http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html

There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. If the evil carnage we witnessed on Sept. 11 were typical of the faith, and Islam truly inspired and justified such violence, its growth and the increasing presence of Muslims in both Europe and the U.S. would be a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, this is not the case.

The very word Islam, which means "surrender," is related to the Arabic salam, or peace. When the Prophet Muhammad brought the inspired scripture known as the Koran to the Arabs in the early 7th century A.D., a major part of his mission was devoted precisely to bringing an end to the kind of mass slaughter we witnessed in New York City and Washington. Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare, in which tribe fought tribe in a pattern of vendetta and countervendetta. Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts, and the early Muslim community narrowly escaped extermination by the powerful city of Mecca. The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia.

Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).

In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).

Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its "pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war" but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level--personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad," the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.

Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book," who worship the same God (29: 46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49: 13)--not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.

So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.

It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.

Misinterpretation by fundamentalists at it's finest.

The article is junk, but could you explain your comment?

It's quite simple. It's basically selective reading that Islamic Extremists like those in Al-Qaeda use. Preach hatred based upon the text that claims infidels must be slaughtered, but don't bother reading the other parts that preach peace unless attacked.

Little bit of a biased source there huh? I mean considering it was written by a Reverend.

Straight from the Qu'ran interpreted by a Reverend. Any and all religion is based upon interpretation. Obviously, you and I have differing opinions on the matter; whereas you believe every single Muslim is filled with hate and I believe that like ALL monolithic religions, Islam has bad apples. Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a loyal Christian, a servant of god. Osama Bin Laden claims to be a loyal subject of god (Allah). And as the article clearly points out, Goldstein thought he was a martyr for killing innocent Muslims.

So now I ask you again, where do you get that ALL Muslims are filled with "hatred, forced conversion, and murder"?

Do you also believe that ALL Christians are pure? Are all Jews anti-violence?

You speak out against an entire religion that you have incorrect, libelous, preconceived notions about in a religious section that clearly states that all religions will be respected.

You are very ill-informed about the Islamic faith.

Doubtful in comparison to you, considering my background. Good try on the assumption though.

and what exactly is your illustrious background? you're what, 23? a mixed persian from NY who has some Muslim buds, and you're an authority on the Quran? :roll:

21, 22 in June. My father is Iranian and was raised Muslim. He became an atheist years ago though. My mother is an American of Georgian descent. She was raised Episcopalian. I went to both a Mosque and Church due to my parents wanting me to decide on a religion for myself. I frankly decided upon neither, but I studied BOTH for several years. Does this clarify?

What exactly does it explain? That because I am young I don't know anything? That because my father became atheist I don't know anything? Can you actually debate, or do you solely rely on personal attacks to make a feeble attempt to get your point across?

Man you and those assumptions. Getting you in trouble. If you do not agree with something, that's fine. But to come out with these attacks on my family and upbringing is incomprehensible.

I guess the definition of assumption changed recently imo.

Yet you 'claim' (Please note: For this instance, the word claim is NOT a synonym of assume) that because I am young and because of MY FATHER'S raising that I was "raised in ignorance"? I think based upon everything you say here, it's more or less a pot-kettle-off white (Politically correct) argument from you. Also, I would respectfully ask that if you have nothing nice to say about a religion that you very apparently know nothing about, that you refrain from leaving ignorant comments. Thanks.

I know more about what the Quran says than you ever will, I took a six week class on it, and I've read the best authors in the world on the subject

This is just laughable. It doesn't deserve a response.

the FACT is, it's a satanic rip off of the scriptures, written 500 years later by a child molester who had demonic visions....everything else is banal rherotic by blinded minds...you lose (eternally?)

Everyone knows everything Mark says is fact right? OK, just checking.

what truly ASTOUNDS me are the number of bleeding heart liberal morons in this country, who, after all we have witnessed in the world over the last 10 years (let alone the last 100)...all the mass killings, suicide bombings, mistreatment of women, on and on and on, they still defend a relgiion that is clearly straight out of hell!

amazing lack of discernment...truly beyond words...when all along Genesis has recorded the sons of Ishmael would be a violent people, a wild ass of a man

Once again, this doesn't even dignify a response. The entire Muslim world attacked the United States on September 11th. This is fact right? :stupid:

it's true though

I absolutely TOWER over you in knowledge

Of course you do Mark. Of course you do.

much of it danced in the streets after the attack

Sure. Because the media showed you video of some in the West bank dancing, it now means "most" of them did.

yep....and if I had my way, supporters of the religion would be deported on the spot

I guess that's why you work in Sanitation or whatever you do.

