I’ve often pondered the logic behind praying for others.

Consider person A: here is a man, who by the power of his own free will, chooses not to recognize God. Left to his own devices, this is the state of mind that person A will carry to his grave. Now consider person B. He is a man who willfully accepts God (we’ll call him a Christian for simplicity’s sake) who happens to be acquainted with person A. Every night person B prays to God that person A may be saved by His grace.

If God chooses to answer person B’s prayers He will have stripped person A of his free will by effectively altering his perception. If He ignores his prayers, then they are in vain.

Note* I realize that this topic has been addressed previously but I wish to take a different approach this time around.

I’ve often pondered the logic behind praying for others.

Consider person A: here is a man, who by the power of his own free will, chooses not to recognize God. Left to his own devices, this is the state of mind that person A will carry to his grave. Now consider person B. He is a man who willfully accepts God (we’ll call him a Christian for simplicity’s sake) who happens to be acquainted with person A. Every night person B prays to God that person A may be saved by His grace.

If God chooses to answer person B’s prayers He will have stripped person A of his free will by effectively altering his perception. If He ignores his prayers, then they are in vain.

Note* I realize that this topic has been addressed previously but I wish to take a different approach this time around.

Flawed. If person A is influenced by God because of person B, person A will always be 100% in finding out that he was wrong. That doesn't apply just to religion, that applies to any situation... any "NEW" evidence will certainly influence your decision and you'll always be thankful that you did find the truth, regardless of whether you like the reality of it or not. No one wants to be misinformed.

I’ve often pondered the logic behind praying for...

here is a prayer you can try:
Dear Lord,
Grant me the wisdom to see why You made different folks, who simply think at different levels, which resulted in some who cant even understand how it benefits to believe in You, no matter how much we have tried to reason with them. Can you please either...make them smarter?....or send someone down here who knows how to teach them?... or i can only hope Your Great Plan includes these different facets in life and everything is going to be all right because You judge cheifly by the man's heart...not actions.

how do you know who is saved and who isn't? the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Perhaps I am taking for granted that the willful denial of Christ leads to Hell?

in some strange and wonderful way, God uses prayer to work out His will on earth, at least the prayer of the obedient and true...of course many prayers are simply speakng words into the air

Granted, but it then appears that there are some inconsistencies here. Person A denies God because he does not believe that He exists. So God, in His all knowing-self, sees what it would take to convince this man of His existence. Now, by doing such He eliminates person A’s freedom to accept or deny God by purging all doubt from his mind.

If this is done out of God’s grace, why then is it not done more frequently?

God loves diligent and heart-felt prayer, that is very obvious in the scripture...it's an act of worship that honors God

I tend to agree with this as diligent prayer would strengthen one’s relationship with God. It demonstrates the willful out reach to God through the toils of doubt and confusion. Yet when all manner of doubt is removed, how should God find the act of prayer pleasing?

Flawed. If person A is influenced by God because of person B, person A will always be 100% in finding out that he was wrong. That doesn't apply just to religion, that applies to any situation... any "NEW" evidence will certainly influence your decision and you'll always be thankful that you did find the truth, regardless of whether you like the reality of it or not. No one wants to be misinformed.

The difference is that earthly information always carries the possibility of doubt, thus one has the choice to either accept or deny it. Supposing that Godly evidence removes doubt, then there is no chance for denial, thus, one can only accept it.

If God chooses to answer person B’s prayers He will have stripped person A of his free will by effectively altering his perception. If He ignores his prayers, then they are in vain.

the problem is that person A has a head filled with LIES that were put there by order of god by gods servant satan because god WANTS that person to believe the lies.

god hides the truth so he can look big when he shows it to his chosen few.



don't forget, per jesus on mash, "god always answers prayers, sometimes the answer is no."

The difference is that earthly information always carries the possibility of doubt, thus one has the choice to either accept or deny it. Supposing that Godly evidence removes doubt, then there is no chance for denial, thus, one can only accept it.

....equals, you are still in doubt about YOUR christianallity no matter how you feel.

P.S. Well written, btw.

....equals, you are still in doubt about YOUR christianallity no matter how you feel.


