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Join in on this Discussion and see the pictures. Click here-> : A very good read on Ron Paul.


Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 08:48 PM
For my fellow Libertarians:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1724358,00.html

There used to be an organization for people who believed in a truly limited government — limited taxes, limited spending, limited interference in individual lives and limited intervention in foreign affairs. That organization was known as the Republican Party. But the only one of those beliefs that still motivates the G.O.P. establishment is limited taxes. In 2008, people who still hold all of them joined the Ron Paul Revolution.

But now the revolution is ebbing. Congressman Paul's new campaign finance report shows that he's raised nearly $35 million, including more than any other Republican candidate in the fourth quarter of 2007, and he's inspired remarkable passion among the kind of diehards who hold up campaign signs on highway overpasses and post irate comments on obscure blogs. But the presidency isn't decided on YouTube or Technorati. Paul didn't win any Republican primaries, and he recently conceded that "victory in the conventional sense is not available."

Of course, nothing in Paul's world is ever done in the conventional sense, so he has refused to drop out of the race and endorse the presumptive G.O.P. nominee, Senator John McCain. Instead he argues that all Republicans should have "the right to vote for someone that stands for traditional Republican principles." And he's got a point.

The real significance of the Paul campaign is not the ubiquitous bumper stickers and lawn signs or the online fund-raising records ($6 million in one day, plus another $4 million, hilariously, on Guy Fawkes Day) but the mirror Paul held up to the modern Republican Party. When his fellow candidates denounced big government, Paul was there to remind them that President Bush and the G.O.P. Congress had shattered spending records and exploded the deficit. When they hailed freedom, Paul asked why they all supported the Patriot Act and other expansions of executive power. And when they called themselves conservatives, Paul asked what was so conservative about sending thousands of young Americans to try to transform the Middle East.

In some ways, Paul is a throwback to the frugal and isolationist wing of the old Republican Party, the fuddy-duddy GOP of Robert Taft and Calvin Coolidge. His fiscal policies evoke the idealistic Republican revolutionaries who seized control of Congress in 1994; he wants to abolish the IRS, the Departments of Homeland Security, Education and Energy, and most of the federal government. He refuses to vote for unbalanced budgets, and he has opposed spending taxpayer dollars on Congressional Medals of Honor, even for Rosa Parks or Pope John Paul II. Typically, his campaign has reported no debts, and still has more than $5 million in the bank. Meanwhile, Paul's foreign policies evoke candidate George W. Bush's call for a "humbler foreign policy" in 2000, although Paul goes much further; not only did he oppose U.S. involvement in Iraq, Kosovo and the war on drugs, he opposes U.S. involvement in the United Nations and NATO.

Under Bush's leadership, of course, the Republican Party has been anything but frugal and anything but isolationist. The congressional Republican revolutionaries seemed to lose their zeal for shrinking the federal government once they controlled it, which is one reason voters expelled them from power in 2006. And these days, it's usually Democrats who call for a humbler foreign policy. Paul's leave-us-alone libertarianism hasn't fit in with a party anxious to read our e-mail, improve our values, assert American power abroad and subsidize friendly industries at home. The party's recent mix of "national greatness" neoconservatives, evangelical theoconservatives and K Street careerists has had many goals, but leaving people alone hasn't been one of them. That's why Paul was the one getting booed at G.O.P. debates. And that's one reason why Paul's fervent followers were banned from the activist Republican website RedState.

In fairness, though, another reason RedState's directors got tired of the Paulistas was that so many of them seemed — what's the polite word? — nuts. Paul's supporters aren't all black-helicopter paranoiacs, but the black-helicopter paranoiacs sure do support Ron Paul. The controversy over a few racist articles in his old newsletters was probably overblown; there's no evidence that Paul himself was ever a racist. But he is an extremist — partly in the Barry Goldwater extremism-in-defense-of-liberty-is-no-vice sense of the word, but also in the wacky let's-relitigate-the-currency-debates-of-the-1820s sense of the word. The late William F. Buckley wanted conservatives to stand athwart history yelling stop; Paul seems to want to slam history into reverse. The guy genuinely wants to abolish the Federal Reserve and start circulating gold again.