I actually work for the 15th Highest Ranked Company on the Fortune list. Google it.

Yep. Everybody at IBM, including the Janitors gets a laptop. That's how balla the company is. ZOMG Are you 16!?!?!?!

So, a mod smacktalking outside of the smacktalk section? Doesn't look good!

I'm smacktalking? R u srius?

Yep, he is too, but you're the mod, you're supposed to uphold the forum laws and be a good example.

You're held to a higher standard of judgment! :D

I guess Mark's intolerance is viral.

Word!

Preach on Brother Mark! Tell me about Armageddon; while simultaneously wishing cancer upon people!

Interesting topic. It helps me understand how people who are caught up trying to live in a so-called truth (Quran, bible) respond to outsiders of their thoughts in an animal fashion.

Islam is not a religion of peace, it's a religion of hatred, forced conversion, and murder...anyone who thinks otherwise is naive, plain and simple

get educated
http://answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html

4) All Religions (or lack of Religion) will be treated with RESPECT. No slander, no stereotypes, etc. By this, I mean no posting things like "All Muslims are terrorists destined for hell", that type of thing. If you're in doubt, don't post it. Run it by a mod if you need to.

Your post is against the section rules.

nah, just stating the facts

No, you are stating your opinion, and doing so in the manner in which you are doing it is against the forum rules.

I think that it's fair to criticize Islam, just as it is fair to criticize Christianity, Judaism, atheism, Scientology, etc. I don't think that there should be 3-4 threads going on about Islam at the same time though. That's unnecessary.

I think that it's fair to criticize Islam, just as it is fair to criticize Christianity, Judaism, atheism, Scientology, etc. I don't think that there should be 3-4 threads going on about Islam at the same time though. That's unnecessary.

I think there is a difference between "criticizing" Islam and what Mark is doing, which is blatant slander.

If I start a thread about Scientology, posting an article, then giving my opinion about how I think that it is a silly fairy tale and that all Scientologists are trendy morons, would this be in violation of the rules?

If I start a thread about Scientology, posting an article, then giving my opinion about how I think that it is a silly fairy tale and all Scientologists are trendy morons, would this be in violation of the rules?

Depends. Can you disagree with them without saying they are all terrorists who are destined for hell?

I think that as adults, we can disagree with each other or with different religious beliefs without acting like Mark has been acting.

yzf: do you believe that all muslims are terrorists who are destined for hell?

That's what I am trying to figure out. It's fine to say that "jesus is a joke" or to post cartoons saying that religious people are "disgusting", so where is the line?

Mark, you're full of it. Look at the thread YOU made called "Islam: the Religion of Hate, Terror, and War", and you're going to try to say they aren't all terrorists destined for hell?

That's what I am trying to figure out. It's fine to say that "jesus is a joke" or to post cartoons saying that religious people are "disgusting", so where is the line?

Nope, it's not. And you might remember when someone put up a cartoon about Jesus that was disrespectful, I made a sticky of it as an example of exactly what NOT to do.

Hey, that's fine with me, just want to know where things stand.

Nope, it's not. And you might remember when someone put up a cartoon about Jesus that was disrespectful, I made a sticky of it as an example of exactly what NOT to do.

who dat?
Religion section WAS fun to post in.
now it is...........:screwyou:

who dat?
Religion section WAS fun to post in.
now it is...........:screwyou:

Is that why you don't post here very often anymore?

Some parts it is.

The Religion section is waiting for a great teacher. Likely, that teacher will never appear here. But we are making room for such a person, cleaning up the attitude and such. Currently, it is an empty room where a few retards chime in but nothing substantial can be learn except how humans, with special social problems, interact with each other.

the bottom line is it's open season for mocking and berating (and in some countries, torturing) Christians...everyone knows it...but God help you if you slam the innocent little Muslims :rolleyes:

beyond words

Hey, I am just as against slamming the Christians. I actually don't have a problem with anything to do with Christianity. My problem lies with the contradiction of YOUR behavior with Christianity, which you profess to love.

the bottom line is it's open season for mocking and berating (and in some countries, torturing) Christians...everyone knows it...but God help you if you slam the innocent little Muslims :rolleyes:

beyond words

here's what I would like to know...

marky, you laugh at the thought that Islam is a religion of peace. And you use one quote that someone else wrote somewhere, and their interpretation of that quote, to support this.

Lets turn this around a bit....what if someone came to you doubting christianity? What if they came to you using this scripture to support their case?

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

What would your response to that be?

My response?

