I don't know if it's propaganda or if it's just plain ignorance on my part, but I feel that some muslim groups are going too far and taking their religious beliefs way too seriously. They get upset at any little thing said about Allah or Muhammad and they are quick to blow themselves up to kill as many infadels as possible.

I say, let's fight those bastards whereever they are until most are dead and let's not be nice or politically correct about this. I say we start with Pakistan and root out all those bastards out.

How do you guys feel?
What would be your strategy?

No need to kill anyone. We should just stop feeling the need to apologize every time we hurt their feelings. I think that that's partly to blame in terms of their reactions.

Turn the sand box into a giant glass skating rink...lots and lots of bombs, all at once, level the whole place so no one can retaliate. Except israel, we will spare israel b/c they're cool.
(lets see how many people get pissed off at this devil's advocate view)

Should we have a holy war?

Yes,

how bout we just leave the giant sand box and let them destroy themselves.

I declare a Jihad on your ass!

This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.'

With people reading this hsit like GOSPEL, no wonder the israelis are so full of shit!

Theres a disease. It's rampant and has always been the foundation of the human race fucking themselves up. The disease is characterized by an unreal level of ignorance and notions of self-superiority. Does everyone realise what ensues when a group of people fatally OVERestimate their intelligence? You end up with things like: the bush admin, saddam husseins, isra-el, nazis... Is it possible for anyone to learn and practice humility when the 'machine' is gassing people up to over-step their roles in this life?

so are you saying that the Jews being called the 'chosen people' is outdated info?

so is nazi germany doomed to brutal destruction then?

basically, this "holy war" has already been going on for quite some time now.....some are just waking up about it in recent years due to world events, but this one is as old as ever, really

If these people knew that god doesn't exsist, there would be no war? haha right.

We go to war because we are idiots, people. It's the best male drama that you can find.

I don't know if it's propaganda or if it's just plain ignorance on my part, but I feel that some muslim groups are going too far and taking their religious beliefs way too seriously. They get upset at any little thing said about Allah or Muhammad and they are quick to blow themselves up to kill as many infadels as possible.

I say, let's fight those bastards whereever they are until most are dead and let's not be nice or politically correct about this. I say we start with Pakistan and root out all those bastards out.

How do you guys feel?
What would be your strategy?

You know, this idea isn't original.


Ever hear of Hitler?

Despite what some would have you believe, not all Muslims are religious fanatics. You should learn more about the religion so you don't come across as totally ignorant.

note how Christ addresses the hypocrisy of jews who considered themselves superior by virtue of race/ancestory:


And here you are, considering yourself superior by virtue of your religion. Hmm.

I'm going to have to go with $100 on this one. Humans are stupid, and war is the ultimate piss contest. I think if anything, people who wrote the bible back in the day knew of the universal "stupid people" law, which may have inadvertently inspired people of today to think that somehow a war of arms is a divine manifestation of some sort, and it's working, apparently

ignorant people say random guys got together and wrote the Bible.....over the span of 1500 years

the scriptures are supernatural in origin


i grew up in the church. since i was a kid. i tried very hard to take the teachings and instructions and suggestions seriously, but i couldnt. I just drew cars. I tried to convulse at the front of the church, but i never had epilepsy, and my mind was always resistent to controlling suggestions. It was the undying sense of individualism that made me realise that the modern christian church relies heavily on psychological suggestion/control. It's practically all psychological.

where does it come from then? being mentally overwhelmed by screaming pastors and a vibrating congregation suffering from involutary epileptic siezures? My point is not nessecarily in question of the bible (or quran, or torah), but in the common mal-practice of the religion, and instilling some man-pastor's OWN beliefs into his lessons, by mixing it in with legit scriptures. I see it kinda like, if someone back in the day writes a few good notes on how not to catch leprosy, and people practicing that doctrine to a literal T, disregarding how life has changed since then, and how this may play in our CURRENT situation. Its the ignorance of the simple fact that a good 2 milennia have kinda gone by in between point a and point b... Why don't (normal) people sacrifice their children to ward off poverty and hunger anymore?

Have you ever been to a Southern Baptist church on Sunday?

Have you ever been to a Southern Baptist church on Sunday?

no, i do not want to get shot or hung

correction, some Muslims don't take the Quran seriously, or don't really know what it says, because, according to them, the Quran is "god's" perfect instruction...following God's instruction to the letter is the only way to live, if you truly believe He exists, and the Quran commands conversion by force, period!

problem is, the true God, the God of Israel, did not inspire the Quran, it was demonically inspired anput 500 years after the scripture was finalized, through the lying pen of a known deviant, who claimed to have revelations from "Gabriel"

this is really a war of heaven and hell

Have you actually read every word of the Quran? If not, then you don't have an educated opinion. Read the actual book, Mark.

i grew up in the church. since i was a kid. i tried very hard to take the teachings and instructions and suggestions seriously, but i couldnt. I just drew cars.

Wow, that’s some real perseverance there. Why do people always overstate their initial convictions?

