I think this is an interesting topic on self defeating myself. No atheist I know ever made something like this. Maybe there is a reason atheist dont? Like atheist are wrong and hiding something? And why not have steps to get to heaven? Isnt this information going to benefit all mankind? Lets stop clamering over each other and share whatever information you have to find that way in an organize fashion.

Note to Mod: If ok....I'll be cutting and pasting quotes from other threads and here, and aligning them as in steps, in some of my replys. It could get bulky. I dont know right now.

STEP (1)repent...and believe Christ died for you, that His sacrifice alone paid the penalty for your sin

STEP (2)then keep on believing

STEP (3)don't be a "weed"

This is all I have for the first three steps. Is it complete? YZF will have to come in here and clarify the 'weed'. I think he means stay focus. We will see later.
Remember guys. The more we are serious in this, the better the info will come out. Please be respectful to other people ideas.

In the bible, read Acts 2:38-47....it is what Peter told the masses when they realized that they had just killed the son of God. Peter tells us there how to reach God--

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers
42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

That is the first step--to repent of your sins and commit your heart to Christ. Now, repenting is not simply saying "sorry"....this is where many churches get it wrong. To repent is to turn away from the old behavior. This means that in order to truly be saved, one must commit with their heart to make that continuing effort to turn away from their sin. Without that in your heart, the rest is useless.

Step 2--continue to believe--this means that you cannot just go through the motions of repenting and then stop. You must then live out that committment you made with your heart, working to avoid sin and following the commands God gave. One of the other more common things that many denominations have forgotten about or ignored is called the great commission--

Matthew 28:16-20

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Step three that you mentioned, the weed, is actually pretty simple. Think about a weed--when you have weeds in your garden what do you do with them? you pull them and throw them away, right? When he said dont be a weed, he meant dont be useless to God. A weed is useless--in fact it is worse than that, because it grows where healthy grass should grow. it takes resources and space meant for a healthy productive plant. If you are a weed in your faith, you are useless to God, and He will pull you from among the good garden and discard you. Another version of this same sentiment can be found in the Bible, in John 15:1-8....

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


A weed in this context is the same as a branch that bears no fruit--it is useless, and as such it is thrown away. Hope that makes sense.

EDIT--the way to be fruitful to God is to bear His good news as a messenger. The mission of the saved is to seek out and then save those who are lost to God. Someone who is saved, that then makes no effort to accomplish that task, is fruitless to God.

Gosh. OK. that is a lot of information to shift through. And with YZF backing ya up, this should go smoothly.

good post by jon there

gee, thats funny...just a minute ago, you claimed that I knew NOTHING about the Bible....hmmmm.....:bigthumb:

STEP (1)
repent...and believe Christ died for you, that His sacrifice alone paid the penalty for your sin
to repent of your sins and commit your heart to Christ. To repent is to turn away from the old behavior. This means that in order to truly be saved, one must commit with their heart to make that continuing effort to turn away from their sin. Without that in your heart, the rest is useless.

Bible Quote: Read Acts 2:38-47...38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

STEP (2)
then keep on believing....
continue to believe--this means that you cannot just go through the motions of repenting and then stop. You must then live out that committment you made with your heart, working to avoid sin and following the commands God gave. One of the other more common things that many denominations have forgotten about or ignored is called the great commission--

STEP (3)
don't be a "weed"
A weed in this context is the same as a branch that bears no fruit--it is useless, and as such it is thrown away.

Bible Quote: John 15:1-8...1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

That it? Are the steps complete?

I could use another bible quote for step 2.

for step 2, you can always rely on the quote listed for step 3. If you truly believe with your heart, then you will continue to follow, and you will continue to be fruitful. The key here is that you cannot simplify this--it is a lifelong committment we are talking about. Be careful not to look at this like it is just three steps. You are talking about changing your entire life. Now, this is nto meant to scare people off, but it is important that you know what is involved. This is not something that one can easily do. For the rest of your life, you will be required to make choices that are hard, and in so many cases, you will need to make the choice that denies yourself. That is very important. Being saved is not something you can get like youre getting a gallon of milk at the store. This is a change that needs to last as long as you live.

If you are unsure about whether or not you can handle this, it's ok. It is a big step and should not be taken lightly. If that is the case, the scripture is a good source of encouragement. If you want scriptures on specific topics, feel free to PM me, and I will offer whatever help I can to point you in that direction.

I don’t understand the way you started....

I think this is an interesting topic on self defeating myself. No atheist I know ever made something like this. Maybe there is a reason atheist don’t? Like atheist are wrong and hiding something?

An atheist doesn't believe in a God, so that’s why they don’t create steps to get to heaven. To them there is no heaven and therefore it'd be a waste of time. How could this mean they are hiding something?

y'all left out step 0 - god deciding to offer you salvation.


Acts 2:39
for all whom the Lord our God will call

without step 0 none of the rest can possibly work because you are born a weed, destined for the fyre.

I don’t understand the way you started....

An atheist doesn't believe in a God, so that’s why they don’t create steps to get to heaven. To them there is no heaven and therefore it'd be a waste of time. How could this mean they are hiding something?

I believe we are born atheist. It is by intervention we are subject to believing in God. Or, believe these are our parents who took care of you. (This isnt me. My dad gave me nose hairs. I hate that. Thus, I grew up with my real parents.)