Sweet! I'm on my way over right now! We'll be rich! And own a large chunk of the promised land! AND we're doing God's will! We cannot be defeated!

this is the Church Age...yes, Israel was commanded to conquer the Promised Land (although that was for a specific time and place, which has come and gone)...Israel never had as a prescribed objective global domination

it's interesting how the Quran borrows many phrases and personalities from the Bible, however...what else is there except to rip off the original and then claim it is "corrupted"? but Israel is it's own proof there is ONE God in 2008, and we ain't seen nothin yet

-You haven't read the Qu'ran.
-The Bible is NOT the original for the second time.
-6 Weeks of study on the Qu'ran is NOT enough time to learn anything about it.

this is the Church Age...yes, Israel was commanded to conquer the Promised Land (although that was for a specific time and place, which has come and gone)...Israel never had as a prescribed objective global domination

it's interesting how the Quran borrows many phrases and personalities from the Bible, however...what else is there except to rip off the original and then claim it is "corrupted"? but Israel is it's own proof there is ONE God in 2008, and we ain't seen nothin yet

nice way to try to sidestep the issue, but you need to do better than that.

Let's consider something else--you basically just hinted that the scriptures I posted need to be read in the historical context that they were written in, isnt that correct? Well, the same exact thing is true about the one quote from the Quran that you know. In fact, that quote that you and so many other "scholars" misinterpret was given as instruction for muslims DURING WAR. Not one of your "highly educated experts" mentions this fact.

So, the Bible doesnt show that the chosen people had instruction to work on dominating the world?? You need to go back and reread the bible then....someone who knows as much about the Bible as you do about Islam could easily consider the great commission a command to do just that---dominate the world:

"Go and make disciples of all nations...."

See what happens when you take things out of context, marky?? Thats why you should try practicing what you preach once in a while. Incidentally, the great commission has NOT come and gone---isnt that what the faithful are still instructed to do to this day? So, while the historical context is such, the other examples are not.

Still awaiting your thoughts on the things I posted earlier....and heres another question. If someone came to you with doubts about God, but they had not read the bible--they were only relying on misquotes of the bible by others--what would your first suggestion be to them?

no, you havent--and you have told people the same thing before when the Bible is the topic. You have told people that you cannot just read parts of it here and there--that taking parts and pieces is not going to give you the proper context which can only come by reading the whole thing. So why the double standard when it comes to yourself? Is the Word really that shaky in your mind that reading the Quran would fracture your faith? Or are you just being a hypocrite?

Or are you just being a hypocrite?

Winner.

Nah, he's right, it is not good to study false doctrine.

Nah, he's right, it is not good to study false doctrine.

only one problem there--

how can a person tell which one is "false" without studying them?

There is not one thing that prevents a true christian from at least looking enough into Islam that they arent spouting off bullshit against it with every new post. If marky cares enough to constantly whine about Islam in a half dozen threads at a time, then he should care enough to at least use his own brain instead of counting on these people he's never even met to spoon-feed a mind to him. Think about this--he has no knowledge himself, but proclaims what is right and wrong through the words of others. Compare that to the example of the Bereans and let me know what you come up with.

In the end, marky does a million things against his doctrine, its rather odd that this time, when he's totally outclassed in the debate, does he choose suddenly to follow it. When he doesnt follow doctrine any other time, he makes a pack of reasons why its cool that he didnt.....but all of a sudden this is the road he takes, when he knows he cannot win with the argument he's presented. Hell, if you want to take the tack here that "it's against doctrine", then why arent you denouncing this whole anti-muslim shitfest from the beginning? I'm quite certain that scriptures can be readily found that speak against the methods marky's using here. If DOCTRINE is the issue, then make it the issue across the board, and not just when it suits you.

yes, but Paul was a shining example of living for God. you arent. Paul made it his mission to serve Christ. You dont. You invoke "doctrine" when you choose to, instead of all the time like God commanded. There is a big difference. The Bible commands to live as an example for God. It doesnt command to post a half dozen threads at once, insulting people wrongly and with ignorance, just so you can say "My god's better than yours".

If you wish to approach this with maturity, from a purely educational point of view, I would be happy to join in--in fact, I've been asking questions in just that manner and you constantly either side-step them or outright ignore them altogether. Well, not even from me, but from anyone else as well.

lol. same old stuff, when soundly defeated (yet again), resort to personal slander

I think he knows the book is trash too. He doesn't really want to argue for the authenticity or validity of the book, but he wants you to scripturally back up the claims of Islam being a religion of death.

It's been a personal thing from the beginning, he doesn't hate you because you're a Christian or anything, he hates you on a personal level.

