Titus 2

11 For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.

For those who said that salvation has absolutely nothing to do with anything but God's grace, explain this:

2 Peter 1:10-11

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Here, we see Peter telling the people that THEY are to do things to MAKE THEIR ELECTION CERTAIN. But how could that be possible according to those that claim differently? Was Peter being truthful there, or was he talking nonsense, when he told them to work to make sure that they would be called to the elect?

Then, he tells them IF YOU DO THESE THINGS YOU WILL BE WELCOMED INTO THE KINGDOM. Again, what things could a man do to get there? Some of you have said that there is only one part to salvation, and that is God's grace. But I submit to you that there are in fact two things--

1--God offers His grace to "all mankind", just as the Bible says
2--that grace must be accepted with belief.

Just as the Bible says, God causes the sun to rise over the wicked as well as the righteous, no? I think that some of you are confusing the concept of predestination here. I never doubted that the chosen are already known to God, but what I have also said is that God knows every choice we will make before we make it. Therefore, OF COURSE He will know ahead of time who will be in Heaven! He knows ahead of time who will believe and who will not!

Finally, the whole concept of "how do you think someone can believe, if not because of grace?" is ridiculous as an argument. This is simply because of the fact that EVERYTHING we do is only because God created us in tha fashion. We can only sin because God created us to be imperfect creatures. So that is a weak argument at best.

Those that are being ignored for good reason need not respond. It's really disgusting when some people hold MacArthur up on this giant pedestal like he can do no wrong, but as soon as MacArthur preaches something that they are arguing against, they have absolutely nothing relevant to say about his words....so those individuals can simply skip over this thread, thanks.

This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

Those that are being ignored for good reason need not respond. It's really disgusting when some people hold MacArthur up on this giant pedestal like he can do no wrong, but as soon as MacArthur preaches something that they are arguing against, they have absolutely nothing relevant to say about his words....so those individuals can simply skip over this thread, thanks.

...

ah, another conflict in the bible. thx boys!

lol good one sky

nope, another clear conflict. good find mark

ah, another conflict in the bible. thx boys!

what conflict would that be?

My word study on election. This list is not exhaustive.

Whole books addressed to the Elect/Saints:
Romans
2nd Corinthians
Ephesians
Philippians
1st Thessalonians (1:4)
2nd Thessalonians?
1st Peter
2nd Peter
2nd John
Jude

Matthew 22:14
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

John 1:12-13:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 6:38-39
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44 repeated in 65
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 17:1-3
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:6-9
6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

John 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 1:7
To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-13
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:14-18
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 11:4-8
4 And what was God's answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”

2 Corinthians 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:1-14:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

Election study part 2.

Ephesians 2:1-9
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Philippians 1:1-2
1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

1Thessalonians 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

2 Timothy 2:8-10
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1-3
1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness– 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Titus 3:3-7
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

1 Peter 5:10
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

2 Peter 3:1
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. (Supports that 2 Peter is written to the elect)

2 John 1:1-3
1 The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth–and not I only, but also all who know the truth– 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.

Jude 1:1-2
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Isaiah 46:8-11
8“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

Psalms 33:11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Does God know or does he not know who gets saved? If he does not know who gets saved, then he is not God.

If God knows who gets saved AND if all those verses supporting God electing the redeemed actually mean what the text says, then how is salvation available to those who are not elected?

The question requires another look at the verses supporting the idea that salvation is available to all. And those verses MUST re-expain the list I have composed.

Does God know or does he not know who gets saved? If he does not know who gets saved, then he is not God.

If God knows who gets saved AND if all those verses supporting God electing the redeemed actually mean what the text says, then how is salvation available to those who are not elected?

The question requires another look at the verses supporting the idea that salvation is available to all. And those verses MUST re-expain the list I have composed.

Perhaps youre misinterpreting the concept of predestined. It has been said that God knows what our hearts contain before we draw breath, that He knows what choices we all will make before we make them. Imagine, for a minute, that "predestined" means that He knows who will choose to believe in the calling and who will not. And then, imagine that those whom He already knows ahead of time will believe, are then chosen for eternal life. The CHOICE could already have been made based on the fact that He would already know who would follow Him and who would not! Jesus said "Come, follow me", and the only ones who were chosen were people who FOLLOWED.

how about the story of the sinner, the woman in the pharisee's house that wiped the feet of Jesus with her hair? What did Jesus say to her?

LUKE 7

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Did He say "predestination has saved you"??? YOUR FAITH...think hard about this for a minute.


There is another simple fact here--

"Many are called, but few are chosen."

If God already knew who was coming to heaven because those people were the only ones specifically created for that purpose, then WHY would "many" be called? Not one verse that you posted deals with this fact. There would have been no need at all to call "many" if the elect were created for that purpose and everyone else was created already doomed to hell--unless belief was part of the equation, and nothing you have posted deals with this. So, let's stop the tail-chase here--I NEVER indicated that God didnt know who the chosen were, and yet youre still asking that, still harping on it, still pretending I tried to make that point when I never did. Focus on the FACTS here. If what you say is true, then EVERYONE who was called would also have been chosen. If they were not on the list, then they would never have been called, would they? Calling even one person that cannot possibly be chosen is false--is our God false? Didnt think so.

1--"For many are called, but few are chosen"

2--"For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind. "

3--"Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

These are all from the Bible. Not one of them goes against the idea that God predestined the chosen. Not one of them claims that He doesnt know who they are. BUT--they ALL show that God bestowed His grace upon us NOT ONLY in the fact that some are chosen, but ALSO in the fact that we have the choice to BELIEVE and THEREFORE be among the chosen.

Why else would Peter be telling those people in Titus to "make their calling and election sure"?? If man had absolutely nothing to do with this process, HOW COULD A MAN DO ANYTHING TO MAKE HIS ELECTION SURE? But there it is, word for word! And remember, "all scripture is God-breathed....", right?

So, you posted a laundry list of scriptures, none of which refute what I am saying. I post scriptures myself, that prove that grace is bestowed in more ways than just the election itself. Why would the Bible--"all scripture is God-breathed"--say that salvation was offered to ALL MANKIND if it werent true?

Finally, since everyone's so high on MacArthur, why wont anyone talk about him now? He not only believes exactly what I am saying to be true, but he admittedly preaches it himself. Where is all the talk about how long and hard he studied the Bible, for 40 hours a week, for 40 years, now? You guys are all so high on proclaiming him such the expert, but all of a sudden youre so certain that EVEN HE is wrong simply because of your own misinterpretation?

Bottom line--none of the verses you posted state that belief cannot be a part of the equation. Not a single one of those verses says that God created the elect specifically to be elect. The Bible DOES, in fact, say that man was created in His image. It doesnt say that some men were programmed to be elect and others were programmed to never believe. We all are given the choice to turn away from the world or to turn away from Him. It is so clearly stated that "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish". And in each and every case where someone is shown as having been saved, one of two things is ALWAYS said about them--it either says one or both of the following:

1--that they believed, and/or
2--that their faith has saved them.

Do you deny this?