I dont believe there is a god. Yet the person jesus I do believe. I can learn from him since he is real.

The information is out there of the posibility of something to do after the 'end game'. Now if I can go beyond the taboo and........

y'all left out step 0 - god deciding to offer you salvation.
Acts 2:39
for all whom the Lord our God will call

without step 0 none of the rest can possibly work because you are born a weed, destined for the fyre.

yes sir. but we all know that. right? Isnt it a given? The confusion starts at 'how'. Which is the intent here to clarify. care to help out?

a true "born again", Spirit motivated, experience

Oh Mr Yzf. please describe a true "born again", Spirit motivated, experience. This is important.

psssst: he's playing games jon, he's not serious about anything he says

psssst: I dont care. The mission given to those who are saved is NOT to judge others in this issue. It is to seek out the lost, NO MATTER IF THEY ARE JOKING OR NOT, and make the effort. Again, you fail at your own game. I screw up a ton in my life, but at least I dont go around like the Pharisee.....you try to put on a good show, but when it is time to really reach out to the lost, you would much rather mock, judge, and insult them. Show us where God commanded you or anyone else to judge others.

Besides, I dont suppose anyone ever told you about planting a seed, did they??? For someone who is self-proclaimed as being so far above the rest of us, you sure do fall so far short of the mark sometimes....judge not, lest you be yourself judged, Marky....:bigthumb:

jon's approach focuses on human effort, which is why I severely doubt he ever had a true "born again", Spirit motivated, experience...

I focus on human effort because that is all a human can focus on!! SERIOUSLY--if God chose one and not another, what can that second person do about it?? NOT A DAMN THING, thats what. I focused on human effort because the question was specifically "What can I DO..." and not "What can God do..."

See the difference??? I approached the question based on two things--the actual question asked and the actual answer to it. YOU think that is a reason to insult and judge! You fail, Mark....in so many ways....

Also, DO TELL--show me even just one case of a person who followed God with a true heart and true intentions that God turned away! SHOW US JUST ONE....until you can, give it a rest with your BS judging of others....that is not your job to do. The fact is YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHO GOD CHOSE, and NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE. At that point, the only option you have, if it is in your heart, is to go for it!

otherwise he wouldn't seek to attack me at every turn for all these years

Lest you forget--apparently you already have, there was one big thread in the old days of the 7 club that caused you all this grief. It was because YOU took it upon yourself to enter a thread where you were not involved and ATTACK SOMEONE. And you have a long and distinguished history of doing so ever since. Yes, I attack you...youre right. And that is my error. But dont think for even a second that you can sit there and come off so self-righteous. You have done far worse than anyone else in the history of both these forums, so give it a rest.

And dont even think about mentioning anyone else attacking you, what with all your threats of death, blood, bashing, shotguns to the face, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.....Then there is the fact that you also make a habit of bragging and boasting at someone else's loss or grief.....going as far as wishign more upon them. And, to top it all off, you pray to your God to kill people just for you....how friggin arrogant can one person be???

even going so far as contacting people outside this forum...

Yes, I did. You betcha. ANd you know what?? It needed to be done. You have no business trying to fool those people--they trust you in good faith that you are genuine about your spiritual endeavors....all the while you hide yourself from them....and when it finally comes to light the kind of person they have trusted all this time, the longer your false charade goes on the more damage it can do to them.

Besides, I see that you conveniently left out your own attempts at me....like trying to locate where I live, or claiming to know all kinds of things about me that you slandered all over the forum, when you dont even know my actual name! At least, when I emailed that guy about you, I TOLD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS. They saw it the same way when they invited you to leave the prayer group.

Let's also mention that your own family CONTACTED ME UNSOLICITED in an attempt to do something before you really hurt someone. I have proof of this, and have even showed it to someone in your little internet christian circle....he agreed that I told the truth. Funny how you leave all that out when trying to judge ME.....funny indeed....

he is motivated by his own pride, he thinks he knows everything

Why is it that you say this now, when you are the one who thinks you have the business and the authority to determine others are ignorant and worthless all day long? You use those two words more than anyone else on this forum, and when you use them it is to describe others. No one believes you when you lie like this, champ.....when are you going to learn this??

I consider him a "speculative faith" person...he likes the idea of Christianity, and that's about as far as it goes

the people that are genuinely converted feel the burden, the weight, of sin...and that is nothing self generated, it's God pulling on their heart

Now I KNOW you are a fraud.

The weight of their sin?? Is that what you felt on the other forum last year?? When I brought your unbelievably ridiculous behavior to the attention of your prayer group, and they visited the forum, YOU LIED ABOUT IT. YOU TRIED TO SAY THAT I MADE UP THOSE THINGS.....but they caught you, didnt they??? You LIED TO THEIR FACES, Mark.....this is a prayer group, they confronted you with your sin and you looked them in the eye and LIED TO THEM. That is NOT the action of someone who feels this burden in their heart that you speak of. Such a group is a place where one could look for help with their sin....you chose to play a game with it instead. You lost that game, as I recall....