Still, even if you set aside Paul's kookier ideas, there just doesn't seem to be a road to the White House for any candidate who opposes the war in Iraq as well as higher taxes, the war on drugs as well as higher spending, restrictions on privacy as well as restrictions on guns. That's a real "freedom agenda," a true assault on big government, and while it clearly spoke to some angry dudes with high-speed web connections and time on their hands, it's just as clearly not where America stands today. Paul didn't have a lot of company on the House floor when he rose recently to complain about government overreach in the investigation of the disgraced former New York governor Eliot Spitzer, who resigned after revelations that he had been a customer of a high-end prostitution ring.

But even if Paul's ideological purity is never going to get him to the White House, it does help illuminate the impurities — and sometimes the hypocrisies — of today's Republicans, just as Ralph Nader can do for the Democrats. The G.O.P. candidates all claimed to defend taxpayers, but Paul was the only one who refused to accept a taxpayer-funded pension or taxpayer-funded junkets. The candidates all talked about shrinking big government, but Paul was the only one who included the Pentagon and NSA wiretaps and petroleum subsidies in his definition. Bush's approval ratings have been abysmal for years, but Paul was the only Republican who really campaigned for change.

And in doing so Paul illustrated what was so striking about the Republican race. The leading candidates had all strayed from Bush and current orthodoxy in the past — Rudy Giuliani on abortion and gay rights, John McCain on tax cuts, torture, health care and campaign finance, Mitt Romney on just about everything. But while Paul was getting attacked every time he called for a new direction, the rest spent the primaries minimizing and renouncing their previous departures, implicitly promising four more years of Bushism. McCain is lucky he has some time to craft a new message, because that's not where America stands today, either.

So next time Mark calls me a Liberal I shall refer him to this thread. I really hope Ron Paul runs under the Libertarian Party. I'll vote for the guy. Barack and Hillary can talk change all they want, but RON PAUL IS CHANGE!

Alex-7
03-26-2008, 08:49 PM
Ima big ron paul fan.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 08:52 PM
I was very pissed that he didn't win one single primary. There is a shitload of banners and signs and such up for him in my area including a lot of bumper stickers. I figured that New Hampshire having very Libertarian policies would give him a good shot at winning the primary but no. I guess even in his home state of Texas outside of his district he is considered pretty radical.

Alex-7
03-26-2008, 08:57 PM
He'll never win shit. But that wont stop me from voting for him...


If people quit buying into this "don't throw you're vote away" bullshit and voted for what they believed in there might be a chance for a libertarian candidate within the next twenty years.

I swear most of the idiots in this country just wanna vote for the guy that ends up winning.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:00 PM
Or someone who they consider to at least have a legitimate shot of winning. I say fuck it though. I don't really want Obama as president. I question his position on Affirmative Action.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:15 PM
So why should we be the World Police? Tell me why. You can't come up with a decent answer.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:32 PM
we have an interest in protecting Israel against radical threats (Islamic and otherwise), which lead to their hatred of us...it's a war that existed many centuries before we got involved, we're just the latest players in the struggle

That's your fucking opinion based on the bible. Give me hard fucking facts. I don't give a fuck about Israel. Next.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:34 PM
Explain how it is a fact. We help out Israel and have the Middle East hate us. We stay out of Israel's fucking affairs and why would anybody have reason to hate us?

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:39 PM
It's seriously not even worth arguing with you.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:46 PM
You think because quote un fucking quote neutrality while the united states of fucking america was selling ships to england during world war two and then japan got pissed off at us at this fact and that we cut back trade with them that the quote un fucking quote neutrality caused it? You are seriously a fucking idiot. It's not about logic. It's about not thinking I am right with every fucking thing I say and then spuring 14 k posts of bullshit to prove it. I'm hoping for a ban for you pretty soon already dipshit.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 09:55 PM
Come back when you don't claim we must help israel due to the bible you fucking idiot. Come back when you have hard evidence about why we must be the world police. This thread was started on behalf of Ron Paul and his policies. You straying off topic in your own stupid fucking rants is a punishable offense.

