ok, admittedly a hungry bear with a toothache would fit the description of monster without religion needing to be involved.

but I know where one religion claims to have created a couple of angry bears specifically to murder children.

those are not the kind of monsters I am talking about though, I am talking about a monster who can, day after day, go to work and torture witches all day long and then go home to his wife and children with the satisfaction of a job well done.

a person who enjoys doing evil to people because he KNOWS they are MORE evil and absolutely deserve the worst he can do to them.

a person who considers the most brutal torture imaginable to be just, even inadequate, punishment.


how can such a monster be snatched from the jaws of religion and restored to humanity ?

Good post.
I wish I knew. Perhaps Gitmo exposes both sides. This worship is to a flag. Where we believe a lessor evil holds a greater.

Might is right. Isn't fair but its the pattern I see in life.

I don't think religion creating monsters is so much the case as people taking religion a step too far and changing scripture to suit their own thoughts. Especially when it comes to Christianity and Islam, people do evil to those they think are evil because they think it doesn't matter. I believe that's more an error in interpretation due to a lack of knowledge, history, and maturity in faith or understanding. Just because of hypocrisy and blindness of the few you can't judge a whole group, and I think that's the basic misconception people have when it comes to Christians especially, that they aren't hating on groups of people as a whole. Love the sinner, hate the sin baby. I think it was Mark Twain that said "Don't let school get in the way of your education." The same could be said about religion getting in the way of your faith.

I don't think religion creates the monsters, I think the monsters use religion as a way to justify their acts, whether it's just to themselves or to others.

Take Osama bin Laden... I really don't think he's a Muslim in any way, shape, or form. I think he simply uses it as a rally cry, to make it an "us against them" type of thing... The same way Hitler used the Jews... He took all the problems of post-Depression Germany, pointed to the Jews, said they were the ones to blame, and used it as a tool.

In a way, Bush is trying to use Christianity as his blanket, although he doesn't really have the charisma the other two had in their battle cries.

I don't think religion creates the monsters, I think the monsters use religion as a way to justify their acts, whether it's just to themselves or to others.

Take Osama bin Laden... I really don't think he's a Muslim in any way, shape, or form. I think he simply uses it as a rally cry, to make it an "us against them" type of thing... The same way Hitler used the Jews... He took all the problems of post-Depression Germany, pointed to the Jews, said they were the ones to blame, and used it as a tool.


Good post.

I don't think religion creating monsters is so much the case as people taking religion a step too far and changing scripture to suit their own thoughts.

I don't think religion creates the monsters, I think the monsters use religion as a way to justify their acts

a major problem I have with that notion is that it denies the monsters SINCERITY in their beliefs.

it also rather strongly says that the base religion that the monsters embrace does NOT advocate sending "sinners" to Hell.


neither of which do I believe to be the case.

rather I see the base religion as ORDERING people to be the monsterous tools of a hatefilled master who MUST be served with passion.

the religion provides a cover set of behaviours that serve to hide the monstrosity from normal people so the religious monsters are not shot on sight as the terrorists they are.

the "good" religious people simply adopt the secret identity and entirely discard the actual vengeful godliness of their chosen religion.

sincerly.

LOL Crusades


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Melisende-Psalter_f9v.jpg/414px-Melisende-Psalter_f9v.jpg

History will repeat itself. I'm still waiting for this one to come around again

Blah

Good post, I agree

Blah

I agree.

Blah

Again, do you actually belive the stuff you type? O_o
Thats some messed up stuff.

The same way Hitler used the Jews... He took all the problems of post-Depression Germany, pointed to the Jews, said they were the ones to blame, and used it as a tool.

the point is not how evil hitler was, the point is how easy it was to get good christian germans to turn into justified mass murderers.

hitler skillfully manipulated the levers already planted there by christianity.

just as osama manipulates the levers installed by islam.
{I noted that osama cunningly waited until someone with the right christian levers to be pulled was in the white house to execute 911. that worked.}

Again, do you actually belive the stuff you type? O_o

do I claim to Know the one true unquestionable sole TRUTH of the matter ?

no.

it's more like I saw a little sparkle of truth in the snow and when I tried to pick it up it turned out to be part of a neclace, a series of truths strung to each other


Thats some messed up stuff.

osama isn't the monster I am talking about, I am talking about the person who proudly sews up the best suicide vests in town, regretting that she is inelegable to wear one because of her sex.
doing her best.

hitler skillfully manipulated the levers already planted there by christianity.

Yes, because when Jesus said "Love your Neighbor" it's so easy to tell he really said "Kill the jews, never mind that I am one, just kill them all!"

And in The Law handed down to Moses, the one that said "Do not Murder," it really seemed to mean "But it's OK to murder the Jews, they are no longer my chosen people, and are subhuman beasts"

The Word of God itself refutes Hitler's claims.

