For the folks that totally denounce evolution, and only believe in creationism*, I'm wondering: What's the reasoning behind things like the appendix, tonsils, and wisdom teeth? In a medical sense they're useless, but can cause horrible problems, pain, and death in some individuals.

I'm not trying to start an argument, this is a legitimate question. I'm not going to respond with refuting points, I'm just genuinely curious.

*I may be misunderstanding creationism, so if I'm using this incorrectly, then what I really mean is the folks who just totally don't believe in evolution in the scientific sense of the word; Darwin's theories, natural selection, etc.

the teeth will be history in a few thousand years as we evolve. so will short people

Yes common decent is fiction when you deny true science and genetics in particular. But of course darwinian "fairy tales" have evidence while the fairy tales of the bible demonstrate more fallacies than anything.

God created plants and animals that, according to Genesis, reproduce after their own kind, and ONLY after their own kind..."common descent" is mythology

Given the methology of common decent then, and that you cannot add DNA to an organism, the topic of asexual lizards is relevant here.

So because you cannot add DNA to an organism, and the DNA of these female lizards were there from creation, how did they survive the flood if only pairs of male and females were on the ark, as listed not once but twice in Genesis?

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/spencer_wells_is_building_a_family_tree_for_all_hu manity.html

Lol yes science has conspired all these years to destroy biblical fallacies by revealing the truth.

You're right about history though. It does speak loud and clear and has yet to say anything to support biblical origins. Obviously you know nothing about the fossil record just as you know nothing about radiometric dating.

"It's all false if it doesn't support what I want it to" is the creationist standpoint. Any rational person sees right through it.

His DNA approach is nonsense. It's not a matter of gaining or loosing DNA. It's a matter of using what you have or not. For instance there are scientists who have made chickens to hatch with scales and teeth by triggering existing DNA. Its always there.

correction, religious atheists/agnostics have conspired in an attempt to remove God from His Creation, and remove God from their consceince, but they have failed...miserably....the vast majority of clear thinking, non brainwashed individuals believe in a Creator...it's obvious to them, because God "made is plain to them" (Romans 1)...the evidence DOES support created kinds, that fact is irrefutable!

backyardsod, run back to your hole on DoO

Once again you have it backwards. It takes more free will and understanding to remove god from conscience than vice versa. Especially since religious folks like to indoctrinate their children with nonsense at a young age. Your last part is complete garbage. Any clear minded, semi-intelligent person looking at unbiased evidence would laugh at biblical creation. Which is exactly why christianity has to work off of human emotion (especially fear) instead of rational.

Creationism is the science of ignorance. Which is why cults like AIG only have enough money to fund biblical supporting pseudo-science (typically composed of manipulating other peoples work) out of their trailer park laboratories.

Don't like what I have to say then put me on ignore. Your weak little name calling only continues to show your true colors.

which again is simply re-shuffling of pre-existing information, which only becomes degraded over time...nothing new ever forms....darwinism is mythology

Positive mutations have been observed. You are wrong again. Your degradation theory holds no ground. Human species as a whole is continuing to effectively improve in and of itself.

goo-to-you evolution is delusional religion for morons


You know, if you think about it, this goo-to-you argument is a false hood.
Are you trying to tell me there are no examples of single cells turning into multi-celled organisms? That this is some fallacy?

Let me remind you that every creature on this earth starts off as a single cell. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Better yet, they all start off in goo as well...its all in the programming.

BTW, you can ignore the asexual lizards as much as you want, but their existence proves alone that 'literal' Genesis is a fallacy.

but the DNA code contained in that egg is completely unique for every created kind....and the fantastically complex information contained therein did not write itself

great vid http://illustramedia.com/umolinfo.htm (see preview clip)


only half of the DNA code is in the egg. ...until it is fertilized. And yes its in the DNA programming is where it turns from a single cell to a multi cell organism.

But still its starts as a single cell, and that you cant refute. So this single cell crap stance you have is out the window.

And again, why do you constantly ignore the asexual lizard facts?

For the folks that totally denounce evolution, and only believe in creationism*, I'm wondering: What's the reasoning behind things like the appendix, tonsils, and wisdom teeth? In a medical sense they're useless, but can cause horrible problems, pain, and death in some individuals.

I'm not trying to start an argument, this is a legitimate question. I'm not going to respond with refuting points, I'm just genuinely curious.

*I may be misunderstanding creationism, so if I'm using this incorrectly, then what I really mean is the folks who just totally don't believe in evolution in the scientific sense of the word; Darwin's theories, natural selection, etc.

While I can accept some amount of evolution, it doesn't come close to solving the exponentially larger questions of how we got here.

God designed living things with a limited ability to adapt

based on? your perception? facts please....

explain why the human race is still alive. (it is because we adapt very well...it is called remembrance and intelligence)

explain why the human race is still alive. (it is because we adapt very well...it is called remembrance and intelligence)

then explain to me where "intelligence" came from. There's no way you can realistically tell me that intelligence just came into being on its own. We have survived because we were designed to survive up to this point. The dinosaurs didnt survive because they were not designed to survive up to this point. Intelligence doesnt just magically appear as a concept out of nothing. So where do you claim it came from?

based on? your perception? facts please....

ok....dinosaurs, like I just mentioned. They were not capable of adapting as much as they would have had to in order to still be around today. Thats a perfect example.

the term intelligence came from us. the fact of how we are capable to do such a thing is anyones guess at this point. but for sure, it is this intelligence that can communicate and store facts has enable us to evade problems or know how to neutralize it. Animals with poor intelligence, even learning disability humans, will have a tough time to survive even the simplest task that life has to offer. therefore, our ability to adapt isn't limited or if it is, we aren't aware of this. of course we can say we are limited but why sell ourselves short when there are no facts to back this up?

black plague is one example.

the term intelligence came from us. the fact of how we are capable to do such a thing is anyones guess at this point. but for sure, it is this intelligence that can communicate and store facts has enable us to evade problems or know how to neutralize it. Animals with poor intelligence, even learning disability humans, will have a tough time to survive even the simplest task that life has to offer. therefore, our ability to adapt isn't limited or if it is, we aren't aware of this. of course we can say we are limited but why sell ourselves short when there are no facts to back this up?

ok, here's food for thought--

with all this intelligence the human race possesses, how can we "neutralize" death? It's certainly coming to us all, no? So in the end, how will you survive that? You need to understand that intelligence is NOT, repeat NOT what has allowed us to survive all this time as a race. Want proof? Ask yourself how, if intelligence is needed to survive, how are alligators still around? They are know for having small brains and are not among the more intelligent creatures on the planet.....yet they have outlived countless other creatures. How? Intelligence clearly wasnt what allowed them to do so. Therefore, it must be something else at work--something WE didnt create or invent.

I cannot tell you with ironclad proof "this is what it is", but I can tell you what I believe without doubt it is. Clearly there's something else at work here, bigger than the human race.

then explain to me where "intelligence" came from. There's no way you can realistically tell me that intelligence just came into being on its own.

Isn't that what one must assume when you believe in god?

ok, here's food for thought--

with all this intelligence the human race possesses, how can we "neutralize" death? It's certainly coming to us all, no? So in the end, how will you survive that? You need to understand that intelligence is NOT, repeat NOT what has allowed us to survive all this time as a race. Want proof? Ask yourself how, if intelligence is needed to survive, how are alligators still around? They are know for having small brains and are not among the more intelligent creatures on the planet.....yet they have outlived countless other creatures. How? Intelligence clearly wasnt what allowed them to do so..


