One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"

He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"

In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Moral of the story: man's love for God must be unconditional but God's love for man is not.

God acknowledges that Job did not sin and still suffered. It is impossible to understand why bad things happen, and it is wrong when people make believe that they know why certain bad things happen.

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Moral of the story: man's love for God must be unconditional but God's love for man is not.

Is this just an attack? Have you read the rest of the story? How is Job rewarded at the end of the story? Re-read your Basic Information Before Leaving Earth.

Meh, I'm still not very fond of the story of Job.

To settle the matter, God Himself appears in a cloud and decides in favour of Job, but He did not approve of the harsh words Job used in his suffering. Job humbly acknowledges his fault and asks forgiveness. The Lord condemns his friends, and directs them to make amends for their sins with sacrifices, coupled with Job's prayers. He restores Job to good health, gives him double the riches he had previously possessed, blesses him with a beautiful and numerous family, and crowns a holy life with a happy death. Job lived 140 years after his time of trial, 248 years in all, long enough even to see his great-grandchildren.(Job 32-42)

if god is good and rules all, then why is there evil in the world
why do bad things happen to otherwise good people

there is a greater plan beyond your comprehension
or
evil exists because through struggle is born the greater beauty (a very tolkien answer)

etc.

Is this just an attack?

Not an attack, merely an observation.

Have you read the rest of the story?

Yes I have.

How is Job rewarded at the end of the story? Re-read your Basic Information Before Leaving Earth.

How he was rewarded does not disprove my initial thought. Would Job have been rewarded had he failed the test? If so then why test him at all? This leads me to believe that God's love for Job is conditional.

Does God love those who dwell in Hell?

How he was rewarded does not disprove my initial thought. Would Job have been rewarded had he failed the test? If so then why test him at all? This leads me to believe that God's love for Job is conditional.

I understand your initial thought and I see how you come to this conclusion. God does love mankind first and unconditionally. He proves this in the sacrifice of Jesus. As far as Job goes, God already knew what would happen with Job and how he would fail. And despite this, he still rewards him.

Consider this. My 4 year old son is hungry and he's crying becuase he wants a chocolate bar. In the meantime, I'm making a perfectly healthy meal for him that will provide nutrients for his body and energy to last several hours. Am I cruel because I withhold the chocolate bar? In his understanding I am but in reality I'm providing him with what he really needs. Now this doesn't translate perfectly with Job, but it does shed light on how we must endure trials for a greater blessing. A walk with God doesn't promise an easy perfect life free of problems. Just the opposite. But we are to understand that our problems are there that we may be built up by God.

Does God love those who dwell in Hell?Good question. I do not know of a verse that answers this.

I understand your initial thought and I see how you come to this conclusion. God does love mankind first and unconditionally. He proves this in the sacrifice of Jesus. As far as Job goes, God already knew what would happen with Job and how he would fail. And despite this, he still rewards him.
The author of this story never suggested god knew about any outcome with Job. Only confidence that Job wont fail, when tempted with satan.

Consider this. My 4 year old son is hungry and he's crying becuase he wants a chocolate bar. In the meantime, I'm making a perfectly healthy meal for him that will provide nutrients for his body and energy to last several hours. Am I cruel because I withhold the chocolate bar? In his understanding I am but in reality I'm providing him with what he really needs. Now this doesn't translate perfectly with Job, but it does shed light on how we must endure trials for a greater blessing. A walk with God doesn't promise an easy perfect life free of problems. Just the opposite. But we are to understand that our problems are there that we may be built up by God.
Nice try but in reality, god would have slained your son. I guess It brings good nutrients. We dont need to understand how murdering is good if it comes from god. Its wrong and plain stupid. I guess I am smarter than god.

I understand your initial thought and I see how you come to this conclusion. God does love mankind first and unconditionally. He proves this in the sacrifice of Jesus. As far as Job goes, God already knew what would happen with Job and how he would fail. And despite this, he still rewards him.


So God sacrificed Jesus and now everyone, regardless of their thoughts, actions and beliefs is granted salvation? No? Then God’s love is not unconditional. On the flip side, if I am tested and God takes from me everything on this earth that I cherish and value and in turn I curse His name, what becomes of me?

Jacob I loved and Essau I hated....

it's that kind of divergence....God sets His love upon those He has predetined

He creates the damned for the sole purpose of hating them.

So God sacrificed Jesus and now everyone, regardless of their thoughts, actions and beliefs is granted salvation? No? Then God’s love is not unconditional. On the flip side, if I am tested and God takes from me everything on this earth that I cherish and value and in turn I curse His name, what becomes of me?


Not everyone gets saved. The sacrifice of Jesus is open to all (unconditional love) but they must take it for salvation. If you don't want God, then he doesn't force you.

Cursing God is not the unforgiveable sin. It's still open for you to be redeemed.

Does this make sense yet?

What is your opinion about God and do you think Jesus was the messiah?