It's practically all psychological.

What isn't?

I took an eight week class on it....depends on how you care to define "educated"

If you haven't read it word for word, then your opinion is irrelevant. Who taught your 8 week class? A christian minister?

Would you take an 8 week class on a rotary from a die-hard Chevy guy who thinks Mazda sucks?

my opinion is 100% accurate

the Quran teaches conversion by sword....undeniable fact

soooo....lemme get this straight....

you took an 8 week class on the Quran, and because of it, you pronounce yourself knowledgeable about exactly what the Quran contains.

HOWEVER, if someone studies the Bible for 8 weeks, you tell them that they are ignorant, do not know all of the contents of that book, and dont know what they are talking about.

things that make ya go hmmmmm.......

this all goes back to what I said earlier. When you take one specific quote from the Quran and try to apply it to present-day thinking, it is the exact same as trying to quote the old testament in the same manner. You refer to one piece of text that tells a historical story in the Quran--much like the old testament tells the history--and then you claim that it is something that 100% applies today.

you fail

soooo....lemme get this straight....

you took an 8 week class on the Quran, and because of it, you pronounce yourself knowledgeable about exactly what the Quran contains.

HOWEVER, if someone studies the Bible for 8 weeks, you tell them that they are ignorant, do not know all of the contents of that book, and dont know what they are talking about.

things that make ya go hmmmmm.......

this all goes back to what I said earlier. When you take one specific quote from the Quran and try to apply it to present-day thinking, it is the exact same as trying to quote the old testament in the same manner. You refer to one piece of text that tells a historical story in the Quran--much like the old testament tells the history--and then you claim that it is something that 100% applies today.

you fail


+1
:owned:

Wow, that’s some real perseverance there. Why do people always overstate their initial convictions?



What isn't?

why is someone worried about it? You behave as though I'm standing in front of a large group of people wowing them with simple magic tricks and overwheming their psyche with insecurities so that i can collect their money to support my expensive car and drug habit.

it isn't "one quote"...it's numerous suras, as documented in this link http://www.answeringislam.net/Bailey/jihad.html

jihad is a progressive theme of the Quran...I'm not sure why there is even an argument about this, when the evidence is ubiquitous...are you claiming the President of Iran doesn't know the Quran? :rolleyes:



and I already refuted that non-logic, which you conveniently ignored...as I said, the Quran does not teach dispensationalism

I'm guessing you don't even know what that term means



lol

no, I rule you, jonnie...for the last four years

let's see you (or anyone) attempt to defend your position with something other than lame, one line quips

1--anything, when taken out of context, can be made to mean whatever you wish. Case in point--someone could(and already has) claimed that, because of the old testament stories like Abraham and Isaac, that God is a mean ruler that delights in watching His human pets suffer. They used the exact words in the Bible to claim this. NOW, doesnt mean it was right, but it certainly can be made to look that way when you take it out of context like that. This is what you do when you quote the Quran, Marky.....you loved to point out that one specific one that says "kill all nonbelievers wherever you find them"....but you neglected to mention that it was a part of a specific story and was not meant to be used as a general instruction for all of the world and for all eternity. THAT is why I said you fail, because you did.

2--When you took your "8-week class" on the Quran, what else did they miss? Oh, by the way, when you say "8-week course", are you talking about one or two classes a week? Or did you spend 8 hours a day in that class, each day of the week for those 8 weeks?? Be honest here--you took a VERY small course on this topic, and yet you claim to know what's what. Gimme a break.

3--In your class, what did you learn about the "true Muslim" position on a woman's place and purpose? It just so happens that true Islam is all about respecting women--and when you compare that to the actions and practices of morons like the Iranian president, etc etc etc, you will again see that their particular brand of Islam is NOT THE SAME.

4--look--you have been banned two times from this section. You were then warned about getting each and every post moderated because you still cannot behave like an adult. And even then, the personal attacks continue. You RULE me? Well, I wanna see how well you can rule anyone in here when every word you type has to be double-checked because you cannot grow up. I simply said that you failed because you did fail to make your point. No need for you to go off on a Marky internet power trip now....

EDIT--I refuse to look at anything as proof from the same biased source you have been trumpeting around forever.

my opinion is 100% accurate

the Quran teaches conversion by sword....undeniable fact

Have you read the book?

I've been asking you to do that for YEARS.

YEARS.

Just read the entire Quran, cover to cover.

btw, there are several excellent, well researched books out there on this subject

the longing of radical Muslims to return to the "golden age" of Islam during the time of Muhammad and his immediate successors is explained in the following quote from Serge Trifkovic's book, The Sword Of Islam:

The revival of the model of early Islam in a modern form absolutely mandates the reaffirmation of uncompromising animosity to non-believers and the return to violence as a means of attaining political ends. Islamic terrorism, far from being an aberration, became inseparable from modern-jihad as spiritual battling with the evil impulses of the soul - a rendering endlessly repeated by Islam's apologists in the Western world - is quite properly rejected by today's Islamic activists not only as theologically incorrect (which it is) but also as a dangerous and harmful distraction from the path of divinely ordained struggle. The cult of martyrdom, always present in Shi'ite Islam, was fully revived by the Muslim brotherhoods in the early twentieth century and their different incarnations throughout the Islamic world and the Muslim diaspora in the West. What distinguishes "fundamentalists" and "conservatives" from "ordinary" Muslims as far as reference to the "golden age" is concerned is that "the former blot out history in favor of the reactivation of the founding myth, while the latter accommodate themselves to the history of Muslim societies". p 205


Yeah, he's not militant himself or anything:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=1024

Have you read the book?

