Who wants to go first?

I believe
you don't believe

nuff said

Bahá'í is the best religion EVAR.

All others = meh.

you are all figments of my imagination

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.

I just sounded off the YZF-R1 signal.

He'll be happy to use his old name and get post counts for the debates.

science and religion function on different levels of explanation

science is what, how, where, when

religion is why

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.

Honestly that is by far one of the best short explaination for religion that i've ever heard. Kudos.

The only thing i'll add to that is that it is also a form of discipline that is practiced in order to regulate how we live. But what I don't understand is how people use religion as an excuse to blow shit up.

Honestly that is by far one of the best short explaination for religion that i've ever heard. Kudos.

The only thing i'll add to that is that it is also a form of discipline that is practiced in order to regulate how we live. But what I don't understand is how people use religion as an excuse to blow shit up.

The only thing I forgot to add was "and as a means to teach morals and values."

The problem I have with religion (particularly the hard-core religious people) is them taking every single word as 100% true and accurate.

For me, Religion = Inspirational tool used to guide people as to how to live their lives and to provide hope when things look bleak...

Overall, I see it as a crutch for most people who can't deal with life head on....

As for my views on a higher power, I believe that there is indeed a God... However, I do not believe there is only one set path to following him... I say that people should live their lives as justly as possible, and if the good definately outweighs the bad then God should be willing to let us slide...

No man is expected to be perfect, and God is supposedly ever forgiving after all....

The only thing I forgot to add was "and as a means to teach morals and values."

The problem I have with religion (particularly the hard-core religious people) is them taking every single word as 100% true and accurate.


which is in my point of view- silly.

You cannot translate the nuances of literary works that themselves are translated 4, 5 or 6 times over.

Look at 17th or 18th century writings, in English no less. Most people would not even begin to understand what in the world the author's meant!

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is text meant most likely as a societal guide, appropriate for the times it was written. The common theme is faith, but the method of delivery varied.

For me, Religion = Inspirational tool used to guide people as to how to live their lives and to provide hope when things look bleak...

Overall, I see it as a crutch for most people who can't deal with life head on....

As for my views on a higher power, I believe that there is indeed a God... However, I do not believe there is only one set path to following him... I say that people should live their lives as justly as possible, and if the good definately outweighs the bad then God should be willing to let us slide...

No man is expected to be perfect, and God is supposedly ever forgiving after all....

I hope God negotiates. It would suck if you were at 49 bad and 51 good, he'd press the button and you'd fall right to hell. :D

I'm pretty sure a higher power exists, but we can't access that higher power directly. I do believe that prayer works in certain situations, but I also strongly believe that the higher power won't help you if you aren't willing to help yourself.

which is in my point of view- silly.

You cannot translate the nuances of literary works that themselves are translated 4, 5 or 6 times over.

Look at 17th or 18th century writings, in English no less. Most people would not even begin to understand what in the world the author's meant!

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is text meant most likely as a societal guide, appropriate for the times it was written. The common theme is faith, but the method of delivery varied.

Exactly. That's why we would always bang our heads when debating with YZF. He thinks every single word in the Bible is perfect and it is 100% true. People lived to be 700 years old? You bet! 2 of every animal on the Ark? You bet! Never mind that it's impossible and unrealistic, the Bible is beyond question.

A lot of what's in the bible is str8 up BS. I have christian beliefs, but there's some stuff in there that doesn't make sense, at all. Granted, there are some good points throughout the book, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

You'll have to do a lot of convincing to make me believe water to wine, let alone parting a sea.

A lot of what's in the bible is str8 up BS. I have christian beliefs, but there's some stuff in there that doesn't make sense, at all. Granted, there are some good points throughout the book, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

You'll have to do a lot of convincing to make me believe water to wine, let alone parting a sea.

This sounds like a job for:

http://www.norcalmovies.com/MythBusters/mythbusters-poster.jpg

This sounds like a job for:

http://www.norcalmovies.com/MythBusters/mythbusters-poster.jpg

:D

I'd be nice if they could do a mythbusters episode on parting the sea.

:D

I'd be nice if they could do a mythbusters episode on parting the sea.


Watched something a few years ago. They took a look at the Red sea, and Maps and the moon and all that stuff. and found that at times a sand bar run across some sections and was very close to the top of the water when the moon was right. Not a far stretch to say they hit it at the right time when they went to cross it.

I take the bible as a general guideline on how to act and how to treat other people. The stories in the Bible were used to teach and provide a guidance. You may learn from them and you may not.

The old testment was a History and tells us what happend, it gives a genology, and a history of the people.

I could be a really bad person if I did not keep it in. I know how I should act and try to live that way.


Now I asked a sunday school teacher one time, Who did Cain and Able Marry?????
She did not have a real good answer.

This thread will never take off without Marky here to fight with.

:D

I'd be nice if they could do a mythbusters episode on parting the sea.

Fuck that, show me how to make water into wine (or beer, or tequila...)

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.



Exactly.


I lost motivation for this debate years ago (and i'm quite young)

Watched something a few years ago. They took a look at the Red sea, and Maps and the moon and all that stuff. and found that at times a sand bar run across some sections and was very close to the top of the water when the moon was right. Not a far stretch to say they hit it at the right time when they went to cross it.
and it isn't that much more of a stretch for the authors of that great work of fiction to say he "parted the seas" when really all they did was walk through a few inches of water.

not like many of them could have read in the first place to dispute they way it was being told.

I just sounded off the YZF-R1 signal.

He'll be happy to use his old name and get post counts for the debates.

LOL...Is he still at rx7club?

I saw him on some other site...

Religion, IMO, is a tool for frail/confused minded people into believing in something.

And what/who is god? In primitive tribesman will see an airplaine overhead and thinks that's god... Is high tech ailien could be what everyone (religeous) consideres as god?

God may or may not be real for all i know, what i do know is organized religion has been used for horrible shit throughout history.

God may or may not be real for all i know, what i do know is organized religion has been used for horrible shit throughout history.

Yep...that falls into what I quoted "tool for frail/confused minded people into believing in something"

Christians stoned people for years right after church at 12 PM, and yet this is the largest religion in the world.

Some world we live in, huh.

Christianity is not the largest religion in the world, my friend.

Hindu is. 1 billion (or however many there are, they can't make slurpees worth shit anyway) Indians can't be wrong!!!

Christianity is not the largest religion in the world, my friend.

Hindu is. 1 billion (or however many there are, they can't make slurpees worth shit anyway) Indians can't be wrong!!!

Christians make up 1.9 billion, which would make them the largest religious group. Hindu is the 3rd largest, not first.

EDIT: Muslims are 2nd.

Christians make up 1.9 billion, which would make them the largest religious group. Hindu is the 3rd largest, not first.

EDIT: Muslims are 2nd.

...and they battle amongst themselves... thy shall not kill? :dunno:

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.

fairy tale for adults, kinda like santa and children.

Christians make up 1.9 billion, which would make them the largest religious group. Hindu is the 3rd largest, not first.

EDIT: Muslims are 2nd.

He's right :) I learned all about that in humanities and soc classes.

He's right :) I learned all about that in humanities and soc classes.

Damn Chris you're up late

This sounds like a job for:

http://www.norcalmovies.com/MythBusters/mythbusters-poster.jpg

my religion=Mythbusterianity

The guy on the left is a smart motherfucker.

The guy on the left is a smart motherfucker.

true but he has something stuck up his ass all the damn time

From the looks of the pic, it's the other guys cock.

Christians make up 1.9 billion, which would make them the largest religious group. Hindu is the 3rd largest, not first.

EDIT: Muslims are 2nd.

You must be lumping all the Christian sects (Catholics, Baptists, 7th day adventists, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) into that.

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.
i so totally agree with that since the human mind has troble understanting how it all started so they make up something like god. Just take a look into the roman times they could not explain many things there for there was gods and such. And the best part is all the cristians saying that theres no other life form out there with makes me laugh so hard since if you look at just our galaxy you can put the end of a pen on our solar sistem and it would cover the whole thing and they are trying to tell me thres no way in hell theres any other life form out there I call a big bull shit on that one.

And another thing we thing cristian so theres only god and every one else is wrong but take budist for axample and they think exctly the same thing about the cristians.

I just don't understand how anyone with any level of reasonable intelligence can believe in a god or gods.

I agree with $100T2. I also think it helps people get around that whole "infinity" and "death" thing.

While many religious types frequently accuse scientists of 'playing God', I would argue that human ego has as much to do with Religion as it does with science.

Historically, when major advances in scientific understandings are put forth the religion of the day denounces it as 'heresy'. Why? Because it means that the religious establishment would a) have to admit they were wrong about their explanation of how these things work, or where they came from and b) such an admission would erode some of the religious establishment's power over their followers.

And another thing we thing cristian so theres only god and every one else is wrong but take budist for axample and they think exctly the same thing about the cristians.

you apparently don't know anything about core buddhism.

repeat after me : "buddha is not the buddhist version of god."

buddha is a state of being and a title given to a man that has transcended the cycle of suffering (life and death).

buddhists don't run around saying other religions are wrong and you'll go to hell if you don't believe in buddhism. there's no doctrine in buddhism that states you can't believe in another religion in addition to buddhism.

and the whole thing about christians saying 'there's only one god' relates more to the fact that back in the day, almost all religions had multiple gods. having a single god made judaism/christianity stand out.

i so totally agree with that since the human mind has troble understanting how it all started so they make up something like god.

the human doesn't still doesn't understand where it all came from, so we make up theories like big bang and string theory. which are still not well understood, except perhaps by an elite few in society.

I just don't understand how anyone with any level of reasonable intelligence can believe in a god or gods.

it has nothing to do with intelligence. newsflash: people today are not much smarter on average then people two thousand years ago. we're all just a product of the current culture. if we were all citizens in rome in 300BC, we'd all be believers in the roman pantheon. it just so happens the current culture in alot of areas is anti religion. it has nothing to do with free thinking.

I agree with $100T2. I also think it helps people get around that whole "infinity" and "death" thing.

not really, because for atheists and religious types alike, there is no hard proof of anything after death. whether you think there is an afterlife, or if you believe existence just ends and then theres nothing; these divergent viewpoints are still born of the same blind faith.

Historically, when major advances in scientific understandings are put forth the religion of the day denounces it as 'heresy'. Why? Because it means that the religious establishment would a) have to admit they were wrong about their explanation of how these things work, or where they came from and b) such an admission would erode some of the religious establishment's power over their followers.

this isn't limited to religion. there's always a conservative push against certain new ideas deemed as radical in any circle. this is purely human nature. it probably has more to do with eroding a political powerbase.

and let's not forget... *organized* religion is more of a POLITICAL entity then a religious entity.

you guys have to remember to differentiate an attack on religion vs an attack on organized religion. they rarely coincide.

You must be lumping all the Christian sects (Catholics, Baptists, 7th day adventists, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc) into that.

No matter how you look at it, there's still Christians.

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.


I think it's even a little more than that.

I would describe it as a social construct that arose to fulfil various human needs, both actual and psychological.

I have a friend who has their degree in comparative religion. She had this idea that the commanalities between all the religions were some sort of universal truth.
They are a sort of truth, it really comes out as a list of common human needs/desires.

We want to control things and if we can't do that, we want to at least understand them. We want to capture knowedge and pass it on. We want order within our societies.

The thing that annoys me is that in HS, they teach you Greek mythology, the Roman mythology, and then all of a sudden it stops being mythology. :wtf2:

If people had honest discussions about the historical origins of modern religions, I think there'd be a lot less zealots running around. They'd realize that it's not a list of ACTUAL EVENTS but a set of parables on how to live your life, with a bunch of mysticism thrown in. Then they could still choose to live according to those ideals, without looking stupid by attacking things like evolution.