Not everyone gets saved. The sacrifice of Jesus is open to all (unconditional love) but they must take it for salvation. If you don't want God, then he doesn't force you.

Perhaps you and I disagree on what exactly constitutes “unconditional love”. To me, it means that regardless of what a person does and despite whatever opinion they may have of me; I will love this person just the same. To say “my love is great and thus I offer it to all” is not unconditional because the condition is that one must accept it.

So now the question is: if one does not accept Christ’s sacrifice and is not saved, is this person still loved by God? Judging by the recourse, I tend to believe that the answer is no.

Cursing God is not the unforgiveable sin. It's still open for you to be redeemed.

Supposing that I am past the point of redemption because I longer seek it, what becomes of me?

What is your opinion about God and do you think Jesus was the messiah?

I likely share many of the same beliefs that you hold. Like you, I do believe that Jesus was the son of God; however the concept of Hell is something which I have trouble with (such to the point where I do not believe that it exists). One who loves all and yet renders unspeakable agony upon those not deemed fit for salvation is something that I see as an inconsistency. In my mind, Hell is the human influence of the spoken Word.

actually that isn't true....it's never about the wicked human heart 'taking' salvation, or seeking anything good whatsoever...it's about God first seeking the man

Christ died for the sins of mankind, yes, but God in His foreknowledge has not elected most to believe and so be saved

YZF, throw me a bone here. I'm firm on my election, yet I find it still a bit mysterious. How do I explain this? A person who is elected will sincerely surrender. On the outside it may seem that they're 'accepting/surrendering' whatever you want to call it but inwardly we know that this is only evidence of the re-birth.

So now the question is: if one does not accept Christ’s sacrifice and is not saved, is this person still loved by God? Judging by the recourse, I tend to believe that the answer is no.

Ultimately, if he does not love those he doesn't elect, then what business is it of ours to argue with God. He is soveriegn. You raise good questions but I don't think they will get anyone off the hook on judgement day. How is it fair that God would create people just to endure hell for eternity? Heavy stuff there. I've read a book or 2 discussing this topic and I am still bewildered by it. But where I do not understand these things, I can understand how the prophecy of the coming Messiah is fulfilled by Jesus.


Supposing that I am past the point of redemption because I longer seek it, what becomes of me?

You're lost, destined to spend eternity separated from God.

Ultimately, if he does not love those he doesn't elect, then what business is it of ours to argue with God.

I am not arguing with God, I am arguing with bx7.

He is soveriegn. You raise good questions but I don't think they will get anyone off the hook on judgement day.

I do not seek to spare anyone from their judgment.

How is it fair that God would create people just to endure hell for eternity?

It is entirely fair. God created us so He gets to make the rules, just don’t call it unconditional love.

Heavy stuff there. I've read a book or 2 discussing this topic and I am still bewildered by it. But where I do not understand these things, I can understand how the prophecy of the coming Messiah is fulfilled by Jesus.

Here is where you and I seem to differ. If something (such as the concept of Hell) seems to logically defy something else that I hold to be true, I can not merely look away and submit my mind to ignorance. Even if I were to attempt to do so I would not genuinely believe which would be no different than openly stating "there is no Hell."


You're lost, destined to spend eternity separated from God.

So God's love is conditional. Thanks for clarifying.

....I love the passage (Jesus speaking) that says (paraphrased) [/i]the kingdom of heaven is continually advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it[/i]


Matthew 11:12
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.


Ha Ha, I love it too. I'm going to be posting that one in the interesting Bible verse thread soon.

I am not arguing with God, I am arguing with bx7.

Arguing, no, more like discussing.

It is entirely fair. God created us so He gets to make the rules, just don’t call it unconditional love.

OK. I see your point of view. I would say that his love is unconditional to the elect, who will regardless of there sins, be redeemed by God. Those who will not be elected he does seem to still present a lesser form of unconditional love in that he gives them life and common grace.

destined to spend eternity separated from God.

no, what god created he sustains, what god stops sustaining cannot continue to exist.

god created hell, and for hell to continue to exist god must sustain it.

so those cursed to hell will always be united with that portion of god that HATES them and sees to it that their unbearable punishment continues.

Good call. I remember saying almost the exact same thing in the RX-7 Club. The only reason that God would send man to Hell is because He enjoys doing so.

yah, it is silly how some folks talk about the all powerful god being forced to allow sin and evil in his creation, and the creator of everything having to battle his creation, satan.



why God elects some and not others is a profound mystery, but God delights in whatver glorifies Himself, and without struggle, suffering and great darkness, there would be no light, and no praise (or the intensity of that praise would be diminished)....

for there to be a winner there MUST be a loser, and the more losers, and the more they lose, the brighter the winner shines by contrast.

what a horrible monsterous honorless attitude.

to create helpless losers, and to create an eternal hell to maximally degrade those losers so that He will shine more brightly in contrast to their continual destruction.

:bowdown: :screwyou: