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Join in on this Discussion and see the pictures. Click here-> : Research shows ethanol isn't worth the energy


BATMAN
07-25-2005, 08:10 AM
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/es/etb/cetc/cetc01/images/ethanol_fuel_diagram_french.gif

Farmers, businesses and state officials — including many in Nebraska — are investing millions of dollars in ethanol and biofuel plants as renewable energy sources, but a new study says the alternative fuels burn more energy than they produce.

Supporters of ethanol and other biofuels contend they burn cleaner than fossil fuels, reduce U.S. dependence on oil and give farmers another market to sell their produce.

But researchers at Cornell University and the University of California-Berkeley say it takes 29 percent more fossil energy to turn corn into ethanol than the amount of fuel the process produces. For switch grass, a warm weather perennial grass found in the Great Plains and eastern North America United States, it takes 45 percent more energy and for wood, 57 percent.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/images/cornstalk_with_pump.gif

It takes 27 percent more energy to turn soybeans into biodiesel fuel and more than double the energy produced is needed to do the same to sunflower plants, the study found.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's energy security, its agriculture, the economy, or the environment," according to the study by Cornell's David Pimentel and Berkeley's Tad Patzek. They conclude the country would be better off investing in solar, wind and hydrogen energy.

The researchers included such factors as the energy used in producing the crop, costs that were not used in other studies that supported ethanol production, said Pimentel.

The study also omitted $3 billion in state and federal government subsidies that go toward ethanol production in the United States each year, payments that mask the true costs, Pimentel said.

Ethanol is an additive blended with gasoline to reduce auto emissions and increase gas' octane levels. Its use has grown rapidly since 2004, when the federal government banned the use of the additive MTBE to enhance the cleaner burning of fuel. About 3.6 billion gallons of ethanol were produced last year in the United States, according to the Renewable Fuels Association, an ethanol trade group.

This year, Nebraska's 11 ethanol plants are expected to produce more than 500 million gallons of ethanol.

The ethanol industry claims that using 8 billion gallons of ethanol a year will allow refiners to use 2 billion fewer barrels of oil. The oil industry disputes that, saying the ethanol mandate would have negligible impact on oil imports.

Ethanol producers dispute Pimentel and Patzek's findings, saying the data is outdated and doesn't take into account profits that offset costs.

Michael Brower, director of community and government relations at SUNY's College of Environmental Science and Forestry, points to reports by the Energy and Agriculture departments that have shown the ethanol produced delivers at least 60 percent more energy the amount used in production. The college has worked extensively on producing ethanol from hardwood trees.

Biodiesel can be used in any diesel engine with few or no modifications. It is often blended with petroleum diesel to reduce the propensity to gel in cold weather.

jhammons01
07-25-2005, 09:45 AM
i've heard this argument before and I am willing to listen.....btu everytime I hear It. There is not enough information provided to convicne me

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 12:19 PM
wow that was a surprise

NOT

i've been saying that shit for at least a year in the rx7club lounge

any kind of alternative energy source, reliant on modern industry for production, that has no dormant stockpile somewhere out in nature, will inevitably show a net energy LOSS in the long run. its thermodynamics people, you can't get more energy out of less.

jhammons01
07-25-2005, 01:00 PM
Yes but if you use meth to burn in any farm equipment how are you usuing fossil fuels......that is where I get lost. If I am a farmer and I am growing corn to produce meth. Would I not accept payment in a form of a large tank of meth fuel for my equipment??

I'm not arguing with you AZ, I truely would like that answered in some form.

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 01:13 PM
modern industry is heavily reliant fossil fuels

where did that farm equipment come from?

stuff had to be shipped to a factory - fossil fuels
assembly line manufacture - fossil fuels
raw material harvesting - fossil fuels
hell building the factory itself - large investment of fossil fuels

hell, what do people eat? modern agriculture is based off modern industry. we maintain high yields by using modern farming equipment and methods. alot of pesticides, tractors, various machines... these all were created, maintained or run using a variety of fossil fuels.

jhammons01
07-25-2005, 01:23 PM
OK......today that exist. but if we ramped up production of ethynol ( I said meth but...)would these large peices of equipment still continue to burn Fossol Deisel (just call it desiel for teh sake of discussion)?? If we converted the equipment current burning deisel along the supply line of Ethynol To Ethynaol would the above statement still be true?