Personally, I think all religion is just attempts to explain what people didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.


the scientific knowledge that exist today are still all just theories. nothing more. it's funny how we can guess how the world came about... what, 14 billion years ago? we have no CLUE, not one, of how/if man evolved. it's all guesses.

on the other hand, i believe the world is too perfect for things to just evolve over time. it didn't take billions years for all of this to happen.

which is in my point of view- silly.

You cannot translate the nuances of literary works that themselves are translated 4, 5 or 6 times over.

Look at 17th or 18th century writings, in English no less. Most people would not even begin to understand what in the world the author's meant!

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is text meant most likely as a societal guide, appropriate for the times it was written. The common theme is faith, but the method of delivery varied.


tom, you've heard of the king james version. translated in the early 17th century, straight from the original hebrew and greek to english. i wouldn't read anything else.

Exactly. That's why we would always bang our heads when debating with YZF. He thinks every single word in the Bible is perfect and it is 100% true. People lived to be 700 years old? You bet! 2 of every animal on the Ark? You bet! Never mind that it's impossible and unrealistic, the Bible is beyond question.

A lot of what's in the bible is str8 up BS. I have christian beliefs, but there's some stuff in there that doesn't make sense, at all. Granted, there are some good points throughout the book, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

You'll have to do a lot of convincing to make me believe water to wine, let alone parting a sea.


through out the bible, it mentions miracles over and over again. what do you think those are? you don't have to believe the word, that's your decision. to call them "str8 up BS" is ignorant aswell. if you don't believe that's what happened, then don't worry about it and go on with life. if Jesus Christ wasn't who the bible says he was, then he wouldn't be able to do the things he did. God is not your normal joe-blow he can do things normal people can't(which is the whole idea!). what christian beliefs do you have exactly? if you do not believe that God says he was/is and if you do not believe that what he did was true, then you have no belief whatsoever.

i so totally agree with that since the human mind has troble understanting how it all started so they make up something like god. Just take a look into the roman times they could not explain many things there for there was gods and such. And the best part is all the cristians saying that theres no other life form out there with makes me laugh so hard since if you look at just our galaxy you can put the end of a pen on our solar sistem and it would cover the whole thing and they are trying to tell me thres no way in hell theres any other life form out there I call a big bull shit on that one.

And another thing we thing cristian so theres only god and every one else is wrong but take budist for axample and they think exctly the same thing about the cristians.

listen boy, you're next.

before we go on let's get one thing staight, learn how to spell christian. i'm not gunning to be a spelling teacher here, but if you're going to debate a topic, make sure you can get the most important words right. back on topic.

i'd like for you to crack open a bible. keep scanning through and tell me where it stresses that there is NO other life form outside of the planet earth. i'll make it easy for you. what it DOES state is that you are banned from searching for other gods and worshiping them. you are banned from ever trying to search for other 'higher ups' in order to attept to look into the future. etc. etc.

people at that time had no dream of EVER even thinking there could be life outside of earth. they believed that the only way for something else to be out there was if there were supernatural forces. not human beings or ET's.





it's getting hot in here. finally.

listen boy, you're next.

before we go on let's get one thing staight, learn how to spell christian. i'm not gunning to be a spelling teacher here, but if you're going to debate a topic, make sure you can get the most important words right. back on topic.

i'd like for you to crack open a bible. keep scanning through and tell me where it stresses that there is NO other life form outside of the planet earth. i'll make it easy for you. what it DOES state is that you are banned from searching for other gods and worshiping them. you are banned from ever trying to search for other 'higher ups' in order to attept to look into the future. etc. etc.

people at that time had no dream of EVER even thinking there could be life outside of earth. they believed that the only way for something else to be out there was if there were supernatural forces. not human beings or ET's.





it's getting hot in here. finally.


That's definetly a true statement (religion class payed off)...

But going back on topic, religions are a way of people just getting strength in numbers and making them feel "secure".

That's definetly a true statement (religion class payed off)...

But going back on topic, religions are a way of people just getting strength in numbers and making them feel "secure".

religion class? no thanks, i don't go to church...

IF(for the sake of argument) there was no God, i would feel the same way as far as life and death goes. it's not a matter of feeling "secure". i'd feel fine either way, thanks..

the whole "secure" arguement only makes atheists and agnostics feel good about themselves, when they try and label a believer;)

the scientific knowledge that exist today are still all just theories. nothing more. it's funny how we can guess how the world came about... what, 14 billion years ago? we have no CLUE, not one, of how/if man evolved. it's all guesses.


This is an incredibly ignorant piece of rhetoric.
A scientific theory is more than just a guess:
"a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory":"

We have PLENTY of clues how man evolved, it just that ignorant people choose to ignore overwhelming evidence of it.

It's like believing the world is flat. It's just silly.
These people don't have valid scientific criticisms, they just say "it's just a theory".

This is an incredibly ignorant piece of rhetoric.
A scientific theory is more than just a guess:
"a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory":"

We have PLENTY of clues how man evolved, it just that ignorant people choose to ignore overwhelming evidence of it.

It's like believing the world is flat. It's just silly.
These people don't have valid scientific criticisms, they just say "it's just a theory".


that's all you have. just clues. show me this "overwhelming evidence". although these theories are widely accepted, they will never be PROVED. just like you can never prove that God is the creator. even though we are the most dominant life form on the face of the earth, we will never be able to fully explain and PROVE how the earth was created.

nice trying though..

speaking of religions.......what are you thoughts about scientology

scientology is a cult for really famous people

that's all you have. just clues. show me this "overwhelming evidence". although these theories are widely accepted, they will never be PROVED. just like you can never prove that God is the creator. even though we are the most dominant life form on the face of the earth, we will never be able to fully explain and PROVE how the earth was created.

nice trying though..

Don't even bother pretending to be interested in actual evidence.
You've already made up your mind that it "will never be proved."

It's like arguing that the world is round. The evidence is there, the only people who don't accept it are those who aren't interested in the truth anyways.

Or heliocentric vs geocentric, etc. This isn't the first time a bunch of religous crazies have taken up an argument that is simply embarassing.

Bottom line: There has never been one shred of actual evidence to show that there is some higher force that controls our lives. Everything about religion that people believe is from blind faith, a combination of hearsay and their own insecurity. A lot of people grow up with their parents preaching to them, so they naturally follow in their footsteps and have no chance to actually think for themselves and realize it makes NO FUCKING SENSE WHATSOEVER.

Don't even bother pretending to be interested in actual evidence.
You've already made up your mind that it "will never be proved."

It's like arguing that the world is round. The evidence is there, the only people who don't accept it are those who aren't interested in the truth anyways.

Or heliocentric vs geocentric, etc. This isn't the first time a bunch of religous crazies have taken up an argument that is simply embarassing.

Bottom line: There has never been one shred of actual evidence to show that there is some higher force that controls our lives. Everything about religion that people believe is from blind faith, a combination of hearsay and their own insecurity. A lot of people grow up with their parents preaching to them, so they naturally follow in their footsteps and have no chance to actually think for themselves and realize it makes NO FUCKING SENSE WHATSOEVER.



thanks for the proof guys.(or atleast a good argument) all i got out of that was the world is round, which we already know and that i believe in God, because i'm insecure.

thanks for the proof guys.(or atleast a good argument) all i got out of that was the world is round, which we already know and that i believe in God, because i'm insecure.

It's like this guy:
http://www.illstreet.com/forums/t3969-wow,-this-guy-really-got-owned.html

All the evidence is there, it's blindingly obvious, yet they won't fess up to reality.

Post a picture of Tiffany Teen biting an apple with jesus walking on water in the background and then we'll listen to you :rofl:

the difference is i really don't care what you think, let alone an internet forum. won't hurt me one bit.

can we get back to the debate? are you gonna show me something that's gonna change my mind? more than likely not.

the difference is i really don't care what you think, let alone an internet forum. won't hurt me one bit. can we get back to the debate? are you gonna show me something that's gonna change my mind? more than likely not.

Which is what I was saying. You don't care about the evidence.
Which is why there isn't much of a debate.

The actual debate happened over a HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

The remaining holdouts aren't actually interested in a REAL debate on the subject, they simply want a chance to spout off about their archaic religous ideals. These ideals are based on "faith" which has no basis whatsoever in rational debate.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism

Stupid shit like this has held back the progress of humanity for as long as religion has been around. People get to attached to their non-sensical ideas with no basis in reality, then they actually fight legitimate progress.
A lot of great men are subjected to all sorts of attacks because of wacky religious types who take a bunch of parables literally.

Which is what I was saying. You don't care about the evidence.
Which is why there isn't much of a debate.

The actual debate happened over a HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

The remaining holdouts aren't actually interested in a REAL debate on the subject, they simply want a chance to spout off about their archaic religous ideals. These ideals are based on "faith" which has no basis whatsoever in rational debate.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism

Stupid shit like this has held back the progress of humanity for as long as religion has been around. People get to attached to their non-sensical ideas with no basis in reality, then they actually fight legitimate progress.
A lot of great men are subjected to all sorts of attacks because of wacky religious types who take a bunch of parables literally.

take a look at joshua 10 v. 12-14(too long to type)

also

psalm 93 v 1 The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty;
the LORD is robed in majesty
and is armed with strength.
the world is firmly established;
it cannot be moved.

are YOU taking the bible literally? when it says the world is firmly established; it can not be moved, that means the world is here to stay. weather is be rotating on it's axis, in an orbit, or just plain sitting there. God himself never spoke that the earth is the center, nor did he say the sun was. it was never stressed either way in any way. agnostics use these FEW verses to try and label the Bible of sending the wrong message.

both of these 'authors' explained what they saw and felt. neither of those who wrote these chapters knew nothing about the solar system. the Bible is neither geocentric nor heliocentric. and does not suggest either.

if you lived 2000+ years ago, would you know the difference? could you look into a telescope and tell your wife or father how the planets worked with the sun? that's what i thought.

the whole debate that happend years ago was a part of the catholic church, who had heads stuck up their asses so far, they were popping through their shoulders. which i am NOT a part of and think the views are frankly, retarded.

agnostics use these FEW verses to try and label the Bible of sending the wrong message.

I use the fact that church leaders tortured anyone who said the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe to label them as sending the wrong message.

The church once claimed that only things in the heavens moved in arcs, whereas things on Earth moved in straight lines. Then someone pointed out that to aim a cannonball, you have to angle the barrel up so it can arc over the field and down onto the enemy. After he was tortured to death, others pointed out the same thing. The church eventually realised they were wrong and revised their doctrine.

This is but one example of the Church teaching falsehoods, then later pretending they never said any such thing. Mikolai Kopernic was also shown the thumb screws, yet we see the works of Copernicus (same guy - their real names were often changed to Latin in the records) as those of one of the most brilliant scientific minds of his day.

The very definition of faith is belief in something despite lack of evidence, or evidence to the contrary. The irony lies in how misplaced the faith often is. While only a handful of people were killed for 'witchcraft' in Salem, the witch hunts were a 400 year reighn of terror in Europe. And ya know what? The original bible said thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live. Not witch, poisoner. one poorly translated word and tens of thousands of people are killed in the name of some self-righteous worshippers of the lower case t. So if that phrase is wrong, what else in the bible people claim is the 'word of God' is actually crap? Quite a bit.