He's not asking anyone else to prove whether or not Islam is of hatred or peace, just you.

lol. same old stuff, when soundly defeated (yet again), resort to personal slander

what the hell is the matter with you??

1--slander? WHAT SLANDER? All I said was that you insult people with ignorance--did you or did you not misinterpret that Quran quote in the other thread? THAT is the IGNORANCE I mentioned. Didnt tofu even tell you that your interpretation was wrong and out of context? But you choose to ignore the TRUTH about it just to complain about me?

2--you havent soundly defeated anyone or anything--you havent even answered the questions I asked! You cannot "soundly defeat" someone in a debate when you dont even address what they ask you, geniuis.

NOW, can you address the questions with maturity, or is being fake like this the only option youve got?

I think he knows the book is trash too. He doesn't really want to argue for the authenticity or validity of the book, but he wants you to scripturally back up the claims of Islam being a religion of death.

First, tofu, youre right--I dont belive the Quran is the right book.

Second, youre partially right with backing up the claims. What I wanted was for marky to wake the hell up and realize that misinterpretations happen with every religious book...and more specifically, to realize how he himself has misinterpreted the only quote from the Quran that he apparently knows. you even told him that in the other thread and he still makes those same claims regardless.

It's been a personal thing from the beginning, he doesn't hate you because you're a Christian or anything, he hates you on a personal level.

He's not asking anyone else to prove whether or not Islam is of hatred or peace, just you.

Now, I'm sorry tofu, but this is the most retarded thing I have seen you say. Why on earth should I be asking anyone else to prove that Islam is hate--NO ONE ELSE HERE IS SAYING THAT! What--am I supposed to wrongly claim that youre saying it the way marky is, so I can ask you the same things?

And, please, do me one favor and lay off the "personal level" bullshit. If you read my posts, they are nothing but polite, with genuine questions and relevant points. I am not insulting him--I am challenging him to read things and answer questions. OHHHH, what HATRED that displays....:eek:

It's really simple--this guy doesnt know squat about the Quran. He listened to someone talk about it for six weeks some years ago, and he reads what complete strangers have to say about it now. That is NOT enough to understand anything. I aksed this question and unsurprisingly got no answer--what if someone only heard snippets of the Bible taken out of context? What would marky suggest? OF COURSE, we know what he would say--weve seen him say it! "Read the whole Word, you cannot take parts and pieces out of context!" So, why is it acceptable for him to do the same thing to the Quran that he admits will not provide full understanding of the Bible, and then claim he has that understanding?

I asked several questions that were polite, genuine, and relevant. Those questions still remain unanswered. If someone like marky's gonna start six threads at once(ruh roh, I must have "slandered" you again, huh chief??) all bitching about how Islam = evil, and someone asks legitimate questions, then marky better have enough knowledge to answer them. But he doesnt--and he cannot admit it. Instead, he ignores them, sidesteps them, falsely accuses me of "personal slander" when none was posted at all, and then claims victory.

So, I guess we cannot count on getting marky to answer those questions anytime soon, right? He's too busy doing a victory dance for not "winning" anything.....

So, I guess we cannot count on getting marky to answer those questions anytime soon, right?

originally posted by yzf
...... ..... .....

yeah, thanks for proving my point.

Oh, on a side note, you dont "win" by preaching to others. You "win" by preaching to others the way God commanded and living your life in the manner God instructed. There is a major difference between what the Bible commands and the way you present yourself. Thats not "winning" anything, chief, but since you feel the need, continue on with your victory dance--you know, for "soundly defeating" me without even addressing anything I asked or brought up???!!!?

tofu, you're right

:)

Now, I'm sorry tofu, but this is the most retarded thing I have seen you say.

:'(

Why on earth should I be asking anyone else to prove that Islam is hate--NO ONE ELSE HERE IS SAYING THAT! What--am I supposed to wrongly claim that youre saying it the way marky is, so I can ask you the same things?

Wat?

And, please, do me one favor and lay off the "personal level" bullshit. If you read my posts, they are nothing but polite, with genuine questions and relevant points. I am not insulting him--I am challenging him to read things and answer questions. OHHHH, what HATRED that displays....:eek:

Irrelevant, doesn't change the fact that you dislike Mark for who he is.

It's really simple--this guy doesnt know squat about the Quran. He listened to someone talk about it for six weeks some years ago, and he reads what complete strangers have to say about it now. That is NOT enough to understand anything. I aksed this question and unsurprisingly got no answer--what if someone only heard snippets of the Bible taken out of context? What would marky suggest? OF COURSE, we know what he would say--weve seen him say it! "Read the whole Word, you cannot take parts and pieces out of context!" So, why is it acceptable for him to do the same thing to the Quran that he admits will not provide full understanding of the Bible, and then claim he has that understanding?