I've been asking you to do that for YEARS.

YEARS.

Just read the entire Quran, cover to cover.

Here ya go YZF it's even free!

http://www.freekoran.com/form.php

Here ya go YZF it's even free!

http://www.freekoran.com/form.php

He'll never read it.

If he reads it himself, he would have to form his own opinions... And, if he does that, he might see that the people he so respects have their own agendas and aren't telling the truth.

why is someone worried about it? You behave as though I'm standing in front of a large group of people wowing them with simple magic tricks and overwheming their psyche with insecurities so that i can collect their money to support my expensive car and drug habit.

I'm not worried about it at all. I just get annoyed when morons like yourself start talking about how "individual minded" they are.

you're right...I have better things to do than read lies, half truths, and heretical Bible plagiarism (any more)

the scriptures were around a looooooooooooong time before Muhammad showed up with his heresies, in fact, Christians and Jews are referred to by him as "people of the Book"

proud to be a man of the Book

Isaiah 49

This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I will beckon to the Gentiles,
I will lift up my banner to the peoples;
they will bring your sons in their arms
and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground;
they will lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the LORD;
those who hope in me will never be disappointed

the above only applies to those who hope with true hearts...just for clarification...

I was quite clearly referring to the last part, the part that you highlighted....but thanks. next time if i need your help I will be sure to ask for it

you're right...I have better things to do than read lies, half truths, and heretical Bible plagiarism (any more)

Then don't expect anyone to think your opinion on it is relevant.

you took an 8 week class on the Quran, and because of it, you pronounce yourself knowledgeable about exactly what the Quran contains.

HOWEVER, if someone studies the Bible for 8 weeks, you tell them that they are ignorant, do not know all of the contents of that book, and dont know what they are talking about.

I meant to mention earlier that Jon makes an excellent point here. Double standard, anyone?

this all goes back to what I said earlier. When you take one specific quote from the Quran and try to apply it to present-day thinking, it is the exact same as trying to quote the old testament in the same manner. You refer to one piece of text that tells a historical story in the Quran--much like the old testament tells the history--and then you claim that it is something that 100% applies today.

Or the fact that usually, that one specific quote is taken completely out of context... I can, with little effort, flip through the Bible, take plenty of things out of context, and make every Christian look like a homicidal maniac.

You know, this idea isn't original.


Ever hear of Hitler?

Despite what some would have you believe, not all Muslims are religious fanatics. You should learn more about the religion so you don't come across as totally ignorant.
You should learn to read my posts more carefully. I said some not all.

Oh and Kev, you're right about Hitler. It's completely relevant to this discussion. :rolleyes: I remember reading about how some (again some, just in case you missed it this time) Jews were blowing themselves up in front of the Reichstag for their religious beliefs. Oh and how some asked for the Pope's beheading for his comments on events leading to the crucifiction.

Damn those 1930's Jews and their violent behavior.
/end sarcasm

excuse me, but not many people here, certainly not you or jonnie, have studied the Bible, or received careful and accurate instruction on it

jon butchers everything he touches, and you're simply a random antagonist (and a witch)

any questions?

thanks for illustrating exactly the double standard we were referring to....

you criticize others because they may or may not have had as much instruction on the Bible as you have, but when it comes to YOUR lack of instruction on the Quran, it is a totally different story in your eyes.....

I think that about sums this one up....no one could have shown your double standard better than you yourself, so thanks again for doing just that....:bowdown:

EDIT--more insults, Marky??? What--you dont like being able to post in this section or something? I didnt see anyone call you names....perhaps you should take the time out of your very busy schedule--since we all knwo you wont be using that time to read the Quran(lmao), and re-acquaint yourself with the rules of this section. PERSONAL ATTACKS OF ANY KIND ARE NOT PERMITTED.