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 01:26 PM
yes

you can't maintain ethanol production

when all industry is based off ethanol

and it also has to produce ethanol

that would be getting energy for free. it's impossible.

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 01:27 PM
the only reason we've been able to 'move up' in terms of technology

is because there was a vast vault of stored energy sitting in the ground

all we have to do is dig it up and refine it

anytime you have to create something to get energy, you will inevitably use more energy creating it then you can get out of it.

so the only real sources of energy are:

solar
wind
hydro

and any of the depletable stores:
natural gas
coal
oil

u get the point

jhammons01
07-25-2005, 01:28 PM
I don't know about that.......something just seems off to me. Corn is cheap to grow. gotta be something I'm missing. Soybean is even cheaper and the yeilds for Ethynol is greater out of Soybeans.

Alex-7
07-25-2005, 01:28 PM
A thread without boobs?

jhammons01
07-25-2005, 01:32 PM
A thread without boobs?
What were we thinkin?

$100T2
07-25-2005, 01:43 PM
I don't know about that.......something just seems off to me. Corn is cheap to grow. gotta be something I'm missing. Soybean is even cheaper and the yeilds for Ethynol is greater out of Soybeans.

Cheap to grow, yes. Cheap to process into fuel, no.

If something costs $5 to grow and $5 to process, that's $10, right?

If something else costs $7 to grow and $2 to process, that's $9.

Therefore, just because it's cheap to grow doesn't necessarily mean it's the best idea.

I'm just waiting until my car can run on banana peels and half empty cans of soda.

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 02:13 PM
I don't know about that.......something just seems off to me. Corn is cheap to grow. gotta be something I'm missing. Soybean is even cheaper and the yeilds for Ethynol is greater out of Soybeans.

basically its like this

you use oil to

create everything needed to grow the crops
and then convert it into ethanol for energy

vs

just taking that oil and using it for power directly

which is going to produce more energy?

obviously the more direct method, because there's inefficiencies in every process.

91lx
07-25-2005, 02:22 PM
why is e85 cheaper than 87 octane if it costs more to produce and has an octane rating of 105 ? or is that just bs ?

reg = 2.049... e85 = 1.849 a gallon locally.

91lx
07-25-2005, 02:35 PM
oh so using corn, etc... for fuel will create a deficit between energy used to create it -vs- energy the product produces? i guess that is important but as long as it gives people here jobs and its cheaper than regular fuel (and they dont MAKE us use it)... :gives:

ComradeGiant
07-25-2005, 02:37 PM
Biodiesel and ethanol are a good supplement to the fuel we already have, but can never replace it.

I figure if we get enough hippies and enviro-bandwagon yuppies using biodiesel it will extend useable gasoline supply for the rest of us.

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 02:37 PM
create a deficit between energy used to create it -vs- energy the product produces?

any kind of alternative fuel that relies on the current energy infrastructure to create it is subject to your above statement.

when it comes to energy its impossible to get more out of less, basically.

the trick is to get it out of something that already did all the work making it for you naturally.

91lx
07-25-2005, 02:39 PM
we always have solar energy i guess. at least during the daytime

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 02:41 PM
solar, wind and hydro are the only things that will work in the long run

or some kind of sci fi style hydrogen harvesting / asteroid mining / etc.

wnat to know a neat fact? the energy required to make one solar panel will be earned back by that panel after 112 years of continuous operation. we're all fucked!!! jajajajajaja

Supper
07-25-2005, 02:45 PM
some of the largest wind farms in the US are 3 hours away from where I live.

They put a shitload of em around Wyoming, not because of how fast the wind is, but because of how little population we have and because we have the most predictable, steady wind year round.

The wind farm they just built a couple years ago north of my hometown is slated to tripple in size over the next three years about.

So not only is Wyo one of the largest producers of non-renewable resources, we are also now one of the largest producers of wind energy.


Oh... and that bullshit the power company says "Check here to pay $5 to garantee your power comes from renewable resources." is bullshit. They can't say where your power comes from, it all just gets pumped into the grid.

So, if you want to make money off the power company, set yourself up with a shitload of wind generators, start pumping juice into the grid, once you put enough power into the grid to surpass what you use out of the grid, the power company is required by law to pay you for that surpluss.

ComradeGiant
07-25-2005, 02:46 PM
Geothermal is probably the best of the current crop of non-fossil fuel sources. And it still requires a huge initial energy input.

aznpoopy
07-25-2005, 02:47 PM
you need to upload an avatar before my head explodes.

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