Yes, it's a valid argument, however, he is somewhat correct, his argument just isn't structured properly.

He chose to trust some people with credentials instead of doing the research himself.

Sorry if my post was too brief or seemed obnoxious or something, I am having a wicked migraine and am really close to just vomiting on the keyboard.

Wat?

simple--you earlier said this:

He's not asking anyone else to prove whether or not Islam is of hatred or peace, just you.

My response was this---why on earth would I be asking someone else besides marky to substantiate an arugment that only marky is saying? Why should I be asking people other than him? he's the only one in here saying the things he's saying! That in itself kills your entire claim that these posts are focused at him because I dont like him--I am responding to his POINT OF VIEW with points and questions relevant to that POINT OF VIEW. It has nothing to do with me not liking him--I left that out of it entirely when I posted politely with no insults. Unfortunately, he couldnt do the same, and now accuses me of "personal slander" when all I did was say exactly what he posted.

If you want to point a finger, point in that direction where it belongs, not at me for politely debating a topic. I thought thats what you guys wanted to have in here?? I guess you only wanted it when it suits you.

Irrelevant, doesn't change the fact that you dislike Mark for who he is.


The only thing thats irrelevant is your original claim that me not liking him had something to do with why I posted in this thread. I dont like him, but I left that alone entirely and focused on the questions and the issue of the thread. He couldnt follow suit. And for that, youre thinking that I did something wrong? Good call....better luck next time.

Look, its this simple--if marky's truth really is truth, then no harm could have possibly come to him, his faith, or anything else if he had addressed this topic with honesty instead of hiding behind excuses. Dont complain about made-up reasons why I asked questions when I didnt post anything out of line.

And the bottom line still stands--the one and only reason why I asked HIM those questions is because HE is the ONLY ONE who expressed his point of view. You still have no legitimate answer to that, so of course it becomes a matter of "you singled him out because you dont like him". Horse shit....

Yes, it's a valid argument, however, he is somewhat correct, his argument just isn't structured properly.

How can he be correct at all, when the one and only part of the Quran he even posts has been shown to be out of context and misinterpreted, even by you!

Simply posting a wrong answer and then saying "this guy's a scholar, and HE said it so it must be true, youve been soundly defeated" is not correct at all. And thats all he's done here. Several people, not just me, have asked him questions, he has yet to honestly answer any of them....

He chose to trust some people with credentials instead of doing the research himself.

Which has already been addressed! There are people all over the place with "credentials". Does that make them infallible? Does that mean that everything they say is like a drop of gold from heaven? OF COURSE NOT. In fact, he hasnt even read the accounts of those with credentials enough to know what those credentials are! I pointed out errors with his claims about those credentials before--and if he's not paying enough attention to even know what credentials the guy's got, how can he be correct for blindly buying into everything the guy says?

There are people with credentials that span decades in Christian teachings, but because they are Catholics, marky would dismiss them in an instant, because they have the "wrong" credentials--they were taught the wrong things. How does that standard suddenly get to change now, when it benefits his argument to do so? Not by any honest legitimate method, I can tell you that.

that's a cop-out, kevin...you've said many times over the years the Bible is "stupid", etc...you sound just like Dennis when he says "it's not the message, it's the messenger" yet when you get past the smokescreen, it's clear he hates anyone who promotes the scripture, not just me

fence riders and grandstand watchers always have an excuse for doubt! but all finger pointing disappears at the judgment, then it's YOU and GOD

No, no, no. I said for many years that "You can't use the book that worships Christ to prove that Christ should be worshipped. You must be stupid, stupid, stupid."

I think the Bible is wonderful for what it's supposed to be: A way to teach people morals and values. What I find frightening is the people that use it, much as the militant psychos do with the Quran, to try to manipulate people into a certain type of behavior.

same difference...in other words, the scripture are not an accurate or true record of events

No, it's not the same difference. I think that using that argument is stupid. I think that the Bible is a useful tool, but I disagree with how seriously you take it.

if it's used as a way to manipulate people, that's clearly wrong, but if it's used as a way to reason with people, that's good, but it is accurate

I also think you use it as a weapon to beat over people's heads, but again, you can't force people to believe.

just like everyone else involved in this discussion

regardless of what the pundits here may claim, no one on this forum is an expert on the Quran (to say the least)...in fact, I doubt anyone here has even read the whole thing, so that argument is a strawman, and an attempt to divert the obvious: the Quran does command all Muslims to participate in jihad..period!



hope you feel better :)


you cant even tell the truth about your own actions, and suddenly you think youre some sort of authority on what we have done ourselves?