Obviously they have enough intelligence to do what is necessary for their survival. They may not be smart enough to make their own clothes. But then again, they don't need to in order to survive. Our intelligence became a necessity for our survival.

ok, here's food for thought--

with all this intelligence the human race possesses, how can we "neutralize" death? It's certainly coming to us all, no? So in the end, how will you survive that? You need to understand that intelligence is NOT, repeat NOT what has allowed us to survive all this time as a race. Want proof? Ask yourself how, if intelligence is needed to survive, how are alligators still around? They are know for having small brains and are not among the more intelligent creatures on the planet.....yet they have outlived countless other creatures. How? Intelligence clearly wasnt what allowed them to do so. Therefore, it must be something else at work--something WE didnt create or invent.

I cannot tell you with ironclad proof "this is what it is", but I can tell you what I believe without doubt it is. Clearly there's something else at work here, bigger than the human race.

yes, a lot of water creatures survived because the killing factor isn't intelligent. water makes a good barrier of diseases. i noticed this because I myself is smrt. my gene pool is superior and will likely survive any holocausts and will lead the charge of killing any claimed Jesus..

I'll let jon answer his own way, but my response to that would be the Designer/Creator of the physical universe must necessarily transcend the physical...make sense?

No

Just because something magically "transcends the physical", one would have to be mad to suggest anything "unintelligent" could design/create what you are suggesting.

How many ways does one have to assume the impossible?

Isn't that what one must assume when you believe in god?

no, one must assume that if they believe in God, that intelligence was created like all other human traits and qualities were created. it didnt just appear one day out of nothing at all. That was my point.


Obviously they have enough intelligence to do what is necessary for their survival. They may not be smart enough to make their own clothes. But then again, they don't need to in order to survive. Our intelligence became a necessity for our survival.

Think about this one now, for just a second.....

a COLD-BLOODED animal survived an ICE AGE.

Think about this one now--and before you reply, please dont tell me that while the world was frozen that a cold-blooded animal(which needs warmth to survive) survived by remaining in very cold water all that time. Keep in mind that alligators are only found in warm climates for a reason...and it isnt because they can survive freezing temperatures very well.

yes, a lot of water creatures survived because the killing factor isn't intelligent. water makes a good barrier of diseases. i noticed this because I myself is smrt. my gene pool is superior and will likely survive any holocausts and will lead the charge of killing any claimed Jesus..

see above.

also, water might be a barrier for some diseases--but it is also a mighty fine carrier of others. Why do you think they tell you not to drink the water in Mexico? because the bacteria that causes those illnesses thrives and survives in the same substance you just told us is a barrier against such things.

Not only that, but two other things are wrong with your logic--

1--disease is not what killed off those creatures, an ice age did.
2--alligators dont spend their whole life in the water. they have to come up for air and so on. so they would have been exposed to more than just waterr.

No

Just because something magically "transcends the physical", one would have to be mad to suggest anything "unintelligent" could design/create what you are suggesting.

How many ways does one have to assume the impossible?

the problem here is not "assuming the impossible"....its the fact that you automatically write it off as "impossible". Remember, at least for me, I clearly stated that I am only talking about what I BELIEVE and not what there is ironclad proof for. you are the one who made the choice to throw God out as "impossible" and that limits your thinking ability as to what is left as "possible". Thats something you have to make your peace with, but think about it--its not very smart to by default rule anything out when you have no proof either way. That puts you in an all or nothing gamble. Think of it this way--

if a christian is wrong about the existence of God, then the only thing that will happen is that this person has lived a better life, been more helpful to his fellow man, etc etc etc. if I am wrong, then nothing bad happens. BUt--if I am RIGHT, and you blow that off as "impossible", what are YOUR chances of coming through that? For you, "impossible" means that you are in a gamble at best. For me, being wrong only means that I lived by a code that I believed in, that even makes me a better husband and father, and thats not a bad thing by any standard. It isnt like I am going to feel like I missed out on something because maybe I didnt party like some people did, or didnt chase tail like some others did, or didnt spend my whole life living for things I couldnt take with me anyways like money....think about that.

no, one must assume that if they believe in God, that intelligence was created like all other human traits and qualities were created. it didnt just appear one day out of nothing at all. That was my point.




Think about this one now, for just a second.....

a COLD-BLOODED animal survived an ICE AGE.

Think about this one now--and before you reply, please dont tell me that while the world was frozen that a cold-blooded animal(which needs warmth to survive) survived by remaining in very cold water all that time. Keep in mind that alligators are only found in warm climates for a reason...and it isnt because they can survive freezing temperatures very well.



see above.

also, water might be a barrier for some diseases--but it is also a mighty fine carrier of others. Why do you think they tell you not to drink the water in Mexico? because the bacteria that causes those illnesses thrives and survives in the same substance you just told us is a barrier against such things.

Not only that, but two other things are wrong with your logic--

1--disease is not what killed off those creatures, an ice age did.
2--alligators dont spend their whole life in the water. they have to come up for air and so on. so they would have been exposed to more than just waterr.

water with ice has a saturated temperature of 32 degrees. ice age does not quiet volcanoes or heat vents. you don't find gators in Michigan. its a concentration of human waste that spoils the water table. ask mark.

what's your definition of "magic"? is anything we can't perceive considered "magic"?

You tell me? You're the one making the assumtion



not sure I follow this, please clarify...why assume the Designer is "unintelligent"/vacuous?

I asked if one has to assume a god to be spontaniously intelligent and you came back with "Designer/Creator of the physical universe must necessarily transcend the physical". So where were you going with that?



I guess this is a reference to endless possibilities associated with the unknown, sure, I'll give you that, but the naturalist/materialist position on origins is entirely short-sighted and one dimensional

Not really. Assumptions are short sighted to me. Everything you claim above is based upon them.

all the more reason why it's about faith....anyone can believe something once its proven to them, that doesnt take anything at all to do.

water with ice has a saturated temperature of 32 degrees.

like I said, freezing water.....

ice age does not quiet volcanoes or heat vents.

you don't find gators in Michigan.

these two go together--again, think about it. Gators are not found in Michigan, they are found in far warmer climates, right? OK, so since thats the case, the volcanoes and heat vents you speak of would have had to heat the environment to such an extent that a lot of other life would not have died off either. Sorry, no dice, thats not a good theory--the planet was freezing, there were plenty of animals that died off because of lack of heat, but all of a sudden you expect that an animal that survives in hot climates would have had enough heat to make it? Why didnt all kinds of others have enough heat as well? What--you think that all the earth's volcanoes and heat vents were suddenly located in just the right spot to only save the alligators??

its a concentration of human waste that spoils the water table.

and I suppose that the water back then didnt have any wastes from any living creatures in it? I suppose that its only a modern problem? Not only is it not even the point because disease wasnt what killed them all off, but its simply wrong anyways. Water is easily contaminated by all sorts of things--like you said, ask Mark. Why else would drinking water be so scrutinized in this world? It certainly is NOT because "water is such a great barrier against bacteria".

air borne disease and diseases spread by insects can not penetrate water, nor tough skins. human waste problem noted by your insertion of Mexico 'don't drink the water' was not a problem a looooong time ago. they didn't have a large population of human nor it's industry wastes.

something survived the ice age. that would be the warmer sectors of the equators. look at Florida. things can survive the ice age there. including evasive humans who apparently can survive the Yukon cold as it is.

so is any other hypothesis of origins...actually, it's pure speculation, aside from the evidence of sudden inflation of cosmos

I'll take our hypothesis over yours any day.

air borne disease and diseases spread by insects can not penetrate water

That is 100% false. there are even cases of insects or parasites getting washed off of animals and ending up in drinking water. Another example is found in this link:

http://www.greercpw.com/water_facts.htm

What's that pink stuff in your bathroom?