Kevin, I think it is time to do something more about this one....no matter what steps have been taken, he still refuses to respect the rules or anyone in here.....clearly something else is needed at this point.

no double standard at all

certain doctrines of the Bible are so clear that anyone can understand, example John 3:16, others less so

the doctrine of jihad in the Quran is so clear that even Wikipedia has it prominently listed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

The directive of the Jihad given to Muslims in Qur'an is:

And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight against you and do not transgress bounds [in this fighting]. God does not love the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out [of the place] from which they drove you out and [remember] persecution is worse than carnage. But do not initiate war with them near the Holy Kabah unless they attack you there. But if they attack you, put them to the sword [without any hesitation]. Thus shall such disbelievers be rewarded. However, if they desist [from this disbelief], Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Keep fighting against them, until persecution does not remain and [in the land of Arabia] Allah’s religions reigns supreme. But if they mend their ways, then [you should know that] an offensive is only allowed against the evil-doers. A sacred month for a sacred month; [similarly] other sacred things too are subject to retaliation. So if any one transgresses against you, you should also pay back in equal coins. Have fear of Allah and [keep in mind that] Allah is with those who remain within the bounds [stipulated by religion]. 2:190-194

These verses told Muslims that they should not merely fight the Quraish if they resist them in offering Hajj, but the Qur’an goes on to say that they should continue to fight the Quraish until the persecution perpetrated by them is uprooted and Islam prevails in the whole of Arabia. Initially Muslims were required to fulfill this responsibility even if the enemy was ten times their might. Afterwards, the Qur'an reduced the burden of this responsibility.

As in Qur'an:

Prophet! Rouse the believers to wage war. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred: if a hundred, they will subdue a thousand of the disbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. 8:65

[From] now, God has lightened your [task] for He knows that there is now weakness amongst you: But [ever so], if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred, and if a thousand, they will subdue two thousand, with the leave of God: for God is with those who patiently persevere. 8:66

again....any questions??




that's right jonnie, so lay off the "you fail" crap :rolleyes:

you ALWAYS have to throw in a little dig, and think I won't respond to it

1--wikipedia is NOTHING MORE THAN AN OPINION SITE, Marky....it is a place where OPINIONS are posted and not facts. Sorry--you lose there. Anyone can post a wikipedia page....and they dont bother checking the info out for accuracy. Thanks for playing.

Here--want proof?? Using only the wikipedia link you furnished, let's see what you ignored:

Jihad, sometimes spelled Jahad, Jehad, Jihaad, Djehad or Cihad, (Arabic: جهاد‎ ǧihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle. Individuals involved in the political or military forms of jihad are often labeled with the neologism "jihadist" or "jihadi".

--In other words, the JIHAD crap you keep complaining about doesnt even mean what you thought it did!!!!

The term "jihad" describes is often used to describe purely physical and military "religious war", through physical struggle. Some Muslim scholars say that this only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahidin) (Arabic: striver, struggler). Such a person might engage in fighting as a military struggle for religious reasons, or for example, struggle to memorize the Qur'an. Jihad has gained a negative connotation and reputation in much of the West because of its usage by various groups classified by the United States of America as terrorist organizations as part of its War on terror.

HMMMM.....so much for your so-called understanding about the meaning of jihad, huh?? What else did you ignore from your own "proof"??

Jihad has been classified either as al-jihād al-akbar (the greater jihad), the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihād al-asghar (the lesser jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.

Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God):[1]

Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

FIVE kinds of jihad, and only one of them is "of the sword". Why, if you were so knowledgeable on the Quran, did you leave this information out?? Was that not covered in that 8-week class??:bigthumb:

More--

Nearly all Muslims believe that the non-military jihad is the "greater jihad" and the military jihad is the "lesser jihad."

HMMMMM....that is interesting....and COMPLETELY goes against your claims....

Here are some other key tidbits that are contained within the link you posted, and that you also apparently ignored:

People who want to remain neutral in war should be left alone and not be troubled in any way. As in Qur'an:
Or those who approach you such that they neither have the courage to fight you nor their own people [and are such that] had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah does not give you permission to take any action against them. 4:90

People who neither take part in a battle nor are able to take part in it – as per the dictates of custom as well as sense and reason – should not be killed. As according to a hadith:
‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Umar (rta) reports from the Prophet (sws) that once in a battle when it became known that a woman had been killed, the Prophet (sws) emphatically forbade the killing of the women and children.[17]

Dead bodies should not be mutilated.[20]

--Does Fallujah ring a bell on that last one, oh 8-week master of the Quran?? It sure does for me--a personal friend was among those four that were killed, burned, mutilated, quartered, and hung on that bridge....

Wrong no one and exercise no torture.
Do not touch the children, women and the old.
Do not destroy fruit-trees and fertile lands.
Do not kill sheep and cattle.
Respect all religious persons who live in hermitages or convents and spare their edifices.

WOW--wrong no one?? Do not touch women or children? IS ANY OF THIS GETTING THROUGH TO YOU YET?? The people over there are not following ANY of what the Quran dictates! THAT WAS MY POINT FROM THE START.....

any questions?? didnt think so

2--I already explained quite clearly to you the purpose of "you fail", so get over it already. In any event, your misunderstanding of that COULD be used as an excuse for acting like that towards ME, but it certainly does not excuse your use of personal insults towards OTHERS, like Kevin, now does it?? Any way you slice this, you cannot truthfully defend your actions, unless you simply admit that you throw the rules aside. Its that simple.

TRUTH--you keep breaking the rules in here that you promised to follow and respect.