Good luck with that. This is precisely why I said you arent capable of participating in a real, civil religion debate--because when you run out of answers, you then turn to making shit up as you go. That isnt consistent with your "I'm always right" claims, not even close. Better luck next time, maybe you can get a newb to fall for that crap.

no, actually, it isnt....until we look at your posts. Like I have stated already, I havent insulted you once recently. Not once. And you STILL cannot simply talk about the topic of the threads at hand, youre STILL whining "slander".

Tell you what--I have been offering nothing but civil posts recently. You always complain and say thats what you want in here--legitimate, civil debating. Well, YOU HAVE IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. And rather than take it and participate, you ignore questions completely, dont answer a damn thing, and then proclaim that youve "soundly defeated yet again", while throwing in the ever-present "slander" accusation where there was none!

You have your chance right in front of you--its been there for days. And you STILL havent taken it. So what are you waiting for? Why are you STILL whining and complaining about things that arent even happening in this section anymore, EXCEPT FROM YOU? All I've done is ask you legitimate, relevant questions and ask for your own thoughts on things. Why dont you spend less time complaining about what isnt even happening anymore and more time participating in the debates you claim you always wanted in here?

Go at it now...no holds barred.

there isnt any need to go at it. I simply want marky to answer the questions posted to him in this debate. Funny--the guy claims he's "always right", but he cannot answer even one relevant question thrown his way.

He's a typical whacko neo-con POS imo.

I don't think Mark is liberal. He seems far far far right.

key word being "right"

God is never wrong, folks...liberals deny absolutes to their own loss

Unless the "absolute" is a completely personal choice. Again, yelling "the sky is falling!" at the top of your lungs doesn't make it true.

3500 years and counting...an unmatched track record of veracity and authority

Not really. There are other religions that have been around longer. The "predictions" in the Bible are a lot like a 12 year old female gymnast: Flexible enough to fit just about anything.

take a look at the amazing history of the Jews

You mean God's very own chosen people, who don't believe in Jesus? Those Jews?

look at Israel in 2008, look at the globalist agenda and what is predicted for the near future, look at the constant attacks on Christianity and multiple cults that emulate it.

NEWSFLASH: Every religion is persecuted by those who don't belong. Example: Look at your behavior towards Islam.

the evidence is there

Sure, and by hand picking evidence you can prove almost anything. Like AIG and their ridiculous interpretation of blood types. I can prove that I can transfuse you with dog blood with no ill effects if I hand pick my evidence to support the viewpoint I want to prove. It's all great in theory, if you are explaining it to people who only have a simple comprehension of it. Tell you what I will do: I will print out the AIG blood types thing and show it to EVERY blood bank tech I know. Those 50 or so LICENSED EXPERTS will say the same thing I did: "This is impossible."

Mark, that's the reason why I challenge you to read things for yourself. That's why I tell you to find non-Christian websites to back up your arguments. If you take everything from only one perspective, there is a lot of information you will miss out on.

Suppose you and I are sitting across from each other at a table. There is an apple in the center of the table. From your perspective, it's a beautiful apple: Red, shiny, perfect in every way. It looks absolutely delicious, and you say to me, "Hey Kev-dog, doesn't that apple look great?" However, from my perspective, it's bruised, split, and has a worm sticking out of it. By only looking from one perspective, you never get the whole picture. Sometimes, you need to ask questions that you may not like the answers to. Sometimes, you need to look beyond your personal beliefs and figure out the truth for yourself.

Now, I have a pretty good idea why you aren't willing to do that: Because you are afraid what would happen to your self-image if what you believed was untrue. If you actually read the Quran and realized that it's no more violent than the Bible, that Islamic people don't have to wage holy war, then you'd have to question other things.

You need to understand that different doesn't always equal bad or wrong. Sometimes, different is just different.

Mark's elevator is broken imo.

Not really. There are other religions that have been around longer. The "predictions" in the Bible are a lot like a 12 year old female gymnast: Flexible enough to fit just about anything.

Have you read the prophesies that have been fulfilled? Here is one off the top of my head.

Example: "Jesus left the Temple and was going away, when His disciples came to point out to Him the buildings of the Temple. But He answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down." (Matthew 24:1-2 RSV)


Then in around 33 to 40 years later - from Wikipedia:

"In 66 CE the Jewish population rebelled against the Roman Empire. Four years later, in 70 CE, Roman legions under Titus reconquered and subsequently destroyed much of Jerusalem and the Second Temple. The arch of Titus, located in Rome and built to commemorate Titus's victory in Judea, depicts Roman soldiers carrying off the Menorah from the Temple. Jerusalem itself was razed by the Emperor Hadrian at the end of the Bar Kochba Rebellion in 135 CE."