Many customers have noticed a pink scum that forms around drains of sinks and tubs and at the waterline in toilets. The pink film is not caused by CPW's water, but a naturally occurring airborne bacteria. The pink color is more prevalent in more humid rooms and new and remodeled homes where the microscopic dirt and dust is stirred up from construction activities. After becoming airborne, the dust and bacteria settle on all exposed surfaces. The bacteria react with standing water and form a pink film.

The best way to reduce this potentially harmful bacterial film is frequent cleaning.

so much for "it cannot penetrate water", right? The bacteria mentioned in that public works article is described as settling on top of water and reacting with water, causing a harmful film to form. There goes that one....in case you needed more, try this article on:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/12/981216180159.htm

Spraying Water Containing Airborne Bacteria Found At Some Indoor Swimming Pools Can Cause ‘Lifeguard Lung’

ScienceDaily (Dec. 17, 1998) — DENVER-Lifeguards at indoor swimming pools with water spouts and sprays, waterfalls and water slides may contract a lung disease after breathing bacteria suspended in water droplets small enough to be inhaled into the lungs. This is the first time that indoor swimming pools have been identified as a source of continuously-occurring lung inflammation.

Lifeguards with symptoms worked an average of 31 hours a week at the pool; only people working in the pool area suffered from the illness. Airborne bacteria--suspended in water droplets sprayed from various pool water features--made the lifeguards sick even though some initially blamed their symptoms on a cold or overwork.

Called granulomatous pneumonitis, this disease is characterized by inflamed nodules in the lungs. The disease is caused by the immune system in the lungs “turning on” in reaction to an inhalant.

A little reading goes a long way...


human waste problem noted by your insertion of Mexico 'don't drink the water' was not a problem a looooong time ago. they didn't have a large population of human nor it's industry wastes.

of course, I already addressed that--let's try a little reading, you would be amazed at how well it could work--this is what I said earlier that you missed:

and I suppose that the water back then didnt have any wastes from any living creatures in it?

I dont suppose it dawned on you at all that although there wasnt a massive human population there WAS a truly massive ANIMAL population? All those dinosaurs and everything else, dropping their turds all over the place? I dont suppose that could be why I said "any living creatures", could it??

when it comes to waterborne disease, you will find that a great deal of it in fact comes from ANIMAL wastes, not just human poo-poo. What will you tell us next--that the T-Rex was potty-trained?

Two of these that have become more prevalent recently are Giardia Lamblia and Cryptosporidium--this second one infected some 400,000 people arould Milwaukee back in 1993. both are spread by animals, and both can enter water supplies either through direct fecal contamination or by rainwater runoff. Neither one needs human feces at all to be spread. And believe me, they had a buttload of animals back then...

I'll take our hypothesis over yours any day.

with all due respect to you guys, I have been hammering on your hypothesis and theories all evening. First, it's "volcanoes", then it's "airborne bacteria cannot penetrate water"....what's next?

something survived the ice age. that would be the warmer sectors of the equators. look at Florida. things can survive the ice age there. including evasive humans who apparently can survive the Yukon cold as it is.

Which explains perfectly the world-wide death of all those dinosaurs....what, none of them called Florida home, just the gators? Again, where is the reason or logic in this? All these different types of creatures, from tiny to massive, and the gator survives where just about everything else didnt....in the warm climate areas? Wow, I'm sure glad you guys were here to explain that one. That clears up EVERYTHING....:bigthumb:

where do we find dinosuar bones?

they have been found in places varying from cold climates to hot ones, so your theory there has one big hole in it. Not saying that I have all the answers, but at least we can tell that theories like what youre saying simply dont add up. Dinosaurs roamed the earth, they most certainly didnt all reside "in Michigan", to revisit your example about gators....that means they were in hot climates as well as cold ones. And they didnt survive no matter what climate they lived in. This is something that your theory does not account for.

well, like I'm saying, alligator survived by happenstance. they also could have swam to a warmer area like Cuba. instinct. and to say the ice age killed dinosaurs? well, it certainly killed something but obviously, not all.

no, one must assume that if they believe in God, that intelligence was created like all other human traits and qualities were created. it didnt just appear one day out of nothing at all. That was my point..

So then who created the creator?




Think about this one now, for just a second.....

a COLD-BLOODED animal survived an ICE AGE.

Think about this one now--and before you reply, please dont tell me that while the world was frozen that a cold-blooded animal(which needs warmth to survive) survived by remaining in very cold water all that time. Keep in mind that alligators are only found in warm climates for a reason...and it isnt because they can survive freezing temperatures very well..

The whole world was not covered in ice during the ice age they would have had to survive. There were still places with moderate climate which would be in places we would now have warmer climates. It would have looked something like this.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ice-age-cover.jpg

Also from the last ice age (glacial maximum period)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png

Notice that florida is a temperate desert.

Which explains perfectly the world-wide death of all those dinosaurs....what, none of them called Florida home, just the gators? Again, where is the reason or logic in this? All these different types of creatures, from tiny to massive, and the gator survives where just about everything else didnt....in the warm climate areas? Wow, I'm sure glad you guys were here to explain that one. That clears up EVERYTHING....:bigthumb:

The mass extinction you are talking about wiped out over 70% of the species on earth at the time. It just so happens alligators have great survival features. They can go without eating for 2+ years which may have been a strong contributing factor. Also it has been shown that many of the surviving species happen to have been aquatic which may have also been a contributing fator of survival to what ever caused the incident. Nobody knows for sure what caused the mass extinction, however alligators have shown thier durability to survive through through the worst of times. They will probably outlive humans.

ty sog. i was lazy

again, if the Creator transcends the creation, your reasoning is flawed

think bigger...infinitely bigger...step outside the bounds of naturalism for a minute

So now you are the one trying to get something from nothing.

Bible believers know

No they speculate based upon what they want to be true when the evidence shows otherwise.

Hell, they can't even accept the true age of the earth.



no one knows how long the dinosaurs persisted after the ice age, it may have been many centuries

Is there a point to this? I already stated we don't even know for sure if the ice age is what wiped them out. Either way alligators have been around for 200 million years. They are the natural M1 tank.

Notice that florida is a temperate desert.

--which, once again, begs the question of why more than just gators didnt survive? What about any other dinosaurs? Big, small?? Why dont we see any others? If Florida was warm enough to sustain life, then why not OTHER life?

Like I said, your theories have these big holes in them. There's no getting past that no matter how many times you visit wikipedia.....what happened to the volcanoes argument? And why arent you still claiming incorrect info abotu bacteria and diseases? And now this? "it was warm enough to allow gators to survive, just not much of anything else...."??

--which, once again, begs the question of why more than just gators didnt survive? What about any other dinosaurs? Big, small?? Why dont we see any others? If Florida was warm enough to sustain life, then why not OTHER life?

Like I said, your theories have these big holes in them. There's no getting past that no matter how many times you visit wikipedia.....what happened to the volcanoes argument? And why arent you still claiming incorrect info abotu bacteria and diseases? And now this? "it was warm enough to allow gators to survive, just not much of anything else...."??

When did I say anything about bacteria and disease? There is no certainty as to what exactly caused the mass extinction.

Other creatures did survive btw. Like i said. Do you know of any other dinosaurs who can hold out without eating for two years?

So whats your theory then? God just so happens to have a thing for alligators?

When did I say anything about bacteria and disease? There is no certainty as to what exactly caused the mass extinction.

Other creatures did survive btw. Like i said. Do you know of any other dinosaurs who can hold out without eating for two years?