The Ten Commandments also vary from bible to bible. The Hebrew and Protestant commandments are fairly close to each other, but the Catholics found that bit about not worshipping false idols nor images, and no other gods but Me, etc. to contradict their fetish for worshipping statues of the pseudo-goddess Mary (usually clothed in blue, to represent the Sea, because although the Trinity filled the need of some for rudimentary polytheism early Christians, often Fishermen, needed a sea god to worship too). So instead of saying 'don't worship Mary, God says such worship makes Him jealous' they decided to simply edit the 10 Commandments. Convenient, no?

There's so little left of the original hebrew text in the modern bible that to call it the unchanging, unquestionable word of God is all but laughable.

I use the fact that church leaders tortured anyone who said the Earth wasn't the centre of the universe to label them as sending the wrong message.

The church once claimed that only things in the heavens moved in arcs, whereas things on Earth moved in straight lines. Then someone pointed out that to aim a cannonball, you have to angle the barrel up so it can arc over the field and down onto the enemy. After he was tortured to death, others pointed out the same thing. The church eventually realised they were wrong and revised their doctrine.

This is but one example of the Church teaching falsehoods, then later pretending they never said any such thing. Mikolai Kopernic was also shown the thumb screws, yet we see the works of Copernicus (same guy - their real names were often changed to Latin in the records) as those of one of the most brilliant scientific minds of his day.

The very definition of faith is belief in something despite lack of evidence, or evidence to the contrary. The irony lies in how misplaced the faith often is. While only a handful of people were killed for 'witchcraft' in Salem, the witch hunts were a 400 year reighn of terror in Europe. And ya know what? The original bible said thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live. Not witch, poisoner. one poorly translated word and tens of thousands of people are killed in the name of some self-righteous worshippers of the lower case t. So if that phrase is wrong, what else in the bible people claim is the 'word of God' is actually crap? Quite a bit.

The Ten Commandments also vary from bible to bible. The Hebrew and Protestant commandments are fairly close to each other, but the Catholics found that bit about not worshipping false idols nor images, and no other gods but Me, etc. to contradict their fetish for worshipping statues of the pseudo-goddess Mary (usually clothed in blue, to represent the Sea, because although the Trinity filled the need of some for rudimentary polytheism early Christians, often Fishermen, needed a sea god to worship too). So instead of saying 'don't worship Mary, God says such worship makes Him jealous' they decided to simply edit the 10 Commandments. Convenient, no?

There's so little left of the original hebrew text in the modern bible that to call it the unchanging, unquestionable word of God is all but laughable.

i agree with your post 100%. fact of the matter is, the bible has been misused in so many ways, it's SAD. throughout history religion has had its extreme views. christianity itself has so many 'subgroups', it's laughable.

the KJV is ALL i go by. not the church, not the NAB, NIV, etc. please, do not confuse me with the other freaks. thank you. what happened in the past does not represent God's way. it's like the black man says to the present day white man: "what the hell is your problem? why did you do this to us?"

the Bible is neither geocentric nor heliocentric. and does not suggest either.

Funny how that's not what many people thought until it was blindingly obvious they were wrong....

if you lived 2000+ years ago, would you know the difference? could you look into a telescope and tell your wife or father how the planets worked with the sun? that's what i thought.


WTF does it matter if *I* could? The point is there was actually someone out there smart enough to do it and he persecuted by a bunch of jackasses who put a book before REALITY.

the whole debate that happend years ago was a part of the catholic church, who had heads stuck up their asses so far, they were popping through their shoulders. which i am NOT a part of and think the views are frankly, retarded.

Yet here you are saying things like:


the scientific knowledge that exist today are still all just theories. nothing more. it's funny how we can guess how the world came about... what, 14 billion years ago? we have no CLUE, not one, of how/if man evolved. it's all guesses.


Frankly, that's retarded. We have TONS of clues, it's just that certain people are willfully ignorant.

Funny how that's not what many people thought until it was blindingly obvious they were wrong....

not really funny at all. what are you trying to get at with this?


WTF does it matter if *I* could? The point is there was actually someone out there smart enough to do it and he persecuted by a bunch of jackasses who put a book before REALITY.

who's persecuting now? certainly not me. again, where are you trying to go with this? you keep bringing back things that happened in the past. things at which people took the book and made it into something it wasn't. unholy people. people who took the word of God and molded them into their politically extreme agendas.


Yet here you are saying things like:

Frankly, that's retarded. We have TONS of clues, it's just that certain people are willfully ignorant.

there are still many questions that need to be answered on these theories and "clues"(feel better now?) until you or someone else finds out what REALLY happend "billions of years ago" my mind won't change. as it shouldn't.

Funny how that's not what many people thought until it was blindingly obvious they were wrong....

this has more to do with the general ideas and education of the era. if you want to blame someone, blame aristotle. the church likes to resist new ideas because it erodes their power base. and remember back in those days, the church was more of a political entity then a religious one.

WTF does it matter if *I* could? The point is there was actually someone out there smart enough to do it and he persecuted by a bunch of jackasses who put a book before REALITY.

that's fine, i also think the church is filled with stupid jackasses.

Frankly, that's retarded. We have TONS of clues, it's just that certain people are willfully ignorant.

willfully ignorant?

bible : god creates the universe. the end.
science : there is a big bang, and space expands for the rest of eternity. the end. it's 100% impossible to determine what happened before the big bang.

bible : god created people out of like, dirt and dust and crap.
science : theres a big cloud of dust, composed of mostly hydrogen, helium, and a good mixture of heavier elements; produced from the supernova of a long dead star (or maybe a few of them). the cloud of dust forms into clumps of dust. the biggest clump becomes the sun, the rest of the clumps form planets and moons and rocks and crap. life starts on earth, but science doesn't know how. a very long time later, people appear! WOW.

therefore, bazillions of years ago, the little atoms and stuff that make up your physical body was just dust floating around in space. even before that, the heavier elements that would eventually make up your body and make life possible were manufactured by the collapsing core of a star bound to go supernova.

we're stardust j0.

it is entirely possible to reconcile the two beliefs into one, as many people do. you know there are christian physicists and astronomers out there, right? it's not a rare thing.

I believe everything in the bible is 100% true. I think God and spiritual things can be explain scientifically, just we dont have the technology to do it right now.

If a caveman saw a modern TV, he would think it was supernatural, since it is totally unexplainable to him. Likewise, right now, some of the spiritual stuff in the Bible seems unexplainable, because we dont know how it works.

I am sure spiritual things can be explained scientifically, just we dont have the technology to study it. It could be that spiritual beings exist in a parallel universe or something, and they have the abliity to slip in and out of our universe, and can manipulate our laws of physics and time, etc. And maybe we have a footprint in the other parallel universe, which we call a soul, and when our body dies in this universe, it frees footprint in the parallel universe and can go to heaven or hell. and heaven and hell is also a scientific phenomena, that we cannot understand, because they can not be explained in our terms of reality.






just some food for thought


I just think the message of jesus in the bible is cool, because it is the exact opposite of every human tendency. Humans are always trying to make deals to get what they want, the message of the bible is that you cant make deals with god, you have nothing to offer him, yet he will forgive you. I just think that is awesome.



Im not trying to force my beliefs on anybody, im just throwing it out there.
People can believe what they want, just dont come crying to me in the afterlife saying i didnt warn you...lol

If he created me, then that foo' should know my next joke. Fuck his ass. :rofl:

There is NO god. Period. Realize how youve been brainwashed and realize the TRUTH. damn

Just wanna say thanks to all the -good- posts in this thread (re: valid points and arguments) as I am sorta searching right now. At a point in my life where I need some direction.

Continue on.

I believe everything in the bible is 100% true. I think God and spiritual things can be explain scientifically, just we dont have the technology to do it right now.Or it's just pure horseshit...

Noah's ark. Case closed.

How did they fit all those dinos on that boat? After all T-REX must be a vegan and on diet?

And imagine gathering all God's creatures great and small.

There is NO spoon. Period. Realize how youve been brainwashed and realize the TRUTH. damn


Fixed.

There is NO god. Period. Realize how youve been brainwashed and realize the TRUTH. damn

staring truth in the face and not knowing it sucks. But you can believe what you want, i can respect your opinion. I just think its amazing how people can live in a world as complex as this, and think that we came about by accident. A design points to a designer.

Example: Is it just coincidence our atmosphere filters out almost every frequency range of radiation except for light frequencies? Without light, we would never survive.

How did they fit all those dinos on that boat? After all T-REX must be a vegan and on diet?

And imagine gathering all God's creatures great and small.

That is probably why dinosaurs dont exist today, and why so many are fossilized (mud slides from flood waters?). The dimensions given in the bible for the ark are about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall. Thats 1 and 1/2 football fields long, 4 stories tall, thats plenty of room for 2 of every animal that exists today.

k there are over 1.3 million KNOWN species of animals on Earth today.. you're telling me that it's reasonable for 2.6 million animals to fit onto 6 football fields? :bsflag:

k there are over 1.3 million KNOWN species of animals on Earth today.. you're telling me that it's reasonable for 2.6 million animals to fit onto 6 football fields? :bsflag:



Thats the smartest thing I think I heard you say;)

These religious debates always turn into trying to disprove a bunch of individual events/statements in the bible, but i guess ill play along.


k there are over 1.3 million KNOWN species of animals on Earth today.. you're telling me that it's reasonable for 2.6 million animals to fit onto 6 football fields? :bsflag:


Taken from http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/animalark.html]

Noah's Ark was three stories high (Genesis 6:16). This made its total deck area equivalent to the area of about 36 lawn tennis courts. The average size of animal is about the size of an adult sheep. From this, scientists have calculated that the Ark could have held about 522 railroad stock cars full of sheep-sized animals. This is eight freight trains with 65 carriages on each!

Remember too that not every creature had to go on the Ark. Fish and other sea creatures didn't go on, and they account for a very large percentage of the world's animals. It was only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals that went on the Ark — and even many of them are very small, such as spiders, worms, beetles, etc.

When we realize that not every shade of butterfly, snake, kangaroo, or whatever had to go on board — just major “kinds” — we find that there might have been only about 35,000 animals on board.

So the question is not so much how did they all fit, but what did Noah use all the left-over room for?

These religious debates always turn into trying to disprove a bunch of individual events/statements in the bible, but i guess ill play along.


You're the one who brought it up.. and most water-dwelling creatures can either survive only in salt water or only in fresh water, so depending on whether the "flood" was salty or not, he would've had to have brought SOME animals who live in water to keep them from dying off. So was there an aquarium on the ark too?

The ark stuff is obvious nonsense.
Besides all the REALLY obvious logical holes, you're a total retard (Christian or not) if you don't realize stories like that are allegorical.

agreed

The Ten Commandments also vary from bible to bible. The Hebrew and Protestant commandments are fairly close to each other, but the Catholics found that bit about not worshipping false idols nor images, and no other gods but Me, etc. to contradict their fetish for worshipping statues of the pseudo-goddess Mary (usually clothed in blue, to represent the Sea, because although the Trinity filled the need of some for rudimentary polytheism early Christians, often Fishermen, needed a sea god to worship too). So instead of saying 'don't worship Mary, God says such worship makes Him jealous' they decided to simply edit the 10 Commandments. Convenient, no?
Images of the Virgin Mary are not worshipped (at least in the modern era). Rather- she is prayed through for support. Most of it came about due to her ascension into heaven while still living. It is believed she was accepted into Heaven because of her devotion and reverence, and it is that strength that is usually called upon. Sort of a trans-medium hotline to God (Go ask your mother ;) )

As for the blue? Maybe there was some regards to 'the sea' many moons ago, but there is little, if any reference to it now (at least in my landlocked parish).

^ so the all must come to the father through ME means nothing? you cant pray through marry thats just stupid. Im not even a christian and that makes no sense to me.

^ so the all must come to the father through ME means nothing? you cant pray through marry thats just stupid. Im not even a christian and that makes no sense to me.
Of course it does. Catholics don't exclusively pray through Mary to God. They believe the same thing every other Christian believes- the Trinity.

Have you ever been in a situation where you find yourself silently asking for the support and guidance of a deceased loved one? When my childhood was rough- I used to ask for guidance from my great-grandpa, as he was kindest most level headed family figure I knew and was literally the glue that held the family together.

I'm not worshipping him, I'm praying to him for help. Literally, there is not much difference in praying to Mary (which is to God).

You're the one who brought it up.. and most water-dwelling creatures can either survive only in salt water or only in fresh water, so depending on whether the "flood" was salty or not, he would've had to have brought SOME animals who live in water to keep them from dying off. So was there an aquarium on the ark too?


There can be Pockets of Fresh water in Salt water.

There can be Pockets of Fresh water in Salt water.I think there are pockets of fresh water in your brain... :D

Religion. What is religion? Religion is interpretation of documents. All systems of churches in all eras of time have had errors. Why? They're humans and like all other humans, they make mistakes when interpreting.

The misinterpretations could be from several reasons. Blatant ignorance, language barriers, or one of the more common today which is interpreting religious documents to control people. There are way too many religious cults out for the sole purpose of personal gain and finances. I'm not talking about the idiots that think spaceships are flying behind comets to pick them up and take them to heaven. I'm referring more to Catholicism, protestant churches, and the Muslim religion.

- Let's start with ignorance. No one can argue that humans haven't progressed. We inherit all knowledge that generations before us discovered. We take that knowledge and build on it. Original interpretations of the religious documents were shaped by their understanding of science at the time and "common sense" of that era of time, and unfortunately many of these interpretations still exist today.

- Language barriers. Anyone bilingual can understand that when converting languages, sentence structures and grammar are impossible to keep 100% correct. English is said to be one of the harder languages to learn.
i.e.: "He is going to the store." would be English. When converting to other languages, it can come out as "To the store, he is." There's an uncountable amount of differences between English and other languages that could affect meanings more than the example listed above.

Also, no one can argue that meanings of words don't change by the decade. A good example, is one that is used all to common on this forum, "fag." Did fag mean "gay" in a derogatory manner more than 20 years ago? No. Also, consider dialect. In England, English is obviously spoken, but their dialect and terms are much more different than here in America. The same with Australia and other regions. Whether it be by region or era of time, dialect can play a huge role in the interpretation of languages.

- I tend to see the control and/or profit making from people as the large problem with churches today. They preach and take pride in standing for one thing, but do another. Why are some people so anxious to point fingers and try to convict others? Because that's what they're receiving in their religious institutions. They are controlled by fear, chances for social advancement, and isolation. Consider how middle-eastern people twist the peaceful Muslim faith into grounds for mass murder.

I believe the best way is for individuals to make their own decisions. There will always be people that will take advantage of you if you're interested in religion. Your money spends just as well as anyone else's. Do the research, look at all sides, and come up with what makes sense to you. Read the documents and interpret them by YOURSELF. Get an education in science and apply that to your choice of faith. See where it all takes you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, my personal opinion. As stated above, interpretations are stretched and formed to control people. Read the bible, and you will see that much of what people preach as "rock solid" is fairly sketchy and leaves room for a median between it and science. Am I denouncing the bible or science? No I am not. I do not have the intellect or knowledge to do either. A big interest is creation. Genesis does not cover it fully, it's VERY broad, and leaves soooooooo much room that some science theories could possibly fit in with it. Could parts of the bible be symbolic? It's a possibility, but as stated, I am not capable of determining that, but it is a possibility.

I do believe in God. I do not think Christians of today are Christ-like at all. Jesus was a humble man. He turned the other cheek, he didn't argue. Jesus helped those that let him. Jesus suffered persecution, and asked for the forgiveness of those persecuting him. The bible says that no man is to condemn the other. Yet, you see "Christians" screaming "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL." The same thing with Muslims, their Koran instructs them to be peaceful, but there's extremists everywhere. The way the bible instructs its followers to act, is not how I see Christians acting.

My point in all of this is, most of "religion" is misinterpreted for one reason or the other. Don't turn your back on the idea of God or the bible because of the way many of its followers are acting today, and have acted in the past. If people were to act like the bible teaches, the world would be a much safer, cleaner, and better place to live.

I am by no means a scholar of the bible or a scientist. This is just my 2 cents.

When we realize that not every shade of butterfly, snake, kangaroo, or whatever had to go on board — just major “kinds” — we find that there might have been only about 35,000 animals on board.
----
K... so do you believe in evolution as well? Because if he did only take one "kind" of every animal, where did all these multiple species come from? Every species basically IS its own kind of animal in itself, because it cannot breed with other species (i.e. produce viable offspring), even if they are the same "type" of animal.

And about the "pockets of fresh water in salt water" being a means for all creatures in water to have survived, that's complete and utter bullshit, and you know it.

there are pockets of fresh water in the ocean typically around areas where streams and rivers run into the ocean. When said streams and rivers are also under water due to a deluge, that fresh water supply is neutralized and contaminated by salt water.

I found a pocket of fresh ice-water in my glass of bourbon last night.

the genesis flood was not global.

religion = control simple..

religion = control simple..

uhh, good one...

I love these threads. they are so misconstrued.

My beliefs are:
Evolution= god created everything. nowhere does it say he didnt do it over time. in genesis it says that god created everything in a day each. however, god also created the heavens and the earth/ day and night. what was a day before god created the 24 hour cycle of light and dark? very possible that it was some time in the process. what is a day to god?

The bible= i beleive the bible to be accurate and historical. i beleive that god is powerful enought that if he wanted the bible to be accurate beyond mans ability to distort then it is possible. however, the bible is not verbatim a rule book(some of it is) but is rather a GUIDE to live life by. the parables and everything are not meant to be straight rules but rather senarios to fit life in a number of different ways. thus the reason why you can read on passage two days in a row and get a different meaning each day. It is meant to be read with common sense and intuition, a concept far to complicated for some sheep. this is the reason for preachers or preists.

Out reach= i beleive that a man called jesus was sent from god to die for our sins so that we didnt have to sacrifice and do all of the old testament attonment for sin. i beleive that he died and rose agian. this was to insure that everyone had equal opportunity and right to talk to god directly, through him/his death.

i think that jesus was a teacher like the bile described and not a dictator. i belive that a person has the CHOICE to accept or deny this belief/ religion. many people try to beat "religion" into people and MAKE them acept it. this couldnt be more wrong. It says in the bible that as christians we are to plant the seed and tell everyone about the events of the bible. the people you see on your average campus yelling and chastizing people are wrong. it even says so in the bible.

the way i do things and beleive is by faith and respect. I have faith that what i beleive is true cause it has been proven in my own life. i aslo respect the fact that you may not beleive or have had the same personal experiences that i may have had. I have been shown in a very real way that god exsists and dont see many conflicts with mans "theorys" either. All it takes is a little understanding and an open mind.

This is just my view on the real christian faith. Too many people get cause up in the political atmosphere of the religion and forget the message behind it. treat others as you would want to be treated and live a good life having faith that it will not be all for nothing when you die. its not that complicated really. hell is not a punishment for your mistakes but rather a decision made by you. god has offered a free get out of jail card... all you have to do is take it and say youll do the best you can in life.

All i ask is that the people who are cynical and disbelieving is to not lump all christians(or any other "religion" for that matter) into the pot with the fanatics and fire starters. there are some decent smart people who believe in these things as well. the problem is that they are not known cause the idiots and "religious" people always get the attention cause thats what there after in the first place.

i couldn't agree more. the reason why there are so many atheists and agnostics on this board is because they hear so much crap of how alot of christians force their beliefs on other people.

then they get mad at people like you and me and start to make fun of the word and what we believe. it's simple. people now days don't like to be told what to do, or what we should believe in. or even if it's only SUGGESTED to them once. they don't like the idea of some God watching every move that we make, so they come back with statements like in this thread. "religion is for the weak minded"... "it's mind control" etc. they try to bring us, and what we believe in, down. this thread brings up no real debates... it's just a childish name calling fest.

paging dr. honegod.....;)

The bible= i beleive the bible to be accurate and historical. i beleive that god is powerful enought that if he wanted the bible to be accurate beyond mans ability to distort then it is possible. however, the bible is not verbatim a rule book(some of it is) but is rather a GUIDE to live life by. the parables and everything are not meant to be straight rules but rather senarios to fit life in a number of different ways. thus the reason why you can read on passage two days in a row and get a different meaning each day. It is meant to be read with common sense and intuition, a concept far to complicated for some sheep. this is the reason for preachers or preists.

which bible? There are real and substantial differences between different 'editions'. For example, the 10 Commandments according to Catholic bibles are vastly different than the 10 Commandments in Protestant or Hebrew bibles.

i couldn't agree more. the reason why there are so many atheists and agnostics on this board is because they hear so much crap of how alot of christians force their beliefs on other people.

I tried and tried but just can't make any sense out of this statement... :confused:

then they get mad at people like you and me and start to make fun of the word and what we believe. it's simple. people now days don't like to be told what to do, or what we should believe in. or even if it's only SUGGESTED to them once. they don't like the idea of some God watching every move that we make, so they come back with statements like in this thread. "religion is for the weak minded"... "it's mind control" etc. they try to bring us, and what we believe in, down. this thread brings up no real debates... it's just a childish name calling fest.

This couldn't be further from the truth. The notion that people become atheists because they simply "don't like the idea of some God watching every move" is just nonsense, right up there with the whole "atheists are just mad at God" bit.

The main reason these arguments turn bloody, at least IMO, is because the entire concept behind Christianity is "Believe as I do or you're doomed to suffer an eternity of torture". It's not just a matter of suggesting your beliefs to others, and then letting them live in peace. You guys are convinced that those who do not accept your doctrines, and do not believe in the entities you believe in, are doomed to spend an eternal afterlife suffering horribly in hell. Never ending torture, fire and brimstone, the whole nine yards. And why? Merely for exercising their freedom of conscience! In fact, it's amazing how very many of you get this sick satisfaction believing so! "Oh, he won't believe what I tell him. That's okay because boy will he be sorry one day! *snicker*". What kind of person takes pleasure in believing someone will suffer horribly for eternity merely for not believing what they do? I personally nowadays let it all roll off my shoulders but this attitude alone can probably account for the majority of bloody "debates" that take place with others.

To this effect, the entire concept of Hell is utter nonsense. Think about it, what could one human being possibly do to truly warrant ETERNAL torture and suffering? Not believing in your God? Killing someone? Molesting children? Mass murder? I maintain that NOTHING can warrant suffering of this caliber. I mean really, what's the point? After a few million years for the worst crimes the message might have been made clear, but eternal? Never ending?

This concept alone is why I would never accept the Christian God, or any other god(s) that ruled existance this way, even if they were proven to exist. If God came down to me tonight and said "Hey Ed, here I am. The bible is true and all the non-followers will be going to hell for eternity, wha'chu gonna do about it?" I would look him in the eye, smile, and :moon: his evil ass. Hell is a concept of pure evil, purported by a truly evil being (God), and since I align myself with true goodness and true righteousness I will never accept or worship this being. I would rather suffer eternity in hell in the name of good than kneel and worship this being of pure evil.

That, among many other reasons, is why I am an atheist. It has nothing to do with simply "not liking ideas".

Im not sure of the differences that you speak of but i have seen the king james, niv, etc etc and they may have different wording but the same basic commandments. I know there are some differences but the main points of the bible are in all of them. the only way to heaven is to accept that jesus died to take the sin you may commit and all you have to do is ask for that.