I believe it was that Titus wanted to save the temple because of its beauty, but because of the wild nature of the burning of the city, parts of the temple caught fire and the great gold dome melted and the gold dripped between the stones. After the place burned the soldiers chipped out every single rock looking for gold, filling the valley with the waste.

All that was (is) left was (is) part of a retaining wall (not actually part of the temple) that is now known as the Western Wall, or the Wailing Wall.



You mean God's very own chosen people, who don't believe in Jesus? Those Jews?

This is also as prophesied in the OT. :)

They didn't just miss it, they didn't even read it, a lot of rabbis discourage reading that section, or at least calculating the number of days.

Theres a reason a lot of lines were removed from the parsha cycle by those in charge . . .

but they are no longer relevant, or widely practiced



agreed...have you read the Gospels?

Out of my entire post, that's all you took out of it? That's it? That's all?

Hopeless. Utterly fucking hopeless.

Have you read the prophesies that have been fulfilled? Here is one off the top of my head.

um, tofu, hate to break it to ya buddy, but thats not a good example of anything other than common sense. Tell us, what building in existence, past or present, will last forever? And, since the Jews have always had a history of war, who wouldnt understand the idea that the temple would be a major target? Your post mentions the second temple--why was this the second one?

but they are no longer relevant

marky, you dont even know what relevant means. This whole thread got derailed by you because you refuse to answer relevant questions pertaining to the topic at hand. Its really funny to see you try to talk about "relevant" in the face of your complete inability to answer simple, genuine questions about this topic.

widely practiced

Another complete straw man--tell us all, genius--just exactly how "widely practiced" is true christianity? Arent YOU the one who always makes such a case about "narrow is the path and few will find it...."?? The number who practice TRUE christianity has to be quite small, because if real, genuine, 'as-God-commanded' christianity were widely practiced as youre claiming now, then far more people would be on that "narrow path" that you yourself always describe as only being travelled by a select few.

You cannot have it both ways, marky.

kevin, short of a miracle of God, you're a lost cause, and I'm honestly disheartened to say that, because I think you're a good guy...but you're completely indoctrinated in your universalist belief system...like so many, you've built up a fortress of error over many years that keeps the light out

marky, youre a complete idiot....


1--short of a miracle of God, EVERYONE IS A LOST CAUSE, genius. EVERYONE. yes, that even includes you, with your arrogant self-serving "I'm always right" bullshit.

2--you think he's a good guy? The same guy whom you told repeatedly to stick this forum up his ass? The one you refer to as "witch boy"? Who the hell are you trying to fool now? Let me assure you, it isnt working. Sure, you've taken to sending those emails to Chris now, but we all know how you treat Kevin....let me guess, that wouldnt happen if it werent for "psycho jonnie", right?? Like I said, youre a complete idiot.

Now, I dont suppose you actually have the ability to go back and answer the questions you keep trying to intentionally get out of answering....do you?

Ah, smacktalk religious section. This should be fun! prepared to be......

Hahaha the infamous Raoul Spider Monkey of Death.

So will faux Christians imo.

The LORD, declares: I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.

welcome to the near future of this planet

http://www.goatstar.org/Jesus2ndCome.jpg

welcome to my latest attempt to avoid all those questions I cannot answer, because I dont have the first clue what I'm even talking about to begin with.

/thread

promise?

I meant that post tells the story of this thread.

I applaud what Bush said today...indeed they are "godless"...and negotiation is futile, ironically, they will be "wiped off the map"

http://www.allhatnocattle.net/jesus%20bush%20cheney.jpg

thats like hilary clinton voting for herself in the upcoming election, dumbass--thats a vote without worth. you post one of the most incredibly biased websites in history and claim it to be "teh win". You suck ass, retard, why dont you go back to whacking off while reading Revelation....

kind of like telling someone else that you "owned" them

kind of like telling someone else that you "owned" them

:owned:

I wipe my ass with the pages of the New Testament.

that's your loss, doesn't change the fact it's true

My cornhole thought it was full of shit.

http://www.theforumlounge.com/d/14198-2/adults_with_imaginary_friends.png

http://www.theforumlounge.com/d/14198-2/adults_with_imaginary_friends.png

+500

or perhaps atheists are stupid

Or Perhaps people who dispute evolution are stupid. IMO of course.

http://metalwrath.net/files/pics/loljesus_06.jpg

http://metalwrath.net/files/pics/roxjesus_31.jpg

http://metalwrath.net/files/pics/roxjesus_26.jpg

http://metalwrath.net/files/pics/roxjesus_24.jpg

http://metalwrath.net/files/pics/roxjesus_34.jpg

I don't dispute empirical, scientific evolution (speciation/selection/genetic drift)

I absolutely dismiss darwin's fantasies about impossible transformations: goo-to-you, frog-to-prince, that sort of thing

So Humans didn't evolve from Monkeys? Alligators didn't evolve from dinosaurs?