Tell you what--you show me the scriptures that say that someone believed, but was turned away. Show me those. I asked it before, but no one seems to be able to provide any. I see people saying "believing isnt enough...." but there is not one example in the whole Bible where someone believed, and therefore submitted to God, and was turned away in the end. Not ONE. Yet, if that were the case, is there really any doubt that God would have said that?

John 14:2

"In my father's house there are many rooms. If it were not so I would not have told you."

If it were not so, would the Lord have told us anyways, that "whosoever believes shall not perish"?

There are obviously priorities to the will of God, and that's what makes this topic so difficult. On one level "God is not willing that any should perish", and God "has no pleasure in the death of the wicked", yet an obviously higher priority yet is God's own glory, where Romans says that "vessels of wrath" have been predestined to destruction and blinded (i.e. they CANNOT believe), so that God can show forth His power and make His glory known.

Again, people often make up their own god which is only loosely based on the scripture, or based on select portions of it, and that's what jon does.

bx, I'd like to hear your comments on "Are There Two Wills in God?" by John Piper, I found it truly insightful.



"God is not willing that any should perish" If you're referring to 2Peter3:9, you're using it out of context. The verse actually supports election because Peter is speaking to the elect in this book.

I can't commit to reading anything for 18 months. I'm still in the middle of Grudem's Systematic and I've got about 25 more books after this to read.

another excellent conflict of the bible. keep stepping

*sigh*

did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? you totally blew off my request and went back to your uppity stuff about Election, you KNOW FULL WELL I believe in Election....the point was someone could use 2 Peter 3:9 as an argument against it

geez, this forum is such a waste of time anymore, if it's not the parasites and online stalkers, it's the offline stalkers/watchers and God knows what else

I didn't blow off your request, I just can't commit to reading anything. I spent a month reading Tofu's book last year and I'm really behind. Actually, since 2 of us read it, why don't you read Copernicus and the Jews and we'll all have something to discuss.


'uppity stuff about Election', ha. I know you're kidding me. Are you calling me an offline stalker/watcher?

I spent a month reading Tofu's book last year and I'm really behind.

Oh sure, blame the Jews :P

Perhaps youre misinterpreting the concept of predestined. It has been said that God knows what our hearts contain before we draw breath, that He knows what choices we all will make before we make them. Imagine, for a minute, that "predestined" means that He knows who will choose to believe in the calling and who will not. And then, imagine that those whom He already knows ahead of time will believe, are then chosen for eternal life. The CHOICE could already have been made based on the fact that He would already know who would follow Him and who would not! Jesus said "Come, follow me", and the only ones who were chosen were people who FOLLOWED.

Here is the core problem. Everything else you've said flows from your failure to see this point. You place man in the role of soveriegn over God.

God can't be God if he is relying on your choice to make his decision.

Here is the core problem. Everything else you've said flows from your failure to see this point. You place man in the role of soveriegn over God.

God can't be God if he is relying on your choice to make his decision.

Nothing could be further from the truth, bx....I did no such thing and nothing that I said comes anywhere near that concept.

God bestows His mercy and grace upon those whom He chooses to put it upon, in His time and in the manner which He chooses...that makes HIM the sovereign one, dont you think?? Your claim has NOTHING to do with the idea that we must believe in Him to receive what He has offered. I NEVER put man above God--but the fact is that we must believe in Him to complete the equation. If I was saying that man was above God, then I would have claimed that God didnt need to offer His grace first, and that is NOT what I said. Remember, I told you this--salvation requires two things to happen in this order:

1--God's grace is shown--the "many are called"...

2--we must believe in Him--the "few are chosen"...

SCripture backs me on this---nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without God first calling them. Likewise, nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without them then believing. Go look at every example and you will find that this is true.

How does it put man above God to say that when He offers His mercy that we must be willing to receive it? You are misinterpreting what I have posted and youre apparently not getting the idea that I believe and have said that God must offer His mercy FIRST, which puts Him squarely in charge, no? But thats the whole point--salvation is made available to "all mankind" according to chapter and verse. WHO made it available to all mankind...was it MAN? Nope, it was GOD, through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. Therein lies the flaw of your whole argument on this--you made an assumption that was something I not only never claimed, but have repeatedly claimed the opposite of--where did I say that MAN made salvation available to mankind?

I happen to believe with sky with this as the apposing predestination confines God....thus God could not be all powerful...it placed God in a box.

Yes we are all called by his grace, but he leaves the choice of salvation to us.
How many times have we seen the misquoted....
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

One thing about this is that this passage alone alludes to predestination in itself, but of you take it in context with the passage and the parable in whole:

Matthew 22:1-14, NIV

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”


You can see above the invitation was given to many, but they chose not to show....but then the invitation is sent out to EVERYONE. Not just a select few.

This is proof in Gods word alone that predestination is not true, that all that hear are called and invited to join Him, not just a few elect.

If we chose God, why does he then chose us? What's point? Unless he didn't know and his choice is to reward. This fundamentally a works-based view.

The Bible already tells us that no one chooses God.

Do you guys (95 and Sky) think that the Bible doesn't mean what it says when it says that people are not seeking God? Psalm 14:2.

Read a book that compares these theologies.

the higher view of god is death and destruction. ask lot

If we chose God, why does he then chose us? What's point? Unless he didn't know and his choice is to reward. This fundamentally a works-based view.

The Bible already tells us that no one chooses God.

Do you guys (95 and Sky) think that the Bible doesn't mean what it says when it says that people are not seeking God? Psalm 14:2.

Read a book that compares these theologies.


Whats the difference between choosing and seeking God....is that your point?
Apples and oranges.

You fail to make a point here.
I can seek God, but never dhoose to follow Him. See the differance.

As for YZFs point I bring up what McA's point of what is written in the bible is written in the bible, plain and simple. Jesus used the parable above and explicitly say that everyone is invited....not just the elect. Plain and simple.

Carnal/warped minds.....I swear, we all have sin in our lives. Get off your high horse cause you're no better than any of us. In fact, the belief that you are better only puts you in the warped category. :rolleyes:

If we chose God, why does he then chose us? What's point? Unless he didn't know and his choice is to reward. This fundamentally a works-based view.

The Bible already tells us that no one chooses God.

Do you guys (95 and Sky) think that the Bible doesn't mean what it says when it says that people are not seeking God? Psalm 14:2.

Read a book that compares these theologies.

Read a book? I do....dont you? It's called the BIBLE. And nothing I said from that book was incorrectly posted. Why should you look past the Bible--"all scripture is God-breathed"-- in favor of a book written by A FLAWED MAN, and showing that flawed man's own interpretation? Why would you place more value upon that for understanding than upon the Word itself?

Then again, you still are misconstruing what I have said....so you ask this:

If we chose God, why does he then chose us? What's point? Unless he didn't know and his choice is to reward. This fundamentally a works-based view.

So, to answer this question, I will simply repeat what I said in my earlier post--in other words, this was already addressed, and here you are still asking the same question as if it werent.....here goes--are you ready this time?

If I was saying that man was above God, then I would have claimed that God didnt need to offer His grace first, and that is NOT what I said. Remember, I told you this--salvation requires two things to happen in this order:
1--God's grace is shown--the "many are called"...

2--we must believe in Him--the "few are chosen"...

SCripture backs me on this---nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without God first calling them. Likewise, nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without them then believing. Go look at every example and you will find that this is true.