I personally dont see the major deal with that it is so simple and uncomplicated except for the fact that it requires faith and beleiveing in something without a physical presence(oxymoron). its fine if you dont believe and i dont think less of anyone that doent...ITS YOUR CHOICE!! there are a lot of other things in the bible to show the way to live a good life and do the best you can but that is the only one that is heaven or hell since the old testament(revelation, last 3 verses being the only other).

this may sound a little untrusting, but its the only way i can really describe the way i would say to look at it for someone who hasnt ever realized that theres something bigger than all of us out there. Would you rather say "thats stupid and be wrong(hell, fire, burning fore eternity Etc) or give it a shot(an honest shot to work in your life) and live in heaven which could be the bible describes, the best place imagineable and more! I choose to beleive in something more than this crap hole of an earth that WE'VE made not god, and accept that it exsists in a very real way. he gave us the choice all along from adam and eve right on and WE the poulation have screwed it up. I dont blame god for the bad stuff in the world cause ive seen the good he does.

For instance, my wife had a golf ball sized tumor in her brain that grew over time. we prayed a lot and she prapared for the worst when she went to the doctor. all gone, not a trace. in 2 weeks! also i was in a wreck where the truck i was in was totaled around me and my two freinds. the cab was totally protected(81 f100, damage from the right front corner to the fr taillight) not a scratch. on and on i could go and i even have pictures of some things. I am not beleiving some of the things that happen in this world are "just because" and they have no scientific reasoning either. I am an average person who doesnt accept this stuff easily but it has been proven to me over and over. If you honestly veiw some things with an open mind you may too. I know i sound like a fanatic but it is just that real to me and if you knew me you would know that i dont say these kind of things lightley.

However i dont want you to or expect you to take the word of some random person on the internet. find out for yourself and find a church where people are not into the "religion" of it but rather acually try to have a relationship with god. there are good people and bad people in christianity like everything else and it is a shame that we all get labeled in peoples eyes because of someones bad experience with "religion".

god / jesus is a PERSONAL relationship and everyones can be different. dont base ideas on someone elses views or mistakes. christians are people too and we make mistakes like everyone. i know i do at least. Christianity is not about being better than anyone else or anyone elses religion, its about you and your life. i normally dont respond to these things that much but i wanted to tell everyone my veiws and stick up for the people who are not trying to beat you up with "religion". There are people out there like that.

I tried and tried but just can't make any sense out of this statement... :confused:



This couldn't be further from the truth. The notion that people become atheists because they simply "don't like the idea of some God watching every move" is just nonsense, right up there with the whole "atheists are just mad at God" bit.

The main reason these arguments turn bloody, at least IMO, is because the entire concept behind Christianity is "Believe as I do or you're doomed to suffer an eternity of torture". It's not just a matter of suggesting your beliefs to others, and then letting them live in peace. You guys are convinced that those who do not accept your doctrines, and do not believe in the entities you believe in, are doomed to spend an eternal afterlife suffering horribly in hell. Never ending torture, fire and brimstone, the whole nine yards. And why? Merely for exercising their freedom of conscience! In fact, it's amazing how very many of you get this sick satisfaction believing so! "Oh, he won't believe what I tell him. That's okay because boy will he be sorry one day! *snicker*". What kind of person takes pleasure in believing someone will suffer horribly for eternity merely for not believing what they do? I personally nowadays let it all roll off my shoulders but this attitude alone can probably account for the majority of bloody "debates" that take place with others.

To this effect, the entire concept of Hell is utter nonsense. Think about it, what could one human being possibly do to truly warrant ETERNAL torture and suffering? Not believing in your God? Killing someone? Molesting children? Mass murder? I maintain that NOTHING can warrant suffering of this caliber. I mean really, what's the point? After a few million years for the worst crimes the message might have been made clear, but eternal? Never ending?

This concept alone is why I would never accept the Christian God, or any other god(s) that ruled existance this way, even if they were proven to exist. If God came down to me tonight and said "Hey Ed, here I am. The bible is true and all the non-followers will be going to hell for eternity, wha'chu gonna do about it?" I would look him in the eye, smile, and :moon: his evil ass. Hell is a concept of pure evil, purported by a truly evil being (God), and since I align myself with true goodness and true righteousness I will never accept or worship this being. I would rather suffer eternity in hell in the name of good than kneel and worship this being of pure evil.

That, among many other reasons, is why I am an atheist. It has nothing to do with simply "not liking ideas".

You seem to think of hell as a punishment but its your choice. i think of it like this...
We were given a perfect world(if you grant that the bible is true for a few minutes) and WE screwed it up more that once over and over. given that fact god DID come down to earth and say "here i am" but he didnt do it to taunt you. he did it cause he realized that the people he created were needing a better choice. jesus died so that you dont have to do anything but say "ok, cool, i see what you did. thanks and ill try to live up to your expectation knowing that i may fail from time to time. but i also know that its ok cause you already paid that dept so to speak.

Its kind of like if your grandfather accured a huge dept on some property that was the only place you could ever live the rest of your life out. when the time comes and you have to move out of your current appartment you can either go there or the crackhead projects, all you have to do to resolve the dept is say sorry to the dept holder( cause your father paid the price for you but wanted you to realize it) and not even a penny out of your pocket. what would you do in that situation? i know where i am living!

You seem to think of hell as a punishment but its your choice. i think of it like this...
We were given a perfect world(if you grant that the bible is true for a few minutes) and WE screwed it up more that once over and over. given that fact god DID come down to earth and say "here i am" but he didnt do it to taunt you. he did it cause he realized that the people he created were needing a better choice. jesus died so that you dont have to do anything but say "ok, cool, i see what you did. thanks and ill try to live up to your expectation knowing that i may fail from time to time. but i also know that its ok cause you already paid that dept so to speak.

Its kind of like if your grandfather accured a huge dept on some property that was the only place you could ever live the rest of your life out. when the time comes and you have to move out of your current appartment you can either go there or the crackhead projects, all you have to do to resolve the dept is say sorry to the dept holder and not even a penny out of your pocket. what would you do in that situation? i know where i am living!


It doesn't matter. The entire notion that someone should suffer horrible torture for eternity is EVIL and WRONG. Period. Especially for something as petty as not believing a certain way. Anyone who tries to justify eternal torture is also evil, to a degree.

If you worship the Christian god, you worship pure, unfiltered evil.

Well, i have my opinion and you have yours. i was merely telling you what i beleive. as far as the evil part goes that could be but that also means that you beleive in a fairy tale world of no concequences for an action. if you steal you get punished, kill, also= punished etc etc. why do you not expect any difference in the "afterlife". I am not trying to start trouble and am also not trying to press MY veiws on you, but no one(per the bible) should chastize you for not beleiving. christians are just supposed to get a message accrossed that there are real consequences for YOUR choice in this matter. Its kind of a moot point if you dont beleive but i just wanted to say that not everyone who beleives is a look downer or a bible thumper. sorry if i offended you or if the idea of consequences offends you. its kind of silly to think that after all the chioces weve been given in life that there wont be any repercussions for them. most beliefs have a reward/consequece system in them. are they Evil as well?

By the way, Satan is the EVIL you speak of not god. he is evil becuase of the very consequeces that i just talked about. I wanted to clarify that point. God doent send you there, you choose. Its all in the book...written down. All that is needed is faith in the fact that you are something more than a lump of cells aimlessly wandering the earth til you die. also that god cares about that fact and has your back.

Well, i have my opinion and you have yours. i was merely telling you what i beleive. as far as the evil part goes that could be but that also means that you beleive in a fairy tale world of no concequences for an action. if you steal you get punished, kill, also= punished etc etc. why do you not expect any difference in the "afterlife". I am not trying to start trouble and am also not trying to press MY veiws on you, but no one(per the bible) should chastize you for not beleiving. christians are just supposed to get a message accrossed that there are real consequences for YOUR choice in this matter. Its kind of a moot point if you dont beleive but i just wanted to say that not everyone who beleives is a look downer or a bible thumper. sorry if i offended you or if the idea of consequences offends you. its kind of silly to think that after all the chioces weve been given in life that there wont be any repercussions for them. most beliefs have a reward/consequece system in them. are they Evil as well?

Punishments carry a lesson to be learned, or a debt to be repaid. Eternal, neverending torture is neither. It is cruelty and nothing more. Any being that would inflict it upon someone is a horrible, evil being.

Christianity = evil, whether you realize it or not.


By the way, Satan is the EVIL you speak of not god. he is evil becuase of the very consequeces that i just talked about. I wanted to clarify that point. God doent send you there, you choose. Its all in the book...written down. All that is needed is faith in the fact that you are something more than a lump of cells aimlessly wandering the earth til you die. also that god cares about that fact and has your back.

It's funny because in the Bible, Satan doesn't actually do anything that is truly evil. I challenge you to post something Satan does that you think is evil. And simply "going against God" does not = evil in this case.

And you're wrong, by your own book, with regards to God sending you to hell. You are judged and then sent to where he chooses to send you. Have you even actually read your bible before?

Sorry, but if you are choosing to beleive for a second that this could be the case... Satan did very clearly go agiant god and went as far as to call himself god. also you are not the end all expert on evil as i am not the expert on the bible. i am explaining my veiw as i saw some people with questions as to why we beleive that way. you have the right to feel whatever way you wish. i dont have any hard feelings or think any less of you but i dont appreciate the way you express it. if you wish to enter a debate arm your self with the ammo you need. god gave us a choice, all you have to do is accept or not. you obviously choose not. ok im over it but its YOUR choice not gods. he gave that to us in the garden of eden after satan went agianst him then as well and tried(succesfully) to turn a good thing bad. it was adam and eves CHOICE though so he is not all to blame. There are two sides to this issue and one has given a way to end it and that is god. it is acually quite simple if you can look past the notion that something ominous is being done to you and realize that you are in control.

sorry the world is not perfect. it once was and that is our own fault. i cant say its just adam and eves fault cause i have purposfully done wrong in my life too so it might have been me if no one else before me. I am not perfect but i have acepted that and asked for the forgiveness that was offered to me so long ago. MY CHOICE. it was not forced on me and i gladly made it with out hesitation because i believed. This is not an issue of god punishing you but you making a choice for yourself. And by the way if im wrong i will be the first to admit it when the time comes but unfortunately that will be kind of too late to take it back if i chose not to beleive. i will have had all my life to make it by gods word and when its over i dont think its unfair that he keeps it.

Sorry, but if you are choosing to beleive for a second that this could be the case... Satan did very clearly go agiant god and went as far as to call himself god. also you are not the end all expert on evil as i am not the expert on the bible. i am explaining my veiw as i saw some people with questions as to why we beleive that way. you have the right to feel whatever way you wish. i dont have any hard feelings or think any less of you but i dont appreciate the way you express it. if you wish to enter a debate arm your self with the ammo you need. god gave us a choice, all you have to do is accept or not. you obviously choose not. ok im over it but its YOUR choice not gods. he gave that to us in the garden of eden after satan went agianst him then as well and tried(succesfully) to turn a good thing bad. it was adam and eves CHOICE though so he is not all to blame. There are two sides to this issue and one has given a way to end it and that is god. it is acually quite simple if you can look past the notion that something ominous is being done to you and realize that you are in control.

See, that's the thing. You don't have to be an EXPERT to know right from wrong, and good from evil. In fact, it's one of the simplest concepts known to man, but people like yourself are so blinded by your dogma that it goes right over your head.

Sorry that you don't like how I "express it" but that's not going to change. Your God and your belief system are evil, plain and simple.


sorry the world is not perfect. it once was and that is our own fault. i cant say its just adam and eves fault cause i have purposfully done wrong in my life too so it might have been me if no one else before me. I am not perfect but i have acepted that and asked for the forgiveness that was offered to me so long ago. MY CHOICE. it was not forced on me and i gladly made it with out hesitation because i believed. This is not an issue of god punishing you but you making a choice for yourself. And by the way if im wrong i will be the first to admit it when the time comes but unfortunately that will be kind of too late to take it back if i chose not to beleive. i will have had all my life to make it by gods word and when its over i dont think its unfair that he keeps it.

Yes, it is your choice to be ignorant to what the true definition of morality is. And again, have you ever even read the bible? Apparently not because you still haven't grasped the fact that according to your mythology, your God judges each and every individual, then sends them to their respective place. What don't you understand about this? Your god made the rules, your god decided what was necessary to make it into his "heaven" and YOUR GOD decided to send all those that didn't live up to his expectations to "hell". Read the freaking book!

I have read the book as you say and hen i get home i may decide to prove you wrong withthe verses from it. yes he will judge us but according to our decision. after that we will account for the wrong weve done and go on into heaven. if you accept his offer you WILL go to heaven. if not you WILL go to hell. you are right... it is plain and simple why dont YOU get it or are you the type of person that enjoys trying to make people with good intentions and convictions explain to you what cant be explained cause you dont and wont beleive it no matter what i say? i am not a hipocrite and will be the first to say i am not perfect or even near there. i dont know the bible by heart and cant quote you most of the scripture verbatim, i can tell you the meaning of it and try to give you an honest veiw of what it says to me. I am very interested in carring on a conversation about this is you are not just trying to bust my balls. if you are just trying to make me look bad or cause me to get angry or something then i wont worry about it. i have told you the truth and you may do with it as you please.

i have to go home now but will sign on later to see which is the case. im sorry once agian that the truth of christianity offends you but maybe you should look a little deeper or with i little more of an open mind(not an insult, you have been civil) if you want to understand what i am saying. its all about belevieng and faith. if you dont try to use those things it will most likely not be clear to you. I ts hard(was for me at first) to "get" it and i had a lot of the same veiws but i made the desicion to give it an honest try to understand for myself what it was about. I was shown in many ways throughout my life that this is true to me. We may just have to agree to dissagree on this but i am all for a chance to explain my veiws if thats what your interested in. I cant speak for anyone but myself though so its kind of up to you.

Yes, it is your choice to be ignorant to what the true definition of morality is. And again, have you ever even read the bible? Apparently not because you still haven't grasped the fact that according to your mythology, your God judges each and every individual, then sends them to their respective place. What don't you understand about this? Your god made the rules, your god decided what was necessary to make it into his "heaven" and YOUR GOD decided to send all those that didn't live up to his expectations to "hell". Read the freaking book!


hey ed... open up your bible(if you have one) and if you READ it, read james 3:1.... AGAIN.

are you done? ... good. that right there tells you that you are judged based on what you know. if you know more, God expects more out of you. if you don't know that much, or nothing at all about the word of God, then you will be judged on how you act, and go about your life.

i know a few more, they're highlighted in my bible... would you like me to throw some more at you?

his expectations are not all that hard at all. based on what you know, all you have to do it except the Lord as your savior and live up to his morals.. it's not that hard. but if you don't want to, that's fine.

I tried and tried but just can't make any sense out of this statement... :confused:



This couldn't be further from the truth. The notion that people become atheists because they simply "don't like the idea of some God watching every move" is just nonsense, right up there with the whole "atheists are just mad at God" bit.

The main reason these arguments turn bloody, at least IMO, is because the entire concept behind Christianity is "Believe as I do or you're doomed to suffer an eternity of torture". It's not just a matter of suggesting your beliefs to others, and then letting them live in peace. You guys are convinced that those who do not accept your doctrines, and do not believe in the entities you believe in, are doomed to spend an eternal afterlife suffering horribly in hell. Never ending torture, fire and brimstone, the whole nine yards. And why? Merely for exercising their freedom of conscience! In fact, it's amazing how very many of you get this sick satisfaction believing so! "Oh, he won't believe what I tell him. That's okay because boy will he be sorry one day! *snicker*". What kind of person takes pleasure in believing someone will suffer horribly for eternity merely for not believing what they do? I personally nowadays let it all roll off my shoulders but this attitude alone can probably account for the majority of bloody "debates" that take place with others.

To this effect, the entire concept of Hell is utter nonsense. Think about it, what could one human being possibly do to truly warrant ETERNAL torture and suffering? Not believing in your God? Killing someone? Molesting children? Mass murder? I maintain that NOTHING can warrant suffering of this caliber. I mean really, what's the point? After a few million years for the worst crimes the message might have been made clear, but eternal? Never ending?

This concept alone is why I would never accept the Christian God, or any other god(s) that ruled existance this way, even if they were proven to exist. If God came down to me tonight and said "Hey Ed, here I am. The bible is true and all the non-followers will be going to hell for eternity, wha'chu gonna do about it?" I would look him in the eye, smile, and :moon: his evil ass. Hell is a concept of pure evil, purported by a truly evil being (God), and since I align myself with true goodness and true righteousness I will never accept or worship this being. I would rather suffer eternity in hell in the name of good than kneel and worship this being of pure evil.

That, among many other reasons, is why I am an atheist. It has nothing to do with simply "not liking ideas".


hmm, it seems i made no comment of hell or "where you're going to end up".... but if that's how you feel:bigthumb:

hey ed... open up your bible(if you have one) and if you READ it, read james 3:1.... AGAIN.

are you done? ... good. that right there tells you that you are judged based on what you know. if you know more, God expects more out of you. if you don't know that much, or nothing at all about the word of God, then you will be judged on how you act, and go about your life.

i know a few more, they're highlighted in my bible... would you like me to throw some more at you?

his expectations are not all that hard at all. based on what you know, all you have to do it except the Lord as your savior and live up to his morals.. it's not that hard. but if you don't want to, that's fine.


What does the manner in which he judges you have to do with anything? Burnout is saying that God does not send you anywhere which is blatantly untrue! God judges you (what he judges you on doesn't matter and is irrelevant) and then sends you where HE decides to send you. That is what we are debating and you just proved my point, thanks!

hmm, it seems i made no comment of hell or "where you're going to end up".... but if that's how you feel:bigthumb:

Yeah but that's what you believe isn't it? Hell, fire and brimstone, the whole nine yards?

I thought so. :)

I have read the book as you say and hen i get home i may decide to prove you wrong withthe verses from it. yes he will judge us but according to our decision. after that we will account for the wrong weve done and go on into heaven. if you accept his offer you WILL go to heaven. if not you WILL go to hell. you are right... it is plain and simple why dont YOU get it or are you the type of person that enjoys trying to make people with good intentions and convictions explain to you what cant be explained cause you dont and wont beleive it no matter what i say? i am not a hipocrite and will be the first to say i am not perfect or even near there. i dont know the bible by heart and cant quote you most of the scripture verbatim, i can tell you the meaning of it and try to give you an honest veiw of what it says to me. I am very interested in carring on a conversation about this is you are not just trying to bust my balls. if you are just trying to make me look bad or cause me to get angry or something then i wont worry about it. i have told you the truth and you may do with it as you please.

No, my friend, *I* get it. And that's the basis of my whole arguement -- the childish and nonsensical belief that you go to hell for *anything*, let alone simply for failing to believe in the bible, god, jesus, invisible pink unicorns, and whatever else. That type of belief is just so primitive! It just goes to show how self-centered the majority of people still are, and why there's a very slim chance that humanity will survive in this universe.

Why do you keep implying that I'm offended? I never said that so why are you posting it? Because I'm simply debating your neanderthal belief system you assume I'm offended? Wow.


i have to go home now but will sign on later to see which is the case. im sorry once agian that the truth of christianity offends you but maybe you should look a little deeper or with i little more of an open mind(not an insult, you have been civil) if you want to understand what i am saying. its all about belevieng and faith. if you dont try to use those things it will most likely not be clear to you. I ts hard(was for me at first) to "get" it and i had a lot of the same veiws but i made the desicion to give it an honest try to understand for myself what it was about. I was shown in many ways throughout my life that this is true to me. We may just have to agree to dissagree on this but i am all for a chance to explain my veiws if thats what your interested in. I cant speak for anyone but myself though so its kind of up to you.

Take your own advice, friend. An open mind is something Christians strangely seem to lack, hence your "truth of christianity" statement in one breath and "have an open mind" statement in the next. LOL, a bit hypocritical don't you think?

It doesn't matter. The entire notion that someone should suffer horrible torture for eternity is EVIL and WRONG. Period. Especially for something as petty as not believing a certain way. Anyone who tries to justify eternal torture is also evil, to a degree.

If you worship the Christian god, you worship pure, unfiltered evil.

read my above post... ALSO... the bible says in a few verses of how each person that goes to hell, will suffer eternal punishment. what it ALSO says is that they will eventually be destroyed.

eternal destruction... death is to suffer eternally.

i didnt say/mean to imply that he wont hold up his word. the promise is made that he will "send" you or let you choose hell because he loved you enough to give you the choice. i didnt mean to say that you wont be held accountable for that choice. my point was that it is ultimately up to you where you go. I you want to the solution to your issue is very simple. God does not send or force you to hell.... you make that determination yourself.

read my above post... ALSO... the bible says in a few verses of how each person that goes to hell, will suffer eternal punishment. what it ALSO says is that they will eventually be destroyed.

eternal destruction... death is to suffer eternally.


Sorry, but destroyed = no longer in existance = no longer being punished. If god destroys me, I'm no longer around and cannot suffer any longer. If I am still experiencing suffering, I'm still around.

You can't have it both ways, friend. That is a contradiction in terms. So which is it? Eternal suffering or destruction/nonexistance?

i didnt say/mean to imply that he wont hold up his word. the promise is made that he will "send" you or let you choose hell because he loved you enough to give you the choice. i didnt mean to say that you wont be held accountable for that choice. my point was that it is ultimately up to you where you go. I you want to the solution to your issue is very simple. God does not send or force you to hell.... you make that determination yourself.


The fact remains that if you don't bend to "God's will" and live your life accordingly, you are SENT TO HELL. It's not like you say when you die "okay, I didn't live up to God's will, so I'll just take a walk across the astral plane here and jump into hell myself". According to your belief system, he puts you there.

And ANY being that would place another into a state of eternal suffering, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THAT SUFFERING ACTUALLY IS, is an evil, terrible being and one that I spit in the face of. And everyone who worships such a being and agrees with/believes in this form of reward/punishment is evil and immoral as well.

There is NO god. Period. Realize how youve been brainwashed and realize the TRUTH. damn

That's what Im talking about. Look at every other species on earth. There is no religion. There is no worrying about gods or morals or right and wrong. They live. That is all.

Since you all are quoting what the bible says....

www.holybible.com

C+P the verses to back up what you're saying...and include the context in which it's used...

This should get interesting....

If you look at all the things happening in the world today, it is my belief that they are a direct result of mankind living in the unnatural state of "do unto others". No other species on the planet does this. There is communal living, but when two communities cross paths, they do not mingle to form a larger community. One or the other moves on, usually preceded by some sort of violence. By leaving behind these violent tendencies, and allowing ourselves to overpopulate, we have upset the natural balance of the world.