Spot on.

the problem with people like honegod is they have no idea what an incredible reality that is, they do NOT understand the holiness of God and His intolerance for sin, that the righteous and perfect Creator, who is eternal and spoke the universe into existence, should delight in us and care about us

election ultimately has nothing to do with human free will or effort

"I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one"

though we deserve absolutely nothing except hell, we have a God that has chosen us to be rescued from a perishing world and hell itself,

God chooses to work with ...small numbers, the minority,

so 'the moral majority' was an obvious mistake, it should have been 'the saved minority' to set them off from 'the doomed majority'.

the majority of humanity is doomed to eternal hell ANYWAY and god still siccs his attack devil, satan, on us to stir up suffering just for fun.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

The difference is that earthly information always carries the possibility of doubt, thus one has the choice to either accept or deny it. Supposing that Godly evidence removes doubt, then there is no chance for denial, thus, one can only accept it.

I have no problem accepting jesus christ as my personal savour if I am allowed to have doubts. But I have doubts that you are right. I have doubts that the bible is right. I have doubts that there is a god.

I dont see why it is useful for me to accept the notion that everything, that is EVERYTHING, should be consider doubtful.

I don't see why it is useful for me to accept that what I really see, touch, taste, smell, etc, etc, is doubtfully really there.

To say earthy information always carries the possibility of doubt, has no useful value. Because, to me, it isn't logical. And i haven't seen the information which would be doubted too i suppose.

I think you should be in the line of saying 'we' as human, can interpret things incorrectly thus the information coming from either you or I can be considered doubtful. That would be logical. and would explain why yzf and you on the same team yet not on the same page.

sorry, it deserves this:

:bsmeter:

and without God, the latter is impossible

exactly

so therefore, there isnt a god.

I have no problem accepting jesus christ as my personal savour if I am allowed to have doubts. But I have doubts that you are right. I have doubts that the bible is right. I have doubts that there is a god.

There is nothing wrong with having doubts. As I have said, everyone has their doubts.

I dont see why it is useful for me to accept the notion that everything, that is EVERYTHING, should be consider doubtful.

Because that is reality. If you prefer to live in your self assured fantasy land then by all means go ahead. Just don’t assume that your ignorance changes anything.

I don't see why it is useful for me to accept that what I really see, touch, taste, smell, etc, etc, is doubtfully really there.

The point behind this is not to deny everything because of doubt but rather to accept that what you believe is based on your faith in certain principles.

You had stated earlier that logic helped bring you to atheism when in fact this is not the case. It was faith in your senses that brought you to this conclusion just as yzf’s faith in God helps bring him to his own conclusions.


To say earthy information always carries the possibility of doubt, has no useful value. Because, to me, it isn't logical. And i haven't seen the information which would be doubted too i suppose.

Irrelevant.

I think you should be in the line of saying 'we' as human, can interpret things incorrectly thus the information coming from either you or I can be considered doubtful. That would be logical. and would explain why yzf and you on the same team yet not on the same page.


Just out of curiousity, what team do you think that is?

team god believing

will reply tomorrow. tired from yzf being on my ass all day.

ark man has never claimed to be a Christian as far as I know, more of a curious skeptic

Baptized Roman Catholic actually. It’s probably not fair to consider myself Catholic these days (though I still attend church regularly). Currently I suppose I’m just trying to figure things out.

may God rescue you from that system of lies and half truths


I am doing my best.

oh, wait, you didn't say honegod, oops, sorry :peace:

go back to reading darwin :peace:

ko. :D

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species/chapter-04.html

chapter 4

Can it, then, be thought improbable, seeing that variations useful to man have undoubtedly occurred, that other variations useful in some way to each being in the great and complex battle of life, should sometimes occur in the course of thousands of generations? If such do occur, can we doubt (remembering that many more individuals are born than can possibly survive) that individuals having any advantage, however slight, over others, would have the best chance of surviving and of procreating their kind? On the other hand, we may feel sure that any variation in the least degree injurious would be rigidly destroyed. This preservation of favourable variations and the rejection of injurious variations, I call Natural Selection.

start your own thread on Darwinism, then

this is a religion forum, science and darwin is offtopic.

the HATE of darwin is ontopic, being a religious disease.


some are blinded

blinded by religion.

darwinism absolutely is a religion, it is NOT substantiated by science, in terms of origins

there is no such thing as "darwinism" it is a fantasy that y'all created to go right beside the other gods and devils that you created.

what you call "darwinism" is science, seeking truth by rejecting lies.

in particular those lies you hold true through faith in HIDDEN truth

such as the spontanious simultanious creation of all life 6000 years ago.


how is "darwinism" a religion ?

lol

so now you are claiming everything darwin taught is "science"?



speciation is science, but it has nothing to do with origins

the periodic table of the elements {mendeleeve ? } worked so well at describing the relationships of the known elements that where there were blank spots in the chart where no such element existed it was predicted that elements would be found that perfectly fit those spots.

and they were.

darwin made a chart and the blank spots are being filled in.

you point at a remaining blank spot in darwins chart and call him a demon from hell.

huge diff between "god believing" and "Christian" (which is what you originally stated)

LOL Not at all. Same Same.

