http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22614 (see actual report in PDF form here: http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf)

Reading through the report still, but it's all pretty fucked up material. There's even firsthand accounts from 14 "high priority detainees" regarding the methods used. :mad:

I dont see problems with the methods used. How about this method used by the enemy?
http://www.aliennationreport.com/pg5.html

Its not an accident we havent had an attack on US soil for two Presidential terms. It will soon change though.

One of the poor poor people we treated badly. I know I feel bad about it.

Khalid Shaikh Muhammed

http://www.globaljihad.net/templates/default/media/imagens/7-2(200)Khalid-Shaik.jpg

Just a little info:

In 01/1996 Khalid Shaikh Muhammed escaped Qatar once the USA started to pursue him. While Khalid Shaikh Mohammed escaped to Afghanistan he renewed his contacts. through a mutual acquaintance - Rasul Sayyaf by meeting in Bora Bora first with Mohammed Atef , the military chief of operations of Al Qaeda , and later with Osama Bin Laden . During the meeting with Osama Bin Laden , which took place in mid 1996, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed introduced the Bojinka Plot to the two chief activists. After some looking into the Bojinka Plot it was adopted as a base to a layout of The 9/11 . Although Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was accepted by the Al Qaeda he continued to act independently until the double attack on American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on 08/07/1998 . This incident convinced Khalid Shaikh Mohammed of the seriousness of Al Qaeda and he became a committed member and one of its’ chiefs.



In Afganistan, beginning of 1999, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed met Ramzi Binalshibh from Al Qaedas’ Hamburg Cell and since then started to work on The 9/11 attack on the “Twins”, New York, USA. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the operator of Mohamed Atta while financing came mainly from Khalids’ cousin Ali Abdul Aziz Ali .

According to intelligence sources Khalid Shaikh Mohammed coordinated the bomb strike of Richard Reid -the “Shoe Bomber” - on 12/22/2001 on flight 63 from Paris to Miami, USA.



Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the commander of the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl in Karachi, Pakistan while working on a report about Al Qaeda . Khalid Shaikh Mohammed - according to his own statement - murdered Daniel Pearl with his own hands on 01/23/2002.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the terrorist beheading methods. Still, just because we aren't killing people doesn't mean our methods are necessarily just.

"While being held in this standing position some of the detainees were allowed to defecate in a bucket. A guard would come to release their hands from the bar or hook in the ceiling so that they could sit on the bucket. None of them, however, were allowed to clean themselves afterwards. Others were made to wear a garment that resembled a diaper. This was the case for Mr. Bin Attash in his fourth place of detention. However, he commented that on several occasions the diaper was not replaced so he had to urinate and defecate on himself while shackled in the prolonged stress standing position. Indeed, in addition to Mr. Bin Attash, three other detainees specified that they had to defecate and urinate on themselves and remain standing in their own bodily fluids."

No one can sit there and tell me that something like this is designed to get "vital information" out of people, nor tell me that such a method is essential to keeping us "safe and free." I can understand if you've got beef and want revenge for some asshole savage(s) senselessly murdering, but there's still proper channels and ways to handle such that we failed to follow.

The Army Field Manual for Human Intelligence Collector Operations explicitly prohibits torture or cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment or punishment.... To make this more imaginable and understandable to our soldiers...we have included in the Field Manual specific prohibitions. There's eight of them: interrogators may not force a detainee to be naked, perform sexual acts or pose in a sexual manner; they cannot use hoods or place sacks over a detainee's head or use duct tape over his eyes; they cannot beat or electrically shock or burn them or inflict other forms of physical pain—any form of physical pain; they may not use water boarding, they may not use hypothermia or treatment which will lead to heat injury; they will not perform mock executions; they may not deprive detainees of the necessary food, water and medical care; and they may not use dogs in any aspect of interrogations....

And yet, the report lists these things, many used in combination of each other:
* Suffocation by water poured over a cloth placed over the nose and mouth...
* Prolonged stress standing position, naked, held with the arms extended and chained above the head...
* Beatings by use of a collar held around the detainees' neck and used to forcefully bang the head and body against the wall...
* Beating and kicking, including slapping, punching, kicking to the body and face...
* Confinement in a box to severely restrict movement...
* Prolonged nudity...this enforced nudity lasted for periods ranging from several weeks to several months...
* Sleep deprivation...through use of forced stress positions (standing or sitting), cold water and use of repetitive loud noises or music...
* Exposure to cold temperature...especially via cold cells and interrogation rooms, and...use of cold water poured over the body or...held around the body by means of a plastic sheet to create an immersion bath with just the head out of water.
* Prolonged shackling of hands and/or feet...
* Threats of ill-treatment, to the detainee and/or his family...
* Forced shaving of the head and beard...
* Deprivation/restricted provision of solid food from 3 days to 1 month after arrest...

If anything, after going through these things one would only be even more determined to want to fight against whoever put them through it all...

The whole point of treatment like that is to completely break down the prisoner of any sense of self worth or thought of survival and hold that bone in front of them that is an end to the treatment. Give us the info and we give you your rights as a human being back.


War is hell. What you dont seem to take into consideration is the people who are being detained are suspected of either plotting to commit or committing mass murder. We execute serial killers in this country with no problems whatsoever and those are people who may have killed 8-10 maybe even 20-30 people. What these detainees are getting is a walk in the park compared to the needle or the chair.

