'Jesus Camp', directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (The Boys of Baraka), follows Levi, Rachael, and Tory to Pastor Becky Fischer's "Kids on Fire" summer camp in Devil's Lake, North Dakota, where kids as young as 6 years-old are taught to become dedicated Christian soldiers in "God's army." The film follows these children at camp as they hone their "prophetic gifts" and are schooled in how to "take back America for Christ." The film is a first-ever look into an intense training ground that recruits born-again Christian children to become an active part of America's political future.

I've uploaded it here:
http://www.illstreet.com/Jesus Camp.avi

I really didn't want to watch that, it looked really creepy.

But I'm taking your hosting it on your server to be a hint that you recommend we watch it :P

yep, a strong hint

how big ?

he says, looking at his network speed monitor struggling to hit a peak of 2.7kb/s

{besides, I already saw a Hitler youth camp movie, is there any real difference other than swapping jesus for hitler ?}

oop, 666mb, is it really worth 4 days download ? :(

I'll convert it to a smaller file if you want. I uploaded it at 2.3MB/sec :)

It's for sure worth watching. I had to stop watching it and go out because it was pissing me off that much.

thanks, I'll wait for the follow up show that covers the follow up camp that teaches proper suicide bombing techniques.

jesus akbar!!!!

'Jesus Camp', directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (The Boys of Baraka), follows Levi, Rachael, and Tory to Pastor Becky Fischer's "Kids on Fire" summer camp in Devil's Lake, North Dakota, where kids as young as 6 years-old are taught to become dedicated Christian soldiers in "God's army." The film follows these children at camp as they hone their "prophetic gifts" and are schooled in how to "take back America for Christ." The film is a first-ever look into an intense training ground that recruits born-again Christian children to become an active part of America's political future.

I've uploaded it here:
http://www.illstreet.com/Jesus Camp.avi

I've had the misfortune of seeing this movie a little earlier, as well as the interview of the lady who hosts this camp.

Laying of hands on a cut-out of Bush to pray for his leadership, teaching kids martial arts and drill routines to fight for religion, etc..

I have to say, it's movements like this which honestly keep me out of organized religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

http://www.cinematical.com/2006/09/29/review-jesus-camp/

According to the distributor, it "doesn't come with any prepackaged point of view", and it tries to be "an honest and impartial depiction of one faction of the evangelical Christian community”.

. . .

Uhhh, riiighhttt.

And also, why do you think they picked PENTECOSTALS to do the documentary on?

- - - -

I'm very interested to see Ark2's, bx7's, and YZFs comments on this.

well, everything these days comes with a prepackaged point of view. That is obvious. Simply claiming that it doesnt wont change that. That said, I didnt click on the link this time, but I have seen this before, I believe it is the same one....where they train kids fighting skills so they can "fight for the Lord"....its absurd. Those poor kids....

Is YZF seriously banned for 10 days?

I don't wanna have to wait that long to get his posts on this thread :P Unban!

I'm prolly not gonna get a chance to watch the rest of this film till Thursday.

Is YZF seriously banned for 10 days?

I don't wanna have to wait that long to get his posts on this thread :P Unban!

I'm prolly not gonna get a chance to watch the rest of this film till Thursday.

yeah, he is. This would be because he thinks its a good idea to run around and tell people he wants them dead and such. no matter how many times anyone, including you, have expressed disagreement at his lack of compassion, he ignores even those who he claims to respect. perhaps this should be considered by you as food for thought--so that next time he claims that he takes your rebukes, the truth will be remembered.

where I come from, when you really do respect someone like a brother, you pay attention to what they have to say, even if you end up disagreeing with it in the end, you at least show enough respect to listen. In any case, this is how much he respects you and anyone else around here. Hope he enjoys his vacation.

yeah, he is. This would be because he thinks its a good idea to run around and tell people he wants them dead and such. no matter how many times anyone, including you, have expressed disagreement at his lack of compassion, he ignores even those who he claims to respect. perhaps this should be considered by you as food for thought--so that next time he claims that he takes your rebukes, the truth will be remembered.

where I come from, when you really do respect someone like a brother, you pay attention to what they have to say, even if you end up disagreeing with it in the end, you at least show enough respect to listen. In any case, this is how much he respects you and anyone else around here. Hope he enjoys his vacation.

I can't say I see things the same way you do.

Though, _I believe_ it is possible that he thinks of of certain things in a similar fashion to you; wanting everyone to show enough respect to listen, even if you don't agree. Though, _I think_ he sees the respect in a different way then most people, and he's usually pretty bad at dealing with the (perceived or real) lack of respect.

The above underline emphasis is to show that these are just passive opinions of mine and I'm not pushing it as fact

I have personally found the best way to deal with people like that, who have different communications expectations or needs then you, is to adapt your own communication. For example, how do you think he reacted when people said:

"I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree because of _____"


I'm not saying that this will change his actions, I'm just pointing out a passive observation.


Now, again, I'll also point out I'm not standing up for all his actions, that is not in the scope of this post, and I believe I've already fully and adequately covered that topic in previous posts.


Anyway, the original point: I'm just really very interested in what he has to say on the topic of this thread.

For example, how do you think he reacted when people said:

"I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree because of _____"


I'm not saying that this will change his actions, I'm just pointing out a passive observation.

It's been tried, First few years debating him on RX-7 club forum, that's how most people attempted to talk to him. His replies were much as now; mocking science, mocking the poster, chortling at the thought of them burning in hell or dying horribly.

My opinion of "Jesus Camp" (from what I've seen of it), is, not much. The film attempts to portray all Christians as wacky extremists attempting to take over the culture, which has nothing to do with the true gospel. If anything, we recognize evil men will "wax worse and worse" as the Tribulation approaches, and only the personal return of Christ Himself will change that sad state of affairs. Furthermore, as you said, the film emphasizes the frenzied gyrations of the charasmatic movement, which has nothing to do with true worship and everything to do with emotional hysteria. MacArthur has an excellent book on the movement entitled "Charismatic Chaos". Ignorant people will see the film as representative of the true Church, and understandably want nothing to do with it, but such people are blind.