OK back to you, bro. :)

Because that is reality. If you prefer to live in your self assured fantasy land then by all means go ahead. Just don’t assume that your ignorance changes anything.

I will always live in ignorance. Ask my wife for more info.

The point behind this is not to deny everything because of doubt but rather to accept that what you believe is based on your faith in certain principles.

wow bro. hard to reply to this. its like that whole paragraph negates itself.

You had stated earlier that logic helped bring you to atheism when in fact this is not the case. It was faith in your senses that brought you to this conclusion just as yzf’s faith in God helps bring him to his own conclusions.

Again. ok i admit im ignorant on a lot of things. even bible stuff. im no expert. that is why I ask a lot of questions. No one can answer em, im telling you, it seems.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a30.htm

After recognizing the errors of the Catholic faith, why did he feel compelled to abandon to leave. Granted I too disagree with infant baptism and the sacrament of reconciliation (among other things) but why should one leave Catholicism entirely?

wow bro. hard to reply to this. its like that whole paragraph negates itself.


Nope, doesn't contradict itself at all. Replace all that you see as a logical conclusion with acceptance by faith and you've got it.

Demons, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, agnostics.....many of them believe in God, or a god

will they be in the City of God, with Christ? nope

Of course they will. Some were promised with 10 Virgins. You will not have genitials. Muslims will, when you all meet in heaven.

Of course they will. Some were promised with 10 Virgins. You will not have genitials. Muslims will, when you all meet in heaven.

10? I thought it was like 70 something. Speaking of which, how long do you think it would take before you get tired of virgins?

.if you pray to anyone other than Christ, you commit idolatry, every time...

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! My work is done here.

First Commandment.

10? I thought it was like 70 something. Speaking of which, how long do you think it would take before you get tired of virgins?

When they form a Union??

I disagree. Undoubtedly, the Catholic Church, by your standards, has some things right. Why not take from it what one finds to be true and leave the rest?

A dead church is irrelevant, one is important is one’s relationship with God.

When they form a Union??

I don't know.... You'd have to be awfully imaginative to make use of 72 women.

avoid carnality here so you can indulge in it in heaven...yeah! that's it!
:rolleyes:

Good point.

I don't know.... You'd have to be awfully imaginative to make use of 72 women.
I'd put them all to work. My house would be spit shine and I would be jolly fat by all the good cooking.

DNA has the created ability to adapt within limits to changing environs...it's part of the genius of the Programmer


DNA is a molecule, the molecule can be altered into ANY possible configuration.

you are saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a molecule to change into a possible configuration.

despite the proven existance of the mechanism of change.

you say that a major change in the molecular structure that produces a minor change in the resultant critter is possible, but a minor change in the molecular structure that produces a major change in the critter is impossible.

despite the existance of critters with major changes.





darwin extrapolated the facts into an origins hypothesis,

so far I am reading him using several facts to support each extrapolation.

he is building a one story house on a solid foundation of observed fact, not the teetery tower of extrapolation, based on extrapolation based on extrapolation, based on extrapolation, that you claim.

and offer as a substitute.


(which violate the Laws of Thermodynamics)

a wood fire violates the Laws of Thermodynamics by releasing more energy than the match that lit it put in.
according to your {faulty} understanding of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

how do you know who is saved and who isn't?

Well, you always seemed to think you had that ability, didnt you?? So, why would you be able to know if no one else could?

hmmmm......

denial over a period of a lifetime, yes, but you can't ever totally give up on people

This is coming from you?? The same guy that prays for those whom he doesnt like on an internet forum to be killed? The same guy who readily says he will pray that same thing again and again? I smell BS.....

