For it? Against it? Any thoughts?

I don't think it's stealing.

I am all about getting my tunes at whatever is cheapest for me. (But I do buy NiN, because I really like it)

Many artists lobby FOR free downloading of music, as it increases their fanbase and concert attendance. The latter being where the artists make their real money - not from the pittance of royalties per CD the record companies give 'em.

In Canada it remains legal, but the new government is attempting to adopt a far more strict copyright act which would make it illegal.

I don't think it's stealing.

I am all about getting my tunes at whatever is cheapest for me. (But I do buy NiN, because I really like it)

Same here. I've downloaded NIN albums before but I always go out and buy the album afterwards, just doesn't feel right now owning the hard copies of his albums.

Many artists lobby FOR free downloading of music, as it increases their fanbase and concert attendance. The latter being where the artists make their real money - not from the pittance of royalties per CD the record companies give 'em.

In Canada it remains legal, but the new government is attempting to adopt a far more strict copyright act which would make it illegal.

You raise a good point about using free downloads as a means for artists to increase their fan base. I think free downloading may have its shortcomings with new artists who aren't able to make an album and get their music out there, although I could be mislead about the costs of starting up.

Artists labor, they produce a product, intended to commercially sell it to you the consumer.
Make no doubt that those artists that create a cd, a tangible product, want you to pay them for it (if they so choose to give it away thats their choice).

So by you downloading music, software, artwork, etc, you are essentially taking away the artists right to profit from their labor.

Forget the middle men in this, the record companies, distribution, what have you.
If it was a friend of yours that created a CD, and you walked up and said, hey I just downloaded your music for free, basically ripping you off, how long is that person going to be your friend.

Believe me, you don't want to be on the other side of this. I once created a software program that was hacked an placed on the internet, basically all my work was ripped off and any profit from it was gone.

Artists labor, they produce a product, intended to commercially sell it to you the consumer.
Make no doubt that those artists that create a cd, a tangible product, want you to pay them for it (if they so choose to give it away thats their choice).

So by you downloading music, software, artwork, etc, you are essentially taking away the artists right to profit from their labor.

Forget the middle men in this, the record companies, distribution, what have you.
If it was a friend of yours that created a CD, and you walked up and said, hey I just downloaded your music for free, basically ripping you off, how long is that person going to be your friend.

Believe me, you don't want to be on the other side of this. I once created a software program that was hacked an placed on the internet, basically all my work was ripped off and any profit from it was gone.

Decent arguments, but consider this:

I hear a song on the radio that sounds interesting though in my opinion not worth the $20 that it would cost me to buy the record. I never had any intention of going to the record store and paying for the artist's album. By my downloading this artist's album, the artist is in fact not losing anything. If I like the album, I might feel inclined to now go out and buy their material, merchandise, concert tickets, etc. Before downloading, the artist gets none of my money and loses nothing. After I download, the artist still loses nothing although now the chances of getting some of my money have increased.

If it was a friend of yours that created a CD, and you walked up and said, hey I just downloaded your music for free, basically ripping you off, how long is that person going to be your friend.

As for this, I think that it really depends on the person. I have some friends who are aspiring musicians (really they aren't very good) and all that they care about at this point is that people listen to their music. Obviously this is something that could change for them later on down the road but for some, I think that exposure is more important than getting paid for a specific product.

Artists labor, they produce a product, intended to commercially sell it to you the consumer.
Make no doubt that those artists that create a cd, a tangible product, want you to pay them for it (if they so choose to give it away thats their choice).

So by you downloading music, software, artwork, etc, you are essentially taking away the artists right to profit from their labor.

Most artists, even small, beginner bands, make far more money from performing than CD sales. And anything beyond beginner bands do not create their own CDs, but do so under contract with labels, who pay small royalties per CD sold while restricting where and when the artists can perform - hence the downloading being so popular with artists.

A similar debate raged in the music scene when CDs came out. "You want to give listeners a digital copy? That's like giving them a master of the album! Bootlegging will be rampant!" and yet when the paradigm shifted, no one lost huge revenues. That's what's happening again - new technologies mean new ways of marketing anything, and music makes money through far more sources than CD sales alone.

Film, on the other hand, makes money primarily by selling box office tickets or DVDs. I'm working on a free movie download model, but it remains to be seen if it'll gain wide acceptance.

Last CD purchased: Jay-Z, Hard Knock Life (1999) 9th Grade.

That should let you know how I feel about it.

I think the last CD I bought was like Korn Issues.

NiN - Year Zero for me, but before that.... I don't even know maybe 7th grade. I haven't bought a CD in forever.

And once I got my first MP3 player I never had a reason for a CD ever again.

I hear a song on the radio that sounds interesting though in my opinion not worth the $20 that it would cost me to buy the record. I never had any intention of going to the record store and paying for the artist's album. By my downloading this artist's album, the artist is in fact not losing anything. If I like the album, I might feel inclined to now go out and buy their material, merchandise, concert tickets, etc. Before downloading, the artist gets none of my money and loses nothing. After I download, the artist still loses nothing although now the chances of getting some of my money have increased.
:werd:

I still buy CD's though. Just bought a 10 CD set of Glenn Miller and a 4 CD set of the Bach Brandenburg Concertos a few weeks back. But for "modern" music, I always try it before I buy it.

