As a Roman Catholic, I recieved my Confirmation at the age of 17. A Confirmation is a sacrament in which the Holy Ghost is given to those already baptized in order to make them strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.
I'm thinking of returning to church.
Discuss.

I was confirmed when I was like 10 months old.

oh. I had to go to school for that. I wouldnt be surprise that you argued with the doctor at birth, but at 10 months old, how were you able to voice the new name you gave to yourself? Just curious.

Ukrainian Catholic Church performs the sacrament of confirmation a few months after bapitism. Don't know why, that's just the way that they do it.

Ah, thats cool.
My dad called me today and we talked about going back to church. He goes 4 times a week and told me to not bother myself to their services but just go over for a few minutes at a time and leave. I'll probably do it just to say Hi to my mom.

I'm thinking of returning to church.
Discuss.

I think you are lying. What is there for you?

I dont blame you for thinking I am lying. And perhaps Ill find nothing there. But after talking to my father, I find going back sort of...adventurous. Who knows what will happen.

I dont blame you for thinking I am lying. And perhaps Ill find nothing there. But after talking to my father, I find going back sort of...adventurous. Who knows what will happen.

If you are not looking for God, it will be a waste of your time.

If you are not looking for God, it will be a waste of your time.

The act of looking can be just as important. And no time is ever wasted if its worth your while.

The act of looking can be just as important. And no time is ever wasted if its worth your while.

If you are serious, you will be humble enough to ask God for help to point you to the truth and to give you faith. There is enough evidence.

My confirmation name is Elisabeth, i think its cool that you want to go to church.

I think that's a bit harsh, bx

but the concern I have with mr. cz is he claims to have once been in the faith (not sure if the "conversion" was genuine and sincere), and subsequently rejected it...as you know, there is no hope for apostates who once embraced the Truth and then turned their back on it and openly mock it, which he has done

Hebrews 6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Thats a harsh stance, and not at all of what the bible teaches in Hebrews 6. I had heard it before, and there are a lot of examples of why your Calvinistic viewpoint does not even hold water...

YZF, ever heard of the prodigal son?


A quick google will put out YZFs attack on you (reported).

http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con060.asp

I did!

What makes you think Czar tasted?

well, he told me he used to be a Christian and subsequently left the faith, I'm just taking him at his word

Leaving the faith and loosing faith are two different things.

But again, I point out, you have it all wrong there YZF, don't make me google blast you with tons of examples on why your stance incorrect.

10 Even so, I say to you, There is joy among the angels of God, when one sinner is turned away from his wrongdoing.


11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: Czar and YZF

12 And Czar said to his father, Father, your ways suck. Give me that part of your property which will be mine. And he made division of his goods between them.


13 And not long after, the younger son got together everything which was his and took a journey into a far-away country, and there all his money went in foolish living.


14 And when everything was gone, there was no food to be had in that country, and he was in need.


15 And he went and put himself into the hands of one of the people of that country, and he sent him into his fields to give the pigs their food.


16 And so great was his need that he would have been glad to take the pigs' food, and no one gave him anything.


17 But when he came to his senses, he said, What numbers of my father's servants have bread enough, and more, while I am near to death here through need of food!


18 I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, Father, I have done wrong, against heaven and in your eyes:


19 I am no longer good enough to be named your son: make me like one of your servants.


20 And he got up and went to his father. But while he was still far away, his father saw him and was moved with pity for him and went quickly and took him in his arms and gave him a kiss.


21 And Czar said to him, Father, I have done wrong, against heaven and in your eyes: I am no longer good enough to be named your son.


22 But the father said to his servants, Get out the first robe quickly, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet:


23 And get the fat young ox and put it to death, and let us have a feast, and be glad.


24 For this, my son, who was dead, is living again; he had gone away from me, and has come back. And they were full of joy.


25 Now YZF was in the field: and when he came near the house, the sounds of music and dancing came to his ears.


26 And he sent for one of the servants, questioning him about what it might be.


27 And he said to him, Your brother has come; and your father has had the young ox put to death because he has come back safely.


28 But YZF was angry and would not go in; and his father came out and made a request to him to come in.


29 But YZF made answer and said to his father, See, all these years I have been your servant, doing your orders in everything: and you never gave me even a young goat so that I might have a feast with my friends: Did ytou read the Hebrew, Father?


30 But when this your son came, who has been wasting your property with bad women, you put to death the fat young ox for him.


31 And he said to YZF, Son, you are with me at all times, and all I have is yours.


32 But it was right to be glad and to have a feast; for Czar is your brother, who was dead, is living again; he had gone away and has come back.

Czar, I encourage you to seek the Lord once again. Find yourself a decent gathering of believers and study all you can about the Bible. Learn from it, and about it. Re-awaken what was once within you and don't let anyone tell you that God will not forgive you. If your heart is in place, there is nothing that can take you from the hand of Jesus.

Remember, when it seems like God is failing you, it is simply His followers that are messing it up. That's what we see when it seems like something is out of place. Our hearts can distort what God intends for us, but the message is clear: He loves you, and wants you back.

agree


Reported.

Now I cannot comment on his actions, or what he has done, but its a step, which tells me he isn't dead in the Spirit.

I cannot believe that you would tell someone not to seek the Lord, for what ever reason. Is that His work?

I've questioned it before and I will again, but your motives and actions are quite alarming.

I think that's a bit harsh, bx

but the concern I have with mr. cz is he claims to have once been in the faith (not sure if the "conversion" was genuine and sincere), and subsequently rejected it...as you know, there is no hope for apostates who once embraced the Truth and then turned their back on it and openly mock it, which he has done

Hebrews 6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Harsh? From you? LOL.

WOW! I failed to see this post. I believe you are making an error here in your interpretation based on context. What you are suggesting is that man has control over his salvation. This cannot be true.

Thats a harsh stance, and not at all of what the bible teaches in Hebrews 6. I had heard it before, and there are a lot of examples of why your Calvinistic viewpoint does not even hold water...

YZF, ever heard of the prodigal son?


A quick google will put out YZFs attack on you (reported).

http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con060.asp

WRONG!! This isn't a Calvinistic POV. YZF's POV is Arminian, which is a shock to me.

I think you guys are getting confused....I make a clear distinction between God's Elect and those who are temporarily in the faith, but walk away

God never lets go of the Elect, and they cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit


I heard a good explanation on this difficult passage. I'll see if I can find it. How can one be temporarily in the faith? Do you agree with this process:

Step 1. God's election plan before time began
Step 2. Man is born in sin, which equates to being spiritually dead.
Step 3. Man is presented with the Gospel message.
Step 4. HS regenerates the spiritually dead man. Man gets born again.
Step 5. Man repents and believes.

I don't see any temporary position of "in the faith", except between 3 and 4 where it may take a lifetime to make the connection in the man's mind that he needs to be forgiven. If he never makes the step from 3 to 4 then he was never saved and therefore not of the elect.

I firmly believe there is such a thing as "speculative faith", I've seen plenty of examples: people who were in the faith, even for years, then walked away...consider the parable of the soils...the seed takes root and starts to grow, but is choked out by the cares of the world

actually I think there are many, many people like this in the U.S.

the true mark of the Elect is endurance, not a flash-in-the-pan emotional moment (or even a year or two)

What does "in the faith "look like? No person making a sincere plea for salvation can be unsaved. This still looks like arminianism to me.

again, it's a question of endurance...present tense: believe and keep on believing...not only that, but keep on confessing sin and maintaining the realtionship, this isn't a magic pill you swallow and you're done

Romans 14

To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

and again Hebrews 5

....but imitators of them who through faith and endurance inherit the promises.

I brought this up with my pastor last night. He said Heb 6 is one of the most difficult passages to interpret. I know he has notes on this and I'll try to get them but here's a little something to get the brain flowing. There are 3 possiblitities to discuss.

Let's say it's an apostate, an unsaved person who has been close to getting save but hasn't crossed the threshold. The problem for the calvinist here is that you are saying that there is a place where a person by there actions cannot be saved. This goes against the sovereignty of God and does not work.

Let's say it a carnal, backslidden chritian who has lost their salvation. This is the arminian POV. The problem here is that no one from the arminian camp would suggest that God ever makes it impossible for a person to become saved again.

So maybe it's neither an unsaved person or a carnal christian. I haven't had time to do all the homework yet but my pastor has mentioned that preceeding this part there are 4 other warning passages before it. There's also a direction change in these passages distinguishing between "you and they". It may not be worded exactly as this in each. But if the elements are there then this also is like a "you and they". Then in this case it is a comparison to the israelites in the wilderness to christians who do not enter into God's rest. They're saved but their failure to obey God leaves them in the "wilderness". It is a sanctification issue. I think my pastor mentioned that Charles Swindoll supports this view.

read over the notes on Hebrews that I quoted above, it's clear the context is "brethern", those in the faith....but not all endure to the end, only God knows who those are

for many are called, but few are chosen

can we drop the Calvin/Arminian labels? you're far too preoccupied with categories, who really cares about that, stick to the scripture, we're as smart as those dead guys


Sure lets stick to scripture, and lets point out where you have the Wedding parable wrong. You keep on quoting this 'many are called, few are chosen'....but you have taken this entirely out of context. Better yet, how about looking up Jewish wedding customs so that you understand what the parable means so that you quit getting this passage wrong.

It gets tiring to see you rant that there are a 'few chosen' among Christians, as if there is some chose elite among them. You know as well as I do that we are all sinners and all fall short, so why do you persist in this 'chosen elect'?

Take a look at 2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Through Him our sins are forgiven, that all of us are on a level playing field, no one is better than the other because of Him.

Quit with this 'chosen elect', because no matter how much you try there YZF, Mr. Defender of truth I know the bible more than you (salvation by works?), you are no better a Christian than any one of us.

well then it must be tiring for you to hear the scripture (and we've already proven that), because you willfully reject whatever doesn't fit your pre-conceived ideas/philosophy

Against the contrary, its tiring to continually hear your (continually proven) misinterpreted understanding. I don't object, I listen, discern, and expand. You should try it.

When you look thru your glasses, you only see what you want to. I've continually pointed out that you always put God and scripture in a box, and its more dynamic than that. Break out of others pre-conceived conclusions and listen to what He is telling you.

Obviously He's telling CZ to get back into the Spirit, yet you want to discourage it....Who's work are you doing now?

well then it must be tiring for you to hear the scripture (and we've already proven that), because you willfully reject whatever doesn't fit your pre-conceived ideas/philosophy

I hope you don't actually believe your own BS. You have proven nothing, show an example of it, and I could probably make the same case for your 'rejections'.

And I never grow tired of hearing scripture, I get tired of hearing your constantly wrong interpretation of it.

it's been a continual source of conflict

What 'liberal' hack sites are you referring to? LOL, the only liberal hack site I have seen is AIG.

Conflict to you because of what?....Your inability to understand that not everyone shares the same point of view scripturally as you do? Thats always going to happen.....Seems to me that YOU are your own problem here.

Quit pointing fingers and answer some of the questions at hand.
Why do you feel that CZ cannot return to the fold? I believe that he can, that God is forgiving, and welcomes him as he squandered some of his blessings....just like the prodigal son.

Why do you continually believe that he is lost, a weed?

only God knows his condition, I'm just going by what he has posted about his past and his current state of mind


So does that give you the right then to post scripturally that he is lost? That he has fallen and can never get right with God?

Fact is no on on this earth can say so, making judgments as you are doing makes you look like you have the right to do so....and using terms like 'the Elect' and such only makes you look like a jerk, and that your intentions are snobbish and self serving.

Don't point at those who have fallen, help them up.

Regarding post 12, YZF is correct.

The Luke passage I added in this thread relates to YZF and I. My brother may dis-own me with merit, but what really matters is what our Father will say. And the passage shows a Father who is very wise. Not the brother.

I never "disowned" you czar, but you have to admit some of these things you have said about God on this forum are cause for serious concern...am I wrong in thinking that?

indeed the Father is all-wise

No. You are not wrong thinking that.

No. You are not wrong thinking that.

Hold it, hold it, hold it. I'll be the arbiter of truth around here. You guys have the following problems:

YZF fails to acknowledge my weakly supported hermenuetic on Heb 6. This doesn't matter yet, because, either you're saved or not. And since we both agree that no saved person can get unsaved AND no "yet unsaved" elect person will not get saved, this verse does not apply to either of the assumptions. "In the faith" is the same as unsaved. Yet no man controls his salvation. It is by "the will of GOD", which no man can overturn. Get it?

95WhitePep -- do you claim to be a christian??? You seemed confused on election, -- maybe it's just me though, we'll have to discuss

CZ -- Growing up catholic, or baptist for that matter does not make a person a Christian. Going to church aint gonna get you squared away with God. Here's the deal, nothing matters until you understand that God will hold you accountable for your sins. Now, I don't know where you are spiritually, if you are beyond my last statement or not. If you agree with God that you are guilty, you've got a repentent heart. God offers you salvation from his judgement through Christ. Think of it as a trial. God's the judge, he declares you guilty. Your penalty is death and an eternity in hell. You can't pay the fine. Christ steps in an says "I'll pay the fine". You agree with God that you're guilty and need forgiveness, you tell Christ you want to take his offer of forgiveness. If you're sincere, Boom, your saved (actually it was already planned). Now pray and read your bible and obey it. Find a church that teaches from the Bible, keep praying and reading. There's a lot of BAD churches out there. Simple.

Now you all can congratulate me on the clearness of my interpration and judgement of the matter at hand. Pffft!!!

Take a look at 2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Through Him our sins are forgiven, that all of us are on a level playing field, no one is better than the other because of Him.

Quit with this 'chosen elect', because no matter how much you try there YZF, Mr. Defender of truth I know the bible more than you (salvation by works?), you are no better a Christian than any one of us.

95Whitepep...For the sake of all humanity shorten your moniker, I refuse to type out 95whitepe....too long. When you make a statement like "I know the bible more than you" you are setting yourself up for a fall. Because 2 Peter 3:9 is all about ELECTION.

Point 1. Realize Peter is addressing "You" when he says that God is not willing that anyone should perish.

Point 2. Who is the "You"? Go back to verse 1 in the same chapter:

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.

See "this is now my second letter to you.". There must be a first letter. Which is 1 Peter. The question now is who is Peter writing to in the first letter?

Point 3. Check 1 Peter:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, strangers in the world...

Peter is writing to the elect. Peter says that God is unwilling that any of his elect should perish.

God is unwilling that any of his elect should perish.

God is not pleased by the death of _anyone_, even the wicked (Ez 18:20+) :D

again, why the labels? why the "assumptions"?

"in the faith" is certainly not the same as unsaved...some endure to the end, some do not, only God knows, and yes it is by the will of God

"In the faith" was your label. In the faith must either mean saved or unsaved. There's no other place. If there are other positions then you open the door to catholics on purgatory, jw's on the 144k, and all other nonsense.

Do we agree on these points:

A. Once saved, always saved.

B. A person is either saved or not saved.

c. All elect eventually get saved.

I prefer "chosen" or "elect" to "saved" (an overused and trite phrase in many circles), but item c. should the Elect are saved from the wrath of God in the foreknowledge of God, whether we who are alive know who they are or not...that's why endless discussions about this topic are really not helpful

I don't understand what you are saying. I'll rephrase point C.

"All chosen people eventually repent and believe."

Do you agree now?

"in the faith" is certainly not the same as unsaved...some endure to the end, some do not, only God knows, and yes it is by the will of God

So "in the faith" people are saved people. And if they continue in carnality, they don't get to something they should have, ultimately God prevents them. This fits perfectly into my sanctification position for Heb 6.


Are we together yet?

A true "Christain" can do that, but they will be miserable

Fixed

Don't have a point, just kinda used to it from my other intended audiences :P

Now the rephrasing had a point though!

this is a serious question, and the answer is of great relevance.

If youre saying that these "labels" are pointless, and "no one knows the spiritual fate of others", then why do you spend so much time telling others that they are weeds, destined for hell, God hates them, etc etc?

Isnt that the opposite of what youre saying here? What message does it send when someone says such things all the time?

Let's say that youre correct--that no one knows the future of anyone else. Why then would a "true christian" spend all kinds of time trying to tell others their worth? And before you start jumping up and down, this is not an insult, it is a genuine question with genuine interest in your thoughts. I have genuine interest because I have seen others also telling other people that they were destined to burn, and no matter where I look in the Bible I dont see any such command to go out and pass such judgment upon others. I can agree with telling someone that they are in sin, and continuing in sin will lead to death, but I cannot agree with telling ANYONE for any reason that God hates them, etc etc.

not sure what your point is with the quotes

tofu makes a good point here, because becoming a Christian does not all of a sudden mean you dont ever sin again. You WILL be in sin again in this life, am I right? Being chosen or of the elect doesnt mean you dont sin, it means you were chosen by God's grace.

my interpretation was that he was saying that a christian will still be in sin--because no one is without sin--and while they are sinning they will be miserable.

Sky hit the nail on the head.

I dont have to say where I was today, but the Soldier of Christ was on his knees and heard these words:

"To believe is a beautiful act".

you were at the neverland ranch??

I dont have to say where I was today, but the Soldier of Christ was on his knees and heard these words:

"To believe is a beautiful act".

Good job. I hope this becomes a new base for you to stand on.

I don't know, I thought we were done...I don't really enjoy this discussion because you're looking for nice, neat "check the box" answers to extremely complex issues and it doesn't work

We won't be done until you are sure I'm correct that the "those" in verse 4 are in fact saved people.

v. 4 of Hebrews 6?

Yes. I think when I get my notes together, I will be able to prove to you that the "those" refers to saved people who miss out on opportunities.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

this couldn't be any more clear...these are not the Elect, but they were in the faith, they did receive the Spirit, and fell away...think this can't happen? I've seen it happen first hand

Sure it could be more clear!

It's vauge who those who "tasted" refers to

It's vauge what "Fall away" means.

I hate that verse!

Yeah, but they're talkin about "things that accompany salvation"

Not loosing salvation.

if it wasn't possible to fall away, there would be no warning about "losing the things you have worked for", because elsewhere Jesus says anyone who so much as gives a cup of water to someone in need, and endures to the end, "will be no means lose his reward"

endurance IS the word! and this subject is RARELY taught in today's 'seeker sensitive', numbers based, ear-tickling messages, which promise massive crowds "just accept Jesus and everything is wonderful"

that's a lie, and an affront to the true Gospel

God knew about Hebrews. But now in the New Testament, Luke tells us of a new plan, stated from god Himself. Where the Father's son tasted the fruit of His blessings, went away and then returned.

It is possible to fall away, and by Jesus' grace, He removed the warning about "losing the things you have worked for" and welcomed me home.

you were at the neverland ranch??

youre smarter than that.

oh thats embarrassing. What a hell of an argument, no?

if it wasn't possible to fall away, there would be no warning about "losing the things you have worked for", because elsewhere Jesus says anyone who so much as gives a cup of water to someone in need, and endures to the end, "will be no means lose his reward"

Arent the rewards like the things listed in Revelations? Perhaps we will loose the rewards for good works, but not our salvation, as one passing through a fire who has lost everything but themselves.

Christ will clean my temple, sir.

Trolling am I?