Funny thing too--in these threads, you actually bring up a lot of good information. The problem lies in the fact that your own words and actions contradict the comments you post to teach others. How can you sit there and say "you cant ever give up on someone..." when you yourself have gone beyond that? If it is good enough for you to tell others to llive that way, why isnt it good enough for you to be honest about yourself anf your actions? you even used a verse to try to justify such actions....but now, you flip-flop so easily??

That makes no sense whatsoever.

well, I knew you couldn't post more than a couple of times before getting back off the topic and judging me

nothing ever changes :rolleyes:

This is not about judging--I asked you a serious question. Why not just answer it?

Also, you are right--nothing changes....you get banned for a week, there are new forum rules in place, and even then you still insult everyone who disagrees with you. give it a rest already--I asked you a legitimate question without insult.....you, however, still cannot help yourself but to insult others because they dont believe exactly as you do.

This time, Mark, you cannot even blame it on Jonnie--I was nowhere near the posts you were making, calling people idiots and everything else. The fault is strictly yours....so again, no answer to that question? It IS relevant to the topic, considering the statements you make....

EDIT--is it or is it not getting off topic when you insult people at will because of an internet forum, Mark? hmmm....

I'm tired of you following me around like a sick puppy jon, stay on the topic at hand or hit the road...I don't need your stupid vindictive questions, as if you are in ANY position to assess me

Let's cut the crap here. If I am in no position to assess you, then you are likewise in no position to assess anyone yourself. Would you at least be man enough to say that is fair?

I do not assess people, except when they try to assess me

That does not answer the question I asked you. If it is wrong for someone to assess you, is it not equally wrong for you to respond the same way?

ok, that was an incorrect statement...the information conveyed by DNA can be reconfigured, but new information from some magical source is never added

which is why evolution is impossible....all mutations involve a progressive loss of the original storehouse of information

it's a molecule, a series of atoms clumped together the way atoms naturally clump together.

there is no "information".

it is a chemical feedback loop regulated by natural selection.

to start a chemical reaction all you need is atoms and an energy source.

what you are calling 'information' is something WE endow the molecular configuration with to use in figuring out the shape of chemical interaction {critter} that will result.

not something inherent to the configuration of atoms.

a mutation is a change in the molecular configuration, that is all.

the configuration then interacts, if the reaction continues it was a "good" mutation if not it was "bad".
no information, so no change in information.

of course there is, otherwise the information needed to reproduce woud never be conveyed

it is a molecular configuration that reproduces itself chemically, not a message.

when molecules bonk into each other chemical stuff happens and atoms move around changing the molecules involved, in some cases the molecules involved make copies of themselves out of surrounding atoms.

because of their shape.

it so happens that a whole huge family of shapes for a carbon based molecule is shaped so that it reproduces itself.

no magic needed.
just atoms doing what atoms do.



DNA is by far the most compact information storage system in the universe.
you don't have a clue what you're talking about

once WE figure out how to use DNA to make what we want we can use DNA as an information storage system, but the only information that will be in DNA will be what we put there.

what exactly does this information that you have invented in DNA actually DO ??

and how does it respond to prayer ?

I want a plant that will eat water, sunlight, and CO2, and produce a steady stream of a hydrocarbon compound that my 13b will find tastier than gas.

information theory escapes you

and it's the primary reason evolution has absolutely nothing to do with origins


oh, Theory

I wasn't talking about a Theory I was just stating Facts.

a wholesome place to start, do you have any observed Facts that do not require any Theory to break into a "molecules to man" chain of events ?

I recognise the possibility of difficulty, since man IS made of molecules, and molecules existed before man.


your arguement seems to be that it is too HARD for molecules to assume the shape that they presently have no difficulty assuming.

May I? Thank you...

in accordance with entropy, NOTHING in the universe is self organizing (an ice lattice does melt btw) breaking this down further, electrons within atoms and atoms within molecules did not magically organize themselves unless there was some Design causing them to do so (from an origins perspective, not current conditions)...and the elements exist in amazing synergy

Um, did you guys fail cimisstree or something? There isn't anything spooky about chemistry. It is what it is. Everything falls into place naturally. Gosh! Go ahead and thing it was intelligent design. Only way to get you to think god created the universe.


youi see the world as it is, and you foolishly believe it just "happened", because the natural order of things is so astounding

Foolish to reconize reality? That is something you would say so nothing new here.

it's the chicken and the egg, you are blinded by your Darwinian world view that you have been indoctrinated with..."nobody x nothing = the universe!"