TRUTH--you break those rules to insult others that have NOT insulted you to begin with.

Nothing you can say will change that.

3--as for your little snippet of the Quran, JUST LIKE I TOLD YOU, it is specifically a part of a historical story. You merely followed one of your biased web sites and took it out of context. That was a part of a story that conveyed to the reader what happened LONG AGO.

And, just like I also said to you, one could in the same manner take snippets from the old testament and make claims the same way!

excuse me, but not many people here, certainly not you or jonnie, have studied the Bible, or received careful and accurate instruction on it

jon butchers everything he touches, and you're simply a random antagonist (and a witch)

any questions?

I know FAR more about the Bible and Christianity than you do about Islam.

Oh and Kev, you're right about Hitler. It's completely relevant to this discussion. :rolleyes: I remember reading about how some (again some, just in case you missed it this time) Jews were blowing themselves up in front of the Reichstag for their religious beliefs. Oh and how some asked for the Pope's beheading for his comments on events leading to the crucifiction.

Damn those 1930's Jews and their violent behavior.
/end sarcasm

So just because some militant morons do some stupid shit, we should have a "holy war" (your words, and that's a war based on their religion) against Islam?

How are you going to announce that one, brainiac? "OK, we're gonna annihilate anyone who has a bomb strapped to their chest in the name of Allah"???

another novel :rolleyes:

the concept of jihad, and the Muslim belief in it, speaks for itself

maybe when they kill someone you care about, you might stop defending their belief system

Because we know NO ONE has ever been killed in the name of Christ, right?

EDIT--more insults, Marky??? What--you dont like being able to post in this section or something? I didnt see anyone call you names....perhaps you should take the time out of your very busy schedule--since we all knwo you wont be using that time to read the Quran(lmao), and re-acquaint yourself with the rules of this section. PERSONAL ATTACKS OF ANY KIND ARE NOT PERMITTED.

Kevin, I think it is time to do something more about this one....no matter what steps have been taken, he still refuses to respect the rules or anyone in here.....clearly something else is needed at this point.




that's right jonnie, so lay off the "you fail" crap :rolleyes:

you ALWAYS have to throw in a little dig, and think I won't respond to it


Both of you knock it off, or I'm putting you guys in "Time Out".

Both of you knock it off, or I'm putting you guys in "Time Out".

Why do you cater to people like this, Kevin?? Why not tell the truth about what is really going on around here instead of pulling this crap to placate certain whiny people? Werent you just thanking me for not getting into trading insults with Marky?? And now it's "both of you two knock it off" all of a sudden? Look, dude--I am quite honestly and sincerely sick of this double-talk stuff. If you are going to thank me for not getting into his crap, then dont try to chastise me in here at the same time just to make others happy. The BOTTOM LINE Here is that he insults others....and no provocation is needed. He insulted me simply because I stated that he failed at his attempt to back up a point. He then insults you unprovoked.

Dont lump me in to the same bag as him. You have no place to PM me like you did just today, thanking me for "behaving", and then pull this on me just because the whiny bunch is watching. This forum is supposed to have rules that are not based upon the opinions of zero or any of the other members, so why not just act upon them??

Go ahead, go over my posts, you will not find ONE SINGLE INSULT to Mark in this section-even in my last post! NOT ONE. I didnt call him ignorant, or say that I "rule" him, or anything else......just as you asked, and just as you thanked me for this morning. So dont lump me in with him by any stretch--you and I BOTH know whats happening here.

no, just like I told you (and you refuse to listen, nothing new there), the Quran does not teach dispensationalism

we are not living in old covenant Judaism, we are living in the church age....the commands of God to the Jews of the O.T., in terms of conquering the land of Israel do not apply to the church age, so your claim is false and you can't support it with anything from scripture

"you fail"

Likewise, Marky, we are not living in the original times according to the Quran, when that was ordered! SAME THING. Just like I told you. For the hundredth time, you quoted a part of a historical story, just as if someone were to quote Abraham and Isaac out of context--it was a specific part of a story and NOT written as a permanent general order for all time. Stop trying to make it into something it never was just to fit your preconceived notions.

No name calling. Read the section rules.

Why do you cater to people like this, Kevin?? Why not tell the truth about what is really going on around here instead of pulling this crap to placate certain whiny people? Werent you just thanking me for not getting into trading insults with Marky?? And now it's "both of you two knock it off" all of a sudden? Look, dude--I am quite honestly and sincerely sick of this double-talk stuff. If you are going to thank me for not getting into his crap, then dont try to chastise me in here at the same time just to make others happy. The BOTTOM LINE Here is that he insults others....and no provocation is needed. He insulted me simply because I stated that he failed at his attempt to back up a point. He then insults you unprovoked.

Dont lump me in to the same bag as him. You have no place to PM me like you did just today, thanking me for "behaving", and then pull this on me just because the whiny bunch is watching. This forum is supposed to have rules that are not based upon the opinions of zero or any of the other members, so why not just act upon them??