Then, you are fake to your own church. you dont let them see this side of you at all....the one place on earth where you can get the most help with your sin and you LIE TO THEM TOO....why not, Mark? Why is it that the people in the best position to help you overcome sin are the ones who dont know anything about the real you? That's one really heartfelt burden, I see....in fact, it tugs at your heart so much even now, after your one-week ban, that ever since you came back you have done the exact same thing you did before--you insult and disrespect others all the time! You judge others about their heart, which you are not in a position to do. But it tugs at your heart, I see....:bigthumb:

show me even just one case of a person who followed God with a true heart and true intentions that God turned away! SHOW US JUST ONE....

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=13&version=9&context=chapter

1 Kings 13
1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.


7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.


15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.


23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=13&version=9&context=chapter

1 Kings 13
1 And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.


7 And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

11 Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.


15 Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

16 And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

17 For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.


23 And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

honegod, you fail too....that is not even close. Let's break this one down to simpler terms....

1--the guy was told by God NOT to eat or drink anything.

2--the guy was offered bread.

3--he refused it, because the Lord told him not to eat.

4--but the host said "I am also a prophet, and the angel told me it is ok for you to eat....

5--so the guy ignored what God had told him in favor of the words of another man.

THAT is why he perished--because God told him not to eat, and he ignored God. This is an example of how easily the first man's faith was shaken by the word of another man. This is not an example of what I asked for by any stretch. Had the man in question here had true intentions and a true heart, he would not have ignored God's instruction just because some guy told him it was ok to do so.

that makes total sense, except that the other guy was a prophet who also spoke with the LORD.

so our guys 'sin' was believing a prophet of the lord.

who was a liar.

we know that the liar was a prophet because god talked to both of them, plus the bible calls him a prophet.

if we just use a direct comparason of what a prophet says to what god says then what jesus said was false.
so THAT can't work, eh ?

yes sir. but we all know that. right? Isnt it a given? The confusion starts at 'how'. Which is the intent here to clarify. care to help out?

actually many people are of the opinion that jesus died so that EVERYBODY would be able to choose salvation, that salvation was no longer strictly limited to those chosen by god.

all jesus did was allow god to choose to save a few non-jews.

so what is god looking for in a cantidate for salvation ?

the most recent term describing the required quality is "sociopath"

a person who has no capability of telling good from evil.

a person who is ABLE to totally yield judgement to another, in this case god.

god wants people who can cheerfully take up a knife to sacrifice his child, and who won't be disappointed when god backs out.
or doesn't.

if that is not you, you are screwed.

good stuff you two. Got to run to work...ill reply later.

that makes total sense, except that the other guy was a prophet who also spoke with the LORD.

so our guys 'sin' was believing a prophet of the lord.

who was a liar.

we know that the liar was a prophet because god talked to both of them, plus the bible calls him a prophet.

if we just use a direct comparason of what a prophet says to what god says then what jesus said was false.
so THAT can't work, eh ?

wrong--the other guy CLAIMED to be a prophet who spoke to the Lord.

Moral of the story is simple--if God tells you something Himself, you take His word over that of someone else. Make sense yet? Even if the guy really was a prophet, when you get your message right from God, why would you choose to listen to a man instead? That is the part you missed here.

Also, comparing a prophet to Jesus is nonsense. Any human can claim to be a prophet, but there was only one Jesus Christ, and He was more than just a prophet. He was not sent to preach or deliver a message, like a prophet would be.....he was sent to take on the burden of man's sins so that there would be salvation for those who followed God. Without a prophet, there would have to be another way to get that message across, but without Christ, there would be no hope of salvation whatsoever. That's kinda a huge difference, honegod....yeah....

read it again:

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

Prophet or no prophet, it clearly states that the other guy lied when he said this. Which goes back to what I said--when the Lord tells you something himself, you follow that over the voice of a man, especially a man that you have never even met before. Besides, where does it say that this guy was a prophet OF THE LORD? There were many who claimed to be prophets back then--remember, this is old testament times, and corrupted versions of spirituality were everywhere. The guy is simply called a prophet. Where do you see what doctrine he followed? where do you see anything that tells you what kind of prophet he was? You DONT....for good reason....

wrong--the other guy CLAIMED to be a prophet who spoke to the Lord.

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:



Moral of the story is simple--if God tells you something Himself, you take His word over that of someone else. Make sense yet? Even if the guy really was a prophet, when you get your message right from God, why would you choose to listen to a man instead? That is the part you missed here.

the problem is that god communicates through prophets, so disbelieving a prophet of god is disbelieving god.
moses for example.

He was not sent to preach or deliver a message, like a prophet would be.....he was sent to take on the burden of man's sins so that there would be salvation for those who followed God. Without a prophet, there would have to be another way to get that message across, but without Christ, there would be no hope of salvation whatsoever. That's kinda a huge difference, honegod....yeah....

until the brutal human sacrifice jesus WAS a prophet, a man who spoke the words of god. if he was other than a man his sacrifice would not have applied TO men.
moses did miracles fully equal to those performed by jesus, also acting as an agent of god, not through personal power.



Prophet or no prophet, it clearly states that the other guy lied when he said this. Which goes back to what I said--when the Lord tells you something himself, you follow that over the voice of a man, especially a man that you have never even met before. Besides, where does it say that this guy was a prophet OF THE LORD? There were many who claimed to be prophets back then--remember, this is old testament times, and corrupted versions of spirituality were everywhere. The guy is simply called a prophet. Where do you see what doctrine he followed? where do you see anything that tells you what kind of prophet he was? You DONT....for good reason....

sorry that I omitted parts of the text, #20 shows that god spoke directly to the liar, establishing that he was a prophet of the LORD .
a false prophet would NO be spoken to by god, that is what prophets are for.

unless he was a retroactive prophet he was already established as a prophet before he lied.

I find it interesting that god did not punish the liar.
lying about the word of god is a lesser offence than believing the liar.

actually many people are of the opinion that jesus died so that EVERYBODY would be able to choose salvation, that salvation was no longer strictly limited to those chosen by god.

all jesus did was allow god to choose to save a few non-jews.

Let's play pretend game. Cool?

IF Jesus KNEW he was NOT God, why do you suppose he went through all the troble and getting himself killed?

Hey...
I am going to change the rules on the steps. Because I dont like where it is going. If I want to get to heaven, I rather 'hear' it from either God or Jesus. Is there any direct words from those two on how to get to heaven?

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:





the problem is that god communicates through prophets, so disbelieving a prophet of god is disbelieving god.
moses for example.



until the brutal human sacrifice jesus WAS a prophet, a man who spoke the words of god. if he was other than a man his sacrifice would not have applied TO men.
moses did miracles fully equal to those performed by jesus, also acting as an agent of god, not through personal power.





sorry that I omitted parts of the text, #20 shows that god spoke directly to the liar, establishing that he was a prophet of the LORD .
a false prophet would NO be spoken to by god, that is what prophets are for.

unless he was a retroactive prophet he was already established as a prophet before he lied.

I find it interesting that god did not punish the liar.
lying about the word of god is a lesser offence than believing the liar.

1--why do you try to cherry-pick verses to prove a point???

when you quoted #20, you left out what God actually SAID to this "prophet"....dont you think that is relevant?? I sure do...lets see what you tried to sweep under the rug for the sake of your argument:

21And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
22But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

The Lord told the "prophet" that the guy screwed up! God doesnt need you to be a prophet to tell you that you screwed up, contrary to your belief as you stated above. That does not make the "prophet" an actual prophet of the Lord any more than it makes me one because I quoted scripture!

Also, the old testament contains examples of men being tested by God--to see how strong their faith was. Abraham and Isaac is probably the most well-known example of this. This man was tested by God, and he failed the test. Again, you tried to use this as an example of a guy with a true heart being rejected by God, and you failed. Stop trying to change the point of your argument now, because you goofed on the original one that you posted that scripture for. If all it took was one man saying "I'm a prophet, it's ok to go against the Lord's earlier command..." to shake this guy's faith, then he obviously did NOT have a true heart for God. You tried, and you failed. Understand?

My original challenge still stands--show me one genuine example of God turning away someone with a true heart for Him....when you cannot do that, maybe you will learn something from that fact.

the problem is that god communicates through prophets, so disbelieving a prophet of god is disbelieving god.
moses for example.

The Bereans are a perfect answer for what you are saying here. The Bereans were told all sorts of things--they took everything that they were told and compared it to the standard--God's Word--so that they would not be fooled. God communicates through many people at many different times, not just "prophets". Also, that does not automatically mean that we are to listen to someone just because they say "I am a prophet of God....". Think about that one, and the sheer obvious nature will come to you as to why that would be a bad idea.

The guy said "I am also a prophet". He did not say "I am a prophet of God". People can be prophets for many things, and usually are....being a prophet does not in itself make anything you say the intent of God. Whenever God has sent a prophet, it was in the scriptures....John the Baptist came as a prophet himself--to tell that Christ was coming. There was no mystery involved--it was told....the only choice was whether or not to belileve it. In the end, this guy had two options....

--follow what he KNEW came from the Lord....
--follow what a complete stranger claimed came from the Lord...

When it is put in that picture, the answer is obvious. if you KNOW that God told you something, and you cannot possibly be as sure of what the stranger is saying to you, you go with what you KNOW. Make sense?

until the brutal human sacrifice jesus WAS a prophet, a man who spoke the words of god. if he was other than a man his sacrifice would not have applied TO men.
moses did miracles fully equal to those performed by jesus, also acting as an agent of god, not through personal power.

Moses did not go as far as Jesus did. Show me where Moses walked on water. Let's see the scripture that talks of Moses feeding five thousand people from five loaves of bread and two fish. Also, you touched on something that really tells the difference--Moses was a man that did the things he did by the power of God, working through him. Jesus is the son of God, that is a big difference. Jesus did what he did because of who he was, Moses did because God used him in that manner.

The disciples also performed miracles at times....that does not put them in the same boat as Jesus by any means. Moses was a man--he sinned, he was not perfect....Jesus was....in the end, Jesus performed the greatest miracle of all--he took on the sins of all of us and died for us. Show me where Moses came close to that. Imagine this-Jesus came here fully knowing what he had to do. he knew the pain that was in his future. He came here anyways. I highly recommend reading the medical account of the crucifixion--seriously. The injuries that Jesus sustained are beyond thought. Imagine for a minute, that you had to make 33 years of choices, knowing full well what those choices were going to lead you to.....and them making them anyways.....no 50 men, Moses included, could even think of touching that.

sorry that I omitted parts of the text, #20 shows that god spoke directly to the liar, establishing that he was a prophet of the LORD .
a false prophet would NO be spoken to by god, that is what prophets are for.