So whats your theory then? God just so happens to have a thing for alligators?


my apologies, I should have stated more clearly--when I was talking about "your theories", I was talking about all of you who are posting in this thread, not just you personally.

And while I know that other creatures did survive, the general explanation we're getting from you doubters here is that "gators survived because they were in the warm areas". My question was not "why didnt anything else survive", it was "why didnt any of these other creatures(like dinosaurs) survive in those warmer spots? If it was warm enough for gators, why not any of the other dinosaurs? THAT was my question, I hope that clears it up a bit.

As for my theory, well, someone contended that gators survived because they had the intelligence needed to adapt to the conditions. And then, someone says "they can go without food for two years". That right there kills the "intelligence" theory dead--how can intelligence determine how often you will eat like that? If you need food every day, and you suddenly say "hey, I'm really smart, I think I will change to eating once every two years", all you will end up is dead. My theory is that God creates everything for His purpose, and we wont ever have that kind of understanding while we're on this planet. I dont pretend to know, nor have I ever, why God does what He does. I can only say that these wild, all-over-the-place theories are nothing more than random guessing, and even though we dont have the actual answer, some of them are simply ridiculous. Better IMO to admit you dont know something than to say "youre clearly wrong, thats a fact, and I am right, but I dont know the answer myself".

As for my theory, well, someone contended that gators survived because they had the intelligence needed to adapt to the conditions.


sky, wtf? i swear that you are the only one capable of reading Gandhi bio and claim he is writing about cooking hamburgers. no wonder you seemed confused. ya got to stick to the point. make sure you understand your adversaries points as well. it is likely you have a habit of misreading peoples posts so you are sorely in need to repeat their point so it is clear to ya...like this: (especially mine since we all know how i write in here)

"oh, did you just say only humans or all mammals and living things?"

see? and it was a short sentence too and we wouldn't have to needlessly kill more trees as you ran with the wrong idea.

sky, wtf? i swear that you are the only one capable of reading Gandhi bio and claim he is writing about cooking hamburgers. no wonder you seemed confused. ya got to stick to the point. make sure you understand your adversaries points as well. it is likely you have a habit of misreading peoples posts so you are sorely in need to repeat their point so it is clear to ya...like this: (especially mine since we all know how i write in here)

"oh, did you just say only humans or all mammals and living things?"

see? and it was a short sentence too and we wouldn't have to needlessly kill more trees as you ran with the wrong idea.

thats strange...I wasnt aware that killing trees was required for using teh intarweb....put down the crack pipe now, please, before its too late.

In any event, what did I post that confused you? Thats exactly true--someone here actually said that gators were intelligent enough to survive. Then, we hear about how they can go for years without eating. Just because you dont like the way my post killed your theories, there's no need to be rude and sarcastic about it. you could simply admit that all these theories you guys are trying to come up with are not even educated guesses--they are just guesses, and not even good ones.

For example, the fact that they can go without food for 2 years was listed here as a possible reason why they survived. But thats not possible--there HAD to be food sources here for the surviving population because no other animals--out of all the ones that survived--could make it that long without food. So once again, one of you posted a BS theory, and now youre gonna post a bit of crap because you dont like that the theories get shot down. Dont hate the messenger, chief--common sense would have served you well before such nonsense was even posted to begin with.

ah yes, let's cut on divr because he posts a lot of words. well, thats to be expected when you run out of things to say that are actually relevant to the discussion at hand. do yourself a favor--if you cant post without that nonsense, then just dont post because youre only showing your own inability to handle an intelligent debate with any maturity. Its hilaious to see you, in the same breath, complain about me "not sticking to the topic", and then talk about the length of a post, and "killing trees". Good call, champ. hope that works out for you. In the meantime, youre the genius that claimed, wrongly, that airborne bacteria couldnt penetrate water. funny, we didnt see one more word from you on that, but at the same time, when I proved that to be garbage, all you can come back with is "stick on topic, divr, and stop making such long posts".

Clearly, I am not the confused one.

someone here actually said that gators were intelligent enough to survive.

im ready to view such a claim.

lol me too

my apologies, I should have stated more clearly--when I was talking about "your theories", I was talking about all of you who are posting in this thread, not just you personally.

And while I know that other creatures did survive, the general explanation we're getting from you doubters here is that "gators survived because they were in the warm areas". My question was not "why didnt anything else survive", it was "why didnt any of these other creatures(like dinosaurs) survive in those warmer spots? If it was warm enough for gators, why not any of the other dinosaurs? THAT was my question, I hope that clears it up a bit.

As for my theory, well, someone contended that gators survived because they had the intelligence needed to adapt to the conditions. And then, someone says "they can go without food for two years". That right there kills the "intelligence" theory dead--how can intelligence determine how often you will eat like that? If you need food every day, and you suddenly say "hey, I'm really smart, I think I will change to eating once every two years", all you will end up is dead. My theory is that God creates everything for His purpose, and we wont ever have that kind of understanding while we're on this planet. I dont pretend to know, nor have I ever, why God does what He does. I can only say that these wild, all-over-the-place theories are nothing more than random guessing, and even though we dont have the actual answer, some of them are simply ridiculous. Better IMO to admit you dont know something than to say "youre clearly wrong, thats a fact, and I am right, but I dont know the answer myself".

There ability to not eat for two years comes from a natural ability to shut their system down. Just because they can doesn't mean it's healthy. How many days can a human go without food? Even though they can pushing themself to that limit comes few and far between. As I have stated before, we don't even know what caused the mass extinction. The only thing was pointing out was your fallacy that they had to live through freezing temperatures.

Are bears unintelligent because they know when to hibernate? All I said was they are intelligent enough to get by and I stand by that.

Really there is no point arguing your theory because god gets an open card on everything. Do you think we know more about why god would make an ice age or why only crocodiles survived one?

im ready to view such a claim.

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=213980&postcount=32

Obviously they have enough intelligence to do what is necessary for their survival. They may not be smart enough to make their own clothes. But then again, they don't need to in order to survive.

or, you could have just read it yourself, it came from this thread. it isnt my job to make up for your laziness. If you dont care enough to read the posts yourself, I am not going to keep spoon-feeding you.

There ability to not eat for two years comes from a natural ability to shut their system down. Just because they can doesn't mean it's healthy.

that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the claims people here have made concerning this topic--

--that the gators survived because water is a barrier against bacteria
--that the bacteria in question only came from human waste, which wasnt a problem back then
--that gators survived because they were intelligent enough to
--that they survived because they could go for two years without eating

It doesnt matter one bit if thats healthy for them or not--the claim was made and thats that. Good for them or bad makes no difference.

The only thing was pointing out was your fallacy that they had to live through freezing temperatures.


fallacy?? how so? there were different conditions throughout the ice ages, affecting different parts of the world in different ways. also, there is plenty of dispute as to what actually took place in the last one--one of you posted wiki info that claimed Florida was a "temperate desert" then, but other sources have said that Florida was underwater then! In either case, I asked a question about this very point that none of you have any answer for--if the temps really were what youre saying, why didnt the other animals and dinosaurs survive there as well? Surely youre not suggesting that only gators lived in that area, are you?

In the end, I am debating with people that claimed that bacteria cannot enter water, that gators were intelligent enough to not eat for two years, and other theories as they see fit. I have yet to see any of you get any of this stuff correct. So, count my "error" about temperature any way you like--it still puts me well ahead of where you guys are at on this one.