Go ahead, go over my posts, you will not find ONE SINGLE INSULT to Mark in this section-even in my last post! NOT ONE. I didnt call him ignorant, or say that I "rule" him, or anything else......just as you asked, and just as you thanked me for this morning. So dont lump me in with him by any stretch--you and I BOTH know whats happening here.

And I'm telling you AGAIN that if you have an issue, PM me. You call me out in a thread, I'm gonna tell both of you to knock it off. Got it?

What a marvelous waste of time you people are spending arguing about Islam. Islam is illegitmate. Period. In fact, Islam is easier to identify as illegitimate than Hinduism, Bhuddism or Hale-Bopper Marshall Applewhite.

Is there one here who can logically argue the legitimacy of Islam? Man-up for your beat-down. Reveal your ignorance for everyone to see. Firstly, if you don't believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob what business do you have defending Islam? How stupid is that? Most of you don't even recognize God. Why, because you are punks. If YZF-R1 says something critical about Islam and you don't believe in the God who created you, you are a fool for defending it (Islam). That makes you a punk.

OK, that's great.

I don't defend Islam as a religion, just like I don't defend the validity of any other religion. I defend the rights of others to follow whatever religion they choose to follow. (And, I'd just as vehemently defend YOUR and Mark's rights to worship Christ.) I'm defending the fact that Islam really is a religion of peace, and that 99% of Muslims are actually nice people who just want to live their lives. The area of Southern California I grew up in was predominantly Middle Eastern (because we lived in the rich part of town :p) and they were all exceedingly nice. I'd say about 30% were Middle Eastern Jews, the other 70% were Muslim, and they were ALL nice people. None of them tried to convert anyone, and, as a matter of fact, none of them really talked about their religion at all.

Answer this, if Jesus is the Messiah, the one who brings the light to the Gentiles and salvation to everyone, what can Mohammed possibly offer us?

OK, and if Jesus isn't the Messiah, then what can he possibly offer us? See? That argument goes both ways. You think you're right, they think they're right. Neither of you have any concrete evidence.

Anyone who sits here and wants to proclaim that their beliefs are "better" or "superior" or that they have the sole handle on the truth is a fucking moron. That's what cracks me up about this whole section, Mark in particular: It's not enough that Christians believe in Christ, everyone else must be wrong, Christianity must be right.

Your relationship with your God is a personal one. It doesn't require my acquiescence. It doesn't require my conversion. It doesn't require my validation. My relationship with my God is a personal one. Whether you or Mark agrees with it doesn't matter. It's my personal relationship, and that's all the faith it requires. Why does your faith depend so heavily on the faith of others? It's like those morons who claim "homosexual marriage violates the sanctity of marriage!" How? Your marriage is what YOU make of it. Same with God, the Bible, Islam, the Quran, whatever. It is what YOU and YOU ALONE make of it.

Bottom line, Mark and his rants and you coming in here calling everyone "punks" isn't going to make people say "Wow, let me walk hand in hand with Jesus". You guys are the worst ambassadors of Christ I've ever seen. Isn't the goal of your life to be more like Christ? Would Christ join up here and threaten people? Wish cancer or hurricanes on them? Call them names?

Practice what you preach.

OK, that's great.

OK, and if Jesus isn't the Messiah, then what can he possibly offer us? See? That argument goes both ways. You think you're right, they think they're right. Neither of you have any concrete evidence.


You answer my question first and then I'll answer yours. I asked for an answer not another question.

You answer my question first and then I'll answer yours. I asked for an answer not another question.

I already answered it in my other post. Jesus has nothing to offer me, because I don't fall into that system of beliefs. Mohammed, Allah, Islam has nothing to offer me, because I don't fall into that system of beliefs.

Now, I notice that out of my entire post, that's the only part you keyed in on. Why don't you go re-read everything else I posted.

I already answered it in my other post.

No, I don't think you have.

Here's the question again:

Answer this, if Jesus is the Messiah, the one who brings the light to the Gentiles and salvation to everyone, what can Mohammed possibly offer us?

If you are going to answer my question , you must first work with my presupposition. Whether you personally agree or not doesn't matter.


Now, I notice that out of my entire post, that's the only part you keyed in on. Why don't you go re-read everything else I posted.

I'm too much in shock that you've pulled my original post because I said 'punk'. I suppose I'll have to refrain from calling anyone a fudging poop head. Nits.

then you must believe you are without sin?

I don't go in for Christian definitions of anything, Mark. Do I do things that are disallowed by the Bible? Sure. As do you. But, do I claim to live my life by the Bible? No, I do not.

One of the "rules" I follow is called "The Law of Allowing". I am that which I am, and I allow all others to be that which they are.

Now, before you try to contort that phrase, let me clarify what it means my "allow all others to be that which they are." No, that doesn't mean I grant them permission or any other stupid shit like that. What that means is, I accept them the way they are, accept their right to do what they do, and don't attempt to change them. Do I think Christ is the light and the way? No, I do not. But, does that give me claim on your right to think that way? No, it does not. I do not attempt to change your beliefs. I keep telling you, love Christ. Be a Christian. That's who you are. Where I draw the line, however, is with you casting dispersions at the beliefs of others. You can attempt to let people know your beliefs and to try to alert them to what you believe is true, but the blatant slandering of other religions that you do is not covered in that.