My erection evolved from a flaccid state after watching Jenna loves Briana.

^ Proof imo.

^ Exactly ^

On a side note, I just used a pair of sheers to cut the hair on my stomach and do the pubes and it took like 2 minutes! This is MUCH better than the ~1 hour it took with my razor. Great Success!

no



lol...even your (false) teachers don't believe that

you truly are an idiot among idiots

They don't? I thought Alligators descended from dinosaurs. Irregardless, human beings most certainly evolved from monkeys. I will also believe empirical evidence over the crock of shit presented in the bible any day.

btw, vert, what do you actually do for a living, you little punk?

It's too technical for your cro-magnon mind to understand. :D

sure, that's why you're feverishly typing away on this little forum 24/7, because you're a "mod" :roll:

I got the wonderful perks of working a desk job. Hell a few days a month I just get to chill at home and work "remotely." Basically, they pay me to sleep much of the time. But that's ok...it totally sucks that it enables me to post 24/7 and I don't actually have to do any work whatsoever to be paid. :bigthumb:

Pretty funny me being a mod huh? It's also pretty funny that I can look back on your 9 pages (yes folks...Mark has 9 fucking pages worth) of infractions. :rofl:

I bet you had to have lots of timeout in kindergarten huh? Sitting in the corner, in the ole wooden chair, arms crossed, with that "I'm a tough guy and I'll kick your ass!" scowl.

Hit the nail on the head huh?

pwnt

head manager at Wendy's?

I pump septic like you. Only I do it remotely because I'm super 1337.

So YOU are the guy that makes shit water potable? I was always curious.

sure, that's why you're feverishly typing away on this little forum 24/7, because you're a "mod" :roll:

--says the retard who has five times more posts than people who have been here three times as long as he has...

:owned:

So YOU are the guy that makes shit water potable? I was always curious.

I guess thats why he is always so bitter--if you were around shit all day long for 8 years you would probably start to take on some of the characteristics of it too I imagine...

I guess thats why he is always so bitter--if you were around shit all day long for 8 years you would probably start to take on some of the characteristics of it too I imagine...

:werd:

groundwater remediation engineer, look it up...has nothing to do with wastewater

LOL keep feeding yourself that bullshit there skidMark.

Hey Mark...SHITTERS FULL!

http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/christmas-vacation/11.gif

WENDY'S

Sounds like a whore house?Are you the main prossy there?:boobies::boobies::40oz::40oz:

WENDY'S

Sounds like a whore house?Are you the main prossy there?:boobies::boobies::40oz::40oz:

like mc Donalds or Burger King, Wendys is another popular hamburger franchise. Thier hambugers are square. White Castles is another popular hamburger franchise. they rule all.

I live closest to a White Castle. I rule all.

Demons? Why don't you go fucking do the world a favor and play out on I-95 shit for brains. Better yet, keep riding your piece of shit keyboard of a street bike without a helmet at 120+ racing people (lolololololol mid life crisis ftmfw!) Remind me to piss on your multiple pieces of your body after you get in to an accident.

Demons? Why don't you go fucking do the world a favor and play out on I-95 shit for brains. Better yet, keep riding your piece of shit keyboard of a street bike without a helmet at 120+ racing people (lolololololol mid life crisis ftmfw!) Remind me to piss on your multiple pieces of your body after you get in to an accident.

To quote Mark's words, "Probably the best post in this entire thread."

To quote Mark's words, "Probably the best post in this entire thread."

+1

lol @ Literary Masturbation

http://www.theforumlounge.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1170&d=1126230972

http://www.theforumlounge.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1170&d=1126230972

She and I went out once. She sucked.

More importantly, she swallowed imo.

Here's my new ride. It sucks.

lol. I heart Porsches.

Here's my new ride. It sucks.

I drove that once. Nothing special.

Needed Gnawwwwwzzzzzz imo.

I'm not sure that Vert gets it?

there is something to get? wtf....

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=52110&postcount=32

Oh I saw that, but didn't make the correlation.