War is hell, yes.

Torture is unAmerican.

Ok well maybe if we ask them real nice they will tell us what we want to hear. Get real.

The end justifies the means?

Our current administration is unAmerican.

Our current administration is unAmerican.

Is there that much of a contrast between the current administration and the Bush administration?

Unfortunately, both yes and no.

Hey, remember that comment I said that went along the lines of "just because we aren't killing them?"

Whoops, I was wrong.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/dic/index.asp

PDF Report here: http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf

"Human Rights First's new report provides the first comprehensive accounting of the U.S. government's handling of the nearly 100 cases of detainees who have died in U.S. custody since 2002"

From the actual report:
The Cases to Date

The cases behind these numbers have names and faces. This report describes more than 20 cases in detail, to illustrate both the failures in investigation and in accountability. Among the cases is that of Manadel al-Jamadi, whose death became public during the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal when photographs depicting prison guards giving the thumbs-up over his body were released; to date, no U.S. military or intelligence official has been punished criminally in connection with Jamadi’s death.

The cases also include that of Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former Iraqi general beaten over days by U.S. Army, CIA and other non-military forces, stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord, and suffocated to death. In the recently concluded trial of a
low-level military officer charged in Mowhoush’s death, the officer received a written reprimand, a fine, and 60 days with his movements limited to his work, home, and church.

And they include cases like that of Nagem Sadoon Hatab, in which investigative failures have made accountability impossible. Hatab, a 52-year-old Iraqi, was killed while in U.S. custody at a holding camp close to Nasiriyah. Although a U.S. Army medical examiner found that Hatab had died of strangulation, the evidence that would have been required to secure accountability for his death – Hatab’s body – was rendered unusable in court. Hatab’s internal organs were left exposed on an airport tarmac for hours; in the
blistering Baghdad heat, the organs were destroyed; the throat bone that would have supported the Army medical examiner’s findings of strangulation was never found.

Although policing crimes in wartime is always challenging, government investigations into deaths in custody since 2002 have been unacceptable. The cases discussed in this report include incidents where deaths went unreported, witnesses were never interviewed, evidence was lost or mishandled, and record-keeping was scattershot. They also include investigations that were cut short as a result of decisions by commanders – who are given the authority to decide whether and to what extent to pursue an investigation – to rely on incomplete inquiries, or to discharge a suspect before an investigation can be completed. Given the extent of the non-reporting, under-reporting, and lax record keeping to date, it is likely that the statistics reported here, if anything, under-count the number of deaths.

Again, I wonder how detainment and torture in these manners actually have managed to keep us safe or make us any better at times then the very ones we wage war against.

Ok well maybe if we ask them real nice they will tell us what we want to hear. Get real.

The thing of it is, torture vics tell you what you WANT to hear.

The thing of it is, torture vics tell you what you WANT to hear.

Agreed. And in many of the cases listed in these reports, sometimes that's not even enough...

Have you seen body of Lies, with Leo DiCaprio and Russell Crowe? They make some good points about torture.

You know that using Scopolamine, Sodium Pentothal, Temazepam etc to induce talking is all considered torture? What method(s) do you suggest we use?

Also you guys talk like you know torture doesnt work. That is based off of...? Movies you've watched? Your time as a CIA agent?

Also you guys talk like you know torture doesnt work. That is based off of...? Movies you've watched? Your time as a CIA agent?

No, my knowledge is based off of research and other people's time as government agents... What about your knowledge on the subject? I bet Jack Bauer is your source.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkanFveaCn0

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032802066.html?wprss=rss_print/asection

When CIA officials subjected their first high-value captive, Abu Zubaida, to waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods, they were convinced that they had in their custody an al-Qaeda leader who knew details of operations yet to be unleashed, and they were facing increasing pressure from the White House to get those secrets out of him.

The methods succeeded in breaking him, and the stories he told of al-Qaeda terrorism plots sent CIA officers around the globe chasing leads.

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/usls/2007/statement/313/index.htm

”Fifteen former interrogators and intelligence officials with more than 350 years collective field experience have declared that torture is an unlawful, ineffective and counterproductive way to gather intelligence, in a statement of principles released today.

The group of former interrogators and intelligence officials released a set of principles to guide effective interrogation practices at the conclusion of a meeting convened by Human Rights First last week in Washington. The meeting participants served with the CIA, the FBI and the U.S. military."

I will admit that I don't really have any personal alternatives to suggest, outside of the intelligence community doing their job and actually sharing information they have with other branches rather then keeping the "good shit" to themselves.

No, my knowledge is based off of research and other people's time as government agents... What about your knowledge on the subject? I bet Jack Bauer is your source.


lol @ the 24 stab



Lets just agree to disagree. You post links from William Colby claiming to be anti-torture. He turned left late in his life but dont let that confuse you. Did your research ever lead you to look into Operation Phoenix? Colby was responsible for the rape/torture/murder of over 20,000 people.


http://www.serendipity.li/cia/operation_phoenix.htm


Next time do some research on the subject before searching "CIA" and "Torture" on YouTube.

Hah, you caught me on the youtube search bit. And I'll also admit that I had no clue about Operation Phoenix till you brought it up.

Agree to disagree, it is. Even if you're wrong. :D

*bows in respect*

Interesting bit about William Colby, He was openly against water torture and died by drowning after collapsing in his canoe and falling into the water. Funny how life works huh?