And--

How does it put man above God to say that when He offers His mercy that we must be willing to receive it? You are misinterpreting what I have posted and youre apparently not getting the idea that I believe and have said that God must offer His mercy FIRST, which puts Him squarely in charge, no? But thats the whole point--salvation is made available to "all mankind" according to chapter and verse. WHO made it available to all mankind...was it MAN? Nope, it was GOD, through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus.

And no, it is NOT a "works-based view". It is the truth as written in the scriptures. Works-based means that we achieve it all on our own--but like I keep telling you, the offer of salvation in itself is required FIRST--and that can only come from God, no?

I am still waiting to hear someone discuss the fact that one of the most highly-educated Bible students of our time, John MacArthur, agrees with exactly what I am saying here. Its really ridiculous how you gusy hold him up on such a pedestal all the time--UNTIL NOW. Suddenly, no one has anything to say about his "40 hours for 40 years"?

Finally, you want to ask if I think the Bible "doesnt mean what it says".....do YOU think it doesnt mean what it says when we read:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.


2 Peter 1
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

--in other words, the grace was a gift from God, but THROUGH FAITH in that grace we are saved! NOT by the works of a man, but by GOD'S GRACE combined with FAITH IN THAT GRACE.

John 1
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

To ALL who believe in His name--not to those whom were created with only that possibility.

How about this one? Its also from your list, like some of those above....

Romans 8
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

WHO was predestined?? The ones that He FOREKNEW. The ones that He KNEW would believe even before they drew their first breath. This doesnt support your claim--it supports mine, that those who accept the gift of God's grace are chosen by God. To "foreknow" means to know ahead of time. The ones that God KNEW AHEAD OF TIME would believe through faith were chosen. It's scripture, bx....it isnt like I am making these things up!

Finally, one more example....

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

If the elect were predestined COMPLETELY without man's involvement at all, then why would Jesus have commanded this? Why would ANYONE need to seek out the lost and work to deliver them to Him? An elect cannot fall away, right? So why would anyone need to go out into the world and obey the Great Commission? Wouldnt those who were 'elect' by default find their way to God, since no elect can be lost? Why would the disciples need to "make disciples of all nations"? The goal of a christian is to seek and save the lost--but an elect CANNOT EVER BE LOST.....This contradicts completely with the fact that Jesus said "one must be born again".

the contradiction exists only in your mind: God alone knows who the Elect are...period

John 3

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

hence the difference between God's Electing call, which is known only to God, and the general call of the gospel....MANY people respond to the general call with speculative faith that falls away, or is artificial (or rides a roller coaster), ALOT of people like the idea of Jesus and forgiveness, but that doesn't mean they will be in the Kingdom


Thats the 'true Scotsman' argument, and it wont work here YZF....its a fallacy on logic.


By you attributing to John 3 what the true elect are, then it must be true that only the elect are born of the spirit. But this scripture does nothing of the sort....there is nothing of the 'true elect' even mentioned....more importantly it does say who the called ones are.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"


I suggest that you meditate on that, there real calling of who is with God and in his kingdom.

?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You just got schooled.


your logic perhaps? the same logic that claims "local Flood" and "methodical creation", contrary to many scriptures?


ignored....when you fail you always revert to the personal attacts....and you are comparing apples to oranges.



the term "Elect" is not used in this passage, but it is implied, since those who are truly born again ARE the Elect

Adding again to the bible what isnt there...I suggest that you listen to your OWN POSTS BY McA THEN..."The bible says what it says and means what it means" There is no implied with the elect.....again its the true Scotsman argument....read it, learn it, quit asserting it.

Dude...come on man.....do you actually listen to the crap you post?

i was born again. im going to heaven. sweet

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."[/i]

probably the dumest thing jesus ever said. the people at that time must have been very dumb. I would bet a million doallars that the dumbest mexican of today is smarter than the jesus of yesterday.

^^^ LOL at yzfs house of cards crumbling. Attack wiki! Thats it! nothing on there is true, even though YZF has posted from there. Whats funniy is his attack on wiki is the 'true scotsman' argument. LOL he just :owned: himself.

Notice how again he posts something out of context to attack then he follows up that he is justifying his attack by his second post with scripture. tsk, tsk

No, no , no.....its not going to work this time.

Stay on topic, yzf....lets here a true rebuttal on this, not some have baked, personal, discredit everything, burn the world approach..... LOL, FAIL!

Go ahead and live your lie then....just pointing out the error in your logic, approach, and follow-up.

jesus fucking christ

lol did you see that pic i posted mark?

if I wanted a critique from someone who denies a good part of scripture, I'd ask for it...thanks anyway

again, I bring up flaws in your reasoning, and you go on some wild ass tangent attacking me, instead of the issue.

What a huge baby you've become. You cry consistently about threads being off topic and you pull this crap?

WTF, mark....are you really that much of a jerk? Because I've played nicely, brought up some good points, defended my position in this thread and every single post you attack personally. Can you not see how that makes you into a shit streak?

Jeez, grow up there Mark.

grow up mark. yer ignores and oft topic

again, I bring up flaws in your reasoning, and you go on some wild ass tangent attacking me, instead of the issue.

What a huge baby you've become. You cry consistently about threads being off topic and you pull this crap?

WTF, mark....are you really that much of a jerk? Because I've played nicely, brought up some good points, defended my position in this thread and every single post you attack personally. Can you not see how that makes you into a shit streak?

Jeez, grow up there Mark.

why do you think I put him on ignore? Simple--because he never will grow up. Why even bother posting to the guy anymore? You know you'll never get anywhere with someone so prideful that he would rather sin knowingly than admit his mistake.

and btw, superhack, you claim my position, that the general call is different from God's Electing call, is a "logical fallacy"

well, this guy also has it right http://www.smallings.com/LitEng/Essays/call.html


LOL not once does he state anything about the 'Elect'. Its a fallacy filter that you read everything thru.

His point is that even when hearing Gods words people choose not to be saved, and that some are spoken to where they are saved.

But then Gods steps in to a few get the message a little bit more deeper, greater than that of an epiphany....that isnt an 'Elect' as you place it, its the difference between speaking to the mind and speaking to the heart.....its the beginning of a discerning voice of all things. Go read about when the Holy Spirit descended in Corr.....


But I'm taking Sky's advise and you are going on ignore. I cant stand that you act like spoiled little brat because no one listens to your tripe....so you can take all of that hatred and mean spirited liberal crap live with it.....my advice...go concentrate on what the Lords prayer means.

adios!

(LOL I'll bet you'll even respond to this ....like the fool you are, but I'll NEVER see it!)

five bucks says that he still posts his usual nonsense to me, knowing that I have him ignored....

Read a book? I do....dont you? It's called the BIBLE. And nothing I said from that book was incorrectly posted. Why should you look past the Bible--"all scripture is God-breathed"-- in favor of a book written by A FLAWED MAN, and showing that flawed man's own interpretation? Why would you place more value upon that for understanding than upon the Word itself?