Oh, about temperature, one more thought for you--gators live in Florida TODAY. That doesnt in any way mean that they didnt live further north BACK THEN, before the ice age took place. They dont live in Michigan NOW. but they USED TO.....

http://discovermagazine.com/2001/may/featalligator

And the alligator has already survived the Ice Age. Fossil records show the gator simply moved south as ice sheets advanced, and then north again when they receded. "Alligators have certainly lived on the Potomac River before, and they might again," Ross says, only half joking. And then, deadpan: "Should be lots of nice coastal marsh habitat when the ice caps melt and the sea level rises."

Refer back to this post from sog--

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=214159&postcount=51

--and again look at the howstuffworks map. Notice the ice coverage--the part of the country where the Potomac is, well, thats under ice on sog's map. Thats a place where gators lived. And yet, you want to tell me that freezing temps werent where the gators were? There goes your "divr's fallacy", right out the window.

Are bears unintelligent because they know when to hibernate? All I said was they are intelligent enough to get by and I stand by that.

What in the word do bears have to do with the intelligence of gators? And to think, you guys are the geniuses telling ME that I am not staying on topic? Again, how did the bears GET that intelligence? they certainly didnt procure it themselves. And gators are not surviving because of intelligence--they have survived because of how they were designed. They havent even really evolved all that much over their history--that in itself proves that design is more a factor than adaptation, intelligence, or how often they need to eat.


Really there is no point arguing your theory because god gets an open card on everything.

and really, there's no point in arguing against my theory because the best you guys have been able to offer are false claims about bacteria and where alligators have lived. But I dont see that stopping any of you....

you know sky. you starting to piss me off. all you had to say is, "i got that information from backyardsog, brah."
but you didn't. instead you spew all this mellow drama intangible crap out and fortunately, i didn't read. so ill let you slide on this one.

you know sky. you starting to piss me off. all you had to say is, "i got that information from backyardsog, brah."
but you didn't. instead you spew all this mellow drama intangible crap out and fortunately, i didn't read. so ill let you slide on this one.

sure, you didnt read it--that perfectly well explains why you knew who said it now, and you didnt before I posted that.

next time youre gonna try lying for my benefit, try this--dont.

in the meantime, all I can do is pray that you get a stiff dose of wake-up. eventually, youre gonna realize that you cant drag me down with you, and you arent gonna shake my faith. just because you've been able to get some other people to come at you cursing and so on, that doesnt mean you can break me the same way. youre simply not strong enough and you dont stand a chance. I prayed for you today, for you to find something. If you find it, let me know.

and this explains wut? i guess you needed to get something off your chest. wake me up when you are ready to write something new. I'm eager to see mor fail.

and this explains wut? i guess you needed to get something off your chest. wake me up when you are ready to write something new. I'm eager to see mor fail.


then just look at your sig--whenever someone needs to quote themselves in their sig, it shows fail. you have quoted yourself twice, so there's double the fail in your sig.

Enjoy!!!

that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the claims people here have made concerning this topic--

--that the gators survived because water is a barrier against bacteria
--that the bacteria in question only came from human waste, which wasnt a problem back then
--that gators survived because they were intelligent enough to
--that they survived because they could go for two years without eating

It doesnt matter one bit if thats healthy for them or not--the claim was made and thats that. Good for them or bad makes no difference.....

lol. you're kidding right? You asked why didn't more creatures survive the Florida area where gators flourish and suddenly the ability to not eat for two years at a time is irrelivant?

fallacy?? how so? there were different conditions throughout the ice ages, affecting different parts of the world in different ways. also, there is plenty of dispute as to what actually took place in the last one--one of you posted wiki info that claimed Florida was a "temperate desert" then, but other sources have said that Florida was underwater then! In either case, I asked a question about this very point that none of you have any answer for--if the temps really were what youre saying, why didnt the other animals and dinosaurs survive there as well? Surely youre not suggesting that only gators lived in that area, are you?

ummmm you said this

Think about this one now, for just a second.....

a COLD-BLOODED animal survived an ICE AGE.

Think about this one now--and before you reply, please dont tell me that while the world was frozen that a cold-blooded animal(which needs warmth to survive) survived by remaining in very cold water all that time. Keep in mind that alligators are only found in warm climates for a reason...and it isnt because they can survive freezing temperatures very well.?

Please show me one point in time during alligators exisance that "the world was frozen". So the world went from being completly frozen to various conditions?

I am not a paleontologist so i can't answer what dinosours lived in the area. However i offer an explanation as to why gators could have outlived many other species and it becomes irrelivant to you. I have also mentioned many times that there is no definative proof of what wiped the dinosours out so how can one even offer the explanation you see fit?


In the end, I am debating with people that claimed that bacteria cannot enter water, that gators were intelligent enough to not eat for two years, and other theories as they see fit. I have yet to see any of you get any of this stuff correct. So, count my "error" about temperature any way you like--it still puts me well ahead of where you guys are at on this one.

I offered the theory of them not being able to eat for two years as a possible explanation as to how they could have oultived many other creatures. Obviously it takes a little brain function for them to shut there system down when there is no food in order to survive.



What in the word do bears have to do with the intelligence of gators? And to think, you guys are the geniuses telling ME that I am not staying on topic? Again, how did the bears GET that intelligence? they certainly didnt procure it themselves. And gators are not surviving because of intelligence--they have survived because of how they were designed. They havent even really evolved all that much over their history--that in itself proves that design is more a factor than adaptation, intelligence, or how often they need to eat.....

My original statment

Obviously they have enough intelligence to do what is necessary for their survival. They may not be smart enough to make their own clothes. But then again, they don't need to in order to survive. Our intelligence became a necessity for our survival.

The only point I made about alligators was that they are as intellgent as they need to be in order to survive which is apparent by there survival. I even provided a comparison to why humans need to be so much more intellgent to do the same thing. But I'm sure they must be completly unitelligent by relocating due to climatic change. How could one even argue design? If everything was designed by a perfect god there would never have been any speceies wiped out from the climatic conditions they were "designed" for.




and really, there's no point in arguing against my theory because the best you guys have been able to offer are false claims about bacteria and where alligators have lived. But I dont see that stopping any of you....

I never said anything about bacteria. Alligators havn't lived in Florida?

In the end this little tidbit about alligators really is just a tiny string supporting a god theory. Your support of it depends on the ignorance of information alloted which apparently is why you continue to conclude the mass extinction was absolutly caused by a climatic change. You claim that you don't know why god does what he does so your entire argument provides no alternatives besides throwing your arms in the air and saying "god just does what he does".

lol. you're kidding right? You asked why didn't more creatures survive the Florida area where gators flourish and suddenly the ability to not eat for two years at a time is irrelivant?

it is exactly that, and I already explained why. 70% of all animals on the earth didnt survive the ice age, and gators are the only ones that can go without eating for years. So, if that was relevant to their survival, it would mean that they survived because they COULDNT eat for that period of time--that there was no food for them to eat. What about the rest of the 30% that survived?? If there was a need to not eat for years just to survive, and gators are the only ones that can do that, wouldnt the rest of them not survived? THAT is why it isnt relevant. Its called common sense. Your theory didnt possess any.


Please show me one point in time during alligators exisance that "the world was frozen". So the world went from being completly frozen to various conditions?

Well, there WAS more than one ice age, and even the "proof" you posted shows that the places where alligators populated were in fact covered with ice. As I already showed, gators didnt only live in the south before, they lived over much of the north as well. and THOSE places WERE frozen.

I am not a paleontologist so i can't answer what dinosours lived in the area. However i offer an explanation as to why gators could have outlived many other species and it becomes irrelivant to you. I have also mentioned many times that there is no definative proof of what wiped the dinosours out so how can one even offer the explanation you see fit?

see above, answered and dealt with already.