- From a PM I got from Mark ("YZF")

Wow sounds like an encyclopedia entry.

I'm very interested to see Ark2's, bx7's, and YZFs comments on this.

Heh, I wasn't going to bother watching it but now you've inspired me.

He's usually pretty bad at dealing with the (perceived or real) lack of respect.That's the understatement of the year.

Mark is completely unable or unwilling to admit that his behavior is the reason he receives no respect.

From a PM I got from Mark ("YZF")Yeah, like no one here knows who "YZF" is... :rolleyes:

his behavior is the reason he receives no respect.

Well, yeah. But it's not the only reason. He's standing for a very unpopular view.

Yeah, like no one here knows who "YZF" is... :rolleyes:

I just copied and pasted, he sent the PM under a different user name on the 7club, thats why he specified.

Well, yeah. But it's not the only reason. He's standing for a very unpopular view.Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Mark is an arrogant ass, and that hasn't changed since he first started posting on the RX-7 Club 4+ years ago. As I've illustrated in another thread, even his earliest posts consisted of bragging about his car.

Even if he never mentioned religion again, Mark would still be an asshole, a braggart, and a proven liar. Religion has nothing at all to do with his basic character, and that's something that neither he, nor you, apparently, seem to be able to comprehend.

It's not the message... it's the messenger and the manner in which he chooses to deliver it that is the root of all of his forum problems.

I believe you misinterpreted what I said ^_^

I believe you misinterpreted what I said ^_^No, I refuted your premise that Mark's message is part of the reason for the ire directed at him.

What's your educational history?

Err, sometimes it is. Seriously.

However, I'll give you that most of the time, it's not.

What's your educational history?

Embarrassing.

Err, sometimes it is. Seriously.If you paid closer attention, you'd notice that the ire directed at Mark isn't really based on his religious message, but rather on the fact that though he likes to talk about it, he will not participate in a debate about it. He may think he is, but regurgitating whatever he's read on AiG or ICR as proof and referring to the Bible as 100% factual is not debating a subject. For example, not once have I ever seen him use the words "I think..." or "I believe..." to preface an argument.

The point you're missing is that the topic of discussion is irrelevant. Mark could be arguing about cars, baseball, music, whatever. The recurring theme is that A) he's always right, and B) even when it's been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he's not, he'll deny it, change the subject, or try to shift attention away from himself. That's his nature. He will NEVER concede that he's been caught in a contradiction, or can't provide evidence to support his viewpoint.

Mark's biggest problem is his own pride.

All generalizations are dangerous.



Even this one.

so are absolutes.

Originally Posted by YZF
we recognize evil men will "wax worse and worse" as the Tribulation approaches, and only the personal return of Christ Himself will change that sad state of affairs.

through violent mass murder of everybody who doesn't toe the line.

which makes this camp an absolutely perfect response, train your kid so he will be able to join the ranks of the destroying army that jesus will set against unchosen humanity.

I can't say I see things the same way you do.

Respectfully, I dont see how you couldnt. but in any event you are certainly entitled to your view. its just that when it comes to mark there is no debate whatsoever that he crosses way too many lines. You cant even call it overzealous anymore--the guy seriously wants and prays for people to die, just to satisfy his ego. There is no way that anyone who REALLY lives for God with true intentions would so adamantly and frequently take such a positon, even when faced many times with what the bible commands in such a situation. There is simply no excuse for that behavior, and the real mess is that he thinks he is actually following God when he does it....

Though, _I believe_ it is possible that he thinks of of certain things in a similar fashion to you; wanting everyone to show enough respect to listen, even if you don't agree. Though, _I think_ he sees the respect in a different way then most people, and he's usually pretty bad at dealing with the (perceived or real) lack of respect.

certainly he sees respect differently, he thinks that he is entitled to it, but he doesnt think he has to give it out to anyone. Even when he claims to respect you, it is obvious that when you confront him, all he does is either send you an excuse in reply or ignore what you said. That isnt respect, tofu. You rebuke him as a brother, as defined by the bible, and he simply tells you that "they did it to me first"....or any of a dozen others. Where I come from, respect is when someone takes the time to actually listen to what you say and gives you enough credit to look inwards with it to see if it applies. He doesnt do that--he skips right to "I am always right in here" mode...

I have personally found the best way to deal with people like that, who have different communications expectations or needs then you, is to adapt your own communication. For example, how do you think he reacted when people said:

"I can see where you are coming from, but I disagree because of _____"


I'm not saying that this will change his actions, I'm just pointing out a passive observation.

normally I would agree, however, when I first came here, that is the approach I tried. Others have done the same. No one has gotten anywhere because marky has one belief----that you are either 100% with him or you are dead wrong. There is no room for middle ground, not even enough for just a discussion to see where each side is. But anyways, you offer a very welcome insight. Something that I find interesting is that there arent more issues between others in here. We all have very different beliefs, and yet this issue still only comes up with marky. Anyone else can talk about what they do or do not believe and the rest of the forum doesnt get their thong in a wad over it. God sent out the faithful knowing full well that they would encounter all sorts of people with all sorts of beliefs....and not at any one time did He ever command the chosen to treat anyone in the manner that marky thinks is right.

Now, again, I'll also point out I'm not standing up for all his actions, that is not in the scope of this post, and I believe I've already fully and adequately covered that topic in previous posts.

yes, I respect that. And I apologize if it seems like I was trying to come down on you for what he does. that wasnt my intention. I just wanted to explain things from this point fo view. But there is a question that remains--what should be done about the issues in here? How should marky be handled? From your perspective as a believer, do you have any obligations under God about this? Does marky? That is what we need to get to I think, because it is unbelievable to me that anyone would seriously think they are doing Gods work by wishing for so much harm to come to people just because of opinions over an internet forum...what does the bible say should happen now?

the guy seriously wants and prays for people to die, just to satisfy his ego.

to glorify god, which is the same thing.
yzf's ego IS gods ego, yzf traded his in for the bestest ego ever, gods.