WOW....I would have never pegged you for Glenn Miller Sup.....

Me and downloading music goes way back like way back in the days. I feel that it is okay to download songs, espcecially singles, ones that you don't want to pay for $15 just for a song. Downloading music allows for a particular taste to see what's out ther. If I really enjoy listening to a specific artist, I would goto the store and buy it.
The last albums I bought were Wu-Tang and Ghostface.
I don't think I'll ever stop buying CD's. I'm already building a CD collection so that's something. Hell, I might even fall for nostalgia and go for the 12"s.
As for this, I think that it really depends on the person. I have some friends who are aspiring musicians (really they aren't very good) and all that they care about at this point is that people listen to their music. Obviously this is something that could change for them later on down the road but for some, I think that exposure is more important than getting paid for a specific product.
I produce music (just released my debut? album, dropping a quickstrike sometime later this month), and honestly, I don't care if people d/l, buy, sample or trash it. I do flirt with the idea of being signed to some record company, but I just want my shit to be heard just as long as I'm having fun producing. The day the fun stops for me in producing, I'll retire from it.
:werd:

I still buy CD's though. Just bought a 10 CD set of Glenn Miller and a 4 CD set of the Bach Brandenburg Concertos a few weeks back. But for "modern" music, I always try it before I buy it.

Gee, I wonder who receives the royalties.

I'd also like to add that Lil Wayne is one of the most prolific rappers out there. Didn't release any albums in 06-07, the mixtape years. He said these mixtapes were free to legally download, a gift for his fan base which contained Wayne rapping over a variety of beats from recent hits by other musicians. In a recent interview with a magazine I read, Wayne stated that he made $10 million without a solo album. Nigga didn't even have to sell records to make money!
I guess my point here is that if your records don't sell, face it, you suck and nobody wants to waste their money on your music. Get over yourself. And to this I say fuck you to the record companies.

:werd:

I still buy CD's though. Just bought a 10 CD set of Glenn Miller and a 4 CD set of the Bach Brandenburg Concertos a few weeks back. But for "modern" music, I always try it before I buy it.

Did you buy a Time Life set offa the TV?

Decent arguments, but consider this:

I hear a song on the radio that sounds interesting though in my opinion not worth the $20 that it would cost me to buy the record. I never had any intention of going to the record store and paying for the artist's album. By my downloading this artist's album, the artist is in fact not losing anything. If I like the album, I might feel inclined to now go out and buy their material, merchandise, concert tickets, etc. Before downloading, the artist gets none of my money and loses nothing. After I download, the artist still loses nothing although now the chances of getting some of my money have increased.

Try before you buy? Thats still stealing.
Think of it this way, you are in fact taking away the artists right to make a profit on his labor even if his labor is a POS. So if it is that bad, does that justify you stealing from the artist? WTF, thats like going to a used car that is overpriced, not buying it, and taking off with the car without paying anything. Just because it sucks to you doesn't mean that you can still steal it.

WTF is wrong with people these days......yes, when you do download the album, without an intent to buy, that is stealing, reguarless if you think you MAY purchase it in the future....

"Honest officer, I didn't steal the car, I took it for a test drive but never returned it. I thought I would drive it around for a few days and think if I really wanted to pay for it"

I actually like the fact that some artists are giving away their music, like NIN and radiohead. But thats their choice, and if an artist doesn't want to do that and make a living off of their labor the traditional way, quit STEALING THEIR SHIT.

I need a good place to download movies... Need to research it a bit more :)

Try before you buy? Thats still stealing.
Think of it this way, you are in fact taking away the artists right to make a profit on his labor even if his labor is a POS. So if it is that bad, does that justify you stealing from the artist? WTF, thats like going to a used car that is overpriced, not buying it, and taking off with the car without paying anything. Just because it sucks to you doesn't mean that you can still steal it.

WTF is wrong with people these days......yes, when you do download the album, without an intent to buy, that is stealing, reguarless if you think you MAY purchase it in the future....

"Honest officer, I didn't steal the car, I took it for a test drive but never returned it. I thought I would drive it around for a few days and think if I really wanted to pay for it"

I actually like the fact that some artists are giving away their music, like NIN and radiohead. But thats their choice, and if an artist doesn't want to do that and make a living off of their labor the traditional way, quit STEALING THEIR SHIT.

That's not really what I said. Let's say that as it stands, there is no way that I am going to go a record store and pay for an album. This is true whether I download or not. If I do decide to download the album, the artist doesn't lose out on money that he/she would have gained had I not downloaded it for free because as already stated, there is no way that I am paying for their music.

Now, let's say that I download the music for free and it turns out that I like it. At that point I become a fan and it becomes more likely that the artist will make money off of me sometime down the road.

WOW....I would have never pegged you for Glenn Miller Sup.....heh, always have been. Used to love playing his music back in my trombone days.