I offered the theory of them not being able to eat for two years as a possible explanation as to how they could have oultived many other creatures. Obviously it takes a little brain function for them to shut there system down when there is no food in order to survive.

again, see above. The ice age didnt wipe out all other life besides gators, and only gators were able to not eat for that long. How then did the others survive? There is no definitive answer for that question because the theory is invalid.


The only point I made about alligators was that they are as intellgent as they need to be in order to survive which is apparent by there survival. I even provided a comparison to why humans need to be so much more intellgent to do the same thing. But I'm sure they must be completly unitelligent by relocating due to climatic change. How could one even argue design? If everything was designed by a perfect god there would never have been any speceies wiped out from the climatic conditions they were "designed" for.

according to many sources, people were alive and survived for a time as well. how, if there was no food?

besides that, intelligence is not the factor, as I have already shown. Alligators were designed with thick hides, like armor. Sharp teeth. Powerful muscles to close their jaws. Ability to stay in water for long periods of time. it doesnt take intelligence for that--thats how they were made. Their intelligence has nothing to do with that. In just the same manner, bears have thick fur. They have it so that they can survive the cold climate. They dont have it because they were "smart enough to grow fur". They have it because they were DESIGNED WITH IT. Brain power is not in any way involved with that process--at least not their own brain power. does that make sense, finally?

I never said anything about bacteria.


Reading would serve you well, young padawan:


and really, there's no point in arguing against my theory because the best you guys have been able to offer are false claims about bacteria and where alligators have lived. But I dont see that stopping any of you....

That was quite clearly posted to more than just you, it was obviously not a claim that YOU personally said something about bacteria. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle....


Alligators havn't lived in Florida?

I'm not going to even waste the time it would take to cut & paste from earlier in this thread. Here's a hint--try actually reading posts before commenting. you just might get somewhere that way. NO ONE, myself included, EVER claimed that gators didnt live in Florida. Let me know when you find your error on this one...


In the end this little tidbit about alligators really is just a tiny string supporting a god theory. Your support of it depends on the ignorance of information alloted which apparently is why you continue to conclude the mass extinction was absolutly caused by a climatic change. You claim that you don't know why god does what he does so your entire argument provides no alternatives besides throwing your arms in the air and saying "god just does what he does".

thats rather funny--of the people here like you that doubt God's involvement, we see false theories and claims about bacteria, false claims about where alligators did or did not live, false explanations about evolving, and not one bit of factual explanation for anything. And at the same time, you actually have the audacity to stand behind all of that, and talk to me about ignorance.

Good luck with that one, sog....really....

it is exactly that, and I already explained why. 70% of all animals on the earth didnt survive the ice age, and gators are the only ones that can go without eating for years. So, if that was relevant to their survival, it would mean that they survived because they COULDNT eat for that period of time--that there was no food for them to eat. What about the rest of the 30% that survived?? If there was a need to not eat for years just to survive, and gators are the only ones that can do that, wouldnt the rest of them not survived? THAT is why it isnt relevant. Its called common sense. Your theory didnt possess any

No they didn't survive the mass extinction of the time. There are many other theorys that could have been associated with the mass extinction of the time. Perhaps you should do a little more research on the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event.

For example

http://www.geologie.uni-freiburg.de/root/people/ulmer/ries/arizona.gif




Well, there WAS more than one ice age, and even the "proof" you posted shows that the places where alligators populated were in fact covered with ice. As I already showed, gators didnt only live in the south before, they lived over much of the north as well. and THOSE places WERE frozen.

I know but there hasn't been one which rendered the earth completly frozen as you stated since well before life such as alligators roamed the planet.

Also the alligators are not prevelant now in the frozen places you mention. So what is your point? Are you saying they actually didn't survive the frozen temperatures as you suggested they did before?



again, see above. The ice age didnt wipe out all other life besides gators, and only gators were able to not eat for that long. How then did the others survive? There is no definitive answer for that question because the theory is invalid.

I never said otherwise. But i also said the ice age has been the only contributing factor of the time.



according to many sources, people were alive and survived for a time as well. how, if there was no food?

Humans are much more resourceful at asertaining food. Aquatic life has shown to have been much more succesful at surviving the mass extinction. Not sure why.

besides that, intelligence is not the factor, as I have already shown. Alligators were designed with thick hides, like armor. Sharp teeth. Powerful muscles to close their jaws. Ability to stay in water for long periods of time. it doesnt take intelligence for that--thats how they were made. Their intelligence has nothing to do with that. In just the same manner, bears have thick fur. They have it so that they can survive the cold climate. They dont have it because they were "smart enough to grow fur". They have it because they were DESIGNED WITH IT. Brain power is not in any way involved with that process--at least not their own brain power. does that make sense, finally?

Lol what do physical features have to do with intellgence? Not to mention how do you know that alligators have always been able to hold out for long periods of time without food? They very well could have adapted due to the conditions we are speaking about. A bear doesn't know to go into hibernation because it has thick fur. They do it to conserve calories due to times of food shortages.



I'm not going to even waste the time it would take to cut & paste from earlier in this thread. Here's a hint--try actually reading posts before commenting. you just might get somewhere that way. NO ONE, myself included, EVER claimed that gators didnt live in Florida. Let me know when you find your error on this one..

Then perhaps you shouldn't quote me when making arguments against statments I never made?



thats rather funny--of the people here like you that doubt God's involvement, we see false theories and claims about bacteria, false claims about where alligators did or did not live, false explanations about evolving, and not one bit of factual explanation for anything. And at the same time, you actually have the audacity to stand behind all of that, and talk to me about ignorance.

Good luck with that one, sog....really....

Well i never talked about bacteria or where alligators did or did not live (besides Florida if you want to prove me wrong on that). I don't know what false claims you are accusing me of about evolution. The theory as a whole has NEVER been proven wrong.

I doubt gods existance all together. His involvment is a real tall tale if you ask me. But no sense in arguing your point. Just bash the information we have instead of bringing anything concrete to the table to support your own.

thats just it--you dont HAVE any information. thats the whole point!

And once more, why are you still repeatedly crying about "I didnt mention bacteria" in there? Didnt I already cover that? I'm fairly sure that I did. bears now learned to hibernate because of intelligence? youre kidding, right? That's a good one....

let's try it this way--there are some really dumb people on this planet. Dont they ALL know to eat when they are hungry? INTELLIGENCE has NOTHING to do with the basic instinct of survival. thats the way we were created, son.


Then perhaps you shouldn't quote me when making arguments against statments I never made?

In that case, forgive me for assuming that you could read "you guys" and "all of you" and not somehow think that I was talking only to you. My bad--trust me, I wont ever again give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common sense like that.

No they didn't survive the mass extinction of the time.

They didnt? What didnt? Gators? People? Other animals? when you figure out what it is youre trying to think, be sure to let us all know.

thats just it--you dont HAVE any information. thats the whole point!.

On what? The mass extinction? How about showing me that an ice age is with out a doubt what completley wiped out the dinosours.



And once more, why are you still repeatedly crying about "I didnt mention bacteria" in there? Didnt I already cover that? I'm fairly sure that I did. bears now learned to hibernate because of intelligence? youre kidding, right? That's a good one....

let's try it this way--there are some really dumb people on this planet. Dont they ALL know to eat when they are hungry? INTELLIGENCE has NOTHING to do with the basic instinct of survival. thats the way we were created, son.

Is that why a mother bear teaches her cubs? But im sure everything they LEARN is due to their unintelligence. Of course species know when to eat when they are hungary. Monkey see, monkey do, is still cognizant intelligence.


They didnt? What didnt? Gators? People? Other animals? when you figure out what it is youre trying to think, be sure to let us all know.