The basis of your point is flawed. God tells us that he gives men gifts to teach. This gift, which you would ignore because you don't believe God or are just ignorant, is typically manifested in books. There is nothing wrong with reading books as long as you don't elevate them over the Bible. You, however have overlooked this verse to justify yourself. But I think you are a hypocrite anyway because I doubt you've studied the Bible without being influenced by some pastor or priest. And I guarantee you son, that that person has a theological perspective he got from some book or is an ignorant cherry picker that you shouldn't listen to anyway.

Do you understand?

The basis of your point is flawed. God tells us that he gives men gifts to teach. This gift, which you would ignore because you don't believe God or are just ignorant, is typically manifested in books. There is nothing wrong with reading books as long as you don't elevate them over the Bible. You, however have overlooked this verse to justify yourself. But I think you are a hypocrite anyway because I doubt you've studied the Bible without being influenced by some pastor or priest. And I guarantee you son, that that person has a theological perspective he got from some book or is an ignorant cherry picker that you shouldn't listen to anyway.

Do you understand?

the only hypocrite I am looking at here is you, "son"....

Thanks for letting me know that the only reason youre ignoring my point about MacArthur agreeing with me is because you simply have no real response to it.

You see, I know full well that books are just fine, just as I know that lessons from those who have studied more/longer are also fine. I am still trying to root out from you exactly why you can quote MacArthur for your own purposes at will, why you consider him credible enough when its on your own terms, but now you refuse to even admit his teaching on the matter? The only one here trying to have it both ways is you, not me. Youre completely content to admit that such teachings are essential, and yet when perhaps one of the most educated people on this topic speaks, you refuse to even acknowledge it because it goes against your own personal belief. You dont have any problem quoting him yourself, or posting a thread about one of his sermons, but only on your terms. OF course, it doesnt matter to you that I have spoken numerous times about such teachers, about studying some of them, about reading some of their books, about listening to their sermons....none of those mere facts mean anything to a guy like you--a guy thats more concerned with thinking he just put someone in his place than he is in getting to the real truth on something like salvation.

Thanks for showing us who the real "cherry-picker" is round these parts--you--with your own behavior. I guess you should include a disclaimer in future posts, so that we can all understand that a mind like MacArthur's is only considered relevant by you when he agrees with what you already believe. TEACHING is not there for the purpose of justifying what you believed before--it is there to TEACH the proper doctrine. Its a shame that youre far too interested in trying to insult me to realize what you've ignored in the process. I made a point about salvation. You tried to refute it. I posted scriptures, and you responded by posting some of your own--not one of which even remotely refuted what I said. I then bring up one of these such teachers that youre now having such a woody over, and you cannot even bring yourself to say one word about what that man--Mr. "40 hours a week for 40 years" as one of you put it--has taught concerning salvation. Check that again--not a single scripture you posted refutes my stated point....OR the fact that MacArthur teaches and believes the same as I do.

Where I am sitting, that doesnt mean you won some great victory.....especially when the best you can do is come off all prideful and try to have it both ways. I pray you find a way out of that wreck, it wont help you.

the only hypocrite I am looking at here is you, "son"....

Thanks for letting me know that the only reason youre ignoring my point about MacArthur agreeing with me is because you simply have no real response to it.

You see, I know full well that books are just fine, just as I know that lessons from those who have studied more/longer are also fine. I am still trying to root out from you exactly why you can quote MacArthur for your own purposes at will, why you consider him credible enough when its on your own terms, but now you refuse to even admit his teaching on the matter? The only one here trying to have it both ways is you, not me. Youre completely content to admit that such teachings are essential, and yet when perhaps one of the most educated people on this topic speaks, you refuse to even acknowledge it because it goes against your own personal belief. You dont have any problem quoting him yourself, or posting a thread about one of his sermons, but only on your terms. OF course, it doesnt matter to you that I have spoken numerous times about such teachers, about studying some of them, about reading some of their books, about listening to their sermons....none of those mere facts mean anything to a guy like you--a guy thats more concerned with thinking he just put someone in his place than he is in getting to the real truth on something like salvation.

Thanks for showing us who the real "cherry-picker" is round these parts--you--with your own behavior. I guess you should include a disclaimer in future posts, so that we can all understand that a mind like MacArthur's is only considered relevant by you when he agrees with what you already believe. TEACHING is not there for the purpose of justifying what you believed before--it is there to TEACH the proper doctrine. Its a shame that youre far too interested in trying to insult me to realize what you've ignored in the process. I made a point about salvation. You tried to refute it. I posted scriptures, and you responded by posting some of your own--not one of which even remotely refuted what I said. I then bring up one of these such teachers that youre now having such a woody over, and you cannot even bring yourself to say one word about what that man--Mr. "40 hours a week for 40 years" as one of you put it--has taught concerning salvation. Check that again--not a single scripture you posted refutes my stated point....OR the fact that MacArthur teaches and believes the same as I do.

Where I am sitting, that doesnt mean you won some great victory.....especially when the best you can do is come off all prideful and try to have it both ways. I pray you find a way out of that wreck, it wont help you.

Let's talk about Macarthur, son. I haven't responded to your points about him because you were, as is your habbit, talking out of your ass. If you do a search on Macarthur and posts by me, you come up with 8.

I posted 1 sermon by him, and in the majority of the rest of the posts I am quoting someone who has mentioned Macarthur. I ignored your rants about Macarthur because I knew your point was incoherent. Do your homework, it's been my point all along.

If you want to bust on Macarthur, talk to YZF.

Now listen here boy and I'll teach you something again. Your salvation exults yourself and God. It gives you something to boast about. You chose God. You practically saved yourself. If it wasn't for you chosing God, you'd be headed to hell. You helped God save you.

My salvation was completely the work of God and he deserves all of the glory for it. It's all about the grace that Jesus came full of, I deserved nothing.

My verses trump your verses.

and dont report to mods
amen

Let's talk about Macarthur, son. I haven't responded to your points about him because you were, as is your habbit, talking out of your ass. If you do a search on Macarthur and posts by me, you come up with 8.

I posted 1 sermon by him, and in the majority of the rest of the posts I am quoting someone who has mentioned Macarthur. I ignored your rants about Macarthur because I knew your point was incoherent. Do your homework, it's been my point all along.

If you want to bust on Macarthur, talk to YZF.

hang on just a sec there, chief--did I claim that you were worshipping him in every post? Nope, sure didnt....did I claim you post about him every day?? Hmmm....nope again....Did I claim that he was your favorite? You guessed it--three strikes.

What I said was that you post his points of view--WHEN THEY SUIT YOUR OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. And then you have nothing to say at all when your beliefs dont match up. That was ALL I said. So, at that point, why even post what he says at all? Simple--because youre too busy being a hypocrite to care about the truth of the matter. So, in the spirit of you once again reading far more into my post than what I even wrote, let's see what you have had to say about, as you call him, "Johnny Mac"....

In THIS (http://www.theforumlounge.com/showpost.php?p=188021&postcount=3) post, you call him a "great teacher". But you cant think he's so great if youre trying to back out on that position now for the sake of trying to be right....can you?

In fact, that post was in the thread you started about his election sermon--and you stood by what he said in that sermon. A funny thing though--in that exact sermon is where he said the things that you dont agree with--right about at the 27 minute mark he says that he not only believes that salvation is made available to ALL MANKIND, but he also preaches it that way because the Bible says it that way. So, which is it, bx?? Did you post that thread with the idea of "take that you haters, um, well, except for the blurb at 27 minutes, ignore that one"??

When you make your own mind up, be sure to let the rest of us know. ONe minute, he's a "great teacher" and you have his commentary, and you've stood up for his teachings in here more than once. And all of a sudden, in a sermon YOU posted as "John MacArthur answers KEY QUESTIONS on election", he teaches the same things I have said here.....but then you try to hide behind "go talk to yzf about this guy, I have barely ever posted about him".....so, you either dont think he's such a great teacher after all, you didnt even listen to his whole sermon that you posted where he says these things, or you simply refuse to face facts because youre more concerned with trying to insult me than you are about what is truth. I leave it to you to decide which one of those is the case, but I think it's pretty clear by itself.

Now listen here boy and I'll teach you something again. Your salvation exults yourself and God. It gives you something to boast about. You chose God. You practically saved yourself. If it wasn't for you chosing God, you'd be headed to hell. You helped God save you.

First off, where do you see me boasting of my salvation? Oops.....wrong again, bx...if you want to discuss someone boasting of their salvation, go visit yzf, thanks.

Second, youre completely wrong in the claim that " I practically saved myself". I already pointed this out to you--the entire glory goes to God because He sent His Son to pay the price for our sin. Simply choosing to believe that HARDLY measures up to God's grace, which offers us that option to begin with. Youre going to have to pay far better attention there, "boy". There is NO glory in the choice to believe--we all can choose to believe thigns every day, but without the grace that allows us a way out, THERE IS NO GLORY DUE FOR OUR ACTION OF BELIEVING.

Once again, youre blowing my posts way out of proportion. Which is a bigger deal to you?

1--God sends Jesus to die for our sins, so that we may be saved from hell, OR--
2--that a man believes something

Now, do YOU finally understand, or are you going to continue to try to put words into my posts that were never there?

My salvation was completely the work of God and he deserves all of the glory for it. It's all about the grace that Jesus came full of, I deserved nothing.

And once again, where did I EVER say that I believed anything different from that? Believing is hardly comparable, as an act, to the grace God has shown....


My verses trump your verses.

WRong again, son.....your verses didnt even address what I have posted. Nothing in your verses changes what I have said. Nothing in your verses changes the fact that the Bible talks about how salvation is offered to ALL MANKIND. You then tried the "predestined" route--and I pointed out scripture that explains the predestined position completely. It isnt my fault or problem that you chose to completely ignore the "foreknew" requirement there--it is yours.

Finally, how can one Bible verse "trump" another? Sorry, son, but that is pure arrogance on your part, and you really need to check that. Either ALL of the Bible is true or it isnt, and the Word itself does say that ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed. Its time for you to face facts and stop trying to use the Word in such a prideful manner, where you actually try to take credit for something by saying "my verses trump your verses". THEY ALL are truth, "boy"---get that point right to start with.

hang on just a sec there, chief--did I claim that you were worshipping him in every post?

Snore.

I think Berkhof is a great teacher too, but it doesn't mean that I agree with everything he says.

The point is this. The world gets the gospel, only those chosen will receive it and obey it. This means that although a person may feel that he has chosen God, it actually happened because God determined it. A salvation (effect) that is in part based on the decision of the receipient (cause), is not biblical.

Snore.

I think Berkhof is a great teacher too, but it doesn't mean that I agree with everything he says.

It isnt even the fact that you dont agree with MacArthur--its the fact that you mae such an effort to not even address the fact that you dont agree. A simple " I dont believe as he does" would have been logical from the start--youve certainly never had a problem expressing such a thing before. The fact that you spent so much time pretending it wasnt even posted points to something other than "I just dont agree with him".


The point is this. The world gets the gospel, only those chosen will receive it and obey it. This means that although a person may feel that he has chosen God, it actually happened because God determined it. A salvation (effect) that is in part based on the decision of the receipient (cause), is not biblical.

And I suppose you have scripture that backs this up? Because there isnt one word you have posted yet from the Bible that shows this. And, before you try to use the same examples again, let's take a look at what some of them actually mean instead of the version you have (and no doubt will again) claim to be true.

1--Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

The answer there is twofold--first, the reason why no one can boast is because God's grace had to come first. Without God's grace providing a way to escape hell, you could believe anything you wanted to, but it still wouldnt change your destination. THAT is the gift from God that this verse speaks of. Second, this is the part that you keep trying to skip over--"through faith". In Luke 7, Jesus tells the woman that her faith has saved her. The fact that "many are called but few are chosen" all by itself proves that faith is the other part of the puzzle--otherwise, all who are called would also be chosen!

Also, "works" and "belief" are not the same thing at all. "works" would be the whole "I am a good person, I help old ladies cross the street and give to the poor, so I am going to heaven" concept. That isnt true belief in God--it is doing deeds with the thought that those deeds will earn you a spot in Heaven. That isnt belief. This is further echoed in the following scripture:

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Be very careful on this--read that passage and tell me where it says "We BELIEVED IN YOU". It doesnt--this is proof that the DEEDS they did are alone not sufficient. In fact, I challenged you to show me even a single example in the Bible of a person who truly believed, yet was turned away. Of course, there isnt one. In that verse, the people who will be turned away will talk all about what they DID, and nothing about their BELIEF. And thats where Jesus will turn them away. The Bible is very clear that He will NOT turn away one who is true to Him--

Job 8

"Lo, God will not reject a man of integrity, Nor will He support the evildoers.




2--Matthew 22

For many are invited, but few are chosen

If the answer lied 100% solely in God's grace, then why would people be invited that wouldnt then be chosen? Think about the simple mechanics, if you will, behind this concept. Let's say that you are invited to a party. Does the invitation itself guarantee that you are going? Nope--you then have to answer the invitation accordingly, no? If God made this decision based solely on how He created a person whether or not they would be chosen, then there would have been no need to invite others that He created not to be chosen. This shows that chosen vs. not chosen was not a part of the specific creation of a specific person--if a man was created for the purpose of entering heaven, then dont you think God would know enough not to waste His time and efforts with invitations that could never possibly be used?

3--Romans 8

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

You posted this one yourself, I believe. You skipped completely over the "foreknew" part--and that is not how to interpret the Bible, by skipping over some of God's own words. Foreknew means that before we make a chocie, God knows what that choice will be. It doesnt mean that we were created specifically to go to heaven while someone else was created specifically to go to hell. Again, if God created us this way, there would have been no reason whatsoever to invite many that could not come no matter what. The whole predestined idea relies FIRST on that foreknowledge, according to this scripture, and youre ingoring that very important part for whatever reason. Remember, "If it were not true I would not have told you so...", right? Hey, not my words, but from the Word.

This goes one step further, in Romans 11--

2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

That is quite an important part of the puzzle for you to be overlooking, bx....

4--John 4

"Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me"

You posted this one too--but you forgot to address the next part of what Jesus was saying, and that is found in John 6:

No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

So, in the end, while one must go to Jesus to get to the Father, Jesus only chooses what His Father has willed. That ties in with "foreknew" completely.

Also, you have said that the whole world is not invited--that salvation is not offered to all. These verses show very clearly that you are mistaken:

Colossians 1:23

23[And this He will do] provided that you continue to [a]stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [b][as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven, and of which [Gospel] I, Paul, became a minister.

Psalm 19:4

4Yet their voice [in evidence] goes out through all the earth, their sayings to the end of the world. Of the heavens has God made a tent for the sun,

Mark 16:14-16

14Afterward He appeared to the Eleven [apostles themselves] as they reclined at table; and He reproved and reproached them for their unbelief (their lack of faith) and their hardness of heart, because they had refused to believe those who had seen Him and looked at Him attentively after He had risen [[d]from death].

15And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole [e]human race].

16He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [[f]from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned.

Not to mention the already-posted "to all mankind" verse from before....

Once more, show me a verse that goes against what I am saying. Show me the Word proving this wrong. Because not one thing you have posted up to this point refutes even a single point I am making.

Tell you what--we can boil this down to two questions right now, real simply.

1--Do you believe that the Bible is the true Word of God, as in "all scripture is God-breathed" and that it is all truth?

2--Do you think that God would speak something that wasnt truth?

Your answers, combined with one scripture, will show that man plays a role. Let me know your answers, and I will point out the verse.

hmmm.....so lemme get this straight.....

This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

wow, that answers everything perfectly!!!

In other words, for the really slow people here among us, ignore means ignore. When I said that those on ignore need not respond to me, I meant it. I put yzf on ignore because he always has some excuse why he's "always right". I dont rely on excuses--and no real christian would either. I have posted scripture after scripture, because that is where the only truth is.

Now, those of you that matter in this discussion(read, not yzf), feel free to comment. I thought I made that abundantly clear on the first page. Then again, the "M1 tank" isnt known for comprehending the obvious anyways...

wow, some people are truly just plain clueless.....I pray that someone puts yzf back in his straight-jacket soon...

I'm tired of the encyclopedic responses. The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the faith, not the grace. If grace is the gift, it's redundant and the verse looses meaning. Look at the verse again.

I'm tired of the encyclopedic responses. The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the faith, not the grace. If grace is the gift, it's redundant and the verse looses meaning. Look at the verse again.

um, no.....

Try looking a little further, bx, like in Ephesians 3, for example....

7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.

Think about this for a minute--God's grace was already present and given to Saul BEFORE he pronounced his faith. He didnt believe UNTIL he got his sight back....but even before that moment, God's GRACE was already in effect, which is how Ananias was even commanded to go to him in the house of Judas on straight street.

The same book youre quoting refers to the GRACE as the gift from God. Dont doubt it because I am the one who posted it--consider where I got it from.

um, no.....

Try looking a little further, bx, like in Ephesians 3, for example....



Think about this for a minute--God's grace was already present and given to Saul BEFORE he pronounced his faith. He didnt believe UNTIL he got his sight back....but even before that moment, God's GRACE was already in effect, which is how Ananias was even commanded to go to him in the house of Judas on straight street.

The same book youre quoting refers to the GRACE as the gift from God. Dont doubt it because I am the one who posted it--consider where I got it from.

I'm finished with you on this. YZF is right, there's is no point. Grace is a gift, faith is a gift. Verse 8's gift is faith. Verse 9's gift is grace. The context of verse 8 is doctrinally focused on how salvation works. Verse 9 includes the words grace and gift and the focus is on something completely different. Move along.

I'm finished with you on this. YZF is right, there's is no point. Grace is a gift, faith is a gift. Verse 8's gift is faith. Verse 9's gift is grace. The context of verse 8 is doctrinally focused on how salvation works. Verse 9 includes the words grace and gift and the focus is on something completely different. Move along.

That is incorrect, bx....read it again....

Paul very clearly says that he became a servant of the Gospel--which is what it means to be saved--BY THE GIFT OF GOD'S GRACE. That gift, in that verse, is DIRECTLY being given as the reason why he was saved. ISNT THAT HOW SALVATION WORKS, in other words? Paul just told you that its how HIS salvation came about. Simply claiming that its about something else isnt going to cut it, bx.....I expected better from you, honestly. Youre one of the more intelligent people here, I didnt expect some lame false generalization like that.

That is incorrect, bx....read it again....

Paul very clearly says that he became a servant of the Gospel--which is what it means to be saved--BY THE GIFT OF GOD'S GRACE. That gift, in that verse, is DIRECTLY being given as the reason why he was saved. ISNT THAT HOW SALVATION WORKS, in other words? Paul just told you that its how HIS salvation came about. Simply claiming that its about something else isnt going to cut it, bx.....I expected better from you, honestly. Youre one of the more intelligent people here, I didnt expect some lame false generalization like that.

Well since you're being nice and all that, I am obliged to continue. I see what you are saying and I appreciate you looking forward, however, I would submit that in 3:7 Paul's talking about grace not in regards to the salvific process but in the light of how he got the job of revealing the mystery in the gospel, that the gentiles would be fellow heirs. It would be analagous to saying you drove to New York. You didn't actually drive the wheels yourself, you worked the gas pedal. Maybe you rode in the back seat.

Well since you're being nice and all that, I am obliged to continue. I see what you are saying and I appreciate you looking forward, however, I would submit that in 3:7 Paul's talking about grace not in regards to the salvific process but in the light of how he got the job of revealing the mystery in the gospel, that the gentiles would be fellow heirs. It would be analagous to saying you drove to New York. You didn't actually drive the wheels yourself, you worked the gas pedal. Maybe you rode in the back seat.

yes, but youre forgetting the entire premise behind why Saul was saved in the first place. In this particular case at least, "how he got the job" WAS how he became saved. The same is true of all of us--was not the great commission commanded of ALL the faithful?

Anyways, back to Paul--

Acts 9

15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Arent we ALL called to do the same? Arent we ALL commanded to bring the Gospel to the lost in the same manner? This is no different.

Paul was talking about how he was granted salvation--the salvation and the calling to serve are not separable, but one and the same. Who will be chosen, according to the Word itself, but not have to live for Christ? Who among the faithful did Jesus exempt from the Great Commission? you see where I am going with this?


It would be analagous to saying you drove to New York. You didn't actually drive the wheels yourself, you worked the gas pedal. Maybe you rode in the back seat.

But even in your analogy, you still have to make the choice to get in the car, no? Even if youre only sitting in the back seat, you had to choose to get in that car and end up wherever it did. God is no different--we have to choose to trust Him over our own thought process. That in no way lessens His grace that we might be saved from eternal pain, but it is necessary. Once again, do you agree with these two statements?

1--the entire Bible is the true word of God, being that "all scripture is God-breathed".

2--God is not wrong, does not lie, does not err, does not tell us things that arent true.

Do you agree with those?

that was the nicest post like 'ever' from sky

2 + 2 = cat

demons? you define the word delusional

of course you don't believe in anything supernatural, you're an ignorant and insignificant spec of dust in the canvas of etenity

these words in itself has value. Therefore, if life deems us only worthy to be called an ignorant spec in yadda yadda yadda blah blah?, then it shall be.

Once again, do you agree with these two statements?

1--the entire Bible is the true word of God, being that "all scripture is God-breathed".

2--God is not wrong, does not lie, does not err, does not tell us things that arent true.

Do you agree with those?

