"You've said that if we do not believe in Christ," he said, "we are lost and condemned. I'm sorry, I just cannot buy that. I work with some fine people who are Muslim, Jewish, or agnostic. I cannot believe they are going to hell just because they don't believe in Jesus. In fact, I cannot reconcile the very idea of hell with a loving God—even if he is holy too."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/outreach/articles/preachinghellinatolerantage.html

So plenty of good god fearing folk are going to hell because you say they are not doing it right. It is going to be pretty lonely up there

Fuck it. I am going to go kill a hooker, because it apparently doesn't matter if I am a good person or not I'm still going to hell(if you believe in that sort of thing).

why does jesus need money?

we've been over this... hookers and blow

ah, worthy

By you.... lol

Ah, I see, lol.

Random spambot?

If god feeds the birds and lions, then why does jesus need money?

cant answer? any other so called xtains want to take a stab at that question?

can you write? It's ok, you always act out like a child when cornered. nothing new here. Can you answer? probably afraid.

"You've said that if we do not believe in Christ," he said, "we are lost and condemned. I'm sorry, I just cannot buy that. I work with some fine people who are Muslim, Jewish, or agnostic. I cannot believe they are going to hell just because they don't believe in Jesus. In fact, I cannot reconcile the very idea of hell with a loving God—even if he is holy too."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/outreach/articles/preachinghellinatolerantage.html

I feel the same way, I know many good people of different creeds and it is lunatic to think they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus....just as it is stupid to call them an infidel because they are not Muslim. This is just another attempt by religion to control masses threw fear, it's sad.

Read the link. :)

Read the link. :)

lol will do

Read the link. :)

To be perfectly honest Tofu. I respect you, and since I'm skimming anyway I've taken your suggestion (even though it wasn't aimed towards me). Or atleast, I've started to.

This part has me really hemmed up though:

If an area is rid of its predatory or undesirable animals, the balance of that environment may be so upset that the desirable plants and animals are lost—through overbreeding with a limited food supply. The nasty predator that was eliminated actually kept in balance the number of other animals and plants necessary to that particular ecosystem. In the same way, if we play down "bad" or harsh doctrines within the historic Christian faith, we will find, to our shock, that we have gutted all our pleasant and comfortable beliefs, too.

I don't think you can accurately compare a natural ecosystem, with it's perfect checks and balances, that has developed and balanced itself for hundreds and thousands (if not millions) of years, with a man-made believe structure.

Humoring the idea that G-d made the Earth, including everything in it, and G-d made man. Is it not wrong to assume that, because man is inherently flawed, ANYTHING man creates is not comparable on the same level to anything created by G-d?

Therefore, the Christian religion, which has been collected, compiled, written down (it was once an oral tradition, was it not?) and edited by man is NOT comparable to an ecosystem in perfect balance. An ecosystem which was designed, created, and modified by G-d.

With this all being understood, would it not make more sense to seek the teaching and essence of G-d in the natural world, as opposed to a man-made creation?



G-d's perfect creation (nature) can easily teach the cause and effect of ones actions and their consequences. Why should people "sell themselves short" by studying and worshiping a man made object/idol such as a book, when they can just as easily step out into the ultimate learning environment created by G-d, for us?

I would like to reply to your whole post, but with my wrist smashed up it's really painful\bothersome to type that much - so you only get "reply-mini" :P

Why should people "sell themselves short" by studying and worshiping a man made object/idol such as a book, when they can just as easily step out into the ultimate learning environment created by G-d, for us?

I had the same kind of question (http://readingtofu.blogspot.com/2008/08/my-own-story-part-3-one-nagging.html) - in fact, I took it one farther and said "How could someone as smart as you be Christian?

"How can you possibly believe the Bible" I said to him "Man pollutes everything he touches, there is no way this book is authentic after thousands of years. It's a translation of a translation!"

I would like to reply to your whole post, but with my wrist smashed up it's really painful\bothersome to type that much - so you only get "reply-mini" :P

:bigthumb:


I've met people like Jon before. They are NOT average!!!