I was refering the the 70% of animals on earth.

Is that why a mother bear teaches her cubs? But im sure everything they LEARN is due to their unintelligence. Of course species know when to eat when they are hungary. Monkey see, monkey do, is still cognizant intelligence.

so, they hibernate because mommy teaches them to? Nope, wrong. Mommy teaches them HOW to catch food--not how to get hungry. Mommy doesnt teach them to grow fur, they already have it. Mommy doesnt teach them to have basic survival instincts, thats simply how they are designed. Bears hibernate far longer than other mammals--others like rodents have to get up once in a while to release wastes--but bears dont. That, just like not eating for two years, is NOT something that's taught. Momma bear doesnt have to tell her cubs not to wake up until the spring! The thing with gators and eating is no different--it is the way they are made, not a learned skill. That is not gator intelligence--it's intelligent design.

I was refering the the 70% of animals on earth.

And just where did I ever claim that 70% survived? I think youre in need of some more of that reading thing again, chief.

so, they hibernate because mommy teaches them to? Nope, wrong. Mommy teaches them HOW to catch food--not how to get hungry. Mommy doesnt teach them to grow fur, they already have it. Mommy doesnt teach them to have basic survival instincts, thats simply how they are designed. Bears hibernate far longer than other mammals--others like rodents have to get up once in a while to release wastes--but bears dont. That, just like not eating for two years, is NOT something that's taught. Momma bear doesnt have to tell her cubs not to wake up until the spring! The thing with gators and eating is no different--it is the way they are made, not a learned skill. That is not gator intelligence--it's intelligent design..

So teaching them how to do anything and them learning isnt a form of intellgence? How about the people who own crocodiles and alligators who take them for walks. They are known to obey commands by their owners. Is that also not a form of intelligence? When it comes to gators. The intelligence isnt the process learned itself. But the time to use it. Like I said. They are as intelligent as they need to be.


And just where did I ever claim that 70% survived? I think youre in need of some more of that reading thing again, chief.


it is exactly that, and I already explained why. 70% of all animals on the earth didnt survive the ice age, and gators are the only ones that can go without eating for years.....

You said they didn't survive. I was agreeing with you that they didn't. However I don't agree that it was from an ice age.

You said didn't four times in regards to what i said. How did this turn into a "did"?

http://crocodilian.com/crocfaq/faq-2.html

"Yes, crocodilians can learn very well. You won't be able to train them to fetch your slippers, but given time they can recognise individual people and react to them in a positive or negative manner. They can learn events, such as what leads up to feeding time, or enclosure cleaning time. Be aware, however, that this can work against you if you're not careful. For example, if you feed your animal the same way day after day it will learn the routine and know when to expect food to appear. If you accidentally duplicate parts of this routine when you clean the enclosure, the animal may think it's about to be fed - and getting bitten by an over-enthusiastic caiman is a very likely possibility.

In the wild, crocodilians display a wide range of social and sometimes even cooperative behaviours. The creature regarding you from behind the glass is smarter than you think."

I never said that they had no intelligence--the debate there is that I dont think they have the intelligence to learn not to eat for two years. Do you see the difference now? How do you think that "teaching a gator to roll over on command" somehow proves that they "learned" not to eat for years? THAT was the point I have been making. I never said they possessed no intelligence. And to that end, whether or not they can be taught to "go for a walk" with their owner, that has nothing at all to do with "intelligent enough to survive the ice age". See the difference?

I never said that they had no intelligence--the debate there is that I dont think they have the intelligence to learn not to eat for two years. Do you see the difference now? How do you think that "teaching a gator to roll over on command" somehow proves that they "learned" not to eat for years? THAT was the point I have been making. I never said they possessed no intelligence. And to that end, whether or not they can be taught to "go for a walk" with their owner, that has nothing at all to do with "intelligent enough to survive the ice age". See the difference?

Your whole argument was that because alligators lacked intelligence that being intellgent has nothing to do with human survival. I say that is utter nonsense. The fundamental key to our survival is based upon our intellgence.

I never claimed that alligators learned the process (even though we don't know if it is a talent they have always possesed). You asked for a reason which would support other species dying while they lived. All I said was they are as intelligent as they need to be in order to survive. I'm guessing when there is no food they are smart enough to shut thier system down. I am yet to see any evidence of divine intervation on their behalf.

I still would like to see the information you have showing that a natural occuring ice age is what wiped out all the dinosours.

I never claimed that they learned the process (even though we don't know if it is a talent they have always possesed). You asked for a reason which would support other species dying while they lived. All I said was they are as intelligent as they need to be in order to survive. I'm guessing when there is no food they are smart enough to shut thier system down. I am yet to see any evidence of divine intervation on their behalf.




And once again I will ask the same exact question--if 30% of all animals survived, and only alligators can stop eating for two years, doesnt common sense dictate that there was not a need to stop eating like that in order to survive? If there was, how could anything else survive without shutting down in the same way? Now youre just going in a circle--you already stated this, and I already asked this question....and you have yet to respond with an answer. You said they were intelligent enough to survive--and then you made a point of saying that they could go two years without food. And I told you that is irrelevant, because others survived and they couldnt stop eating, so there HAD to still be food sources, no? We've covered this ground already, and you still have no answer for that. Meanwhile, those of you in this thread(see that--at this exact moment I am NOT, repeat NOT only speaking to you--get it this time?) that doubt God have talked about "bringing anything concrete" and taking the information that you have.....but you have no information after all. I have stated numerous times that I rely on faith because none of us actually knows or was there to see any of this first-hand, and you guys shoot that down in favor of "having information" that you really havent got....

And once again I will ask the same exact question--if 30% of all animals survived, and only alligators can stop eating for two years, doesnt common sense dictate that there was not a need to stop eating like that in order to survive? If there was, how could anything else survive without shutting down in the same way? Now youre just going in a circle--you already stated this, and I already asked this question....and you have yet to respond with an answer. You said they were intelligent enough to survive--and then you made a point of saying that they could go two years without food. And I told you that is irrelevant, because others survived and they couldnt stop eating, so there HAD to still be food sources, no? We've covered this ground already, and you still have no answer for that. Meanwhile, those of you in this thread(see that--at this exact moment I am NOT, repeat NOT only speaking to you--get it this time?) that doubt God have talked about "bringing anything concrete" and taking the information that you have.....but you have no information after all. I have stated numerous times that I rely on faith because none of us actually knows or was there to see any of this first-hand, and you guys shoot that down in favor of "having information" that you really havent got....


First show me that it was an Ice age that caused the mass extinction. One needs to know the cause in order to understand the effect.

Here you go. If you really want information on what survived and a good reason why certain creatures (including 50% of the crocodilian families) suffered extinction during the most recent mass extinction event. Then happy reading. There are plenty of others where those came from.

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~presto/cenozoic.pdf

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1554%2F03-509&ct=1&SESSID=b9bc9249fb6e73fa515d5d7cc9c86307

correction, during THE recent mass extinction event, as in, one...and one subsequent ice age

sorry, asteroids didn't do it, the silly asteroid theories paraded acress DISC and NatGeo night after night always make me smile

"professing to be wise.....they became fools"


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Ice_Age_Temperature.png/300px-Ice_Age_Temperature.png

lol

is this the part where Ice core testing is all made up as a conspiracy.

Good thing Noah had enough room on his ark. hahahahahahaha

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/articles/1206371/article_images/aceinaction.jpg

we were created halfass. our life span does not exceed trees and most depend on others for support.

lol so one would have to buy into unsubstantiated claims from a fiction book to get ice core sampling correct? Sombody call the North Pole! The giant pile of real world information is false.