No, I don't think you have.

Here's the question again:

Answer this, if Jesus is the Messiah, the one who brings the light to the Gentiles and salvation to everyone, what can Mohammed possibly offer us?

If you are going to answer my question , you must first work with my presupposition. Whether you personally agree or not doesn't matter.

And, I already said, Mohammed has nothing to offer me, and neither does Christ, because I do not fall into that system of beliefs.

I'm too much in shock that you've pulled my original post because I said 'punk'. I suppose I'll have to refrain from calling anyone a fudging poop head. Nits.

The rules are the rules. We've been having holy war in here for the last 3 months over that, if I have to enforce 'em, I'm gonna enforce 'em unilaterally.

what does that prove? so, you have a bunch of apathetic rich people who claim to be Muslim, just as you have legions of apathetic rich people who claim to be Christian

doesn't change the aggressive doctrines of the Quran, which fuel their hate and quest for global domination, because they believe "god" is on their side

So now the people I know "claim" to be Muslim? C'mon Mark, let's operate on the assumption that they are Muslim, m'kay?

As far as "the aggressive doctrines of the Quran" stuff, I refuse to discuss this topic with you until you've read it for yourself and have an opinion other than what a Christian you respect has given you to copy.

God gave you a brain, Mark. It's capable of thought. USE IT!

kevin, you're a universalist, and you've always been a universalist....you believe there is no such thing as absolute truth in the spiritual/supernatural dimension

I believe that a power that can create this planet and everything on it and is omnipotent is strong enough to present itself to people in multiple ways, and again, my beliefs do not hinge upon the beliefs or approval of others. Can you wrap your brain around that?

but you can only be proven wrong

That very well could be, and I accept the possiblity of that happening. You, also, could very well be proven wrong, because bottom line, no one knows for sure.

forced conversion, no, but we plead with people "to be reconciled to God"...that is the Great Commission...and those God has called will respond

Please, show me where you have ever "plead" with anyone. We'll wait.

if your "faith" is a lie, we are obliged to inform you of such...in the same way you warn someone about to drive their car off a cliff

And if my faith is not a lie, then you've wasted my valuable time. Again, if-if-if. If my Aunt had balls...

wrong...totally wrong...personal whim or fancy has NOTHING to do with TRUTH

Your perception of truth is yours, and yours alone. My perception is mine, and mine alone. Just because we don't see "truth" the same way doesn't mean one of us is wrong.

there cannot be more than one God...God is perfectly INTOLERANT of idolatry and false doctrine, God ALONE declares what is RIGHT...not any whimsical human being

Except I don't follow your rule book, so again, those rules don't apply to me. If you have the rulebook for football, and I'm on a basketball court, guess what? I don't have to go 10 yards in 4 plays.

GOD is the Judge...GOD determines what is right and what is wrong, truth and error in both the physical moral universe and the spiritual one

Yet here you are, claiming to know the truth, claiming to know I'm wrong. Who made you God?

good point, but jonnie is annoying

So you are allowed to suspend your beliefs when someone bothers you? Under what other situations are you allowed to act as other than Christian?

can you wrap your brain around the fact that your entire way of thinking about God and the supernatural is wrong?

According to whom? You? Sure. According to me? No. Again, why do you have to be "right"? You're like a 5 year old in that regard.

according to the Word of God....3500 years and counting

the tolerance/universalist religious movement is the most seducing and deceptive religious system in the world today, and it will enslave the entire world under the antichrist

Just because something has been around for 3500 years doesn't make it right. I don't play by those rules, therefore those rules don't apply to me. Again, you've got the rulebook for your game, the game I'm playing is different. And, I still want you to respond line by line to this:


That very well could be, and I accept the possiblity of that happening. You, also, could very well be proven wrong, because bottom line, no one knows for sure.



Please, show me where you have ever "plead" with anyone. We'll wait.



And if my faith is not a lie, then you've wasted my valuable time. Again, if-if-if. If my Aunt had balls...



Your perception of truth is yours, and yours alone. My perception is mine, and mine alone. Just because we don't see "truth" the same way doesn't mean one of us is wrong.



Except I don't follow your rule book, so again, those rules don't apply to me. If you have the rulebook for football, and I'm on a basketball court, guess what? I don't have to go 10 yards in 4 plays.



Yet here you are, claiming to know the truth, claiming to know I'm wrong. Who made you God?


And I am absolutely on pins and needles waiting for this one:

So you are allowed to suspend your beliefs when someone bothers you? Under what other situations are you allowed to act as other than Christian?

the rules do apply to you...you just don't know it yet



And again, maybe you're right.

But, chances are, you're wrong.

Alright, we know all what you believe, Mark.