Vert8813B
03-26-2008, 10:06 PM
are you implying anyone in power in the U.S. favors our alliance with Israel because of the Bible?? that's a baseless and absurd assumption

Did I ever say that? I was stating you. Are you in power over anything other than your own stupidity?



I always know I'm dealing with a moron when I hear this parroted nonsense

I always know I am dealing with a fucking idiot who reads fiction. :D

Someone ban me so I don't have to put up with this shit anymore. I'm sick and tired of this fucking idiot jacking every single fucking thread with his bullshit, getting booted, then sucking dick to come back. Somebody shoot me a message when he gets the boot for good.

Ark2
03-26-2008, 10:20 PM
This Vert meltdown is brought to you by yzf

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 06:08 AM
stop whining moron, you chose to engage me in debate, got your ass kicked, and now you're crying about it

what a punk

It's not even a fucking debate when one side bases their bullshit reasoning on fiction and makes no reasonable excuse why we should be involved in foreign affairs. We should help Israel. Explain your fucking reasoning for the 5th time. Debating is actually telling WHY we should be there.

I have already stated WHY we SHOULDN'T be there. We support Israel, we piss off the Middle East. We create groups that say Death to America and Death to Israel. In other words, our policy of what you appear to consider "neutrality" in WWII (even though we WERE selling U.K. ships and trading raw materials with them and basically snubbing our nose to the Empire of Japan. I also blame "neutrality" for WWII. I just know the facts) and it would appear that if anything is going to bring us into a WWIII, it is our support of Israel and NOT being Neutral.

Don't give me this crap about if Israel falls to Palestine then the world is going to end and all this bullshit. I don't give a shit about fiction except Frank Herbert.

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:01 AM
the only "reasoning on fiction" has it's origin in your whimsical thinking, apparently influenced by Ron Paul's wacky foreign policy gyrations

national security might just be a good place to start, in case you've been living in a hole in the ground all your life, the express stated aim of Islam is world domination

wake up...

You studied Islam? Interesting. And all Muslims are still Arabic right? I'm not saying we shouldn't fight at all, but we have enough domestic problems and I say should the problem arise where somebody wants to get tough with us, we fuck them up. I'm saying we shouldn't go out of our way to encourage people to hate us. Have you ever been to Europe Mark? Anti-Americanism is huge there. Even if you go to French Canada it can be seen. I see your stance and respect it, I whole-heartedly disagree with it though.

Ark2
03-27-2008, 11:06 AM
You studied Islam? Interesting. And all Muslims are still Arabic right? I'm not saying we shouldn't fight at all, but we have enough domestic problems and I say should the problem arise where somebody wants to get tough with us, we fuck them up. I'm saying we shouldn't go out of our way to encourage people to hate us. Have you ever been to Europe Mark? Anti-Americanism is huge there. Even if you go to French Canada it can be seen. I see your stance and respect it, I whole-heartedly disagree with it though.

Yeah, but they hate everybody

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Now you're just being stupid. :)

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Yeah, but they hate everybody

lol. This is a very true statement. They still fighting for independence from Canada? Fucking Queebs.

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:13 AM
Are you a Terminator? Sent back in the past to protect me?

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:26 AM
You're living in the present and can see in to the future. Anybody ever see the show Around the Horn on ESPN? Can we mute Mark for 10 minutes?

Ark2
03-27-2008, 11:26 AM
lol. This is a very true statement. They still fighting for independence from Canada? Fucking Queebs.

Some of them are, yet they want to keep our currency, maintain or arrangement in NAFTA, basically all the perks you get with being part Canada. Now we're trying to push some nation within a nation bullshit on them to quit their bitching. I say let them go, but cut them off completely.

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:29 AM
Let them go, cut them off completely, and then TheForumLand can conquer them. Wanna buy some Quebec rifles? Never been fired and only been dropped once.

Ark2
03-27-2008, 11:36 AM
I'm not so sure, there's something about a couple of loons, floating around on an iceberg that just doesn't scream "intimidation".

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:40 AM
How hard do you think it is to intimidate the French? Let's be realistic here.

Ark2
03-27-2008, 11:42 AM
lol

checkmate

Vert8813B
03-27-2008, 11:50 AM
How do you say "I am French" in English?

"I surrender!"

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