Not only did I address this above, but he was a man, and men are imperfect. When you have the words of the Lord in front of you, and you ignore them in favor of someone that may or may not be telling the truth, you do not by any stretch have a true heart. If it is that easy to forget your faith, then you dont have very much faith. Dont you get the point?? Even prophets sin, right? Therefore, the guy should have known that he was taking that chance by listening to someone who called himself a prophet. The guy did not even have any way of knowing for sure if this really was a prophet! The Lord spoke to him after the man ignored his instruction---so your point that this is a prophet is moot. He did not know for certain, and even then he chose to ignore God's previous instruction....that is the point.

I find it interesting that god did not punish the liar.
lying about the word of god is a lesser offence than believing the liar.

You will find that many times, such things in the Bible do not conclude the story as you would want. The point of that scripture was not to tell what happens when you lie--that is why there is no description of the consequence for the prophet there. The point was to tell what happens when your faith is that weak, and it did that nicely.

yeah...i'll wait until you two hash it out first.

Hey...
I am going to change the rules on the steps. Because I dont like where it is going. If I want to get to heaven, I rather 'hear' it from either God or Jesus. Is there any direct words from those two on how to get to heaven?

Everything that was listed for you came right out of Gods word. I know what you are asking, but the fact is this--if one could undeniably prove the existence of God to a complete certainty, then there would be no faith whatsoever. God's Word and faith are all that we have. The way I look at it, if having faith in God is wrong, then I lose nothing. But if it is right, and I dont have that faith, I stand to lose like no tomorrow....so in the end, even if there was no God, I would not have lost anything.

If you do not like where it is going, then you always have the option of choosing not to follow there. Everyone has that choice. If it is not in your heart then you would only be wasting your time, honestly.

Everything that was listed for you came right out of Gods word. I know what you are asking, but the fact is this--if one could undeniably prove the existence of God to a complete certainty, then there would be no faith whatsoever. God's Word and faith are all that we have. The way I look at it, if having faith in God is wrong, then I lose nothing. But if it is right, and I dont have that faith, I stand to lose like no tomorrow....so in the end, even if there was no God, I would not have lost anything.

If you do not like where it is going, then you always have the option of choosing not to follow there. Everyone has that choice. If it is not in your heart then you would only be wasting your time, honestly.

Well written, sky.

I'll go ahead and research. It'll take time. So there isn't anything Jesus or God said about going to heaven? Anything close? Oh, 10 commandments...right? Anything else?

I was under the impression that Heaven was not the goal, but rather that it was to obtain a stronger, more intimate relationship with God. If we play the game only to best suit ourselves, I hardly see how that would please God.

Your guess is as good as ours, ark. I am profoudly amazed that there isnt any lititure of jesus himself telling us the steps to get to heaven. Or even god. Cep how to behave yourself.

I understand peter, paul, etc etc and the lot telling stuff. But dang! Come on Jesus. tell us HOW! not these guys that 'dissed' you in times of troble!

excellent post

one of a very few on this forum anymore!

This place isn't so bad....

Your guess is as good as ours, ark. I am profoudly amazed that there isnt any lititure of jesus himself telling us the steps to get to heaven. Or even god. Cep how to behave yourself.

I understand peter, paul, etc etc and the lot telling stuff. But dang! Come on Jesus. tell us HOW! not these guys that 'dissed' you in times of troble!

Go read the gospel sometime....you will see more than a few times where Jesus talked about getting to the Kingdom.....what you see of disciples, such as Peter, telling others is what came after Jesus was risen...

I am still looking for something that Jesus said in reference on how to get to heaven. Instead of leafing through pages of stories and typings em in here, I found a web page with jesus stuff. Go ahead and scutinize what you see. It is ok. Meanwhile, I am looking it over and try to make sinse in all this.---good luck





The below was copied from : www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu

Critical scholars, using the most rigorous historical-critical critera, have concluded that the following statements of Jesus from the Synoptic tradition are unquestionably authentic. This is not so say that other materials are necessarily inauthentic, but that these particular sayings are at the core of the unedited tradition. These results are based on the work of Norman Perrin and R. H. Fuller. More recently Dominic Crossan has expanded the list considerably, but eliminated the apocalyptic elements that Perrin and Fuller felt were basic.


KINGDOM OF GOD

The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand. (Mk 1:15a)

But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Lk 11:20)

The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, "Lo, here it is!" or "There!" for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Lk 17:20-21)

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of Heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence plunder it. (Matt 11:12)


PARABLES IN THEIR NONALLEGORICAL FORM

Samaritan (Lk 10-30-36) Demand to say what cannot be said

Unjust Steward (Lk 16:1-9) Demand to applaud what cannot be applauded

Pharisee & Publican (Lk 18-10-14) Reversal of judgement

Wedding Guest (Lk 14:7-11) World turned upside down

Hidden Treasure/Pearl (Mt 13:44-46) Total, radical turn


PROVERBIAL SAYINGS

Leave the dead to bury their own dead (Lk 9:60a)

If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Mt 5:39b-41

For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake [Perrin suggests here the original would have read, "for the sake of the Kingdom of God"] and the gospel's will save it. (Mk 8:35)

How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! . . . it is easier for a camel (rope) to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Mk 10:23b, 25)

But many that are first will be last, and the last first (Mk 10:31)

Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Lk 14:11)

He who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. (Lk 9:62)

There is nothing outside a person, which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a person are what defile him. (Mk 7:15)

Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child cannot enter it. (Lk 10:15)

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you . . . (Mt 5:44f)

Swear not at all, let your yes be yes, your no be no . . . (Mt 5:34f)

Some version of divorce teaching: Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.