If my assessment is correct, then Jon would have been the same whether he was a Christian, Hasidic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Pagan. He was intelligent enough to see the underlying theme of his belief structure, and humble enough to follow it!

If, instead of reading the Bible Jon had studied תּוֹרָה, the Quran, or Buddha's teachings would it have changed him as a person? They each hold the same underlying lessons, do they not? All major religions teach the same basic disciplines. They are moral guidelines.

How does one having the arrogance to call ALL the other beliefs evil and deserving of eternal suffering make it superior?



Since I was about 3 years old (no kidding) I have rejected modern christianity. This same hitch has bothered me since "M&M Mondays", and "Tasty Tuesdays" (theme days my father tried to use in order to motivate my sisters and I to learn the bible)... I find it incredibly difficult to show patience with people who yearn to brainwash themselves into believing perversions such as this.




How can preaching fear as the sole motivator truthfully lead to a congregation of intelligent free thinkers that are not caught up in a repressed self-hatred reminiscent of slavery? The scary thing (to me) is that, in cases like this, instead of being physically confined and broken into submission, you are spiritually broken and confined. How, in situations such as this, can this be called free will?

Please don't get me wrong. I do not feel this is the case for all devout people (my best friend is an Orthodox Jew, the last woman I loved has moved to Israel and changed her name (what does "Yahalom" mean btw, do you know?) and I will happily respect anybody who is honest and true to their faith).... It's just that, unfortunately, there are sooooooooo many bad apples these days that one must question the tree on which they grow.


Drinking 7.0%+ cider after a 56 hour week (compressed into 4 actual days) before getting into religious discussions makes you rant and forget the initial point.....

Do you see what I'm getting at though?

Aw man, I hope you realize you're physically hurting me here :p

:bigthumb:I've met people like Jon before. They are NOT average!!!

If my assessment is correct, then Jon would have been the same whether he was a Christian, Hasidic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Pagan. He was intelligent enough to see the underlying theme of his belief structure, and humble enough to follow it!

Oh no, the beliefs are different. I have a Hindu friend of the same caliber. Simply being strong enough to follow a code, being a moral person, is one thing - having the Holy Spirit within is a whole other thing.

If, instead of reading the Bible Jon had studied תּוֹרָה, the Quran, or Buddha's teachings would it have changed him as a person? They each hold the same underlying lessons, do they not? All major religions teach the same basic disciplines. They are moral guidelines.

Of course the Torah has the same teachings as the Bible, it's in the Bible :P But if you are a devout follower of Moses and the prophets, then surely you would accept the messiah they speak of, even telling of the exact day he would ride into Jerusalem on the foal of an ass.


However, all those books you speak of, even in the Bible they are not all teachings, and they are not the same underlying lessons unless you wish to boil it down too far.

How does one having the arrogance to call ALL the other beliefs evil and deserving of eternal suffering make it superior?

...

How can preaching fear as the sole motivator truthfully lead to a congregation of intelligent free thinkers that are not caught up in a repressed self-hatred reminiscent of slavery?

Fear (respect) is only the beginning of understanding. "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind."

Love is the motivation that would drive us to follow God's statutes and commandments - we are not servants, but heirs in the Messiah, His Son.

The scary thing (to me) is that, in cases like this, instead of being physically confined and broken into submission, you are spiritually broken and confined. How, in situations such as this, can this be called free will?

Submission is voluntary. If a bone sets wrong, it must be broken to set it right. It is not our works that get us into heaven - it is a free gift that frees us from the slavery of sin, that we may choose to follow God - just as God used Moses to lead the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt.

Please don't get me wrong. I do not feel this is the case for all devout people (my best friend is an Orthodox Jew, the last woman I loved has moved to Israel and changed her name (what does "Yahalom" mean btw, do you know?) and I will happily respect anybody who is honest and true to their faith).... It's just that, unfortunately, there are sooooooooo many bad apples these days that one must question the tree on which they grow.