Even such gems as "The Jews killed Jesus, now we kill them" (Ignore the part of the bible that said He gave up his life only of His own accord, and that none could take it from Him without His say so, the Jews must have added that after the fact to save face)

Never mind Martin Luther's influence on Hitler's hatred.


The people's ignorance of God's Word is what allowed the people to be manipulated so easily. Just like the crusades.

The monster isn't just the ringleaders (Hitler)
The monster is every person that went along with the evil agenda, unquestioning, killing to save their own hide, or finally being able to act out their sick, aggressive desires.

Just like $100TII said.

I just feel there's more ignorance on the agnostic aspect of the whole thing, living in such an "enlightened" city, people sure get their facts screwed up in their debates and such. The Gospels never state that you should kill someone whose beliefs are different from yours, and never advocate hate. Paul preached welcoming those lost in sin into your home and showing them love and kindness as witnessing, not killing and shunning. He said it's better to show your faith and love to those not of the same faith than to another of the same lost in sin or wrapped up in self-fulfilling interpretations of the Law or scripture. I for one don't hate anyone, just because I disapprove what one person might or might not do doesn't mean I approve of condemnation to Hell, I find that to be a terrible fate that I wouldn't wish on anyone, and it doesn't mean that I find them to be less of a person than me. Just because a few in the Church have lost their way doesn't mean they're bad people either, just lost, and that's it. More knowledge on basic beliefs and structure would illustrate (at least for Christianity) that nobody is advocating hate or violence, but love and acceptance to bring others closer to Christ.

Paul preached welcoming those lost in sin into your home and showing them love and kindness

Correct. And if the Bible was just Paul, then maybe it would be a better world.

Unfortunately, religion is more than just Paul and his preachings. It's about 66 or so books of other people thoughts and translations.

And then it's about the Koran and other so called 'god's works' that is thrown in the mix.

Jesus said "kill them all!"

but jesus DID say that, in the bible, when he returns with his sword of fire and army of angels to kill humanity.

Moses, the one that said "Do not Murder,"

moses, who DID personally MURDER a man, chosen for his personal purity of spirit ?

it really seemed to mean "But it's OK to murder the Jews, they are no longer my chosen people, and are subhuman beasts"

no, that would be "slaughter without compassion or remorse everyone currently living in the "promised land" because they are subhuman beasts."

sorry, ran out of time, for posting.

I don't think religion creating monsters is so much the case as people taking religion a step too far and changing scripture to suit their own thoughts.

not bad, but too limited, incomplete. and therefor misleading.

first look at the CHOICE of scripture to change to meet an independant agenda, the abrahamic stuff is the first choice.
obviously because the scripture is the most commonly used so everybody is already familiar with the concepts.

but take into account that it IS the most popular BECAUSE it is easily used by Leaders to whip the populace into a useful frenzy.

it presets the mind to
1 obey authority
2 it is GOOD to murder as directed by authority.
3 authority, AND GUILT, are transferrable.
4 EVERYBODY is guilty.

so the basics are already inherently established by the scripture of choice, leaving just the specifics to be penciled in by the designated Authority.

which is made simple by the style of writing used in the scripture.

if it were clothes the fit would be way loose, with plenty of stretch.

and it talks LOTS about authorised, and therefor inherently Good, mass killings of people who would otherwise be considered innocents.





Especially when it comes to Christianity and Islam, people do evil to those they think are evil because they think it doesn't matter.

noo, because they think it is GOOD, a positive act to lessen the evil that god has to look at.

yuor statement seems based on assuming insincerity in the monsters, people burned witches because it was a GOOD thing to do, the screams of the dying were PRAISE to god, proving his will was being done.

take the kids, so they can learn early that the screams of the rightously dying were a praiseworthy thing that THEY should want to make happen when they grew up.

I believe that's more an error in interpretation due to a lack of knowledge, history, and maturity in faith or understanding.

but your interpretation would have got you in trouble when it was interpreted to say "Burn the witches !" by everybody except witches.

Just because of hypocrisy and blindness of the few you can't judge a whole group, and I think that's the basic misconception people have when it comes to Christians especially, that they aren't hating on groups of people as a whole.

look up "thugee" for an example of religion that failed to provide its monsters with a public face.

you probably HAVE to look it up because they are not around any more, since they came to the attention of another religion that has no problem 'executing sinners'.



Love the sinner, hate the sin baby. I think it was Mark Twain that said "Don't let school get in the way of your education." The same could be said about religion getting in the way of your faith.

sorry, I see the false distinction between religion and faith {I do know what you are talking about} as being as reprehensible a fabricated lie as the distinction between "macro" and "micro" Evolution.