LORD'S PRAYER (Luke 11:2-4)

Father [Abba?], hallowed be your name
Your kingdom come!
Give us each day our daily bread.
And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us.
And do not bring us to the time of trial.

I think these are the final canidates. I will have to look into the versus a little more to draw out their meanings. Again, please feel free to scrutinize these.


But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Lk 11:20)

For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake [Perrin suggests here the original would have read, "for the sake of the Kingdom of God"] and the gospel's will save it. (Mk 8:35)

How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! . . . it is easier for a camel (rope) to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Mk 10:23b, 25)

He who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. (Lk 9:62)

Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child cannot enter it. (Lk 10:15)

c'mon, don't get into a cut and paste game with liberal "scholars" who "decided" certain parts of the Bible are "not authentic"

read the gospels, decide for yourself

Hi YZf. thank you for your involvement in this matter. Sometimes you aren't clear. If I read your statement correctly, you do not believe these words are from jesus?

You don't think this is important. I'm fine with that. really. This thread is about me and my direction.

however, you made some statements and careless adjectives about my source. Thus, you were not being clear.

I am being very careful about this so everyone's input needs to be clear.

And my question to you was clear. A question you could not answer. Is these not the words from Jesus?

oh it's important, but you are frivolous



:rolleyes:

I understand. Hard to read people's emotions on these forums. My moment with jesus was a sincere statement from me. he does read these forums...do you think?

No personal attacks. - $100T2

good stuff, but one question...if its so "simple" to get into heaven, why all the b.s. about going to church all the time, working for god, etc. Wouldn't god want you to be happy, to be doing things that make you happy, not "punishing" you for "sinning" because you are gay, like animals, or just like orgies, etc. You get my point. I would expect, that IF I believed, that would be enough, we have enough rules for society, we don't need more, for something that doesn't really exist. Its like your 6 year old daughter laying down rules when she plays house, she'll break most of them in the first 30 seconds anyways, so why bother?

*Warning* All my posts in the religion section are NOT meant to be mean, or to belittle anyones sense of being with God, they are merely my own thoughts as they occur, and are here for entertainment purposes only*Warning End*

Wouldn't god want you to be happy, to be doing things that make you happy, not "punishing" you for "sinning"


naaaw, this life IS punishment for the 'sin' of another {adam}.

the point of this thread is how to escape FURTHER 'punishment' after death.

the only sure way to reach heaven is to strap on an explosive vest and punish some unbelievers.

No personal attacks. - $100T2

the purpose of life is to drive you to point of frustration attempting to keep God's Law: to the point you realize it is impossible...that without God's grace, you cannot possibly be declared righteous

god makes up nonsensical rules so you will have to beg him to forgive you for breaking them, this makes him feel important.

:bowdown: :screwyou:

lol

that's why you conclude "people are just animals" in the "clues" thread :rolleyes:

But we are. We are mammels

and btw, the very fact you are still posting in the "clues there is no God" thread shows your true agenda here

so let's dispense with the sideshow.

You very well know what this thread spawned from, my friend. you couldn't help me. You failed to give me the steps to get me to heaven. So I am asking for everyone's help. And I made myself very clear in my posts of this thread, if you were reading, I dont believe in god. But if I am going to understand how to get to heaven, I am expecting to read JESUS words. Not paul peter mark you or sky or whatever. And so far, jesus bascially states...be poor. Looks like I am not going to heaven. Nether are you. however, mother teresa is.

EDIT: And I'm glad about that. She deserves it.

Jesus is quoted directly throughout the gospels

any word of testimony was always established by at least three witnesses in the O.T.

you, sir, are dumb

Correct! And not offended! :)

So that brings us to the same old argument. How the hell am i going to get to heaven being so fucking dumb?

You stated "beleieve that Jesus yuka yuka yuka...."
And I said "yuka yuka yuka"
and then you said..."Czar, you are a blaspheming idiot. i cant help you sinced you waste me time"

Cant you see? Im too dumb to get to heaven. I cant see how you guys believe in god when there isnt proof cep from cavemen and such. I dont see the magic even today. no one cant do that stuff.

I need proof man!

here's a little hint chief, mother teresa is DEAD

and based on her theology, she is not in heaven

Well, since you yourself routinely say that the only thing that gets anyone to heaven is GOD'S GRACE, that means that you are in no position whatsoever to even try to make such a determination. you fail again...

I said "read the gospels and decide for yourself"

that's too much work for lazy, apathetic minds who want everything spoon fed to them

Say this YZF. It will bring more respect to you.

"Czar, I believe you are lazy in this regard. I grow tire of showing non believers proof after proof and still get no results. you are on your own and good luck. I really do wish you well but I really need to move on."

Cant you see? Im too dumb to get to heaven. I cant see how you guys believe in god when there isnt proof cep from cavemen and such. I dont see the magic even today. no one cant do that stuff.

I need proof man!

SEE!??

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17646670&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=miracle-is-sunk--name_page.html

30 August 2006
MIRACLE IS SUNK

A PRIEST has died after trying to demonstrate how Jesus walked on water.

Evangelist preacher Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation he could repeat the biblical miracle.

But he drowned after walking out to sea from a beach in the capital Libreville in Gabon, west Africa.

One eyewitness said: "He told churchgoers he'd had a revelation that if he had enough faith, he could walk on water like Jesus.

"He took his congregation to the beach saying he would walk across the Komo estuary, which takes 20 minutes by boat.

"He walked into the water, which soon passed over his head and he never came back."

foolish man

do not put the Lord your God to the test
Agreed. And HE GOT THE WHOLE CONGREGATION TO BELIEVE HIM!

No personal attacks. - $100T2

nonsensical rules?

the Law of God is perfect

the law of god is perfect for causing hate, confusion, and fear in humanity.

which is the point of the law of god.


it's highly unlikely she's in the Kingdom

she is asleep. no way is she in heaven, until I detonate the Judgement Throne.

or perhaps that's you?

Well, now how would that be me, Marky??? Arent you the guy that goes on and on forever about how I am not saved, not a Christian, not worth anything, demonic, blah blah blah??? If I am really all those things, then how could that be me, genius?? How could I put my salvation to the test in your eyes, when you only think that I am a demonic worthless cancerous enemy?? If I really was all the things you have claimed, I would not have salvation, would I?? you fail yet again....

Now you are so wrapped up in your own hype that you cannot even keep your own stories and insults straight!!

But in any case, nope, I am sure it's you. You test God's forgiveness each and every day...you choose to sin--you know your actions are wrong, yet you do them anyways, and you then say "it's ok, all I need to do is repent and all is cool...."

A REAL man of God would not go around flaunting himself in his own sin and pride the way you do. Sure, no one is perfect, but you could at least make an effort--and you dont. You used to blame it on the insults that someone else said, like me or Dennis....but now that no one does that to you, you still cannot help yourself but to act like a fool and insult others anyways. Man, I didnt even post in here for a while and you were still the same old rude arrogant prideful Mark, so perhaps it is time for Marky Mark to start worrying about himself for once--it seems that you have forgotten all about the committment you made. Just like the scripture that honegod posted the other day, when I asked for an example of a true heart being turned away, you are so quick to dicth your faith and the committment you made just to insult someone over the internet.

That is the difference between you and me....I know I am not worthy. You only claim to know it, and then you proceed to think and act as if everyone else shoudl bow down to you. you even go as far as to make ridiculously ignorant comments in here about how this place would be a cess pool of ignorance if not for you. Get a clue....

simple: if God's wrath is spared from us who are barely escaping, it is poured out in full fury on people like you

but no, you dont judge anyone, right Mark???

You can stop lying now....I am sure that God is about as fooled as we are...

y'all left out step 0 - god deciding to offer you salvation.


Acts 2:39
for all whom the Lord our God will call

without step 0 none of the rest can possibly work because you are born a weed, destined for the fyre.

Well, honegod, if we look to the scriptures, we again see that there appears to be a rather huge contradiction here....

MATTHEW 7:7-14

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

According to that scripture, EVERYONE who seeks will find...not just the ones that God hand-picked. EVERYONE who truly seeks with their heart will find....

Marky, this is to you as well....seeing how you used your false interpretation as some sort of insult before.

It is also plainly obvious that God did not just hand-pick a select group of the few--because He sent the faithful(and continues to command this today) to go out and save those who are lost among them. If God already had His select group, the great commission would not have been needed in any way. The goal, as stated in the scriptures, is to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, not just of the select little group that God picked out. While I can agree that God knows ahead of time who will and who will not heed the message, the fact is that He leaves that door open to anyone that wishes to take it with their heart. Knowing what someone would choose to do is not the same as choosing it for them, people.

EDIT--about the passage you quoted...."for whom the Lord will call....", well, the Lord will call some INTO THE KINGDOM....but that does not mean that the beginning of the process comes from a list like that. This is not like Santa Claus checking it twice, because by God's standard, we all have been naughty. God knows what we will choose before we choose it, but "for whom the Lord will call" can just as easily refer to "who will be called into eternal life after they die...", and not "who will have that opportunity and who wont...."

If you read the scriptures, it is clear that this salvation is offered to ALL, but only a small group will take what is offered with a true heart. Nonetheless, the offer still stands....

welcome back sky and yzf

Honegod went vacation or something

Well, honegod, if we look to the scriptures, we again see that there appears to be a rather huge contradiction here....

yup,and since there cannot possibly any contradictions there must be some way to weasle out of it.

According to that scripture, EVERYONE who seeks will find...not just the ones that God hand-picked. EVERYONE who truly seeks with their heart will find....

and the only ones who CAN seek are those who god has chosen to show WHAT to seek.

for example, pre jesus ONLY jews could POSSIBLY be saved from gods wrath because he CHOSE them to offer the possibility of salvation to.

no egyptian praying to the god of the jews for salvation from the plagues would be heard by god.

so, you cannot find what you are not looking for, and the only way to know to look for jesus is if god tells you.