I don't know what that name means :p

I also don't know if everyone who follows their faith is worthy of respect - I find it hard to respect people who would kill me for my race.

^ sleep time. I'm exhausted. I'll reply in kind later today/tonight Jason

is it broken?

lol your such a kiss ass to the owner and the mods.....

Err, I'm not an owner or a mod.

I'm just a dude playing the dude disguised as another dude.

Err, I'm not an owner or a mod.

I'm just a dude playing the dude disguised as another dude.

balls.....fasepalm, I thought Levi said you were a mod.

he didn't tell you, hmm must not have the highest opinion of you. anyway if you want to call me stupid by my name I am Steve:bigthumb:

Steve and Levi....hmmmm....hope this isn't Brokeback Mountain, U.K. :)

http://www.rx7club.com/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

balls.....fasepalm, I thought Levi said you were a mod.

Nah, I believe that was Kevin ($100T2) I mentioned when you were at mine and registering.

Mark appears to hate Kevin with a seething passion because he's not Christian (in the slightest). Tofu is our resident Jew and the level head of the Religion section, think of him as the equivalent of Aaron on here, minus the stabby impulses.

Nah, I believe that was Kevin ($100T2) I mentioned when you were at mine and registering.

Mark appears to hate Kevin with a seething passion because he's not Christian (in the slightest). Tofu is our resident Jew and the level head of the Religion section, think of him as the equivalent of Aaron on here, minus the stabby impulses.

lol I R s0 fukng stup3d...I remember now:40oz:

Hi Steve :)

is it broken?

Yes.

Hi Steve :)



Yes.

nice to meet you bro:peace:

who wants to hear about accountability and judgment in an age of apathy and "do as I feel"?

Me!

how is the wrist doing, chief?

Sore, but better. I gotta take it easy, doc says. At least I don't have to wear the brace anymore.

get back on the bike and GUN IT!!!!

:)

Since I was about 3 years old (no kidding) I have rejected modern christianity. This same hitch has bothered me since "M&M Mondays", and "Tasty Tuesdays" (theme days my father tried to use in order to motivate my sisters and I to learn the bible)... I find it incredibly difficult to show patience with people who yearn to brainwash themselves into believing perversions such as this.

This sort of thing is not exclusive to religion. Take me for example: I'm a Calgary Flames fan. Every year I convince myself that "this is the year". Not only that, but I frequent boards populated with other like-minded idiots. Same thing can be said about the partisanship in politics. However, if you feel strongly about something, such things should not discourage you from them.

How can preaching fear as the sole motivator truthfully lead to a congregation of intelligent free thinkers that are not caught up in a repressed self-hatred reminiscent of slavery? The scary thing (to me) is that, in cases like this, instead of being physically confined and broken into submission, you are spiritually broken and confined. How, in situations such as this, can this be called free will?

You have obviously seen parts of the world where I am sure what you are describing is a very real reality. Yet, I think that too much of this is often made by those who find themselves on the skeptical side of the argument. Many people turn to religion during times of great anxiety. However, it is not fear that guides them there, but rather the desire to be free from fear. In doing so, they are comforted. You may argue that religion is self serving, as I am sure that for many it is, but there are many motivators behind it. Those who are "broken and confined" as you have described have issues deeper than their religion.

It's just that, unfortunately, there are sooooooooo many bad apples these days that one must question the tree on which they grow.

But why would you give these bad apples the ability to influence your relationship with God?

The oft parroted "preraching fear" line by little fendermonkey completely misses the entire New Testament. Contrast such mindless ranting by weeds with the beautiful doctrine of Romans, the symphony of the soul for those Elected by God. Who can even begin to comprehend what the Son of God sacrificed that we might live forever and be declared righteous?

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Romans is where you begin as a (slightly open minded) unbeliever, right after Ecclesiastes

But why would you give these bad apples the ability to influence your relationship with God?

+1,000

someone gets it...

The finger pointing/excuses by the grandstanders will have nil traction at the judgment