What does the manner in which he judges you have to do with anything? Burnout is saying that God does not send you anywhere which is blatantly untrue! God judges you (what he judges you on doesn't matter and is irrelevant) and then sends you where HE decides to send you. That is what we are debating and you just proved my point, thanks!

thanks for changing your side of the story. obviously what you said was:


***Your god made the rules, your god decided WHAT WAS NECESSARY to make it into his "heaven" and YOUR GOD decided to send all those that didn't live up to his expectations to "hell". Read the freaking book!***

your above statement and my reply go hand in hand. his expectations vary from person to person. which means GOD IS THE JUDGE. HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT JUDGES. HE JUDGES ON WHAT YOU KNOW. get it? you have no point. you're argument is based on what is written over and over again in the bible.

he gives you a chance. God does not allow evil into his home(heaven). if you do not make it into heaven, you will go to hell. you are either good or evil. thanks for playing!

Yeah but that's what you believe isn't it? Hell, fire and brimstone, the whole nine yards?

I thought so. :)

absolutely:)

Sorry, but destroyed = no longer in existance = no longer being punished. If god destroys me, I'm no longer around and cannot suffer any longer. If I am still experiencing suffering, I'm still around.

You can't have it both ways, friend. That is a contradiction in terms. So which is it? Eternal suffering or destruction/nonexistance?

read:
revelation 14:11

then read:
revelation 21:8

if you're so anxious to find out what really happens after death, why don't you ask God for guidance?;)

The fact remains that if you don't bend to "God's will" and live your life accordingly, you are SENT TO HELL. It's not like you say when you die "okay, I didn't live up to God's will, so I'll just take a walk across the astral plane here and jump into hell myself". According to your belief system, he puts you there.

And ANY being that would place another into a state of eternal suffering, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THAT SUFFERING ACTUALLY IS, is an evil, terrible being and one that I spit in the face of. And everyone who worships such a being and agrees with/believes in this form of reward/punishment is evil and immoral as well.


that's not how it is. he made us, he can destroy us.< THAT'S how it is. don't like it? oh well.

That's what Im talking about. Look at every other species on earth. There is no religion. There is no worrying about gods or morals or right and wrong. They live. That is all.


none of which has the mental capacity, nor the ability to do what we do and to have what we have.

you're right. they live, that's all they do. live and die. God gave us MUCH more. thanks for playing.

thanks for changing your side of the story. obviously what you said was:


***Your god made the rules, your god decided WHAT WAS NECESSARY to make it into his "heaven" and YOUR GOD decided to send all those that didn't live up to his expectations to "hell". Read the freaking book!***

your above statement and my reply go hand in hand. his expectations vary from person to person. which means GOD IS THE JUDGE. HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT JUDGES. HE JUDGES ON WHAT YOU KNOW. get it? you have no point. you're argument is based on what is written over and over again in the bible.


I think you're confusing this entirely. How did I change my story in any way? What you posted above is exactly what I've been saying all along. Quote me where I said any different. :confused:

I was just trying to prove to the boy (burnout) that God makes the final decision where to send you. That was the basis of my entire argument. Do you disagree with this statement?


he gives you a chance. God does not allow evil into his home(heaven). if you do not make it into heaven, you will go to hell. you are either good or evil. thanks for playing!

Again, aside from your "does not let evil in" rhetoric, I have said no differently. This is your belief system in a nutshell. And according to my morality it is a terrible, evil belief system that worships a terrible, evil creature. I guess that would make YOU a terrible, evil person for following it... Thanks for playing!

that's not how it is. he made us, he can destroy us.< THAT'S how it is. don't like it? oh well.


I'm still waiting for your response. Do us hellbound heathens suffer for eternity or are we destroyed? Are ya gonna answer me?

The man with a girl stripping her thong off is preaching...

At least it's a female.

none of which has the mental capacity, nor the ability to do what we do and to have what we have.

you're right. they live, that's all they do. live and die. God gave us MUCH more. thanks for playing.

and where has all this ability gotten us? Supposedly we are killing this world. Is that something for your god to be proud of?

and btw, your god gave me nothing, nor do I want from him. Thanks anyways.

and btw, your god gave me nothing, nor do I want from him. Thanks anyways.


He gave you life......and evolution never happened :rolleyes:

^^^ um...no, my mother and father gave me life.

I'm not even going to argue the evolution comment.

^^^ um...no, my mother and father gave me life.

I'm not even going to argue the evolution comment.

:rolleyes: =rolling eyes sarcasticly.....settle down, chief-I'm agreeing with you :firedevil

Aight guys, it was a fun little debate but I'm leaving work shortly, so I'mma bow out for the weekend.

Oh, don't worry Sir Rupert, you're a cool guy and I don't really think you're terrible and evil. ;) I was just illustrating how all-encompassing a belief system can be, properly or not. :) I'd rather debate with you and your thong-pics than some of the other guys from the RX7club any day of the week.

Have a good weekend all.

:rolleyes: =rolling eyes sarcasticly.....settle down, chief-I'm agreeing with you :firedevil

Sorry. didn't catch the sacrasm. I can't stand ignorance, and when religeous peoples will believe in a deity they conjured of thin air, but are too ignorant to recognize the evidence of evolution, it irks me.

Sorry. didn't catch the sacrasm. I can't stand ignorance, and when religeous peoples will believe in a deity they conjured of thin air, but are too ignorant to recognize the evidence of evolution, it irks me.


Yeah, how can you deny evolution? Living things are evolving constantly. Today, actually, one of my co-workers tryed to "convert" me and "show me the way".....I went through 4 yrs. of catholic hs and that really showed me the way.....the way its all bullshit

I think religion is a way for people to either blame something for their own shortcomings "god hates me" or hope for a deliverance "god help me"...

Either way...why not believe in the power of your own two hands, people?

and where has all this ability gotten us? Supposedly we are killing this world. Is that something for your god to be proud of?

and btw, your god gave me nothing, nor do I want from him. Thanks anyways.


starter, i'm not even going to try with you. until you bring up something new into this thread, i will continue to ignore you.

I think you're confusing this entirely. How did I change my story in any way? What you posted above is exactly what I've been saying all along. Quote me where I said any different. :confused:

I was just trying to prove to the boy (burnout) that God makes the final decision where to send you. That was the basis of my entire argument. Do you disagree with this statement?



i think you, me and burnout were all on different pages here... it was you vs. me and him. too much going on... we all know that(to me and burnout atleast) God decides, and judges, where you and i end up. that's as clear my urine after a hot summer's day..





Again, aside from your "does not let evil in" rhetoric, I have said no differently. This is your belief system in a nutshell. And according to my morality it is a terrible, evil belief system that worships a terrible, evil creature. I guess that would make YOU a terrible, evil person for following it... Thanks for playing!

i am. i am VERY evil. :firedevil

I'm still waiting for your response. Do us hellbound heathens suffer for eternity or are we destroyed? Are ya gonna answer me?


you suffer for a long time, then you are eventually destroyed. it's a little unclear of what happens exactly... but since you choose not to believe in it already, i guess it doesn't mean much.

the bible from my point of view does not say exactly as well as in which process it happens. i think there are only about 15 or so verses in the whole bible about hell.

Aight guys, it was a fun little debate but I'm leaving work shortly, so I'mma bow out for the weekend.

Oh, don't worry Sir Rupert, you're a cool guy and I don't really think you're terrible and evil. ;) I was just illustrating how all-encompassing a belief system can be, properly or not. :) I'd rather debate with you and your thong-pics than some of the other guys from the RX7club any day of the week.

Have a good weekend all.

same here, i'm pretty sure they would have all hounded me at the same time for even saying the word God. as well as claiming that i've been sending threatening pm's to them..;)

I'm still waiting for your response. Do us hellbound heathens suffer for eternity or are we destroyed? Are ya gonna answer me?

It means that suffering for eternity=destruction. Like i said before, these discussions always turn into picking apart little bits and pieces in the bible.

ok so the whole Bible must be a fairytale, becuase "suffer for eternity" is not at all similar to "destruction" :rolleyes:

starter, i'm not even going to try with you. until you bring up something new into this thread, i will continue to ignore you.

LMFAO Ignore me all you want. You seem to want to ignore all scientific fact in favour of a fairy tale anyways.

You want to talk about how "God" judges and decides your eternal fate? How about the science behind matter breaking down?

You live, you die, your body decays to be reintroduced into the cycle. Thats it, and thats all. What about your thoughts and feelings? Electrical impulses in your brain. And yes...there are things about this world we cannot yet explain. That does not mean they are the work of some all-powerful being.

You're no better than Chicken Little getting hit on the head by an acorn and proclaiming the sky is falling because of something he didn't understand.

ok so the whole Bible must be a fairytale, becuase "suffer for eternity" is not at all similar to "destruction" :rolleyes:No, the whole Bible is a fairy tale because you've got...


All of mankind originating from two people, one of whom was created from the rib of the other
People living to 900+ years of age
People rising from the dead
People parting seas
People walking on water
People gathering two of every land animal in the world onto a boat that was left high and dry on top of a mountain... but somehow managing to get all of them back to their present-day locations afterward...

Sounds more like the National Enquirer to me.

Yeah, how can you deny evolution? Living things are evolving constantly. Today, actually, one of my co-workers tryed to "convert" me and "show me the way".....I went through 4 yrs. of catholic hs and that really showed me the way.....the way its all bullshit

i do not deny evolution. in genesis, it says that god creates the earth, sun moon water sky etc. basically he created our day. what was a day to gad before he created the day weve come to know? also the ark is rumored to be in a glacier on top of a mountian in the middle east based on some data from satallites. this im not very sure of and its all speculation at this time. The point is that there are many proven prophecies and event out of the bible to be true. As for the beleifs in the other things we will se in the future who is "right or wrong" and the whole point is faith and acceptance not brainwashing and control.

As for mr north, i was under the impression that you were irate at me because of the remarks to my faith and intellegence as a result of those beliefs. I am not trying to make you see my point of veiw or anything i just wanted to get a chance to say what i feel is missed a lot of times in the public eye due to a few fanatics or bad personal experiences from individuals lives. not all chriastains are like that. this argument is all for nothing because tou have all of the information in front of you but choose to see it as a threatening/ bad thing instead of an honest/ good thing, but thanks for at least hearing me out and not acting extreme like some of the idiots on the other forum.

I have said the meaning of christianity and the way to get to heaven. the rest is up to you. im sorry if youi dont agree but that is also up to you. You seem intelligent and very capable person, if you are really interested in this i suggest talking to a minister about your doupts or even go to the source. give it an honest shot is all i ask before you condemn the whole idea. I must go later people im off to cars and useless photoshoped pics. :banghead: :crazy: :blah:

also the ark is rumored to be in a glacier on top of a mountian in the middle eastThat would be Mt. Ararat in Turkey.

based on some data from satallites.Based on some wishful thinking.

the point is that there are many proven prophecies and event out of the bible to be true.Like what?

the whole point is faith and acceptance not brainwashing and control.Organized religion is brainwashing and control.

Religion is a crutch for the weak, If God truly does exist he abandoned us a LOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Organized religion is brainwashing and control.

Thank you.

Without getting into the troubles the Church has gone through; I don't think there can honestly be any arguement to this.

Religion is a crutch for the weak, If God truly does exist he abandoned us a LOOOOOOOONG time ago.
:werd:

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. If you wont/cant believe there is a God, that is fine with me, good luck with that. We will all know who was right in the end, ill just suggest to look into it carefully before you shrug it off as for just "weak minded" people

Religion is a crutch for the weak.

B.S.

just because you believe in god does not mean god does your laundry, pays your bills, or goes to work for you.

people who believe in god still run through the daily mill just like everyone else.

this is probably the most fallible atheist anti god argument there is - that 'people who believe in god would somehow fall apart if it was revealed that there really is no god.'