Back on topic.

good point, but jonnie is annoying

I see...so, apparently all that hogwash that God said about compassion, and "love your enemies", etc etc etc, doesnt mean anything to you in the end. And to think, you go around talking about OTHERS treating the bible like a buffet....hmmmm.....

under no situations, if I was perfect and mature

According to God, under no situations REGARDLESS. Otherwise, why would such behavior be called a sin? If it was only something to strive towards if you were perfect, then no one would ever reach Heaven. YOU, as the self-proclaimed example, as the self-proclaimed "one that God owns", as the self-proclaimed member of that very small minority on that narrow path, you are supposed to be holding yourself to a far higher standard--not perfect, but at least trying to do what God tells you. But I guess your bible has those parts missing....time for a new book, I think, one with all the words of God in it, so you can stop cherry-picking what you will follow and when it is ok to deviate for your own personal pride

I've never denied that I sin....daily

Well then, shouldn't you be taking responsibility for your sins, rather than shrugging them off with a b.s. excuse? Shouldn't you also be learning from them so as to not keep repeating them?

I don't "shrug it off"...but I do have a very limited tolerance for hacks and random antagonists, perhaps that's immature, but it's my confrontational nature...I also believe in imprecatory prayer, I don't live in a mr. rogers world...praying for the rapid death of someone like jon can be good in my opinion, I'm confident he's nothing more than an apostate straight from hell...I actually have far more tolerance for someone like dennis

it is not about shrugging it off. It is about you trying your best to find a convenient excuse to let yourself off the hook whenever you pull this crap in here. The bible certainly makes no such allowance for your now-famous line of "but they started it" excuses for yoru behavior.

There's your "novel", marky....

you're right....it doesn't....but everyone has their limits

and I'm pretty good at receiving criticism when it's delivered by someone I respect

sometimes it is wise to pay more attention to the message, is it not?? Besides, you have been criticized by several people that you "respect" in the forums....apparently, based solely on your actions to date, those rebukes did not do a damn thing. So, in the end, you are just making excuses to justify your actions, refusing to listen to most of us, and CLAIMING to listen to the few that you supposedly respect. Although, when you claim you can receive that criticism, you then do nothing with it. Receiving is one thing, taking it to heart and changing what you know to be ridiculously wrong behavior is entirely another......

I've never had any faith in humanity...and here we come to the reality behind your religion.
Since you, as a ChristiaNazi, cannot behave yourself, doing things like praying to God to kill Jon, etc, you've decided that certainly it's not possible, or plausible, for anyone NOT of your faith to exhibit anything resembling humanity enough to be excused by your God for his Biblical ignorance, let alone possibly be an asset to humankind.

YOU are the light of the lord. YOU hold the torch that shall illuminate any salvageable soul's path. It's YOUR way, or it's the way of the lost.
And since you're one of the biggest assholes we all know, including yourself, then it's just not possible in your mind that you could ever be anything other than that without your faith.

-And that would be correct, too. I have a sneaking suspiscion that if you weren't such a psychoChristian filled with hate, your life would be like the "Keeping it Real" episode of the Chapell Show. Someone would have bashed your fat head in a long time ago. But because of your wild idealism...-scratch that...-IDOLISM, people just regard you the same way they regard someone who's a little slow. Your relentless assholism surrounding your faith and the hate-filled condemnation you cast upon all those around you is somehow excusable as if you were suffering a mental illness. You are actually treated with a strange kind of akwardness as if you are mentally incapacitated because people DON'T really know the truth, cannot possibly ever know the truth, and because the worst, most sour aspec of religion keeps wagging it's dog, constantly getting it's dander in everyone's fucking face all the time; ... everyone just avoids the whole issue like the plague.
Personally, I have no problem with a holy war. Kill as many potential theocratisans as possible. It's good for us to get rid of the old 3500 year old bullshit. Much of it has been disproven and it no longer serves man very well anymore anyway. Only the weak minded who cannot control themselves are so easily manipulated any more.
That and the stupid.
Either are the most likely to believe in a literal translation of the Bible, and either are the most likey to walk into a schoolhouse and blow the brains outta a buncha little girls.

The Bible might have a spec of credibility if it wasn't for the fact that such an astonishingly high percent of those who insist they know the "only" true translation of God's words was comprised of complete and utter assholes like yourself. I'll play the mathmatical odds...

-It's just not mathmatically feasible that so many egocentric assholes could be correct.

then you must believe you are without sin?

yes, that would be me :D

yes, we should have a Holy War, Humanity against all gods.

no holy war.

yes, that would be me :D

yes, we should have a Holy War, Humanity against all gods.

Welcome back!

the judgment that is coming on the entire world

this god, for example, has already declared a Holy War on mankind. boasting of mass slaughter in previous years this bloody fiend openly brags that it will send armies of immortal demons to slaughter every human on the planet according to its foam flecked toady quoted above.

we should meekly submit to destruction WHY ?

what is the moral difference between preaching meek submission to the fangs of the angels and preaching suicide bombing ?

what place does either have in a land of free men ?