Chicken egg e=mc2? did you make this up? probably because IT"S VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

pure insanity

Hey Ark2. Found someone that thinks like you.

Plato reject the sense-of seeing, hearing, touch, smell and taste- as a source of truths, believeing that many things as precieved by these senses were only 'appearance."

Hey Ark2. Found someone that thinks like you.

Plato reject the sense-of seeing, hearing, touch, smell and taste- as a source of truths, believeing that many things as precieved by these senses were only 'appearance."

Descartes thought the same way too. It's really not all that crazy if you think about it. Though to be fair, I don't reject my senses.

in accordance with entropy, NOTHING in the universe is self organizing (an ice lattice does melt btw)

that seems wrong, gravity seems sufficient to explain why planets are round, an organisation of atoms that requires no external guidance.

galaxies, ocean waves, hurricanes, tornados, quartz crystals.
each definitly organised, with no need for an organiser.

two magnets will automatically align themselves the same way every time, without defying entropy.


you seem to be saying that since the organisation is not eternal, because of entropy {true}... and there is where I lose you.

since eternal organisation is not possible temporary organisation is equally impossible ??

naaaw.



breaking this down further, electrons within atoms and atoms within molecules did not magically organize themselves unless there was some Design causing them to do so (from an origins perspective, not current conditions)...and the elements exist in amazing synergy

but 'electrons within atoms and atoms within molecules' DO absolutely arrange themselves, just as the magnets do, only with many more possible configurations.

if you mix hydrogen atoms {H} with oxygen atoms {O} some of them WILL spontaniously "organise" themselves into water molecules{H2O} and a few will clump into hydrogen peroxide molecules {H2O2}. and a bunch will clump into H2, and O2 molecules.



youi see the world as it is, and you foolishly believe it just "happened", because the natural order of things is so astounding

it's the chicken and the egg, you are blinded by your Darwinian world view that you have been indoctrinated with..."nobody x nothing = the universe!"


and I see you as being so impressed by the evolved configuration that you must believe that it's impressive complexity is a product of will rather than natural unguided forces inherent in this universe.

Plato reject the sense-of seeing, hearing, touch, smell and taste- as a source of truths, believeing that many things as precieved by these senses were only 'appearance."

Descartes thought the same way too. It's really not all that crazy if you think about it. Though to be fair, I don't reject my senses.



heh, scientific "Laws" are only temporary approximations useful because of their observed consistancy.

which is why it is so goofy of creationists to get so het up about theories.

the key point was, information does not arise from *nothing*

atheists must concede at some point in the past there was NOTHING

why ? what evidence of this nothing is there that indicates its existance ?

if you are talking about DNA "information", since there is currently nothing there I have no difficulty seeing that there probably was nothing there in the past too.

energy (or matter) cannot be eternal
then what made god?
or
if god can be eternal, why not matter/energy?

energy is derived from a source...it cannot be eternal, unless the source is eternal

energy progressively moves to a lower state in the physical dimension

so when the energy has filled all the low areas and reached equilibrium and no longer has anywhere to move to, it is destroyed ?

no, it is still there, the universe contains exactly the same ammount of energy, it is just bored energy.

since we do not know where energy comes from, deciding that there must be a source seems .. premature .

considering that we DO know that matter spontaniously appears in a vaccume, a possible source of energy that would exist in the future as well as the past, I don't see any reason to expect it to stop.

maybe prayer can change the rate of particle creation ?

care to elabortae?

see hawking on how black holes "radiate particals".

also the 'casmire effect' misspelled casmire, I think


of course you have heard of the concept of the "heat death" of the universe, right?

an old theory that new evidence is casting doubt on, it doesn't take into account quantum.

energy is derived from a source...it cannot be eternal, unless the source is eternal

energy progressively moves to a lower state in the physical dimension

im not just picking on you yzf, but my other friend here, honergod, also. You both are really screwed up on science. You two alhemier old timers need to stfu and rethink.

Yes YZF. Matter does not die. It lays dormat until energy comes along. And we can cunsume energy anywhere and it is everywhere. We get it by radiation, convection, conduction. Tiny worlds are colliding everywhere. Collected in places like black holes. Black Holes eventually explode and form new worlds. It is a perpetual motion unstoppable.

So really, we are in a river of energy. We began when something ended. The god's before us are dead now. Big Bang Theory? Probable.



Just try to live a good life.