If God already had His select group, the great commission would not have been needed in any way. The goal, as stated in the scriptures, is to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, not just of the select little group that God picked out. While I can agree that God knows ahead of time who will and who will not heed the message, the fact is that He leaves that door open to anyone that wishes to take it with their heart. Knowing what someone would choose to do is not the same as choosing it for them, people.

which would be true if god had not commissioned satan to ALSO preach a myriad of FALSE messages so that each person must choose between them.

it is only god who shows the true path to those he has chosen so they may then choose to walk it.


"for whom the Lord will call" can just as easily refer to "who will be called into eternal life after they die...", and not "who will have that opportunity and who won't...."

If you read the scriptures, it is clear that this salvation is offered to ALL, but only a small group will take what is offered with a true heart. Nonetheless, the offer still stands....

if a blind man could turn to the light, and follow the path without ever actually seeing where he was going and make it through the narrow gate without knowing the password {emmanuel} maybe.

but we are designed not to be able to do this.


I go offline at 0800 sunday the 3rd

well, again, that puts the focus back on human effort, and why you and I will always disagree on the topic of Election/predestination

Ephesians 1

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 9

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Say what you will, Mark, but that was not ME saying it--I clearly showed SCRIPTURE saying "everyone that seeks shall find". You cannot rebut that with more scripture--because all that does is present a contradiction. Stop trying to make this like I said something wrong or that I dont understand, comprehend, etc etc etc. The Bible is where I got that from....it isnt like I made it up or anything.

If the BIBLE says "everyone that seeks shall find", and the BIBLE also says "only those who are chosen....", then perhaps you are the one who is mistaken here, not me. You see the OFFER is there to everyone--hence the "everyone who seeks shall find" part. The ones that are called are the ones who God chooses based on their response to that offer. In other words, being chosen is what is uncommon, and the only ones who are chosen are those who heed God's call--but He offers the same salvation to all, like the scripture itself clearly states....The Gospel is proof of this....for example, the story of the rich man....Jesus dropped that offer right in his lap--the offer of eternal life in the Kingdom. But he was not one of the chosen, because he did not heed the call. See the difference??? It is really not that difficult....

This concludes our scripture clarification lesson for today. Same time, next week....

You cannot rebut that with more scripture--because all that does is present a contradiction.

Welcome to the real bible friends :rock:

correction jonnie, I'm not "rebutting" the scripture, I am rebutting YOU, and your ignorant babblings

scripture is absolutely synergistic, and granted this is a complex issue, but, unlike you, I never dismiss any scripture to build my mentality of error, I know all scripture must fit together, because it all comes from God...and it dos fit together to the educated mind....I've read quite a bit on this subject from the brightest authors, including Tozer and John Piper ("The Pleasures of God" is a fantastic book)...who have you read? Dr. Seuss? these people leave you light years behind in their understanding

election is a FACT...the will to believe does NOT originate in the heart of man...God CHOOSES those who will believe...period! the verses you have quoted fit together perfectly with Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 when they are taken in context with the multi faceted priorities of God's will, which I do not claim to fully understand, but neither do I just chuck passages that don't line up with my particular theology...you have proven time and time and time again to be a scripture "cherry picker" (which is why I don't respect anything you ever say, among other reasons)...you pick what suits you and dispose of the rest, but you're a fool

And again, like I just told you, the OFFER of God's grace and the ACTION OF TAKING THAT OFFER are NOT THE SAME THING. God's grace is offered to ALL, but few will truly take it, and God knows who those few are. It is God's action that his grace is offered, but it is A PERSON'S ACTION whether or not they commit to following God! Let me spell it out more simply--if God picked each and every person that was going to be in the Kingdom, why was the great commission even announced then? Why would Jesus have to command all followers to go and spread God's Word if God already knew who was coming and there was no chance for anyone else??? Give it a rest, Mark....now you are even going against what God has commanded of His faithful!

1--God OFFERS salvation to those who will follow
2--some CHOOSE TO FOLLOW

Arent you always talking about how God wants free will to be a factor? When someone says "why doesnt God just make people follow?", you are right there with the "free will" concept, arent you? IF IT IS TO BE FREE WILL, THEN GOD CANNOT PERSONALLY PICK AND CHOOSE WHO HE WILL ALLOW AND WHO HE WILL NOT. In order for true free will to play a part, the OFFER must be made to ALL and then FREE WILL can run its course! You cannot contradict yourself like that and expect to win anyone over....believe that. You cannot preach free will and then say God chooses every last one, with no hope for anyone else who may even want to follow!

I don't preach free will when it comes to salvation, and you won't find that doctrine anywhere in scripture

wouldnt be the first time that you pressed a point that was not in scripture, Mark, and wont be the last I am certain...

Sorry, although I have seen YZF peeking about, I am betting he wont reply to you. You are talking to a ghost, imo. Since you know derfman and I are about, why dont you argue with us? Quit being friendly and take over our souls.

EDIT: and roadrace!

Religious debates make me lol. :D :bigthumb:

at least until you're dead :bigthumb:

That statement only applies to you, yzf. Some of us dont live in fear. Havent you figured that out yet?

including u