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment. Yes I agree with these points.

3 --- simplistic minds make wrong conclusions about the scripture, and cherry pick verses in an attempt to prove an erroneous standpoint.

The doctrine of Elction is a simple, yet, at the same time, complex issue.

3 --- simplistic minds make wrong conclusions about the scripture, and cherry pick verses in an attempt to prove an erroneous standpoint.

The doctrine of Elction is a simple, yet, at the same time, complex issue.

It really helps to read a few Systematics on the topic. It honors God to read books about theology and it is consistent with scripture to do so.

I agree, but there really is no substitute for studying the Word for yourself first, so that you can discern whether the words written by men (even if they may be Godly men) are indeed accurate and true.

I enjoyed Piper's "Are There Two Wills in God?" so much because it reinforced what I had already been thinking: that there is a complex series of priorities to the Will of God, culminating with His ultimate glory. I got more out of his excellent treatise because I came to it with a thorough knowledge of the passages he presented.

Jonnie does the exact opposite: his knowledge of the scripture is abysmal. So he cherry picks what lines up with his pre-conceived ideas, not with what the whole counsel of God says, then brow beats anyone who disagrees in an endless do-loop of insanity.

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment. Yes I agree with these points.

OK....so let's start with that...

1--you agree that the Bible is 100% the true word of God.

2--you agree that God doesnt lie.






3--the Bible states that salvation is offered to "all mankind". The Bible states that God "foreknew those whom He predestined", not that He made all the choices for us, but that He FOREKNEW what WE would choose. The Bible shows Paul telling fellow Christians to "make their election sure"--something that could not possibly have any meaning if free will was not involved.


If 1 and 2 are truth, then by default the statements in 3 must also be truth. There's no getting around that......at least, no honest way of getting around it.

IJonnie does the exact opposite: his knowledge of the scripture is abysmal. So he cherry picks what lines up with his pre-conceived ideas, not with what the whole counsel of God says, then brow beats anyone who disagrees in an endless do-loop of insanity.

bx, don't waste your time with this guy!

of course, the "honesty" claptrap....jon you are a MORON

wow, what a shocker.....

some people, even in their 40's, cannot understand what it means when they are being ignored.

Then again, when that same "grown man" fires off several emails to cry about being banned from a forum that he has repeatedly told us all he "couldnt care less about", I dont tend to expect much in the way of intelligence from that person anyways.

stop whining, jonnie....you're consistently wrong, and you're wrong on this topic as well

3--the Bible states that salvation is offered to "all mankind".

This statement is not consistent with the reality that we live in unless every person on the planet is given the gospel message at least once in their lifetime. 2Peter does not support this when looked at in context. I believe the only other verse used to support it is from Timothy.

The Bible states that God "foreknew those whom He predestined", not that He made all the choices for us, but that He FOREKNEW what WE would choose.

As I have said before, this raises human sovereignty over God. God chose you because you chose him first. So your choice becomes more important then God's. Also, it suggests that at some point God had to go and investigate your life to see what you would do, as though he did not know. He wasn't sure so he waited until he could observe what you would do and then went back to the beginning to predestine you. Omniscience goes out the window, it cannot be explained away.


The Bible shows Paul telling fellow Christians to "make their election sure"--something that could not possibly have any meaning if free will was not involved. I go back to context here. Also, it does not negate God electing people, the point is to check one's self, which is not indicating that one generates his own election. Where's the instruction to get saved again? On top of all of this, really please think about it and you will cross over to me an YZF's side. If you can lose your salvation, then your baptism must also become invalid. Where are the instructions to get re-baptized? They do not exist.

This statement is not consistent with the reality that we live in unless every person on the planet is given the gospel message at least once in their lifetime. 2Peter does not support this when looked at in context. I believe the only other verse used to support it is from Timothy.

It isnt about "the reality we live in". Its about the Bible. And the Bible states clear as day that salvation is made available to all mankind. I took nothing out of context, and since there is only one "all mankind" in existence, you can hardly claim I was misrepresenting the context. "All mankind" does not leave room for interpretation--it is quite clear all by itself, no?



As I have said before, this raises human sovereignty over God. God chose you because you chose him first. So your choice becomes more important then God's. Also, it suggests that at some point God had to go and investigate your life to see what you would do, as though he did not know. He wasn't sure so he waited until he could observe what you would do and then went back to the beginning to predestine you. Omniscience goes out the window, it cannot be explained away.

I already addressed that and once again you are completely misinterpreting what I have said. My point of view NEVER placed man above God, as already explained. Why do you insist on not paying attention to the explanations you receive in response to what you say? There's no valid point in continuing to argue something once I prove that youre barking up the wrong tree about my meaning. You claim it takes God's choice and lessens it. You claim it makes man's choice first. I already showed you how God's Grace HAD to come first, because without it we would never have been offered ANYTHING other than death. Why ignore that? I thought you wanted to have a real discussion about this.....was I wrong on that?


I go back to context here.

Thats fine, but I have not taken anything out of its context in the first place, so go back to context all you like. It still doesnt change the fact of what the Bible says.

Also, it does not negate God electing people, the point is to check one's self, which is not indicating that one generates his own election.

Youre still assuming that I claimed that a man CAN generate his own election. Which, for the record, I have never once said. So why are you still making this incorrect assumption?

Where's the instruction to get saved again?

What? What are you talking about, "get saved again"? When did I ever say that you could be saved more than once? Oh, wait, I didnt....this is yet one more incorrect assumption on your part.


On top of all of this, really please think about it and you will cross over to me an YZF's side.

Thats rather funny....for one thing, YZF doesnt even know what "side" he is on. One minute, he treats MacArthur like a God on earth....and the next, he cannot even acknowledge the fact that MacArthur teaches exactly what I am saying here. For another thing, YZF has changed his mind so many times on this very topic it isnt funny....Not exactly what you'd expect from the guy who claims he's "always right".....


If you can lose your salvation, then your baptism must also become invalid. Where are the instructions to get re-baptized? They do not exist.

I didnt say you can lose your salvation, chief. I merely showed you what scripture said. And what I posted doesnt in any way say that you can lose salvation.

I maintain what I have been telling you all along--that two things must happen in order for one to be saved.

1--God, by His grace, made salvation available--this means that man's choice is NEVER first, I NEVER claimed it was first, and I NEVER claimed that God's grace didnt come first. His grace is without doubt the larger part of the puzzle and I have even said that before....can ya hear me now? Like I already told you, man could believe whatever he wanted to--but without the grace of God making this available to us, nothing would happen. THAT is why God's position as sovereign to us NEVER CHANGES under the beliefs I am telling you. Do me a favor and stop pretending I said otherwise already.

2--a man must believe and surrender himself to Jesus, the Lord and Savior.

Instructions to be re=baptized? Instructions to be saved again? Make me think of the verses in Hebrews 6:

1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

this thread utterly fails...the OP has zero spiritual discernment

Instructions to be re=baptized? Instructions to be saved again? Make me think of the verses in Hebrews 6:

1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Which would be the reason why I never voiced such a sentiment in here...because I dont believe in the need to be "saved again".

Then again, the thick-headed among us still deny what I am saying.....even when the preachers they listen to the most agree with me. It's already been shown that MacArthur teaches what I am saying....here's where none other than Billy Graham agrees with me as well:

http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_Article.asp?ArticleID=421

Remember when I said that two things had to happen, in order, for salvation to be found? Here's what Billy Graham says on the matter:

First, all are sinners and stand under the judgment of God. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23, NIV). We might believe that we are good enough to win God's favor or that we can perform certain religious acts to counterbalance our bad deeds. But the Bible states that we are all condemned, for "there is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10, NIV).

Second, we need to understand what Christ has done to make our salvation possible. God loves us, and Christ came to make forgiveness and salvation possible. What did He do? He died on the cross as the complete sacrifice for our sins. He took upon Himself the judgment that we deserve.

Third, we need to respond to God's work. God in His grace offers us the gift of eternal life. But like any gift, it becomes ours only when we take it.

Remember when I said that salvation was offered to ALL mankind? Here is Billy Graham's statement of faith from his website:

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association believes:

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
• In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
• That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross. • That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.
• In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.
• We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.
• In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

Billy Graham believes, and just told you, that Jesus took on ALL OUR SINS, not only the sins of a select few. He also just told you that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE need to come to the knowledge of Christ--which couldnt possibly be the case if it wasnt made available to all men in the first place.

http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_Article.asp?ArticleID=210

Pillar #1
God Cannot Lie!
First, assurance is based on the absolute trustworthiness of Scripture. Throughout the New Testament, we read God's promises to save all who will believe upon His Son. The Bible says, "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."(1) This is a promise! All who have committed their lives to Jesus Christ may have the firm confidence of salvation based upon the infallibility of God's Word.

Jesus said, "The one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."(2) If you come to Jesus with genuine repentance and faith, He promises that He will save you. We can know Jesus has received us because, quite simply, He said so! When the Bible speaks, God speaks. And what God said, He will surely do. He will save all who call upon Jesus Christ. You have His word on it.

NOT "a select few of those who believe". NOT "only this group over here, because He likes their music better....". Billy Graham is telling you that ALL who call upon the Lord with a genuine heart WILL BE SAVED. At any other time, some of you tout Graham like he's practically the second coming all by himself.....five bucks says you will do your level best to discredit this evidence that you are simply wrong about salvation. Either that or you wont even discuss it, exactly the same as what took place with MacArthur's words.

That's two of the most well-known, the most educated, the most trusted speakers on the Lord in this country, that you guys yourselves have used many times to bolster your own arguments. Now, are they lying now, simply because you think you are "always right"?

No, jonnie, John MacArthur does NOT agree with your humanistic viewpoint, because MacArthur believes solely in Divine Election ("God is always previous"), while you have consistently (for several years now), stated that human free will plays a role in salvation. Again, this thread fails.

Billy Graham is telling you that ALL who call upon the Lord with a genuine heart WILL BE SAVED.

And, once again, "no one can come to Me unless the Father draws him". Stop cherry picking! You must consider the whole counsel of God on this issue, and you have proven to be inept.

Again, the best discussion of this topic I've ever read. It's far more complex than one liners frrom internet hacks, and cannot be fully understood by anyone, least of all those outside the faith.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW02.htm

Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical?

John MacArthur

Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church, the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The question goes like this: Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, Does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?

Where’s the evidence?

This question of choice is called “election” because of the Greek word for those who are chosen—the Bible calls them eklektos. There are many such uses in the Bible (cf. Col. 3:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Tit. 1:1; 2 John 1), but one of my favorites is in Romans 8:33: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?” The answer is, “no one,” but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?

One passage that is critical to the discussion is in the opening chapter of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. Immediately after his customary greeting, Paul launches in Ephesians 1:3-14 with a great song of praise. It’s only one sentence—but, with 200 words in the Greek, it may be the longest single sentence in religious literature.

Paul touches on all the great biblical themes in that hyper-complex sentence—sanctification, adoption, redemption, and glorification—and all of them rest on one foundational doctrine, the doctrine of election. The most superlative spiritual blessings stand on Ephesians 1:4—“He chose us [elected us] in Him before the foundation of the world.”

So the doctrine of election is biblical, but what does that passage really teach? I want to help you get a better grasp of that by pointing out what Paul teaches about election. If you are a believer, you can equip yourself for your next conversation on this topic. But more important, as one of His elect you can rejoice in the astonishing kindness God showed you before the world began.

What does it mean?

Paul’s song is essentially his reflection on the amazing truth that God “blessed us with every spiritual blessing … in Christ” (v. 3). And how did He bless us? “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).

God didn’t draw straws; He didn’t look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for “chose” indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.

Jesus said to His disciples, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). And in the same Gospel, John wrote, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (1:12-13, italics mine). And Paul said, “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13).

Those statements defining God’s sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy, as if God’s election means sinners don’t make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).

Admittedly the two concepts don’t seem to go together. However, both are true separately, and we must accept them both by faith. You may not understand it, but rest assured—it’s fully reconciled in the mind of God.

You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God’s election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).

Think about it—if your salvation depends on you, then praise to God is ridiculous. But, in truth, your praise to God is completely appropriate, because in forming the Body before the world began, He chose you by His sovereign decree apart from any of your works. The doctrine of election demonstrates God being God, exercising divine prerogatives. For that we must praise Him.

“But that’s not fair!”

Some are shocked to find that God didn’t choose everyone to salvation. Jesus said, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39, italics mine). God the Father chose certain individuals to form a Body as a gift to Jesus Christ. Every believer is part of that love gift to Christ—a gift of the Father’s love to His Son.

To those who say that is unjust, Paul answers: “What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion’” (Rom. 9:14-15).

So why does God still find fault in unrepentant sinners when He didn’t choose them? Doesn’t this deny human responsibility? Is it fair for God to still hold them accountable?

Paul answers all such questions with a rebuke—“who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?” (v. 20). Does the clay jump up and ask the potter why it looks the way it does? Not at all.

Some believe that is terribly cold and calculating. But that is only one side of God’s sovereign election. Paul continues in the next chapter by saying, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved … for ‘whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved’” (10:9, 13).

How these two sides of God’s truth—His sovereignty in choosing us (Rom. 9) and our responsibility to confess and believe (Rom. 10)—reconcile is impossible for us to understand fully. But Scripture declares both perspectives of salvation to be true (John 1:12-13). It’s our duty to acknowledge both and joyfully accept them by faith.

This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

Now, if someone worth paying attention to wishes to discuss, I would be happy to do so.

Your lame duck points have been trounced by me so many times now all you can do is a) the usual do-loop, b) tangential rabbit trails, or c) avoidance. Hopefully, bx. is done with your circus act. Once again, jonnie, you're wrong, but in your pride, you can't admit it.

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lol good one sky

wow what a thread Lol I am lost its too much to read but guessing what its about I would say that of course salvation is available to all why the hell would Jesus die on the cross for just a few peeps. And we are given a choice because he wants a relationship with us not control over us even though he could but he is love not a dictator :D ok over and out just my opinion and this is too heavy a topic for me I aint good at explaining my feelings Lol. ;)

naw, jesus died because he thought he was god. Must had sucked to be in all that pain and realized he couldnt stop it heh...


some god