"river of energy"? are you implying energy is eternal? if so, no reputable physicist agrees with you

Some will. Some wont. Its never clear. Its something that requires a lot of experiment. I really dont have a clue after that. Only makes sense to me is all.

I'm talking about the absolute origin of energy, neither you or honegod can explain it, you just whip out the theotretical physics jargon you are NOT qualified to talk about

Correct. however, you cant explain your stuff very clear either. your only explaination, so far, is a bunch of cavemen saying yes there is a god. seriously. its that stupid and obvious, and i just cant comprehend why people still think there is a god or some magic out there that does stupid-arse stuff like mass murder.

i dont get it. I guess im too smart. Or good looking. One or the other.

um, the apostles and prophets are not "cavemen" :rolleyes:

3500 years of authority and accuracy concerning the scriptures, and some little nobody like you comes along in 2006 and says it's all bunk

do you know how foolish your position is? do you know you're warring against God Himself, and you can only lose (big)?


Wow. Just Wow. Are you kidding me? 3500 years of what? Have you not read a damn thing? Do you insist using preacher lies? OMG they taught you to lie so well, you believe it. my position? What am i losing that isnt rightfully mine anyway? a soul? haha hahaha hahahaha lol lololllolo1l1o11o1l1o1l

know jesus no god
/sigh

um, the apostles and prophets are not "cavemen" :rolleyes:

3500 years of authority and accuracy concerning the scriptures, and some little nobody like you comes along in 2006 and says it's all bunk

do you know how foolish your position is? do you know you're warring against God Himself, and you can only lose (big)?

here we go again.....

"He is Vigo!! You are like buzzing of flies to him!!!"

Hey Marky--still ignoring the forum rules I see.....what is so hard to understand for you when Kevin tells you that ALL RELIGIONS(OR LACK OF RELIGIONS) WILL BE TREATED WITH RESPECT?? This is a place to discuss different beliefs--it is NOT A PLACE FOR MARKY TO SHAME PEOPLE IN AN EFFORT TO WIN CONVERTERS.

Your act is worn out, ya know. Why not just swallow a ton of that neverending pride of yours and try making friends with those whom you wish to convert FIRST? When faced with a friend or a stranger, which would you be more likely to at least give a listen to? Always gotta put everyone at your feet, like you have it right and no one else does....Even if you do have it right, HUMILITY should come from that--the desire to get the message out shoudl outweigh the pride you display over anything else, by having to insult anyone who doesnt drink the same koolaid you do.....

this goofball isn't pushing any religion, he's just a moron

you're status is already etched in stone

how's the cancer jonnie???

IT doesnt matter what religion he is or is not pushing--the fact is clear....you agreed to treat ANY AND ALL RELIGIOUS VIEWS OF OTHERS WITH RESPECT. You fail to do so on a daily basis.

Oh, and dont worry about the cancer. you obviously are not asking out of geniune concern. Which reminds me--didnt you get the message on THAT the last time you brought it up, either???

and where has this loon treated what I believe with respect?

that goes both ways....


1--for someone who claims so much to be on the right path, you sure are so often wrong, arent you???

Tell you what--that's your story?? Good--stick to it....and when YOUR day of judgment comes, just tell God that you only acted with complete and utter disrespect and self-righteous pride in His name "because they did it to me first".....I'm sure He will fully understand....:bigthumb:

2--the guy barely came here, you read what he wrote, and almost immediately dismissed him as a "moron", "loon", "idiot" and "fool". he barely had a chance to say very much to you in the first place, and even if he did, it doesnt matter--YOU promised Kevin that YOU would follow the rules. Stop hanging your failure to do what is right on others and be a man. For a while I stayed quiet in here, because you are so convinced that "you are never the problem" and "I am the problem"....and something interesting happened. You still disrespected people, still insulted people, and still went around this place like you were better than everyone else. CLEARLY, that shows that you are definitely part of the problem, champ.

3--it always comes back to the same thing. You dont work on your issues because you are far too busy trying to point out everyone else's issue to them. You cannot even acknowledge your faults--more times than not it is "the other guy" that you blame....I love when you bring up things I did on the other forum, because you could not even be over there without breaking LAWS, Mark. I'd say without a doubt that your behavior over there precludes you even thinking about trying to criticize someone else in that forum. But hey, thats just my opinion....you go with whatever you think is right.

4--respect is earned in this world. You want respect? Try giving some. Last I recall, I didnt see czar start insulting you. I saw you start insulting him. So dont bs with me about how it goes both ways. If anything, people do not give you respect because they see the disrespect you hand out on a regular basis. For example, you will note that I have not followed your lead there. You insult enough for both of us, so I figure I will leave that to you....

wrong....all wrong

I watched him for a period of several days, almost a week, before I said one word to him

it was a constant stream of mocking, sarcastic, antagonostic stuff from day 1...he gets exactly what he deserves

I wish you could see how ridiculous you sound.....IT IS A FRIGGIN INTERNET FORUM. Perhaps you should just chill out already. Besides, if you see something that is offensive, that is personally directed at you, why not do what the rules say and bring it to a mod?

By the way, how about some truth instead of the lies you just told??

1--you waited EXACTLY ONE DAY to post about him. He first posted on 8/13. This is a post from you on the very next day--

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=104072&postcount=49

you're wasting your time with this guy, jason, but more power to ya (I guess)

he hates God, and always will....he's beyond warped

God created weeds

That was your first post that had anything to do with him. WOW--look at the respect that oozes from those words....

By the way, have you ever given thought to the possibility that you are not here to exact revenge for God's sake?? All of your "he gets what he deserves" garbage has no place in the Bible....except for this:

Vengeance is mine, SAID THE LORD.....

go away, jon....no one cares

one day you *might* realize no one cares about anything you post....ever


Every time I hit a nerve, suddenly "no one cares", but any other time, you just cant stop replying....how ironic that is....

but hey--dont blame the messenger.....I am not the one who lied back there, you are.

or perhaps you can't stop replying

gee, make up your mind already....first you claim that I follow you, and then you claim that I cannot stop replying. They both cannot be true, scooter....you cant even keep your lies straight anymore...

um, the apostles and prophets are not "cavemen"



30And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

I'm talking about the absolute origin of energy, neither you or honegod can explain it, you just whip out the theotretical physics jargon you are NOT qualified to talk about

admittedly Navy Nuclear Power school was rather heavy on practical application of physics, but there was a rather firm base of theory required.

and your degree is in ... ?

but Moses did not dwell in a cave :)

not in a natural cave, but an artificial cave.

all the good real caves being occupied.


http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/9/6

The arrival of quantum mechanics, however, completely changed our notion of a vacuum. All fields - in particular electromagnetic fields - have fluctuations. In other words at any given moment their actual value varies around a constant, mean value. Even a perfect vacuum at absolute zero has fluctuating fields known as "vacuum fluctuations", the mean energy of which corresponds to half the energy of a photon.

However, vacuum fluctuations are not some abstraction of a physicist's mind. They have observable consequences that can be directly visualized in experiments on a microscopic scale. For example, an atom in an excited state will not remain there infinitely long, but will return to its ground state by spontaneously emitting a photon. This phenomenon is a consequence of vacuum fluctuations. Imagine trying to hold a pencil upright on the end of your finger. It will stay there if your hand is perfectly stable and nothing perturbs the equilibrium. But the slightest perturbation will make the pencil fall into a more stable equilibrium position. Similarly, vacuum fluctuations cause an excited atom to fall into its ground state.



The Casimir force is the most famous mechanical effect of vacuum fluctuations.


{yup, I did misspell it.}

so, just to clarify your position, you believe energy is eternal, right?

as I tell the 6 year old, it's complicated.

yes - heat death, the energy is all still there, there is just no variation for the energy to move around in.
big crunch - the energy is still ...somewhere, after the singularity.

note, Believe is a trick word. when I use it it means "don't know, best guess based on current understanding" NOT "absolute truth that I will die to defend.".

note, Believe is a trick word. when I use it it means "don't know, best guess based on current understanding" NOT "absolute truth that I will die to defend.".

This sounds like Peter's behaviour when he allegedly denied jesus 2 times...maybe 3.

you are avoiding the question: is energy eternal (without origin/beginning)?

yes - heat death, the energy is all still there, there is just no variation for the energy to move around in.
big crunch - the energy is still ...somewhere, after the singularity.

need more rope ?

constant creation - zero point energy has to be coming from somewhere to appear here.

big bang - the energy that started this universe had to be somewhere else "before" the singularity.


the point of this belief is that we can look for where the energy came from.

huh?

is the term "singularity" unfamiliar ?

what is your question ?

heh, could it be that the notion of being able to hold two or more versions of reality in mind as live possibilities causes you puzzlement ?

yup, don't know means don't know so choosing a single possible explanation seems silly in the absence of conclusive evidence pointing at one.

personally, I like 'continuous creation' and am disappointed at how the evidence increasingly points away from it.