There is no way that anyone who REALLY lives for God with true intentions would so adamantly and frequently take such a positon, he thinks he is actually following God when he does it....

he is. god hates sinful humanity, and gets glory by making us to suffer.

brutal death followed by eternal torture is gods PLAN, deny it and you DESERVE it.

the only way to escape the eternal torture business is to BELIEVE that everybody else deserves it.

certainly he sees respect differently, he thinks that he is entitled to it, but he doesnt think he has to give it out to anyone.

naturally, you disagree with god, and only god rates respect, so you start out with negative respect due.
you deserve disrespect because god disrespects your cursed, damned, self which deserves eternal punishment.

a cowardly murderer deserves no respect, and you are judged by god as WORSE than that.

marky has one belief----that you are either 100% with him or you are dead wrong.

spot on, exactly the view of the god of the bible.

There is no room for middle ground, not even enough for just a discussion to see where each side is.

it has to be that way, god TELLS, he doesn't discuss, there IS no other side.


God sent out the faithful knowing full well that they would encounter all sorts of people with all sorts of beliefs....and not at any one time did He ever command the chosen to treat anyone in the manner that marky thinks is right.

kill them all, down to the unborn child in the womb.
that is PRECISELY the instruction given god's chosen.

How should marky be handled? it is unbelievable to me that anyone would seriously think they are doing Gods work by wishing for so much harm to come to people just because of opinions over an internet forum...what does the bible say should happen now?

the tribulation, followed by lots more mass murder by gods chosen, getting back to the good old time religion.

yzf isn't allowed to actually kill anybody until jesus returns, at which point HE is fair game and better maintain a respectful distance from my neck of the woods :D

People that speak in absolutes are fools. Just because you see something one way does not mean that another person, culture, etc. does not see it another way. For instance, we see the color white as a sign of purity while many asian cultures see it as a sign of death and mourning. Be careful of self reference criteria when you think about something as your ignorance is not proof that you're point of view is correct.

Is YZF seriously banned for 10 days?

I never understand banning Mark or anyone else for that matter. Is the TFL run by wusses like the RX7 Club? Sure, I'd ban anyone for harassment or spamming but not for speech. Buck-up Mods. The TFL aint no place for pantywastes.

Sure Mark's caustic at times, so what. We all have friends like this. Has Mark ever shown up at anyone's door and beat their head with a bible? Hell no. Guys like Mark and Jimlab are the measuring sticks for this place. If you can't hack comments from them, your pansy-butt don't belong. (Not that I'm promoting thuggery.) If you leave because of something they've said, you're worthless and weak anyway. Now can't we all get along?

People that speak in absolutes are fools. Just because you see something one way does not mean that another person, culture, etc. does not see it another way. Be careful of self reference criteria when you think about something as your ignorance is not proof that you're point of view is correct.

on the other hand, Pasteur was absolutely 100% certain that a germ caused rabies, even though nothing he did could isolate the mystery germ.

Blargh

I think we're disagreeing on how we agree with each other.


[Absolutely all] People that speak in absolutes are fools.


Hehehehehe

Well, yeah. But it's not the only reason.

No. Mark's behavior is the only reason why I have no respect for him. I won't begrudge anyone their religious beliefs, no matter how silly or inane I find them.

He's standing for a very unpopular view.

He's standing for an unsupportable view.

He's standing for an unsupportable view.

God reveals Himself to those of His choosing. I pray one day He will reveal Himself to you.

God reveals Himself to those of His choosing.

If you say so. I say you have a brain and five senses...you should use them. :)

I pray one day He will reveal Himself to you.

It'd be nice for God to pop down and share a beer. It'd sure eliminate any confusion. I'm not going to hold my breath though, so you should tie your prayers up with something more relevant. Be sure to aim high just in case. :)

BTW, the movie is horrifying. It's a sad testament to our culture that such activity is condoned.

Sure, I'd ban anyone for harassment or spamming but not for speech.

I'd say openly wishing death and suffering upon someone satisfies the harassment requirement.

Now can't we all get along?

No. We can't. :)

If you say so. I say you have a brain and five senses...you should use them. :)

Who says I don't?

From my point of view, you're the one not using them :P

Who says I don't?

Just a hunch. ;)
What's your educational history?

Embarrassing.

From my point of view, you're the one not using them :P

If you say so. You're free to hold whatever opinions you'd like.

If you say so. You're free to hold whatever opinions you'd like.

Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes

Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
Si hoc non legere potes tu asinus es

There we go with the insults again.


Your insinuation seems to be that a higher education would displace any chance of belief in my absurd religion. Am I correct?

There we go with the insults again.

Not an insult, I just forgot the smiley. :)

Your insinuation seems to be that a higher education would displace any chance of belief in my absurd religion. Am I correct?

I'm suggesting that your religious beliefs at best cloud your objectivity, and that they require you to reject reality.

I'm suggesting that your religious beliefs at best cloud your objectivity, and that they require you to reject reality.

What reality am I rejecting?

What reality am I rejecting?

The age of the earth and common descent for starters. If I'm unfairly painting you as a biblical literalist/YEC then speak up.

illegitimi non carborundum ?

The age of the earth and common descent for starters. If I'm unfairly painting you as a biblical literalist/YEC then speak up.

What does YEC stand for?

Youthfully
Excitable
Cowtipper

Yesterdays
Excrable
Confusionist

Yahways
Eternal
Conformist

Young
Earth
Creationist

Yzf
Eating
Crow

Yahoos
Eroding the
Constitution

your
eating
cock

your
eating
cock

yuseless
egocentric
child.

Who says I don't?

From my point of view, you're the one not using them :P

from your point of view what you know is a SECRET deliberatly hidden from us because we do not deserve to be shown the secret.

you don't deserve it either but were chosen at apparant random to recieve the gift of understanding the gibberish the rest of us see when we look at what you hold up as the Truth.

and you are forbidden to actually explain it, although you are required to try.

your fordoomed efforts make you look like even you who ARE granted understanding are reduced to mumbling when trying to read the intentional gibberish.

from your point of view what you know is a SECRET deliberatly hidden from us because we do not deserve to be shown the secret.

you don't deserve it either but were chosen at apparant random to recieve the gift of understanding the gibberish the rest of us see when we look at what you hold up as the Truth.

and you are forbidden to actually explain it, although you are required to try.

your fordoomed efforts make you look like even you who ARE granted understanding are reduced to mumbling when trying to read the intentional gibberish.

I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say. Your posts make less and less sense to me every passing day :P

Man, I could only get past the first 30 minutes of this film. Found it to be pretty annoying. From what I did watch, my guess is that the motive behind the film is to get viewers to recoil in disgust. The activity in the camp is probably just gravy but I switched off just before that point.

It would be interesting to know the beliefs of those who directed/produced this film, whether they are hardcore atheist or moderate Christian.

if anything, the camp got worse as the film went on. I don't see how the people who produced it really could have injected their own views. You could tell the sort of questions they asked the kids by their responses but that was the only interaction I saw.

Personally, I haven't been past 30 minutes either :P

I'll get there eventually.

Maybe.

I guess these kids would be useful when they grow up and go to war in Iran. Hopefully they get their ass shot off and yet take out 10 of theirs. Oh wait! This sounds like the beginning path of suicide bombers!

the samson brigade, with their crisp crew cuts.

I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say. Your posts make less and less sense to me every passing day :P

sorry, that one was the culmination of a month or so of foundation laying.

the thrust being that you think you know the absolute truth while actually not knowing any such thing, with the fact that you cannot explain it as proof.

this movie is disturbing, its blurring the border of religion and country

there seems to be a general conception that god/jesus loves america, and it almost seems as if he gave america to the americans.... wtf? christianity didnt even start in the US, this is pretty much as extreme as islamic terrorist nuts who brainwash their kids to suicide bomb targets

yuseless
egocentric
child.


you
either
cant spell "useless" or you're just retarded... or both


eat a dick

I suggest you get off his nuts and stfu fuse before someone bans you for not following the rules. It seems to me he was just trying to be funny.

the six year old comes out with enough interesting phonetic spellings for seemingly common words that yu seemed a not too unreasonable beginning for a word that SOUNDS like either y or u could start it off, and I needed that y. :D

admittedly, using both was uselessy redundant except I wanted it obvious that it wasn't a typo

so I'll have to go for "retarded", a word that, amusingly, the 12 year old is quite proficient at spelling, through frequent use.

this movie is disturbing, its blurring the border of religion and country

there seems to be a general conception that god/jesus loves america, and it almost seems as if he gave america to the americans.... wtf? christianity didnt even start in the US,

there does seem to be an attitude that America is specially favoured by the Lord, largely because we started out as a NON CATHOLIC christian country.

so defending our special status by keeping the evil atheistic Democrats out of power so our government can keep following the path ordained by our saviour is worth a bit of bloodshed.

:bowdown: :smacktalk:

I suggest you get off his nuts and stfu fuse before someone bans you for not following the rules. It seems to me he was just trying to be funny.


funny how i didnt see u bitch at jhammons for smacktalking in STB

I would have if I'd seen it.

blurring the border of religion and country

a meaningless distinction when ALL authority comes from god, government is gods tool for exercising his authority here among us.
the church helps gods chosen delegated authority wielders figure out what god wants them to do, but it is the king who has the delegated authority to force compliance with the divine plan, hence worshipping a picture of bush as gods appointed front man.

are the Laws of Physics absolute?

nope, they are purely reletive to our observations.



can you fly?

absolutely.

does an ICBM 'fly' ?

howbout a crewperson on the ISS ?

they are fixed Laws that apply anywhere in the universe

exactly like evolution, theoretically.

are the Laws of Physics absolute?

nope, they are purely reletive to our observations, products OF our observations.

remember the first Law of thermodynamics used to say matter cannot be destroyed, until we observed it happen.

http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/articles/seattletimes-nwsource-com-html-nationworld-2003365311_jesuscamp08-html

Good controversy never dies

HOW did i miss this topic!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_dQ5KJ8rgA&NR=1



LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLMAO
O M G priceless!!

look, we know Ted is an immoral apostate, but you're also immoral (and a sad excuse for humanity in general)

so whay are you gloating, jackass? the same hell would await both of you if you died today

you still dont get it?!

the same hell awaits all of us, including you and me....it is only God's grace that will pull one from the fire....and not one of us knows our fate until the day He reveals it.

wups, Mark has a Jesus Cramp

are you saying we can have no assurance of salvation? I disagree

you misunderstand....assurance of salvation? Yes, absolutely. But for who? Can you, me, or anyone else on this planet truthfully know who exactly will find that salvation? No. None of us knows. It is all about faith....faith that you will be on the list. There are assurances, of course, but even you have admitted before that no man will ever know who among us is saved and who is not. The assurances, as I see them, are telling of what will be for those whom God has chosen. And since you cannot truthfully tell who is/is not chosen, then at this stage it is nothing but faith. So again, I say that we are all destined for the same hell, yourself and me included, until God plucks those whom He has chosen to be saved from it. And that day will not be known to those who are chosen until it gets here. Faith, even very strong faith, and absolute knowledge are not the same thing.

By the way, why are you wishing suffering on someone else? Man, come on, lets not go down this road again.

we all deserve hell, but we are not all destined for it


Walk up to your mother and tell her that. Actually call your grandmother or grandfather and tell them they deserve hell. Then instantly feel the burning of shame from the epiphany that, you are in fact absorbed into a fucking cult. Christian Evangelism, is without exception, a CULT. Under what other type of pervasive and unreasonable (see: lunatic) psychology could one willingly want to, and strive for HELL, since he believes it is all him and his fellow human being deserve. ...simultaneously justifying bumbling around allday, being totally fucking hypocritical over and over and over and over and over again... ?? I would imagine it is the same cult that allows pious zealots to self-appoint this "salvation" that we all somehow need, upon THEMSELVES. Fuckin quite saying stupid things already.

glad you asked.


in your (utterly worthless) opinion....who are you, anyway, to make such a statement? you're nothing more than a ghetto reject



The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different meanings of the word "cult" 32.
Formal religious veneration
A system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents;
A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents; (doesnt really apply to one of the most widespread cults)
A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator; (the fundamental interpretation of 'salvation')
Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book). (worshipping exclusively and obsessively ONE prophet Jmmanuel or Jesus)

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:
A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
The object of such devotion;
A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols; (the cross)
A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader; as one of the biggest, most widely accepted cults, only part of this characteristic applies. (under direction of charismatic leaders etc)
The members of such a religion or sect;
Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific. I would take these "sickenesses" to include also psychological and sociopathic illnesses that are installed into a users mind (installation of sin, shame, fears in which the desparate, poor and uneducated are the most vulnerable, then instantly offering "the way" which, given human psychology is a VERY unfair and WRONG thing to do to people's minds esp. the ignorant, desparate, young)

so BY DEFINITION does any of that look familiar to you, motherfucker?

no

the Bible spans 3500 years....beginning with Judaism, it was here long before you, and will be here long after your gone

the scriptures are far cry from any man made system or cult, they are the axis on which human history turns


actually, being the ignorANUS you are, i wouldnt expect you to take any of the Dharmic religions seriously, let alone know anything about them (because it's probably the voice of satan). If you want old, they span back, oh, at LEAST 5500yrs but easily double that... it's just a matter of googling aroudn which i'm not going to to just to convince you. The teachings of these religions make far, FAR more sense than any absolutist, extremist cult's wild interpretations of the Holy Bible.

when most people think of "cult", that is the primary meaning...how you apply that to Biblical Chrisitainity is beyond me, but typical of your far left loony rhetoric

Christian Evangelism IS wide spread, but not as much as you would think. Try leaving the country. Anyway, this whole evangelism thing has been one of the sneakiest, most financially backed (thanks to the generous sheep the poor sheep), pervasive cults that has been forcefully introduced onto people, including desparate people in ususpecting 3rd world nations, slaves, colonies most often by the tip of the sword. Now a days the threatening weapons are all psychological. And what a well-developed black-art it has been, very successful and almost foolproof. Most people who fiercely believe in proliferating "the word" and Christian Evangelism are ones who are also under it's spell and offer their own God given passion to further 'infect' other minds for a cause they TRULY are not at peace with in their minds. They so willingly and forcefully impose a dictrine that has so many loose ends and that criminally robs peoples' free will and self-learning. It sounds outlandish for me to be talking about Christian Evangelism in this way, but by addressing it objectively, as what it is, leaves no room to "backslide" back into the cult mentality. (That is fully what the Bible means by backsliding btw- going from true spirituality back to cult-dogma behavior humans love so much) People's minds and free will are being ABUSED. Its as ethical as a hypnotists putting someone under, suggesting them into a box and then not offering them a way out..(sounds like Scientology). its FUCKING CRIMINAL

btw - i found a pic of sunday service at your church!

http://sheepandgoat.com/images/middlemen.jpg

looks lively,, the convulsions of the lord will soon be upon them, just once theyre annointed with the taser :blah:

Proverbs 8

Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

can I get an amen?


Translation: "Listen to me carefully now" but thats it.
I'm sure the author is referring to "whats coming next".

Ok, I'm gonna break this down, re-redacting this old ass text which has become vague over time, without a sense of fundamentalism at all, using common language.. check this out:



Proverbs 8
Wisdom's Call
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?


Aren't the wisest choices the most obvious ones?


2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;


Further driving home the point of wisdom's obvious nature.


3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:


the voice of reason screams at the top of her lungs:


4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.


Yo, people check me out!! I'm talkin to you, mankind!


5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.


You simpletons, smarten the fuck up. Truth is not as simple as you are.


6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.


Listen to me, son.. I have something valuable for you to hear. What I say is of a righteous intention.


7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.


I'm telling the truth, because I hate lies/to lie.


8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.


same idea as before.


9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.


To the discerning, all my words are right and come across very sensical to those who know.


10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,


Choose the wise words over bling bling and physical pleasures.


11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.


Wisdom is better than having lots of shit.


12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.


(this is the author speaking as "wisdom" in first person)
"I, wisdom, hang out with "Prudence". We both have "knowledge" and "discretion" (SIMPLY drawing the relationship b/w the concepts)


13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.


To be reverent of the unchanging LAWS of NATURE* is tantamount to hating evil, pride, arrogance (ego, more or less)

*misappropriately named God by sects, this is EXACTLY where the bible as we know it falls terribly short. Having been ruined in it's intentions and made a tool for the basis of cults, by personifying the ultimate force. 'law of creation', whatever name you choose as 'a god, the god', which draws conflict between there being only one god and other theologies who acknowledge MANY gods. god, being very highly evolved human spirits. I am still not convinced either way whether this happened intentionally or just coincidental circumstance.

14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.


Finally, the stuff mark needs to pay attn to:
Council and SOUND JUDGEMENT, you see that? Being reasonable and logical...
That means not being an extremist, right wing evangelical fundamentalist.


15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;


Wisdom tootin his horn still


16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]


I, wisdom , am teh best.


17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.

19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.

20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,

21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

And basically, the passage repeats the same thing over and over, in different analogies ... just like most of the bible, and the quran and the torah. redundant messages in different stories. The problem with fundamentalists is they read each word literally, as it has been translated, the King's english and all!!! People are so stuck on the face value of shit (mammon) , brainlessly reciting passages allthewhile groupminded which is the very manifestation of a cult. Fully abandoning the ORIGINAL INTENT of the bible's teachings, which is wisdom and understanding, u know, using your own logic and reason to learn universal laws... but under this pretence these poor people babble, convulse, cry, or sit still and punish while doctrine is jackhammered into their heads and they can ask no questions. Then when they meet resistance externally, they can do nothing but fight in vain, struggling inside to even make sense of it for themselves, let alone others. But they cannot take information that threatens their basica beliefs, not even to consider it, because there is already a mental block in place (the voice of satan etc etc) How do things ever GET so bad? Theyre just fucking fooling themselves into thinking they know something serious because of words like perish, sin, thine, hath, command, favor, death, appointed and the charismatic leaders that scream those words in various tones of voice that incite fear and worry about the most valuable thing each person has on this earth, which is life. The bible's been calling out it's own cultist followers (pharisees, cheif priests, olden day YZFR1's) as fundamental simpletons since back then, how much do you think has changed in humanity's oldest hobby?

then how do you explain the word "guarantee" in the passages above (previous post)?

Simple--I already have explained it. It is a guarantee that the ones who have been chosen will be saved. It is not a guarantee that you, I, or anyone else here will know who is on that list ahead of time. God will reveal what God will reveal, and it is not for us to determine exactly what that will be. The scriptures do not say that in each and every case, the chosen will be informed of their status before leaving this life.

btw - i found a pic of sunday service at your church!

hey, grand wizard, thanks for sharing pics from your senior prom. Y'all must have had a bleatin good time....and hey, look on the bright side--if your date didnt give you teh sexxors, you can still get a meal and a leather jacket out of the deal!! Gives new meaning to being horny, doesnt it??:bigthumb:

btw - i found a pic of sunday service at your church!

http://sheepandgoat.com/images/middlemen.jpg

looks lively,, the convulsions of the lord will soon be upon them, just once theyre annointed with the taser :blah:
:bigthumb:

spiritual understanding and wisdom is not self generated, it's not something you "figure out"

To understand is to perceive or comprehend mentally. If "understanding" something isn't self-generated, then someone else put the thought there without your mind having reasons (in the true sense) to support the thought. Ergo, to understand without "self-generating" the conclusion is someone else controlling your mind and implanting a thought without basis in your experience or perception of the world.

Sounds great... :rolleyes:


your false, humanistic arguments sound eerily like the words of Lucifer himself (no surprise there)

Which is fitting, since Lucifer is a "humanistic" creation that appears in ONLY one verse of ONLY the King James bible... How they got "lucifer" from Helel, only the one translator knows. maybe the devil made him do it? Since the name Lucifer was already attributed to the morning star and used by certain pagan sects...

no, that's not how it works; this is a highly complex issue, discussed at length in the epistles, and I prefer not to discuss with a naturalist/pagan, it's a waste of time


*sigh* you always sell yourself short, man.

no sense in discussing light with darkness, which is why I prefer to stick to the basics here (such as the origins topic)

if you can't even get to first base of Who God is as Creator, you certainly aren't going to have a right viewpoint of the Gospel, it's going to be a watered down, shallow, superficial "easy believism" "feel good" trip that is peddled by so many shamans in 2007

You're just afraid that you cannot support your position with someone of reason. It's just as simple as that.

no, that's not how it works

That's exactly how it works; you already agree that it's a thought implanted, not a thought reasoned. you "prefer" not to discuss it because apparently you can't counter the logic.

this is a straw man

Bunk. You set up the argument, not me; and it's irrefutable that the name "lucifer" predates the KJV, the only bible in which he appears and only in Isaiah.

Satan has been worshipped by pagans for ages

one called Lucifer, yes. But like the trinity used to make monotheism more palatable to polytheists, and "Christ's birthday"coinciding with traditional winter solstice celebrations, it was corrupted from an older religion and perverted into yet another name for the Christian invention, Satan - at least by English christians. Not by those who wrote the book originally.

Go on, amuse us with more of your almost Catholic-like dismissal of facts that refute your dogma.

Creation is reason...

No, Creation is, by definition, faith. And faith is, as we've well established, the belief in something without the need for evidence to support it.

no sense in discussing light with darkness

I dont understand your reasoning here. I was under the impression that the ones in darkness were the ones that needed this kind of discussion the most. Lets face it--very few people turn to God the first time they hear of the Word, so why be discouraged at the nonbelievers here? You never know when you will have planted a seed that the person will remember at a later time and understand, at least enough to look deeper.

Jesus did not come to preach to the faithful, He came as an example to a world that was in darkness. Think about that.

Creation is reason

If creation were reason, then more people would understand it better. This is why it takes faith. Creation is not reason, it is simply not reason to the average human mind to comprehendc that everything was created in six days, or that immediately before those six days there was nothing. Or that A man was deprived of one rib to create woman. These things are supernatural, and are not reason. Faith is required. Without faith, proof would be needed for the human mind to grasp such a concept. Even if it wasnt really factual proof, something would be needed if not for faith. For example, you have brought up many times the problems with carbon dating--evolutionists hold onto that concept as a tangible piece of proof, even if it is incorrect....because to the human mind, tangible is better than intangible.

creation is. it just fucking is. now stfu!

before a man can seek God, God must first have sought the man. Before a sinful man can think a right thought of God, there must have been a work of enlightenment done within him; imperfect it may be, but a true work nonetheless, and the secret cause of all desiring and seeking and praying which may follow. [b]We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. `No man can come to me,' said our Lord, `except the Father which hath sent me draw him'



and that's why the Tribulation will arrive, without warning, to test those who dwell upon the earth....the fence riding, coast-through-life apathetic spiritual crowd will no longer be able to function, and the reality of the supernatural will be manifested for everyone to see

it purely seems to me that there is a major discontinuity between those two chunks of theology.

as in, who is being "tested" ? there seems to be three groups here
1 the Chosen Few, who go to heaven no matter what
2 some other Chosen Few who somehow manage to screw it up and need the Tribulation to streighten them up
3 everybody else on the planet, who will be thrown into hell no matter what.


it seems pretty obvious that the jews are #2 and the Tribulation is a chance for good jews to convert to christianity and get saved, DESPITE THEIR NOT BEING PART of #1, the Chosen Few.

Why would someone invent Jesus Camp? To teach the few words that the Bible wrote about Jesus? Or was the need to ram into their heads that conflicts really make since.

Bible was written by devout believers. These people had practically created the basis for the Church. We must recognize their bias towards Christ. They sincerely believed, that all that happens was the work of Christ. They undoubtedly wanted a good ending and so they made up or resurrected Christ from the dead. Therefore, Christ died like a man and nothing more.

right, of course that ignores all the jews who lived and died between the piercing and the outpouring, to hell with them.

also, it appears that this chosen generation of jews might actually be given a choice, become christian or die screaming like everybody else on the planet.

yay god. :rolleyes:

:bowdown: :screwyou:

note what occurs at the end of the Tribulation (Zechariah 12):

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

note that instead of outpouring the "spirit of grace and supplication" on the jews BEFORE the piercing so that they would turn from their ungodly ways and NOT give god his bloody human sacrifice, god chose to send uncounted generations of the children of abraham to hell, the ONLY way to the father being the christ that jews deny as an essential feature of their faith in the god who sends them to hell.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :screwyou:

oh golly, not sending one out of every ten thousand to hell SO TOTALLY proves me wrong.

the other 9,999 who DO get sent to hell don't count.


just like sparing a rowboat full of A family makes up for murdering EVERYONE else on the planet.

NARROW gate, god says it for me.

consider also the 144,000 out of 5,640,506 jews in israel is not quite 40 to 1

the point is not how many pass but that the majority are fordoomed to hell.

so is Darwinism

Not an argument. my point stands. Attacking what you call "darwinism" doesn't spackle over the gaps in your logic nor address the questions asked.

it's a counterpoint, you assert creationism requires faith (which it does, although based on logic and evidence), and I assert microbes-to-man naturalism requires faith (which it does)

evidence for the naturalist scenario of nobody x nothing is completely absent, adaptation/speciation is not evidence of Darwinian fantasies, it is rather evidence of limited adaptation as designed/programmed by the Creator

This is altogether incorrect. For example, look in the bible. They did not have evidence--they had things which had no explanation that was previously known to them. When the masses saw someone healed, they did not immediatley know beyond doubt that it was God--in fact, didnt others, who were not followers, drive out demons as well? Matthew 7--

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This scripture proves that driving out demons is not solely the work of God alone, so if the people saw someone driving out a demon, that was not "Evidence". It was an event which had no definite answer, and the person was left to choose if they believed it was God or not.

Long before all the "scientific" findings, regardless of which belief they support, there was faith. Faith is by its very definition 'belief in the absence of evidence or proof'. In the end, I believe as you do when it comes to creation vs evolution, but you need to consider that evidence is held in the eye of the individual. It is not always cut and dried, black or white.

He also said this

Matthew 7

Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Mark 4 (quoting Isaiah 6)

When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. e told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

" 'that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven'"

While He did say that, it does not in any way change the point I made. Jesus was sent into a world in darkness. And no matter what he "also" said, the point remains that the world was indeed in darkness.


creation/design is supremely logical, even dr. drew admitted that, and most people, if not brainwashed 24/7 by the hopelessly atheistic evolutionary biased media, would consider the inner workings of an atom and the galaxies in their vast array and reach the same conclusion...the fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God' they have no excuse

Logical is not even the issue--it takes more than logic to even consider the concept of creationism. And again, the fact remains that so few people, whether in biblical times or now, actually understand. Like I said, if creation was so inherently logical, then more people would believe without looking for proof. Well, thats my opinion anyways. Remember, parables were used as a method to conceal the true meaning from all but those who were supposed to get the message. Logic? No. Selection, yes.


*sigh*

no, I never focused on C14 here, it was always radiometric dating of rocks (such as K-Ar) which is proven to be erratic and essentially worthless

Look, Mark, we can debate whether or not you have focused on C14 all day long, but it would be awfully easy to find examples of you specifically mentioning C14 in here. Not only that, but I only said you mentioned that there is a problem with carbon dating---you took it upon yourself to assume what exactly the problem was that I was thinking of. Tell you what--instead of snipping and clipping my post, lets revisit what I said in its entirety about carbon dating:

For example, you have brought up many times the problems with carbon dating--evolutionists hold onto that concept as a tangible piece of proof, even if it is incorrect....because to the human mind, tangible is better than intangible.

In other words, I was AGREEING with the many times you have talked about the incorrect concepts regarding dating ancient remains. And even then, here you go, telling me how right you are and how wrong I am--even though we are talking about the same thing! And for the record, you have talked about the problems with carbon dating. You even posted a link before, to debunk myths about it. And in that link, it was clearly stated that carbon dating produces no actual concrete age of an item, because the relationship between actual years and "radiocarbon years" is not fully understood. But its cool, if you need to argue with me for agreeing with your point of view, go ahead.:bigthumb:

how did we go from the obvious evidence of design/creation to the supernatural acts of Christ? completely different issue...I didn't make that jump, you did

um, dude, it is not a jump--they are inextricably connected. we were talking about faith, and in christianity, you either take it all or you take nothing. You yourself have preached about how the entire bible is the Word, havent you? All the conversations and references to the "buffet method of religion", and suddenly you dont remember?

Lest you forget, in biblical times, these people were not scientists. What you today consider "obvious evidence" had no concrete explanation then--only FAITH.

but not in regard to "millions of years" delusions; C14 cannot be used in that context

sigh....

do I have to keep repeating this? why are you snipping my post yet again, just to argue a point with me THAT I DONT EVEN DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT??

Again, for the third time, take a look at the WHOLE post I made.

Look, Mark, we can debate whether or not you have focused on C14 all day long, but it would be awfully easy to find examples of you specifically mentioning C14 in here. Not only that, but I only said you mentioned that there is a problem with carbon dating---you took it upon yourself to assume what exactly the problem was that I was thinking of. Tell you what--instead of snipping and clipping my post, lets revisit what I said in its entirety about carbon dating:


Quote:
For example, you have brought up many times the problems with carbon dating--evolutionists hold onto that concept as a tangible piece of proof, even if it is incorrect....because to the human mind, tangible is better than intangible.


In other words, I was AGREEING with the many times you have talked about the incorrect concepts regarding dating ancient remains. And even then, here you go, telling me how right you are and how wrong I am--even though we are talking about the same thing! And for the record, you have talked about the problems with carbon dating. You even posted a link before, to debunk myths about it. And in that link, it was clearly stated that carbon dating produces no actual concrete age of an item, because the relationship between actual years and "radiocarbon years" is not fully understood. But its cool, if you need to argue with me for agreeing with your point of view, go ahead.

look, seriously, you seem like an intelligent guy, so why are you pulling this crap now? It is so plain in that post that I completely agreed with you about the common incorrect perceptions regarding carbon dating....so then, as a result of me agreeing with you, you once more argue the point? Man, did you go out drinking last night? Or did you just get done sniffing some glue now? READ THE POST, Mark, before you try to argue against what you THINK it says. That way, you wont make yourself look this foolish again.

many people confuse radiocarbon of organic aritifacts (limited to thousands of years, because of C14 half life) with radiometric methods used to date rocks at vast imaginary time scales, they are not the same, and there is tremendous ignorance on this issue....this isn't a slam at you personally, it's more a general comment

if only you had taken the time to read what I wrote before getting your defenses up, you would have seen that you and I are on the same page on this. be honest and stop cherry-picking already

it's a counterpoint, you assert creationism requires faith (which it does, although based on logic and evidence), and I assert microbes-to-man naturalism requires faith (which it does)

evidence for the naturalist scenario of nobody x nothing is completely absent, adaptation/speciation is not evidence of Darwinian fantasies, it is rather evidence of limited adaptation as designed/programmed by the Creator

...and the reason you keep mentioning Darwinism is because you like to pretend that science hasn't advanced its understanding of evolution or biology since.

Same old, same old. you get disproven, then reintroduce the same argument months later...

no, they aren't

there is God's general revelation in Creation and special revelation in Christ...they are NOT the same: everyone witnesses Creation, day in and day out (and night in and night out)...only a few personally witnessed what Christ did

Specific chapters, yes, but a part of the same book, no? Is not Genesis directly linked to Matthew? Is it not altogether the same plan from the same God? The events during Jesus' time on Earth could not have happened if there was no earth created. And again, you missed the entire point about those miracles---I showed you how, in scripture, reference is made to other people performing miracles and driving out demons, but NOT doing God's work in the process. So, while you now want to get into the issue of how many witnessed Jesus healing someone, the fact remains that the act itself was not proof of God, since the bible talks about others doing the same things not for God.

I already said faith is involved in Christainity, that wasn't the point, read my original post before you complain about me not reading your long winded posts

Funny, once again, I already addressed this. And in order to do so, I did read your post. Clearly, I addressed your point. you were talking about how faith was not the only part of it. I showed you how faith is precisely that. You claimed that there is proof, I showed you how that "proof" requires faith to interpret it one way or the other. Dont sit there and tell me I am not reading your posts just because you didnt get the answer you wanted. Try being honest, Mark.

Oh, and I see you still did not address your errors in snipping my posts just to have a reason to argue. What about it? Nothing to say? you had plenty to say when you were snipping and clipping to serve your own purpose, even though I agreed with your assessment to begin with....I think you need to be big enough to admit such a thing.

all spiritual truth is linked, correct, but not all revelation of God is the same

I didnt call them the same, pal, I said they are linked. And they are. God uses various methods at different times to get one's attention. Plain and simple.

By the way--

Oh, and I see you still did not address your errors in snipping my posts just to have a reason to argue. What about it? Nothing to say? you had plenty to say when you were snipping and clipping to serve your own purpose, even though I agreed with your assessment to begin with....I think you need to be big enough to admit such a thing.

which is a side issue to my post below, before you crashed the party with (yet another trademark) tangential discussion....the discussion was evidence of CREATION

Which I didnt sidetrack, Mark. Try using a little honesty. I addressed that point quite plainly, it is not my fault that you failed to comprehend it. Now, if you cannot just discuss things like an adult, perhaps you need to confine yourself to the kiddy pool. There is no reason whatsoever for the way you address people in here, I dont care what anyone did or didnt say to you. Certainly I was one of the worst in this place, and if I was able to get rid of that garbage, you have no excuse.

By the way, the original topic of this thread was NOT "evidence of creation". So, do tell, what in the world is it that makes you think you can discuss anything you choose off the main topic, but jump on anyone else if they say something you dont like? You really do need to get over yourself.

And while were at it, take note--thats three times now you have been asked to address your persistent attitude that was in error. it is also three times that you have ignored it. Ignoring your mistakes doesnt take them away.

yes, you DID

Look, dude, this is an internet discussion forum. I dont give a damn one way or the other that you have a problem with people coming in here to discuss things. Thats what this place is. And contrary to your ridiculous attitude, no one needs your permission to post here. I am sorry that this disturbs you, but thats the fact, jack, so once again, get the hell over yourself. You dont make the rules in here, you are no more important or entitled to anything here than anyone else. So get off it. What I posted was related in a specific way, and I dont give a damn if you have a bug up your back side about that.

no, YOU try it

I am. I havent been anything but honest. You, on the other hand, three times over, are trying to argue with me on a point that I have repeatedly said I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT...and even then, you still dont have the balls or the decency to admit a mistake and simply apopogize. That is where you fail. Be a man already. And stop trying to pass off fault for your screwup onto someone else, as usual.

no, you CHANGED the subject to the miracles of Christ and wandered off on a sidetrack discussion about faith in such...COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC

Again, do you know how to read? Seriously?

--the faith issue was NOT mine...it was being discussed between you and manntis already. So stop bullshitting. Its getting you nowhere.
--the issue about miracles was specifically to show that what you called "evidence" cannot be interpreted as such when it happens because you have the luxury of 2000 years of hindsight that those people did not have.

whatever, man....

Tell you what--why dont you try being man enough to admit when you are shown to be wrong clear as day and stop looking to invent a mistake for someone else?

correct, but that was the topic manntis and I were discussing before you stuck your head back in

do you walk into the middle of someone's conversation and rattle off on a side topic at random (in real life)?

Irony, where art thou??

Look, this is ridiculous. You screw up threads all the time by going into a non-religious thread and bringing up God....I brought up a related religion point in a religion thread. Get the hell over yourself, and fast.

usual stuff

instead of just apologizng for taking a conversation that did not involve you off-topic, you point fingers at me

*sigh*....you're outside

that did not involve me??? THIS PLACE INVOLVES ANYONE WHO CHOOSES TO BE HERE. Someone needs to slap you back into reality, pal, you do not have any right or business thinking you get to determine who can be in here and who cannot. This isnt your forum. Get over yourself.

In either case, I was already involved in this thread and I certainly dont need your permission to post in it anytime I choose.

By the way, when do you apologize for all the threads you derail? Didnt think so.....

here marky comes..

I thought you might like that....

Half

has anyone actually seen this movie? I haven't


Thats because its rated 'R', and too much for 'wittle marky' to handle.