Now you are going on about mega-man based upon the same pile of nothing. Thats to bad, I was having a decent conversation with a rational skydiver.

again, you mindless babbling piece of shit, the data must be INTERPRETED, GOT IT? get that through your mile thick perverted empty skull

wow, you're an asshole to end all assholes, I knew that from the first post I saw from you on rx7club

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v16/i1/ice_core.asp

hahah. So they dont know how to count now? How entertaining. I'm sure there would be quite an observable difference between 6k annual seasons and 600k.

coulda, woulda, shoulda

To bad there is no evidence to support such dubious claims. Everything is a vast conspiracy against creationism says AIG/ICR. To bad for you the single paragraphs of doubt the cults provide are nothing.

ya....just like microbes morphing into human beings via random mutations over vast imaginary eons :rolleyes:

Still in denial you are related to primates I see.

my parents are god. they created me.

ya....just like microbes morphing into human beings via random mutations over vast imaginary eons :rolleyes:

Really, how about a single cell morphing/mutating into a human in nine months? Sounds even more implausible doesn't it! Your argument holds no grounds.

again, you mindless babbling piece of shit, the data must be INTERPRETED, GOT IT? get that through your mile thick perverted empty skull

wow, you're an asshole to end all assholes, I knew that from the first post I saw from you on rx7club

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v16/i1/ice_core.asp

you know, this was a good debate until you had to come along and sidetrack ti with this crap. If you cannot post here with any maturity, then please go find another thread to pollute instead of an active one like this. Seriously....no one here attacked you in such a manner that would warrant this kind of response. Put it down already

who me?

this clown isn't here to debate religion (or true science for that matter), he's a militant atheist who is here for one reason: to mock the Bible and those who believe it

Ok. Lets see your "scientific" evidence that man has ever lived for 900 years. I'm not talking about some speculative paragraph from ICR either.

all xtains would believe that Gandolf the White was a real wizard and casted real spells to fight demons and orcs, because his name and information appeared in a book.

Imagine how far down your balls would hang at 900 years old....

this clown isn't here to debate religion (or true science for that matter), he's a militant atheist who is here for one reason: to mock the Bible and those who believe it

frankly, I dont care what his reason is for being here. We were having a civil debate and you had to show up and spout off your garbage. And, since youre supposed to be in favor of the Bible, why are you still acting like that in here? Once again, exactly what purpose are you serving? You certainly arent serving God's purpose if you have to insult people along the way.

Proverbs 12:1 (NIV)

Proverbs 12

1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 10:17 (NIV)

17 He who heeds discipline shows the way to life,
but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.

that makes you stupid x 1000, and me recalcitrant at times, but neither of you are brothers on the faith

Why does it make me stupid YZF? I can admit my mistakes, take amendments, but just pure name calling.....

wrong!
when unmistakably confronted with numerous scriptures debunking your left wing, evolutionary philosophies, you dodge, duck, divert, and basically vomit all over these threads with your ongoing bullshit

Blah, blah blah .... :rolleyes:
Are you doing His work by spreading hate like this?




I really hate everything you post here

I just posted scripture on humility, so I guess you hate the bible now?

John 3:11
11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him

I'm not the one spouting "garbage" and spurious google links, that's the backyardsod, so take your rebukes elsewhere

Where did I post a "google" link?

The only one posting garbage is the ICR parrot.

Listening to a heretic like you quote scripture is like hearing it from George Michael...


I'm sure that you've heard plenty of whispering from George Micheal while you are biting down on pillows.

Again, whats this fascination with you and Homos...you keep bringing them up.

I'm not the one spouting "garbage" and spurious google links, that's the backyardsod, so take your rebukes elsewhere

dude--wake up already!

The garbage I am talking about is your insults and cursing!

You singlehandedly derailed a sane, rational, civil debate because you cannot control yourself! THAT is the garbage I spoke of! This isnt about "who's got the better source than who".....we arent talking about sources at all. As for "my rebukes", again, WAKE UP--you derailed a debate I was taking part in, that makes my "rebuke" quite relevant.

If you cannot participate with maturity, then dont participate. Youre screwing it up for the rest of us. and this is what you claimed you always wanted in here--civil debate! but when it gets here, you do your very best to disrupt it.


that makes you stupid x 1000, and me recalcitrant at times, but neither of you are brothers on the faith

I dont seem to recall in the Bible where it says that you get to choose who your "brothers" are and who they arent. Ananias was sent to be a brother to SAUL, mark....SAUL--the guy who was killing Christians for sport! You really need to get some humility.

mark, exactly what are you doing here? Whose work are you taking on with all of your nonsense? Do you REALLY think youre doing God's work when youre talking down to people like that?

Thats a serious question, how about a sincere answer?

Thats a serious question, how about a sincere answer?

As long as Marky has to admit he is wrong (even though we all know he is) a sincere (read: truthful) answer will NEVER come out of him.......Marky is physically incapable of admitting when he is wrong (even though he is frequently). You should know this better than anyone.

I disagree.

I disagree.

Can you show me even one instance where Marky has openly stated he was wrong?

I know he's admitted it publicly on multiple occasions, and in PMs, I just don't have the search-fu to prove it.

Ask Sky, he's really good at pulling up info.

nevermind openly saying "I was wrong"--what good does it do to admit being wrong if youre just as willing to be just as wrong the next time? I thought that there was supposed to be a difference between "sorry" and repentance.

As long as Marky has to admit he is wrong (even though we all know he is) a sincere (read: truthful) answer will NEVER come out of him.......Marky is physically incapable of admitting when he is wrong (even though he is frequently). You should know this better than anyone.

And I am telling you--the longer we refuse to allow mark, or anyone for that matter, the chance to make right, the deeper the hole we dig for ourselves. Dont you get it? holding onto all of this will get you where, exactly? So he doesnt admit when he's wrong very well--I doubt that anyone here or anywhere else has had as many pride issues as I do. So what if I know how he woudl typically answer that? maybe next time he would say differently, and if you dont give him that chance, youre closed-minded yourself, no? You say youre a christian, what does the Word say about forgiveness?

The longer you hang onto this stuff, the further away youre going to be from where you claim you are. thats the whole point---it doesnt matter what someone has done to you in the past! If you cannot forgive, then what good are you doing for Christ? The only thing we serve with that is ourselves.

that's not the issue, I have no problem at all admitting I'm wrong, but I have limited patience with unreasonable people

I know exactly how you feel, thats why you and I have been at this for years now. its also why I had to put it down, because all I was doing was putting myself in the grave, so to speak.

You have more patience than you give yourself credit for, we all do. We just have to use what we've been given. God already supplied us with everything we need to get through this life, we just need to put down our own baggage so we can use what He gave us.

I know he's admitted it publicly on multiple occasions, and in PMs, I just don't have the search-fu to prove it.

Ask Sky, he's really good at pulling up info.

hey man, come on now....I'm trying to stay outta that nonsense....:bigthumb:

OK, I tried searching again and from just one page of replies for the word "WRONG" (17 PAGES!) I found:

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=74445&postcount=14

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=76191&postcount=531

http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=77247&postcount=893

I didn't bother reading the context tho :P

hey man, come on now....I'm trying to stay outta that nonsense....:bigthumb:

Oh, kudos!

I was just trying to show that YZF can admit being wrong, cuz somone testifying about themselves doesn't usually mean much.

oh great, link wars...hopefully jon won't take the bait

no worries, mark....pride isnt worth salvation, at least thats the lesson I am kicking myself in the ass to learn

I'm not trying to bait anyone :O