I am a fan of reality.

you are avoiding the question: is energy eternal (without origin/beginning)?


constant creation - zero point energy has to be coming from somewhere to appear here.
big bang - the energy that started this universe had to be somewhere else "before" the singularity.
the point of this belief is that we can look for where the energy came from.

Me? I believe there is an origin. Proof? Sound waves from your speakers. Is Marilyn Masion God?

Me? I believe there is an origin. Proof? Sound waves from your speakers. Is Marilyn Masion God?

Trent Reznor invented sound.

lol

Were it not for Trent Reznor, you would not be able to laugh out loud right now. Think about it.

At least he dosent eat what i dont eat.

http://www.furisdead.com/page/425-trent.jpg

Yeah, there are somethings in life that I can't defend..... Damn you Czar!! lol

hehe :)

that guy is seriously warped

Who, Trent? Maybe a little but the guy is a genius.

Easy with the "L" word. I'm no liberal. Who would you consider to be a musical genius then?

didnt Santana think he was god?
i think, IMO, Deep Forest (Beheme) are musical geniuses. but I havent listened to everything.

Mozart, Handel, Beethoven

modern rock/pop "artists" don't hold a candle

and rip/hip-hop doesn't even register as a blip

Good answer, but you forgot Stravinsky.

ewwwwww
its like sawing pregnant cats

:bowdown: the three B's

Bach

Beethoven

Black Sabbath.

is there anything to argue about while the two chatty people sit in jail for 2 days?

not unless you consider country western the only True form of music approved by god.

It has to be music from god. I could listen to (old) glen campbell (pre gay rhinestone cowboy era) and randy travis 24/7.

I can handle genuine bluegrass but having to listen to people wearing fake cowboy hats really makes me want to bust stuff up with a baseball bat, or a cricket bat, whichever is handiest.

how bout a heavy crucifix? I heard they can hurt

possibly some razor sharp ninja throwing stars of david.

naah, the closest I come to a crucifix is my 32oz ball-peen.

which is too short to really give satisfaction.

wait ... HURT ???

bust up STUFF !!!! not HURT anything. jheeze.

whites keep missing the point...

whites keep missing the point...
I heard that quote from a movie....?

I heard that quote from a movie....?

which one? cuz i didnt intend it as a quote

OK. then I did not understand the meaning about "whites missing the point".

and what, o' presumably swarthy sage, IS the point ?

if one doesnt judge, then how does one determine who constitutes "the damned" ? :D

if one doesnt judge, then how does one determine who constitutes "the damned" ? :D

They dont. They let the bible think for them. So I guess that means you 'other than white?' missed the point.

They dont. They let the bible think for them. So I guess that means you 'other than white?' missed the point.


i just made that up, but it does make good sense. ps the bible doenst think.......:owned:

i just made that up, but it does make good sense. ps the bible doenst think.

I think you made good sense. however if the bible reads that 'so and so' does this and 'so and so' does that, thus they will be damned. Since most religions require their followers to not think for themselves, followers rely on the bible (as their sword and such) to form their decisions. Yes, you and I can see how crazy it is. but to step in their shoes, they arent calling the shots. The words in the bible is.

if one doesnt judge, then how does one determine who constitutes "the damned" ? :D

If you are driving to Florida, am I judging you when I say "you're going to Florida"?

If you are driving to Florida, am I judging you when I say "you're going to Florida"?

yes, I may well be driving to Atlanta, or touring the nation, or going to catch the Space Shuttle to the ISS.

you don't know, which is the point.



They let the bible think for them.

exactly the problem.


the bible doesn't think

why it is a problem.

Gosh and so honegod ties it all together and goes away for awhile

Gosh and so honegod ties it all together and goes away for awhile

I told my isp to cancel my account, the email said 0800 on the 3rd, oops.

{I'm moving and will not get back online until I can get a HIGH SPEED connection, this 28.8 dialup is for , well,, not me anymore ;) it might be quite a while though, the ancestorial mansion is way out in the country so a dish looks like the only choice, though with enough inginuity radio might be possible. }