and reign will be a never ending Kingdom, and so the days of the Messiah will be "prolonged" indefinitely, and God will "not allow His Holy One to see decay" (Psalm 16)[/i]

Can you think of any other reference where seed is not described at descendants? If it is always used in reference to descendants, you have to weigh it more towards that meaning. Understand, I'm not trying to trip you. I thought you might have some insight.

the word 'seed' is replaced in the NIV with 'offspring' in fact....I suspect that this is because of the common usage of 'seed' to mean exactly that.

Originally Posted by yzf-r1

from the first statement in bold, it's obvious Christ had no offspring, so that nullifies any of the ridiculous Dan Brown nonsense


And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living

I fail to see how 'cut off from the land of the living' means the same to you as 'he bore no children'. They are not even close to the same thing. Not that I disagree with Jesus having no children, but they just do not mean the same thing.

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

overthrowing a table is a violent act.


Good point, I'll have to think about that one.



As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

no....but God allows Satan to do his work, and God always knew evil would occur for a pre-determined period of time, for a pre-determined purpose

God created sex, designed to be enjoyed within the context of the covenant of marriage....and in 2006, you have every possible perversion, and inversion, of that Divine creation imaginable...because mankind is depraved

Because God chose for mankind to be depraved. God could have spared mankind all the drama, could have created mankind without the ability to do anything but follow the rules, but didn't... Therefore, God caused all of this to happen. Not you, not me, not Satan... God did it.

everything was very good until Satan caused sin to plunge mankind into destruction

But, God created Satan, and God could have either A) not created Satan, or B) created Satan without the capability for evil, but didn't, therefore, God created evil.

it was a justified act, not a random act of violence

Oh, so now some acts of violence are justified? So, a pro-life Christian is justified in killing a doctor who performs abortions then?

no....but God allows Satan to do his work, and God always knew evil would occur for a pre-determined period of time, for a pre-determined purpose

everything was very good until Satan caused sin to plunge mankind into destruction

You're going to have to do better than that....I am not some uneducated guy taking shots in the dark here....

POINT--God created EVERYTHING, including Satan, did He not?

POINT--God put evil in front of man, did He not?

POINT--God put the serpent in the Garden of Eden, did He not?

POINT--God knows all before it even happens, does He not?

The point I was making that you butchered so well is that God created that which became evil, created the method for that evil to be revealed to man, allowed that revealing to take place, and did so, all the while knowing what would take place.

Stop acting as if Satan is the one and only being responsible for evil--God created Satan knowing full well what Satan would do, and He allows that evil to take place.

Remember how the bible begins?? In the beginning there was NOTHING until God created it all--so how can you deny that God created evil??? There was neither good nor evil until God created it....He is not known as the creator of all for nothing, Mark....

Satan only did what God created him to do--and only did what God allowed him to do. God created a being that he knew would be evil....there is no denying this.

Oh, so now some acts of violence are justified? So, a pro-life Christian is justified in killing a doctor who performs abortions then?

Come on, don't try to make a connection between throwing over a table and killing another human being. Unless He threw a table at someone, I would not consider this a violent act.

As for God creating evil, if you believe that this world is the result of the Almighty then you have to believe that evil is God’s handy work. Whether it was created intentionally or not, He certainly sustains it. When Satan committed those atrocities against Job, who gave him the green light?

As darkness is the absence of light

Evil is the absence of God

we've been over this.....a few times

If I’m repeating myself then I apologize, however the same questions always seem to be asked around her. The fact that the same answers are often prompted is only natural.

so, yes, God allows evil....temporarily...for a purpose, and that purpose is to build patient endurance and perseverance into those He has called

in fact, contrary to popular whimsical perception, endurance and perseverance is one of the key traits of any mature Christian, and any servant of God throughout history....look at the O.T. prophets, look at Moses or Elijah....were they not put to the test, BIG TIME?

if it was easy, wouldn't everyone get through the "narrow gate"?

No argument here.

As darkness is the absence of light

Evil is the absence of God

Huh? That sounds nice but it doesn’t really make any sense. The absence of God is nonexistence, not evil. Hell, if you’re the type of person who believes that evil is needed to “build patient endurance and perseverance into those He has called” shouldn’t you be thankful for its existence?

It is true that I am oversimplifying, thank you for pointing that out. It's not a biblical view.