The only problem with blaming modern Christians for reprehensible acts committed by witch hunters is that it's about as weak an argument as blaming a southern white man for what happened over the course of this country's history with slavery. I had nothing to do with either, so why should I have to suffer for people using false doctrine for their own gains? I've never once been preached hate, violence or anything of the like. People who do are OBVIOUSLY misinformed and don't understand the point of the Gospels. Jesus transcends the Law, while the Law is still important. The 10 Commandments are the most important Law according the Gospels, and nowhere in those are hate and violence advocated. Your obvious blindness is based on sour feelings and malicious thought.

I do agree that religion creates monsters of a sort, but I don't practice in any organized religion. Religion is man's change of scripture and doctrine to suit his own needs, and that's why wars are fought and people end up dead. Faith has everything to do with the Word of God and if you are strong enough in your faith then false teachings aren't going to phase you.

Also with witch hunters, is at that point in time, the leaders of this country were not practicing Christians, they acknowledged a "higher power" but didn't come out with a strict definition of that power.

I have no problem defending the general goodness of well-behaved Christians, but it's obvious some people just want to keep with their generalizations and not keep an open mind. That's "enlightened" society for you.

The only problem with blaming modern Christians for reprehensible acts committed by witch hunters is that it's about as weak an argument as blaming a southern white man for what happened over the course of this country's history with slavery.

thing is, the southern white man who kept slaves was a christian and practiced slavery with the full approval of the same exact scriptures you use today to denounce it.

as did the german witch burners.

so, "I had nothing to do with either," is not a true statement, you share the bible with them.



so why should I have to suffer for people using false doctrine for their own gains?

to say that you MUST assume that EVERYBODY was faking their faith, that the entire christian foundation of europe was a complete fabrication for its entire existance until YOUR correct doctrine finally showed up.

and they KNEW it, all of them.

and did all that horrible stuff just out of sheer spite ?



I've never once been preached hate, violence or anything of the like.

yet god DOES in the bible, search "hate" in a concordance, god hates and he punishes as a response to that hate, he has directly ordered his people to punish in his name.

did jesus say god was WRONG for ordering the deaths that he did ?





People who do are OBVIOUSLY misinformed and don't understand the point of the Gospels.

as you understand them.



Jesus transcends the Law, while the Law is still important. The 10 Commandments are the most important Law according the Gospels, and nowhere in those are hate and violence advocated.

the entire point of the commandments is to establish exactly what god hates and will punish.

the bible goes on at length on HOW to execute those people who god hates for doing things he hates.


Your obvious blindness is based on sour feelings and malicious thought.
it's obvious some people just want to keep with their generalizations and not keep an open mind.

a good place to wrap this post up. :D

what my blind eyes see is one scripture in a constant state of change as the interpretations of it change with each passing generation, what I don't see is that EVERYBODY has always got it wrong until now.

how lucky you must be to get to be alive when they finally got it right after all the centuries of careful studies of the perfect word of god getting it so obviously wrong. :bigthumb:

you may think that, but you don't know the Quran

Have you read it yet? No. So, your opinion means nothing.

just as there are very few who follow the Bible in practice, so there are few Muslims who truly follow what the Quran clearly says:

"So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term, for God loveth the righteous. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)."

"The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God ... God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they are commanded to worship but One God ..."

Oh, no, not this shit again. You are taking it out of context. Just like the other 5 million times it's been quoted.

If you don't stop your insanity, I'm banning you again.

Oh, no, not this shit again. You are taking it out of context. Just like the other 5 million times it's been quoted.

If you don't stop your insanity, I'm banning you again.

So it's OK for czarofar and honegod to do it, but not YZF?

:P

So it's OK for czarofar and honegod to do it, but not YZF?

:P

um, tofu, czar and honegod dont make a practice of discussing the Quran, so why are you saying that they take the Quran out of context?

Besides, it has been shown too many times to count that marky's only exposure to the Quran is, if I recall right, a six week course on the matter. If you took nothing more than a six week course on the bible, how educated would you be about its contents?

There you have it.

geez, some people willfully bury their heads in the sandhttp://www.theforumlounge.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1964&stc=1&d=1170261031

honegod butchers the scriptures with out of context snippets,

you want the IMMEDIATE context, I use the context of the whole bible.

I use the context of the whole bible.

really? I've never seen it


heh, we know.
you really ought to TRY to read it someday, I'm sure folks would gladly help you with the grownup words. { ;) }

you don't know the Bible...Do you? Recite a passage from the book of Ecclesiastes without looking it up.

Do you? Recite a passage from the book of Ecclesiastes without looking it up.

That one is EASY,

Basically, the entire song, there is a season for everything under heaven? :P

Or basically anything that starts out "Vanity of Vanities!"

:P

"I thought to myself, 'Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.' Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind. For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief"Cut and paste... you've never used a semicolon correctly in your life. :)

my memory sucks

;)

based on how many times you get caught telling different versions of each lie you try to spread, it's already known that your memory sucks....:bigthumb:

my post in smacktalk wasnt directed at you either....but since you think you have the right to harass people, why should I care about posting in a thread that I have already taken part in??

thanks for playing

you couldnt beat me with an instruction manual....

You guys should make one big thread in SMACKTALK and agree to only talk to each other there :P

where have you been? parasite jonnie is a disease

you say that like he's automatically gonna back you no matter what....truth is, he has tried to correct your attitude and actions numerous times and you simply ignore hm every time. For example, he had plenty to say about your total lack of compassion, which definitely goes against the Word, and you did nothing but make excuses why you shouldnt follow his advice.

if you dont give a shit enough to listen to him when he corrects you, dont pretend he's got your back when it comes to me. That is the problem with you--you think this is about you and me, when in reality it is supposed to be about God, or at least thats what you claim every time you claim that the bible is your one doctrine, isnt it?

tofu isn't gonna back you

no human being would, and certainly not God

again, here you go again making this about your side or mine....when in reality, according to your own claimed doctrine, you should be about glorifying GOD, not yourself.

Thanks for proving my point for me...:bigthumb:

oh, and no one asked tofu to back me--least of all me. he's a big boy now and he doesnt need me or you to tell him how to think. But two facts remain-

1--you still refuse to listen to him when he corrects your actions....nothing but excuses in reply...

2--the only one looking for him to back them is you. Again, against the bible in any respect, because you try so hard to make this about you. you fail

you don't know who I listen to, psycho jonnie, do you read my PMs?

get outta here you worthless piece of trash

no, but we all see your self-serving replies in the threads when you respond to him, and we also see your behavior. If you REALLY took a rebuke seriously from him, why would your wrong behavior continue in that thread without so much as a pause for breath?

CLEARLY, what you listen to in such a case would show in your actions....I suggest you go back and re-read "if your brother sins against you...." another time or three. If he rebukes you, and you admit your wrong, but go right back the next minute and continue that wrong, you have NOT listened to his rebuke....according to the bible.

again, actions speak louder than words, and your actions prove that its always all about you, marky....fail

I rule youAnd this forum rules you... up bright and early to get in a few dozen more posts, huh? :roll:

I rule you

this is the result of tofu's successful rebukes on you in regards to your lack of compassion and completely inappropriate arrogance???

And you wonder why no one thinks you listen to them....:asshole:

you already have shown plenty how you dont

fools always reject the truth

so thats it??? When tofu tells you the truth about your actions, and you reject that truth by spitting out your excuse, then continuing on in sin, that makes you the fool??

Thanks for clearing that up!!:asshole:

I was not trying to, nor would I have to be, in order for this observation to be factual, so shut the fuck up. Fact is, you dont respect anything or anyone but your own self-perceived greatness...and that is contrary to everything the bible stands for. And post like these from you prove it.

youre a fake, marky, a fraud, a phony in the purest sense.

die of cancer jonniedie of cancer jonnie *skip*

die of cancer jonnie *skip*

die of cancer jonnie *skip*

die of...

coming from a piece of shit like yourself, I reject your critique

die of cancer jonnie


monsters.

as they fill up with god all their humanity leaks away.

this is not a happy thing. :(

:bowdown: :screwyou:

coming from a piece of shit like yourself, I reject your critique

die of cancer jonnie

yeah, well you reject Jesus telling you to pray for your enemies too...and you reject tofu when he rebukes your pathetic lack of compassion and overdeveloped sense of arrogant self-worth....so reject me all you like, it puts me in good company.:bigthumb:

I think Mark is actually an agent of the devil.

without hopeThere's always hope that a bus, a plane, an oil tanker, or a small asteroid will crash into your house and straight through your head...

What's wrong Mark, wish you had a Coke machine too?

Psycho.

Tell me Mark... how do you escape from a straight jacket?

Are your meds still working?

You wish. :roll:

monsters.

as they fill up with god all their humanity leaks away.

this is not a happy thing. :(

:bowdown: :screwyou:

the above seems a self evident fact, and fully on topic to boot

on the other hand, I'll bet

I would have to say after this little display that marky has proved your point honegod.

I would have to say after this little display that marky has proved your point honegod.

So you're saying YZF is full of God?

So you're saying YZF is full of God?

clearly the last wisps of humanity have all but given up the fight for his soul, the hatefullness of god fills him to overflowing, I am glad to have a monitor screen between us, I don't like getting that stuff on me.

how 'bout ... "Love them ALL, let god sort them out."
naah, you're right, that's certainly not in the bible.

shouldn't yours be "love the one, hate ALL the others." ?