Gee, I wonder who receives the royalties.
Think I give two shits about who got the royalties? Hell, the two sets together were something like $18. Thats a lot of royalties :rolleyes:

Did you buy a Time Life set offa the TV?
nope, was wandering through the classical and jazz sections of the f.y.e. and felt like buying a set of them.

I need a good place to download movies... Need to research it a bit more :)

I'm working on a legal download project that allows free downloads, but still pays the artists via sponsorships.

That's not really what I said. Let's say that as it stands, there is no way that I am going to go a record store and pay for an album. This is true whether I download or not. If I do decide to download the album, the artist doesn't lose out on money that he/she would have gained had I not downloaded it for free because as already stated, there is no way that I am paying for their music.

Now, let's say that I download the music for free and it turns out that I like it. At that point I become a fan and it becomes more likely that the artist will make money off of me sometime down the road.

You are trying to justify an illegal possession of someone else's work...ever hear of 'possession of stolen goods'? No mater how you rationalize it, its still illegal. Your possession of this material is the question here and the law disregards your intent on what you do with it....

So now you are saying that if you steal a car using a tow truck, park it in your garage but never drive it, you are not doing anything illegal?

You are trying to justify an illegal possession of someone else's work...ever hear of 'possession of stolen goods'? No mater how you rationalize it, its still illegal. Your possession of this material is the question here and the law disregards your intent on what you do with it....
I fully accept that it is "stolen" music at the time of download, but the RIAA doesn't draw a line between "previously downloaded" and "encoded from purchased cd" as far as I know. So am I stealing when I download a better encode of a CD I used to own but has become unplayable because of wear & tear?

So maybe you should bitch about it to someone else, try it before you buy it really does work when it comes to music.

You are trying to justify an illegal possession of someone else's work...ever hear of 'possession of stolen goods'? No mater how you rationalize it, its still illegal. Your possession of this material is the question here and the law disregards your intent on what you do with it....

So now you are saying that if you steal a car using a tow truck, park it in your garage but never drive it, you are not doing anything illegal?

Except that it isn't illegal where I live. Nice try though.

Think I give two shits about who got the royalties? Hell, the two sets together were something like $18. Thats a lot of royalties :rolleyes:


It was a rhetorical question that you hadn't to reply to but I'll just percieve your response as sarcasm. :bigthumb:

Except that it isn't illegal where I live. Nice try though.

It is illegal in the USA...but if your country lets you do that, then go ahead...
Hell I for one like driving into Wyoming and Nebraska and lighting off the good fireworks....where it isn't illegal, but bring that shit into Denver and you get a few thousand dollar fine.


As for the RIAA they are a bunch of tyrants. Honestly I only want money to go to the artists, and not the thieving record companies and such.

As for the grey areas of previously owned music now in better format, well technically you can say that is a revision of previous work....I.E and upgrade.
So if Mazda came out with a new RX7, I can just go out and take a new one off the lot because I own a previous model? Don't think that is how it works there Supper. Re-masterd songs ARE different than the original (hell look at VH greatest hits!)

Re-masterd songs ARE different than the original (hell look at VH greatest hits!)
I didn't mean re-mastered vs originals, i meant the exact same album just encoded at a higher bit rate. But this topic has been beat into the dust IMO.

You are trying to justify an illegal possession of someone else's work...ever hear of 'possession of stolen goods'? No mater how you rationalize it, its still illegal.

Not everywhere. Downloading music is legal in Canada - because musicians lobbied for it to remain so.

And no, remastered songs aren't different than originals. You're thinking of re-recorded songs, e.g. covers. Remastered just means they went back to the original master recordings and applied modern filtering to the signal for a "cleaner" sound.

I don't think of it as a big deal to download singles and what-not, but I think downloading a whole album is too much.

When I think of downloading music, I decide whether I care if this artist makes more records. If I do, I buy the cd but if I don't I'll DL it. I know the artist won't make more records if the previous one doesn't do well.

I also will happily download a cd if at some point I bought it but I lost it or it got damaged. You only get my money once.

I probably bought about 20 or so CDs in the last year. I think if you're really a fan of an artist, you shouldn't scam them for their work. You should show them your appreciation by throwing a little cash their way.

From my perspective, which is largley based in economics(or my lack there of) I say it's ok. For me, being a student, I have essentially no spare cash. The way I see it, the artist wouldn't be getting my money if I didn't have the option of downloading, anyway. Though, if I did have the money, I'd likely buy the album of a group/artist that I really apreciated.

i only legally buy when i want the entire cd

From the Man himself:

It kind of gets into the bigger picture that you've had to face as a musician over the last few years, which in my mind was a bitter pill to swallow, but it's pretty far down the hatch with me now: the way things are, I think music should be looked at as free. It basically is. The toothpaste is out of the tube and a whole generation of people is accustomed to music being that way. There's a perception that you don't pay for music when you hear it on the radio or MySpace.

There's a difficult transition in the mind of the musician and certainly in the mind of the record label. If that is the case, how does one adapt to that?

http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9847788-7.html