B.S.

just because you believe in god does not mean god does your laundry, pays your bills, or goes to work for you.

people who believe in god still run through the daily mill just like everyone else.

this is probably the most fallible atheist anti god argument there is - that 'people who believe in god would somehow fall apart if it was revealed that there really is no god.'

WERD!

just because you believe in god does not mean god does your laundry, pays your bills, or goes to work for you.Not to mention that he won't take a bullet for you either, no matter how strongly you believe in him.

people who believe in god still run through the daily mill just like everyone else.No one said believing in God made you non-functional. Believing in God just means you're gullible.

this is probably the most fallible atheist anti god argument there is - that 'people who believe in god would somehow fall apart if it was revealed that there really is no god.'How did you feel the day you found out Santa Claus wasn't real?

Not to mention that he won't take a bullet for you either, no matter how strongly you believe in him.


no, he wouldn't. i think we all know this.

No one said believing in God made you non-functional. Believing in God just means you're gullible.

"religion is for the weak"

he never said anything about being gullible either.

i think your full of yourself if you don't believe in a 'higher up'. are you full of yourself jim? i don't know... we're just making assumptions.

How did you feel the day you found out Santa Claus wasn't real?

i never thought he was real in the first place. i know it hurt you emotionally when you found out, that's probably why you'll never try to believe in anything else.

So how about my theory that the universe created itself?

Things exsist because, using physics, there CAN NOT be NOTHING.
It denies the exsistance of God, or gods/goddesses, and replaces them with an asentient mass of pure exsistance. In this theory we see that the Big Bang makes sense (hey, even if you're Christian you got to admit that God making things be would make a FUCKLOAD of noise), provides explanation for why the world is a chaotic shithole, and still acknowleges that there HAD (yes HAD) to be a CREATIVE FORCE.

Who would win in a fight: Thor or Mars/Aries?

The bible doesn't rule out a lot of scientific theories... loud, uneducated people interpreting it do...

i know it hurt you emotionally when you found out, that's probably why you'll never try to believe in anything else.Talk about weak... Jesus Fucking Christ. Is that the best you've got?? :D

I ruled out reading this thread. I thought there was noway anything provocative would be in here. again, I was right. But I have learned a new respect for Labreck. Despite his hate of STL and my long time friends.

Despite his hate of STL and my long time friends.I've got nothing against St. Louis, so maybe you should take a good look at the quality of your long-time friends. Now, now, I'm sure they're all really nice in real life. :D

I must admit, Jim is a smart mofo.

STL represent, yo.

And Rupert, I'm hardly full of myself because I don't believe in a higher being. That's a retarded assumption to make :scratch: I would just rather believe in myself to get through the tough times than in some magical being that has never provided proof of its existence, nor its willingness to help people get through life.

Bah, I'm going to bed before I get all pissed off. These debates are pointless anyways.

"cant we all just get along?" :rasta: :firedevil :angel: :bowdown: :afro: :grouphug: :nopity:

I must admit, Jim is a smart mofo.

STL represent, yo.

And Rupert, I'm hardly full of myself because I don't believe in a higher being. That's a retarded assumption to make :scratch: I would just rather believe in myself to get through the tough times than in some magical being that has never provided proof of its existence, nor its willingness to help people get through life.

Bah, I'm going to bed before I get all pissed off. These debates are pointless anyways.

yes, they are pointless. notice i said we're all making assumptions of each other(namecalling)... this whole "weak" arguement is nothing but namecalling. now i call you guys 'full of yourselves' and you get all defensive and hurt.

i rest my case:D

I don't think the reason that people say "religion is a crutch for the weak" actually has much to do with specifically getting through life, rather what they expect at death and how it affects their lives. A couple of reason that I've always thought people said this are:

- Religious people can't possibly fathom the concept of there being nothing waiting for them at death. They are so put out by the thought of dying someday, that if they didn't believe in an afterlife, it would literally tear their world apart.

- Religious people want to feel "special", like their life actually has some meaning to existance and the universe. They are so put out by the thought of their lives being meaningless and insignificant that they cling to these beliefs because they would be a total wreck otherwise.

Now I understand this won't be the case with *all* religious people, but this is what I've come to understand as far as why somebody would use that little *catch-phrase*. It certainly isn't an "anti-god" argument, really just an attempted insult, much like "Atheists have no morals". But there you go.

Not to mention that he won't take a bullet for you either, no matter how strongly you believe in him.

No one said believing in God made you non-functional. Believing in God just means you're gullible.

How did you feel the day you found out Santa Claus wasn't real?


#1 i never stated whether or not i believe in god. so please take that shit somewhere else.

#2 believing in god is no more or no less 'gullible' an idea then not believing in god. we have no proof either way. so both beliefs are based on faith.

#3 i never believed in santa claus

The bible doesn't rule out a lot of scientific theories... loud, uneducated people interpreting it do...

exactly. in fact the bible doesn't rule out anything, considering the fact that its very open to interpretation; some more 'liberal' christians think of the bible as purely allegorical.

Religious people can't possibly fathom the concept of there being nothing waiting for them at death. They are so put out by the thought of dying someday, that if they didn't believe in an afterlife, it would literally tear their world apart.

sure they can. for instance, judaism. throughout its history; even in the very bible itself; judaism is mostly concerned with the *earthly* state of israel. there's not alot of talk of heaven and hell and the end of existence. christianty is the religion thats always concerned with the afterlife.

the reason judasim rejects jesus as the messiah is because in core judaism the messiah is not the one who will save the world and establish the kingdom of god. rather, in the original context of the OT the messiah is the one who will come and reestablish israel as a independent monarchy free of the roman empire. jesus kind of didn't do that, thus he is not the jewish messiah.

see the focus is on the earthly, not the hereafter. its the later christian reinterpretation of OT readings that changed the meaning to some kind of world savior / holy trinity deal.


- Religious people want to feel "special", like their life actually has some meaning to existance and the universe. They are so put out by the thought of their lives being meaningless and insignificant that they cling to these beliefs because they would be a total wreck otherwise.

this is a failing of all people, religious or not. that's why people are so concerend with stupid shit like fashion. its vanity, and its a common human failing.


Now I understand this won't be the case with *all* religious people, but this is what I've come to understand as far as why somebody would use that little *catch-phrase*. It certainly isn't an "anti-god" argument, really just an attempted insult, much like "Atheists have no morals". But there you go.

agreed.

sure they can. for instance, judaism. throughout its history; even in the very bible itself; judaism is mostly concerned with the *earthly* state of israel. there's not alot of talk of heaven and hell and the end of existence. christianty is the religion thats always concerned with the afterlife.

the reason judasim rejects jesus as the messiah is because in core judaism the messiah is not the one who will save the world and establish the kingdom of god. rather, in the original context of the OT the messiah is the one who will come and reestablish israel as a independent monarchy free of the roman empire. jesus kind of didn't do that, thus he is not the jewish messiah.

see the focus is on the earthly, not the hereafter. its the later christian reinterpretation of OT readings that changed the meaning to some kind of world savior / holy trinity deal.


Bleh, scratch what I said. I should have said Christians instead of "Religious People". Buddhism, which I relate to more than anything, in general doesn't harbor beliefs of an afterlife. I should have thought about that more before posting.


this is a failing of all people, religious or not. that's why people are so concerend with stupid shit like fashion. its vanity, and its a common human failing.

Not everyone. When I say "special" I mean in terms of the big picture i.e. the universe/existance. Most religious people, and some non-religious, think they are part of something big and actually matter to the universe. Vanity is something different entirely, more of an "I'm better than you" mentality, or a preoccupation with material posessions.

My personal belief is that we are what we make ourselves. Being "special" is something we can be, but only relative to our friends, family, and community, because that is who/what we impact with our everyday lives. It's defined by our actions and not simply by existing in this human state.

I must be the exception then as well as most other christians at my church and that i know cause a lot of the people here beleive very much that god is real and that jesus, the son from the virgin mary, came and died for our sins so that we may have the choice of our own salvation.

I also beleive however that in this world and universe that i matter as much as when i stick my wet finger in the bath tub and pull it out. Thats the concept that i dont think you get. the difference is not that we think were special here, on this earth, but when we pass on it will be to something better. is it that bad to hope for something better than this earth? i hope not cause that seems like a pretty good maliase youve got going on if this is good enough for you. I dont see how you and others can say that is uneducated or shallow thinking because there is a great deal of theory and beleif involved for the people who dont just blindly beleive anything! dont lump all christians together because were not all the same! I t even says in the bible that not all who call upon him at the end and say " lord lord" are going into heaven. you have to beleive in it and accept the fact that he was real and sent him out of love to save his creation from the other choice(hell).

bazow blam i <3 religious debates!!!1one wewt.

Bleh, scratch what I said. I should have said Christians instead of "Religious People". Buddhism, which I relate to more than anything, in general doesn't harbor beliefs of an afterlife. I should have thought about that more before posting.

heh. the deal with buddhism is that the afterlife is the current life; if you want to get sketchy about it. or there is reincarnation through the myriad worlds or planes of existence, depending on which buddhist sect you belong to.

Not everyone. When I say "special" I mean in terms of the big picture i.e. the universe/existance. Most religious people, and some non-religious, think they are part of something big and actually matter to the universe. Vanity is something different entirely, more of an "I'm better than you" mentality, or a preoccupation with material posessions.

My personal belief is that we are what we make ourselves. Being "special" is something we can be, but only relative to our friends, family, and community, because that is who/what we impact with our everyday lives. It's defined by our actions and not simply by existing in this human state.

personally i think this is the same vanity, either way; expressed through different facets of a person's life. but i can agree to disagree. :P

I must be the exception then as well as most other christians at my church and that i know cause a lot of the people here beleive very much that god is real and that jesus, the son from the virgin mary, came and died for our sins so that we may have the choice of our own salvation.

if you were replying to me, my judasim comments and my christian allegory comments were not related. i was referring more to christians non literal interpreatation of genesis, and some of the early OT stories.


I also beleive however that in this world and universe that i matter as much as when i stick my wet finger in the bath tub and pull it out. Thats the concept that i dont think you get. the difference is not that we think were special here, on this earth, but when we pass on it will be to something better. is it that bad to hope for something better than this earth? i hope not cause that seems like a pretty good maliase youve got going on if this is good enough for you.

that is a different argument altogether. the idea of 'passing something better on' is not a very christian argument however. the christian bible clearly implies that the world will be a continual state of decline, regardless of the deeds of imperfect men, and will continue that way until the day of judgment.

if people by their own will and faith could make the world a better place over time, there wouldn't be a need for a savior.

I dont see how you and others can say that is uneducated or shallow thinking because there is a great deal of theory and beleif involved for the people who dont just blindly beleive anything! dont lump all christians together because were not all the same!

i agree, i hate it when atheist bandwagoners say religious people are shallow or nonthinkers.

#1 i never stated whether or not i believe in god. so please take that shit somewhere else.Go tell someone who cares. :rolleyes:

#2 believing in god is no more or no less 'gullible' an idea then not believing in god. we have no proof either way. so both beliefs are based on faith.No, some people just don't give a shit either way.

#3 i never believed in santa clausThat's because your double-wide didn't have a chimney and mommy was on the welfare...

if people by their own will and faith could make the world a better place over time, there wouldn't be a need for a savior.Well what the hell is keeping him? Did he miss his bus?

More people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause. Ever. Makes you proud, doesn't it?

I feel like I've heard these arguments before...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Sup1661/5fe6cffa.jpg

Quit posting pictures you coward! :D

Quit posting pictures you coward! :D
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Sup1661/ddfcbe3e.jpg

i don't think I heard you?

:wiggle: