http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25106145/


So its being taught in Saudi schools (in the United States) that its ok to kill.

The school was told to clean up the textbooks and they did, but they also left these text considered OK.

The authors of a 12th-grade text on Quranic interpretation state that apostates (those who convert from Islam), adulterers and people who murder Muslims can be permissibly killed.

The authors of a 12th-grade text on monotheism write that "(m)ajor polytheism makes blood and wealth permissible," meaning that a Muslim can take with impunity the life and property of someone believed guilty of polytheism. According to the panel, the strict Saudi interpretation of polytheism includes Shiite and Sufi Muslims as well as Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.

A social studies text offers the view that Jews were responsible for the split between Sunni and Shiite Muslims: "The cause of the discord: The Jews conspired against Islam and its people. A sly, wicked person who sinfully and deceitfully professed Islam infiltrated (the Muslims)."


When will we realize we are funding countries with our lust for oil to ultimately destroy us? When will we realize that the Quran is NOT a peaceful handbook for Muslims. Its time for the people in the US to drop the P.C. bullshit and take a stand against Islam. Go ahead and call me a racist , I'll call myself a realist.

sadly, you still hold to the same incorrect interpretations.

there are many "versions" of Islam....quoting one thats contrary to the original teachings and doctrine of Islam and then claiming it represents "Islam" as a whole is just as misinformed as these loons who teach that stuff in Saudi and elsewhere. Think about it like this--there is something like 25 million people living in Iraq....while we have what, 160,000 troops there? And we are "the infidels".....right? So, let's piece this together....

1--we are the infidels in their minds, according to the extremists that you claim represent all of Islam
2--they are numerically way superior to us in Iraq.
3--these extremists also teach that dying while serving Allah is the greatest cause a muslim could take on.

So, why havent all of those 25 million people gotten up and just human-wave attacked our "infidels" that are in their country? "Kill the infidels wherever you find them"....remember, marky? Whats stopping them? It isnt fear, because you claim this is what they all believe, so that would take out the fear. It isnt lack of weaponry, because 25 million people with even basic weapons could wipe out 160,000 through sheer attrition alone--just ask Hitler how he lost at Stalingrad, for example. And in that campaign, the Russians had to send out one infantry soldier with a rifle, and have four others without guns run behind him--when he was killed the next in line would pick up his rifle and use it until he was killed, and on and on.

If what you have always claimed about Islam were true, then nearly all Iraqis wouldnt actually be muslims. There is peace in most of that country, where the people work alongside the "american infidels" daily. It shouldnt surprise anyone that this is being taught in a Saudi high school, since the Saudis are the single biggest supporter of terrorism worldwide.

Radical Interpretations...they occur in every religion and generally give all religions a bad name.

See...White Knights of the Klu Klux Klan for rebuttal. They are awesome Christians!

That's just my 2 cents however.

You like to debate so much Sky take this challenge:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

So, why havent all of those 25 million people gotten up and just human-wave attacked our "infidels" that are in their country? "Kill the infidels wherever you find them"....remember, marky? Whats stopping them? It isnt fear, because you claim this is what they all believe, so that would take out the fear

I will concede that I don't know much about this issue, but something about this argument struck me when I read it: it sucks.

Belief in the fact that "killing the infidels" is to do right by your god does not in any way suggest that this would "take out fear". There was a time in both Judaism and in Christianity where it was believed that martyrdom was the ultimate act of honouring God. Does this mean that every Jew and Christian during their respective periods were not afraid to be tortured to death? Does it mean that every Jew and Christian during this time became martyrs? Nope, in fact, hardly any allowed themselves to be subjected to such trials. Those who did however, were revered by those who would. Same thing could apply here.

Quite frankly, your statement is flat out ridiculous. Again, this isn't me getting involved in the issue, just pointing out how astoundingly shitty your quoted argument is.

I will concede that I don't know much about this issue, but something about this argument struck me when I read it: it sucks.

Belief in the fact that "killing the infidels" is to do right by your god does not in any way suggest that this would "take out fear". There was a time in both Judaism and in Christianity where it was believed that martyrdom was the ultimate act of honouring God. Does this mean that every Jew and Christian during their respective periods were not afraid to be tortured to death? Does it mean that every Jew and Christian during this time became martyrs? Nope, in fact, hardly any allowed themselves to be subjected to such trials. Those who did however, were revered by those who would. Same thing could apply here.

Quite frankly, your statement is flat out ridiculous. Again, this isn't me getting involved in the issue, just pointing out how astoundingly shitty your quoted argument is.

not even close, ark...not even close...

for one thing--what do you think Islam says will happen to those who disobey Allah? Think about that one for a minute--because if it really was the call from Allah to kill all infidels today, then not doing so would be directly disobeying their god. What does Allah, in their faith, do to muslims who disobey him? In this respect, it CAN take away the fear, because they would believe that certain massive misery would be theirs, as compared to dying and then feeling no pain, being in paradise, with many virgins....which one would you prefer for your eternity???? hmmm....let me think about that one, what a hard choice.....It wont take away all fear, but if that wasnt enough to take away just enough fear to do the deed, then NO ONE would do it.

For another, we are talking about more than 28 million Iraqis. The insurgency is such a small number--definitely less than a million--especially when compared to the total population. this PROVES my point rather than refuting it. Fear, sure, but there is no way that out of 28 million, the overwhelming majority of which are muslims, that more than 27 million of them would succomb to fear when considering the idea of carrying out what they would perceive to be Allah's bidding! The only other LOGICAL idea--exactly what I have maintained---that this is NOT a staple of Islam, but of radically interpreted versions of Islam instead.

So there you have it. that doesnt suck at all, it in fact makes perfect sense. Especially to someone who has been to Iraq for themselves...have you been there? I suspect that had you been, your view would not be the same.

EDIT--please point out to me where the Christian faith adopted such a belief that martyrdom was the way to go.

You like to debate so much Sky take this challenge:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

and just where on earth do you come up with the notion that I approve of this guy? I merely stated that not all MUSLIMS are extremists, and that not all of Islam follows the extremist path. I said nothing more. So whats your point? That I cannot say something like that without proclaiming that Muhammed is the hero of the world or something?

I dont believe that Islam is the "correct" path. However, there is no need to make false claims against a great many muslims that dont follow the extremist versions of things. And thats what you did in this thread, and exactly what marky does all the time. I asked a very good question--why are there so damn many muslims over there that ARE being peaceful if Islam is not at all peaceful? I still await an intelligent answer from anyone....

not even close, ark...not even close...

for one thing--what do you think Islam says will happen to those who disobey Allah? Think about that one for a minute--because if it really was the call from Allah to kill all infidels today, then not doing so would be directly disobeying their god. What does Allah, in their faith, do to muslims who disobey him? In this respect, it CAN take away the fear, because they would believe that certain massive misery would be theirs, as compared to dying and then feeling no pain, being in paradise, with many virgins....which one would you prefer for your eternity???? hmmm....let me think about that one, what a hard choice
Not even close sky, not even close.

If put a gun to your head and told you that if you didn't rob a bank, then I would kill you, would you not be afraid to rob a bank? How about if I told you that if you did rob the bank, then I would give you all kinds of riches and treasures, would you be afraid then? Read 2 Maccabees and you'll see that Jews during this period believed in bodily resurrection. They believed that suffering for their faith would result in such a reward. Yet, most of them avoided these tribulations none the less.

FEAR: it is the quintessential element of humanity. It isn't simply undone by your wild generalizations and assumptions.

.....It wont take away all fear, but if that wasnt enough to take away just enough fear to do the deed, then NO ONE would do it.

This is a very ignorant statement, sky. To suggest that everyone would be equally affected by fear is utterly absurd.

For another, we are talking about more than 28 million Iraqis. The insurgency is such a small number--definitely less than a million--especially when compared to the total population. this PROVES my point rather than refuting it. Fear, sure, but there is no way that out of 28 million, the overwhelming majority of which are muslims, that more than 27 million of them would succomb to fear when considering the idea of carrying out what they would perceive to be Allah's bidding! The only other LOGICAL idea--exactly what I have maintained---that this is NOT a staple of Islam, but of radically interpreted versions of Islam instead.

You are making a mistake here. Do not look at their actions to tell you what they believe, look at how they feel about those who do commit themselves to "killing the infidels". If someone dies during the process of killing a bunch of "heretics", how do the comrades of this individual look at such an act? That is the question that you need to be asking. Fear is a far greater hinderance of action than it is of belief.

So there you have it. that doesnt suck at all, it in fact makes perfect sense. Especially to someone who has been to Iraq for themselves...have you been there? I suspect that had you been, your view would not be the same.

Your argument is terrrible, sir. Perhaps you've gotten lazy from certain bouts long since past. Bringing up the fact that you served in Iraq means nothing when the issue is your abstract assessment of fear, not what you've observed. If it is your wish to "wow" me with your trials, please write me off as a lost cause, because I do not care what you have seen or experienced. Shit, let's make it easy for you, let's suggest that this issue of fear is centred around a hypothetical group of tribesmen living in the Arctic Circle.

EDIT--please point out to me where the Christian faith adopted such a belief that martyrdom was the way to go.

I suggest that you do a little research before you try calling me out. Please see: The Letters of Ignatius, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, and The Passion of Perpetua for futher details.

Listen, be you Sunni or Shia Islamic the bottom line is the Quran states to strike down infidels. I am an infidel. Call me an Islamophobe if you want but this religion of peace is bullshit.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.jihadwatch.org

Tighten up, when the Dems end the war in Iraq you can bet the house on it you will see attacks on American soil again. I apologize for not agreeing with SkyDivr either, apparently that makes my point of view "unintelligent".

Listen, be you Sunni or Shia Islamic the bottom line is the Quran states to strike down infidels. I am an infidel. Call me an Islamophobe if you want but this religion of peace is bullshit.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.jihadwatch.org

Tighten up, when the Dems end the war in Iraq you can bet the house on it you will see attacks on American soil again. I apologize for not agreeing with SkyDivr either, apparently that makes my point of view "unintelligent".

again, youre using the same heavily biased sources that marky always tries to use. I am not questioning or denying the fact that muslim extremists are exactly as those websites describe. But you lump all of islam together and call it one and the same. It isnt. The extremists are the ones that strap on bombs and fly airliners into buildings. There are plenty of muslims that not only dont do those things, but also dont believe in others doing those things.

Someone posted a link in one of these islam threads recently, from a muslim, that completely proved the point I am making. gonna hafta see if I can find it.

Oh, one more thing, no need to get all sarcastic about the "intelligent" comment, as that was nothing close to what I said and you know it. I said I was waiting for an intelligent response, not an intelligent person to respond. No need to try to twist what I said, I can state what I think all by myself thanks.

Bottom line is the Quran states in all versions and interpretations to seek out and kill the non-Muslims (Jews, Christians). I am not religious by any means but I do know that Christians follow the New Testament and not the Old so any arguement that The Bible states things like this doesnt work for me. I'll share a few out of hundreds of direct text from the Quran:

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)

This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.



Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”

This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.


Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5)


8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”


Sura 4:74: “Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.”



Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”



Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)






I picked a few quotes like I said out of HUNDREDS. Islam is not a peaceful religion period and no such thing as a moderate Muslim exists. Do you pick and choose the words out of the Bible or do you look at it as the word of God himself? Also I agree with Ark on this:

FEAR: it is the quintessential element of humanity.

You can look online and see pictures AND videos of protesting Muslims who would love to watch you and I perish anytime, anyday. Just because the whole country chooses not to rise against us doesnt mean that the majority of people arent praising the suicide bombers, grooming the children they have to hate the Infidels. You know in Palestine suicide bombers are put on magazine covers, they are the equivalent of sports stars in the US. I hate to say I have a closed mind to this discussion but its the truth. We are at war, will you be prepared?

Not even close sky, not even close.

If put a gun to your head and told you that if you didn't rob a bank, then I would kill you, would you not be afraid to rob a bank? How about if I told you that if you did rob the bank, then I would give you all kinds of riches and treasures, would you be afraid then? Read 2 Maccabees and you'll see that Jews during this period believed in bodily resurrection. They believed that suffering for their faith would result in such a reward. Yet, most of them avoided these tribulations none the less.

This is a really ridiculous argument. because no matter what you say about robbing the bank, I still know that its a wrong act. The extremists teach others that becoming a martyr is the RIGHT thing. Big difference. No matter what you say about your bank scenario, it isnt anywhere close to the same. Forcing someone to do something that they know is wrong, that they are afraid of, even if there's money involved, that makes the money a very small reward. They would know that they would have to live with the guilt afterwards. But a muslim who's contemplating martyrdom wont have to live with any guilt....because he wont be alive anymore for one thing. And second, they are taught that martyrdom is the highest thing you can become--a far cry from "here rob this bank and I'll split the money with you". A MUCH greater reward in their eyes. n You just compared the concept of dispbeying God to robbing a bank....bad call.


FEAR: it is the quintessential element of humanity. It isn't simply undone by your wild generalizations and assumptions.

It doesnt have to be undone. It would only have to be lessened enough that the perceived reward would be considered greater. And to a muslim, finding favor with Allah would be one great reward....no?


This is a very ignorant statement, sky. To suggest that everyone would be equally affected by fear is utterly absurd.

I never suggested any such thing. Dont know where in the world you get that. For example, when talking about fear, some extremists would not need much coaching or encouragement to get past the fear of dying because they believe that Allah will reward them. Others would need more, perhaps. Notice that I did not quantify that fear, like youre claiming I did. I never did so because THAT would make it a "one size fits all" thing. Taking away "just enough to do the deed" is not going to be the same in everyone, cant you see that? Where in the world do you get from that, that I claimed one size fits all? More fear or less, isnt it still hypothetically possible to take away enough fear through teaching to get different people to do it? If one guy needs more to get there, then wouldnt they just give him more motivation? think about that--its a basic concept that is used all over the place every day for lesser things. Parents do it with their kids. It happens in boot camp--different recruits need different motivation. It happens a lot more than youre realizing, and it NEVER was claimed to be one size for everyone. You want to talk about "human nature"...well, isnt seeking reward also human nature? If you build up the reward high enough, you will overcome the fears of a lot of people. hence the "77 virgins" and such....

You are making a mistake here. Do not look at their actions to tell you what they believe, look at how they feel about those who do commit themselves to "killing the infidels". If someone dies during the process of killing a bunch of "heretics", how do the comrades of this individual look at such an act? That is the question that you need to be asking. Fear is a far greater hinderance of action than it is of belief.

yes, lets look at how the muslims over there feel about their fellow muslims who are attacking the "infidels", shall we??? This is only more proof of what I have said--that not all muslims follow the same "islam".....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080619/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_weapons_found

Iraqi citizens are coming forward with increasing frequency and supplying information because, thanks to the increased effectiveness of security measures there, they are fearing less and less the repercussions that would come from informing the US troops. The people that do this are more afraid of their own fellow muslims than they are of the "infidels", since they willingly help our troops! If all of islam was the same, as rex has claimed, then these people wouldnt help the American "infidels" with this information. Is it perfect? No, I am sure it is not. But it does definitely show that there are different thought processes among muslims--that they dont all follow the same teachings. And thats all I stated in the first place.

Your argument is terrrible, sir. Perhaps you've gotten lazy from certain bouts long since past. Bringing up the fact that you served in Iraq means nothing when the issue is your abstract assessment of fear, not what you've observed. If it is your wish to "wow" me with your trials, please write me off as a lost cause, because I do not care what you have seen or experienced. Shit, let's make it easy for you, let's suggest that this issue of fear is centred around a hypothetical group of tribesmen living in the Arctic Circle.

youre posting sarcasm and comparing the thought of disobeying their god to robbing a bank....and you claim MY argument is terrible? hmm....ok....my argument is based on real world experience, combined with more current events going on over there. All youve posted here is sarcasm and very bad attempts at analogies.

Look--this really isnt hard. I never claimed that no muslims act like this. I said that they dont all act like this. Meaning, not all muslims follow the same extremist teachings. For example, in the Quran, the most commonly misquoted line is "kill the infidels wherever you find them". If you took the time to read the rest of that text you would know that those were instructions on what to do when AT WAR, when attacked by another power. It was NOT EVER a general instruction that was to hold true for all time--it was in a time of war and had its specific purpose. To think that this is supposed to apply to all muslims today would be like saying "Gee, Abraham found favor with God, and he almost killed his beloved son Isaac because God told him to--that must mean that I should try to kill my son so that I can go to heaven too!"

It was a statement made within a historical event, during a war. And to this day it is misquoted everywhere.


I suggest that you do a little research before you try calling me out. Please see: The Letters of Ignatius, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, and The Passion of Perpetua for futher details.

um, hey chief, I wasnt calling you out, I was sincerely asking for you to provide info on this. geez....

in either event, looking at some of your examples, I notice one rather glaring difference. Those who died for the Christian cause did so without "killing infidels", rather, they were arrested and killed as an example to discourage christianity. The martyrs we speak of within islam become martyrs in the course of taking other human lives to death with them. You may not notice that difference, but I do. Its one thing to believe in your cause so strongly that you would die for it instead of fighting to free yourself....its another entirely to believe in your cause so strongly as to kill unarmed civilians that you dont even know. Thats quite a difference, and while the word 'martyr' is used in both cases, the meaning and the path to get there make all the difference in my mind.

In it's most basic form, Sky's point in the argument is correct: Many muslims are not raging fanatics who's only goals in their life is to seek out what their religion considers to be infidels and wipe them out. There's no denying that there is a growing number of them that are latching onto the idea of the radical side of their religion, and that many are being recruited into the ranks of those that carry out terrorist attacks, but for the most part the majority of them are not yet engaging in these activities.

For the average muslim family man in the middle eastern countries, the priority is not placed on joining some group to kill infidels. Their priorities are more aimed at feeding their families and trying to stay out of the war stuff. Sure, there are always those that will join right up in the wave of emotion that affects their locale, but mostly they simply want to go back to peace in their local area. Many of them, especially in lesser developed countries like Afghanistan, could give a shit less about what happens outside of their village.

Bleh, reading your arguments is like watching a fat kid do the truffle dance. You got a real ego problem there buddy considering your complete inability to every admit that you are wrong. Anyway, here we go...

This is a really ridiculous argument. because no matter what you say about robbing the bank, I still know that its a wrong act. The extremists teach others that becoming a martyr is the RIGHT thing. Big difference. No matter what you say about your bank scenario, it isnt anywhere close to the same. Forcing someone to do something that they know is wrong, that they are afraid of, even if there's money involved, that makes the money a very small reward. They would know that they would have to live with the guilt afterwards. But a muslim who's contemplating martyrdom wont have to live with any guilt....because he wont be alive anymore for one thing. And second, they are taught that martyrdom is the highest thing you can become--a far cry from "here rob this bank and I'll split the money with you". A MUCH greater reward in their eyes. n You just compared the concept of dispbeying God to robbing a bank....bad call.

Most people don't view their actions as wrong if they are forced to do it against their will. Some may, but this does not invalidate anything. Let me give you a hint about analogies: they usually aren't bang on. You will probably always be able to find some minute, irrelevant distinction and claim that the difference rules out the comparison entirely. Doing so doesn't prove shit however. The subject is fear, and to propose that if all muslims believed in killing in infidels, that none of them would be afaid of dying (which is what you actually said) is absurd. Don't try to detract from the stupidity of your statement by calling my analogy ridiculous.

It doesnt have to be undone. It would only have to be lessened enough that the perceived reward would be considered greater. And to a muslim, finding favor with Allah would be one great reward....no?

Oh gee, what a surprise... more wiggling from you. Your first statement (the one that I took issue with) said that belief in the fact that god wants you to kill infidels would "take out the fear" and that the fact that they aren't doing it has nothing to do with fear. Now you wanna claim that there is still fear, just that it is lessened enough? What is it with you? You were wrong, own up and move on. You've got a real problem there buddy.

I never suggested any such thing. Dont know where in the world you get that. For example, when talking about fear, some extremists would not need much coaching or encouragement to get past the fear of dying because they believe that Allah will reward them. Others would need more, perhaps. Notice that I did not quantify that fear, like youre claiming I did. I never did so because THAT would make it a "one size fits all" thing. Taking away "just enough to do the deed" is not going to be the same in everyone, cant you see that? Where in the world do you get from that, that I claimed one size fits all? More fear or less, isnt it still hypothetically possible to take away enough fear through teaching to get different people to do it? If one guy needs more to get there, then wouldnt they just give him more motivation? think about that--its a basic concept that is used all over the place every day for lesser things. Parents do it with their kids. It happens in boot camp--different recruits need different motivation. It happens a lot more than youre realizing, and it NEVER was claimed to be one size for everyone. You want to talk about "human nature"...well, isnt seeking reward also human nature? If you build up the reward high enough, you will overcome the fears of a lot of people. hence the "77 virgins" and such....

I read through your point and I realize that I misunderstood what you said. Therefore, I should not have replied as I did.

There, now that wasn't so hard, You might want to try this once and a while.

yes, lets look at how the muslims over there feel about their fellow muslims who are attacking the "infidels", shall we??? This is only more proof of what I have said--that not all muslims follow the same "islam".....

I think I set the table pretty adequately that I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing. If I was unclear about that, allow me to be more explicit. I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing.

youre posting sarcasm and comparing the thought of disobeying their god to robbing a bank....and you claim MY argument is terrible? hmm....ok....my argument is based on real world experience, combined with more current events going on over there. All youve posted here is sarcasm and very bad attempts at analogies.

This is your argument:

So, why havent all of those 25 million people gotten up and just human-wave attacked our "infidels" that are in their country? "Kill the infidels wherever you find them"....remember, marky? Whats stopping them? It isnt fear, because you claim this is what they all believe, so that would take out the fear

You can change your tune after the fact and say that "some fear" or "lessen the fear" but that was not your point to begin with. You're argument is terrible and I will keep saying that until you drop the ego and admit it.

Look--this really isnt hard. I never claimed that no muslims act like this. I said that they dont all act like this. Meaning, not all muslims follow the same extremist teachings. For example, in the Quran, the most commonly misquoted line is "kill the infidels wherever you find them". If you took the time to read the rest of that text you would know that those were instructions on what to do when AT WAR, when attacked by another power. It was NOT EVER a general instruction that was to hold true for all time--it was in a time of war and had its specific purpose. To think that this is supposed to apply to all muslims today would be like saying "Gee, Abraham found favor with God, and he almost killed his beloved son Isaac because God told him to--that must mean that I should try to kill my son so that I can go to heaven too!"

The subject is fear which applies to muslims. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary.

just thougt I'd get that in there a couple more times, might spare me having to read through your book length rants about something that isn't the issue*.

*this refers to the issue that you and I are discussing, please don't reference 80 billion posts made by yzf.

um, hey chief, I wasnt calling you out, I was sincerely asking for you to provide info on this. geez....

in either event, looking at some of your examples, I notice one rather glaring difference. Those who died for the Christian cause did so without "killing infidels", rather, they were arrested and killed as an example to discourage christianity. The martyrs we speak of within islam become martyrs in the course of taking other human lives to death with them. You may not notice that difference, but I do. Its one thing to believe in your cause so strongly that you would die for it instead of fighting to free yourself....its another entirely to believe in your cause so strongly as to kill unarmed civilians that you dont even know. Thats quite a difference, and while the word 'martyr' is used in both cases, the meaning and the path to get there make all the difference in my mind.

Here we go again. Jewish and Christian martyrs were brought up to show their fear being overcome due to their faith. The parallel was drawn to show that many believed that it was the right thing to do, but few were able to overcome their fears and endure torture. People who merely kill others in the name of their faith are not martyrs. I never suggested that muslims are martyrs.

Bleh, reading your arguments is like watching a fat kid do the truffle dance. You got a real ego problem there buddy considering your complete inability to every admit that you are wrong. Anyway, here we go...



Most people don't view their actions as wrong if they are forced to do it against their will. Some may, but this does not invalidate anything. Let me give you a hint about analogies: they usually aren't bang on. You will probably always be able to find some minute, irrelevant distinction and claim that the difference rules out the comparison entirely. Doing so doesn't prove shit however. The subject is fear, and to propose that if all muslims believed in killing in infidels, that none of them would be afaid of dying (which is what you actually said) is absurd. Don't try to detract from the stupidity of your statement by calling my analogy ridiculous.



Oh gee, what a surprise... more wiggling from you. Your first statement (the one that I took issue with) said that belief in the fact that god wants you to kill infidels would "take out the fear" and that the fact that they aren't doing it has nothing to do with fear. Now you wanna claim that there is still fear, just that it is lessened enough? What is it with you? You were wrong, own up and move on. You've got a real problem there buddy.



I read through your point and I realize that I misunderstood what you said. Therefore, I should not have replied as I did.

There, now that wasn't so hard, You might want to try this once and a while.



I think I set the table pretty adequately that I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing. If I was unclear about that, allow me to be more explicit. I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing.



This is your argument:



You can change your tune after the fact and say that "some fear" or "lessen the fear" but that was not your point to begin with. You're argument is terrible and I will keep saying that until you drop the ego and admit it.



The subject is fear which applies to muslims. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary.

just thougt I'd get that in there a couple more times, might spare me having to read through your book length rants about something that isn't the issue*.

*this refers to the issue that you and I are discussing, please don't reference 80 billion posts made by yzf.

um, hey chief, I wasnt calling you out, I was sincerely asking for you to provide info on this. geez....



Here we go again. Jewish and Christian martyrs were brought up to show their fear being overcome due to their faith. The parallel was drawn to show that many believed that it was the right thing to do, but few were able to overcome their fears and endure torture. People who merely kill others in the name of their faith are not martyrs. I never suggested that muslims are martyrs.

:owned:

No Nation nor religion fully contains peaceful people. The smallest group can gain global attention if it bangs loud enough. Dont be afraid my friends. I'm always in front clearing the way.

No Nation nor religion fully contains peaceful people. The smallest group can gain global attention if it bangs loud enough. Dont be afraid my friends. I'm always in front clearing the way.

Let them be loud. I speak softly and carry a big stick. Two of them. Chambered in .223 and 7.62x39.

again, youre using the same heavily biased sources that marky always tries to use.

Just because something is biased doesn't mean it's not true. Only that it is passably suspect and in need of more research.

Bleh, reading your arguments is like watching a fat kid do the truffle dance. You got a real ego problem there buddy considering your complete inability to every admit that you are wrong. Anyway, here we go...

Next time, try it without the personal attack BS.



Most people don't view their actions as wrong if they are forced to do it against their will. Some may, but this does not invalidate anything. Let me give you a hint about analogies: they usually aren't bang on. You will probably always be able to find some minute, irrelevant distinction and claim that the difference rules out the comparison entirely. Doing so doesn't prove shit however. The subject is fear, and to propose that if all muslims believed in killing in infidels, that none of them would be afaid of dying (which is what you actually said) is absurd. Don't try to detract from the stupidity of your statement by calling my analogy ridiculous.

yoru analogy wasnt "a little off". It was WAY off. You compared the reward of money from a bank to eternal paradise. you compared being forced to do something you know is wrong to doing something of your own free will that you have specifically been taught is right. Your analogy, in a nutshell, sucked. Badly. It didnt have to be "bang-on"...but it could have at least been in the same ballpark.

OK, why not? Lets run further with the ball you just threw in here. People rationalize it if they are forced to do it, right? They dont hold themselves accountable because they were forced, right? Well, as I said, your analogy completely sucked here. No one forces an extremist muslim to kill "infidels". No one forces that muslim to die in the course of doing so. It is a choice that they make themselves. There is a massive difference between being forced to do what you know is wrong, and volunteering to do what you profoundly believe is right.

Like I said, your analogy sucked. Any questions?


Oh gee, what a surprise... more wiggling from you. Your first statement (the one that I took issue with) said that belief in the fact that god wants you to kill infidels would "take out the fear" and that the fact that they aren't doing it has nothing to do with fear. Now you wanna claim that there is still fear, just that it is lessened enough? What is it with you? You were wrong, own up and move on. You've got a real problem there buddy.

There is no problem, and there was no wiggling. The point made earlier in this thread that you apparently bypassed completely was that someone claimed that Islam as a whole is basically the same as the extremist BS we see today about "kill all the infidels". To those people, the fear IS gone--they volunteer to do what they are taught, often from a very young age, is not only right, but commanded by their god. They are taught that doing this will please their god to the point that they will be rewarded like no other person on this planet will be. Thats the truth of it. When I said that it would take the fear out, consider for a moment the hard-line extremists that have already chosen this path. Were they afraid of dying? Perhaps some of them were. But were they afraid enough to change their mind? Didnt think so.

No wiggling there, chief---my point makes perfect sense, especially in the face of everything that people here have tried to say. you cannot lump all of Islam together, like some here have tried to do. Thats the fact.

I read through your point and I realize that I misunderstood what you said. Therefore, I should not have replied as I did.

There, now that wasn't so hard, You might want to try this once and a while.

Thanks for your honesty.....if I find myself in a position where I did something wrong, then I would be happy to do the same. In the meantime, you should look at what I have actually said in here instead of making such a big deal out of nothing. My point all along was that Islam is not one group with all the same beliefs or actions, not even close. Everything I have said points to that end result. I am sorry if you think youre getting somewhere with this "fear fear fear" bit...because fear was never the topic of this thread--claims about Islam all being the same were. A helpful clue to this could be found in the thread's title:

When will we realize that Islam is not a peaceful religion?

Now, please, show me where the word "fear" even appears in there.:bigthumb:

I think I set the table pretty adequately that I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing. If I was unclear about that, allow me to be more explicit. I am not arguing that all muslims believe the same thing.

perhaps you arent, but the fact remains that you walked directly into the middle of a thread where that was the exact debate that was taking place. That isnt my fault or doing, please stop acting like it is.


You can change your tune after the fact and say that "some fear" or "lessen the fear" but that was not your point to begin with. You're argument is terrible and I will keep saying that until you drop the ego and admit it.

again, whats with the personal crap? I am simply taking part in a discussion and leaving all that nonsense out---whats your excuse for not doing the same? This isnt about ego--it is about the simple fact that there is not just one version of Islam. It is about the fact that the many different versions that all get wrapped up into one group are sometimes as different as night and day. THAT was the topic of this thread. Ego?? Who needs ego to dispel such a claim as saying that all of Islam is exactly the same? Are all catholics the same? Nope. how about all democrats? hmmm, no...maybe all New York Mets fans are the same?? hmmm, uh uh. Is any of this getting through??

Also, when talking about these extremists, you keep harping on the fear factor. you also said that while not all of them may choose martyrdom, those who wont will still revere those who will. Well, I posted a link that talked all about muslims cooperating willingly and freely with "infidels" where they could simply keep their mouths shut. doesnt sound like they are thinking too much about their martyrs there, does it?

In either case, if you cannot debate this with maturity, then you can debate it by yourself. constantly harping about ego and making accusations dont belong here, you should know better than that by now with the fine example that marky has set here.


The subject is fear which applies to muslims. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary. The subject is fear. Muslims are secondary.

No, the subject is NOT fear. The subject is "Islam is not a peaceful religion". Again, read the title. Feel free to make your own thread all you like about fear.

The subject is fear, and to propose that if all muslims believed in killing in infidels, that none of them would be afaid of dying (which is what you actually said) is absurd. Don't try to detract from the stupidity of your statement by calling my analogy ridiculous.

I NEVER said that all muslims would not fear death. I NEVER made such a claim. What I said was If all muslims were extremists, why wouldnt the 28 million muslims in Iraq be making human wave attacks? Why wouldnt they be doing more against the "infidels"?"

THAT is what I said. When youre done fabricating things that I supposedly posted, let me know. Hell, I even clarified that for you in the next post, when you pretended that I said that all muslims would handle fear the exact same way--somethign else that I didnt ever say or imply.

Bottom line is the Quran states in all versions and interpretations to seek out and kill the non-Muslims (Jews, Christians). I am not religious by any means but I do know that Christians follow the New Testament and not the Old so any arguement that The Bible states things like this doesnt work for me. I'll share a few out of hundreds of direct text from the Quran:

Yes, and as stated already, when you take things out of context, you dont get the proper meaning. For example, the part about "kill the infidels wherever you find them"--here is what the Quran really says there:

" Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).(Qur'an 2:190-194)

This is so very clearly about war. This talks about how to handle those who attack muslims. "slay them wherever you find them"....right? Look at all the things that passage says about when to NOT attack unbelievers. There are plenty of others like this too.


I picked a few quotes like I said out of HUNDREDS.

I dont doubt that. Like I said before, I am not muslim and I dont personally believe it is the "correct" belief. But there is so much more to it than just "kill them all". Reading the actual passages instead of someone else's snippets would help sort that out.

By the way, the same can be said about other books, including the Bible. There is a lot of war in the Bible--go read the old testament sometime, about the things that happened to the enemies of the Jews....entire countries were decimated in wars, with no mercy shown--in this, the Quran even instructs mercy where the Bible didnt!

Islam is not a peaceful religion period and no such thing as a moderate Muslim exists. Do you pick and choose the words out of the Bible or do you look at it as the word of God himself?

What exactly is your point? You picked and chose the words from the Quran that you took to heart, not me. I didnt cherrypick it at all. I look at the book as a whole, which is all I suggested about the Quran as well. Taking individual sentences out of context will get you no more understanding than not opening the book at all.

You can look online and see pictures AND videos of protesting Muslims who would love to watch you and I perish anytime, anyday. Just because the whole country chooses not to rise against us doesnt mean that the majority of people arent praising the suicide bombers, grooming the children they have to hate the Infidels. You know in Palestine suicide bombers are put on magazine covers, they are the equivalent of sports stars in the US. I hate to say I have a closed mind to this discussion but its the truth. We are at war, will you be prepared?[/QUOTE]

yes, I know, I have been over there before. And I have already been to war. I was prepared just fine. And again, I dont want this point misunderstood--I completely agree that many of these extremist muslims are way out there with the acts they commit. But that is NOT ALL OF ISLAM. You can point to any videos on youtube or elsewhere that you like---you still will not find one that proves your claim that all of Islam is the same. It isnt islam we need to be concerned with--its RADICAL islam. There is a difference. Many muslims over there just want to be left to tend to their families and live their lives. It then becomes a problem of picking out which ones are the "bad guys" and which ones arent.

Next time, try it without the personal attack BS.

Please define personal attack for me. Most members are not as thin skinned as you and would not consider anything that I've written to be a personal attack. If there is a line, please show me where it is so I can avoid crossing it.

yoru analogy wasnt "a little off". It was WAY off. You compared the reward of money from a bank to eternal paradise. you compared being forced to do something you know is wrong to doing something of your own free will that you have specifically been taught is right. Your analogy, in a nutshell, sucked. Badly. It didnt have to be "bang-on"...but it could have at least been in the same ballpark.

It covered the theme of one overcoming their fear (despite the fact that they would still be burdened by it) because of outside motivators (whether that motivator be fear of punishment or desire for reward). The entire point of the analogy was to show that fear would still be present despite compliance with the act (of robbing a bank). The fact that you believe that robbing the bank is wrong means absolutely nothing, Think about this for a minute before you respond. You believe that robbing a bank is wrong, but you aren't just afraid of robbing it because you are afraid to do something "wrong". You are afraid because you could get shot, arrested, beaten, ect. The fear of such things has nothing to do with your own personal morality. Suppose that you held no moral objection to robbing a bank, the fear of getting shot, arrested, beaten, etc. would still be present, and that was the point the entire time. I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time with this, and really, I should not have expected otherwise, but come on, these are baby steps here. Any smaller and I'm going to have to teach you how to crawl.

OK, why not? Lets run further with the ball you just threw in here. People rationalize it if they are forced to do it, right? They dont hold themselves accountable because they were forced, right? Well, as I said, your analogy completely sucked here. No one forces an extremist muslim to kill "infidels". No one forces that muslim to die in the course of doing so. It is a choice that they make themselves. There is a massive difference between being forced to do what you know is wrong, and volunteering to do what you profoundly believe is right.

As I have said, this has no relevance what-so-ever. You said that if they believed that killing infidels was right, which is what the OP had stated, then they would not be stopped by fear because belief in the fact that doing so would be right would "take out the fear". I'm not fabricating anything, or trying to shift your words around, you said exactly that. Don't remember? Here, let me help you:

So, why havent all of those 25 million people gotten up and just human-wave attacked our "infidels" that are in their country? "Kill the infidels wherever you find them"....remember, marky? Whats stopping them? It isnt fear, because you claim this is what they all believe, so that would take out the fear.

Like I said, your analogy sucked. Any questions?

Nope. Doesn't suck at all. The more that I think about it, the more I realize that it's actually pretty damn good.

There is no problem, and there was no wiggling. The point made earlier in this thread that you apparently bypassed completely was that someone claimed that Islam as a whole is basically the same as the extremist BS we see today about "kill all the infidels". To those people, the fear IS gone--they volunteer to do what they are taught, often from a very young age, is not only right, but commanded by their god. They are taught that doing this will please their god to the point that they will be rewarded like no other person on this planet will be. Thats the truth of it. When I said that it would take the fear out, consider for a moment the hard-line extremists that have already chosen this path. Were they afraid of dying? Perhaps some of them were. But were they afraid enough to change their mind? Didnt think so.

So now the fear is back to being gone again? A post ago it was lessened just enough to be able to do something. Tell you what though, let's assume that those who you and I would consider "hard-line extremists" have no fear of dying when they kill themselves in the process of doing god's work. Now, let's go back to the other 25 million people who don't kill themselves for Allah. Supposing that they too believe as hard-line extemists do, why don't they die for Allah? Is it possible that they are afraid of death? Is it possible that they are afraid of abandoning their families? Is it possible that they are afraid of implicating their children? Not according to you, because somehow, if they believed that dying for Allah was the right thing, fear would magically become a non factor for them. This is the point that I was debating the entire time. I'm not sure why you took to pointing out that extremists who have died were able to overcome their fear (no shit) but I suspect that it has something to do with destracting from an argument that you are losing.

No wiggling there, chief---my point makes perfect sense, especially in the face of everything that people here have tried to say. you cannot lump all of Islam together, like some here have tried to do. Thats the fact.

I'm not trying to lump all of Islam together. In fact, I don't believe that I have ever said that all muslims think alike, or that they've all adopted that "kill the infidels whereever you find them" stance. What I have been saying however, is that if they have all adopted this stance, the fact that they are not all acting in kind has nothing to do with your lousy argument (that argument being that if they were as stated above, they would have no fear to carry out god's work).

Thanks for your honesty.....if I find myself in a position where I did something wrong, then I would be happy to do the same. In the meantime, you should look at what I have actually said in here instead of making such a big deal out of nothing. My point all along was that Islam is not one group with all the same beliefs or actions, not even close. Everything I have said points to that end result. I am sorry if you think youre getting somewhere with this "fear fear fear" bit...because fear was never the topic of this thread--claims about Islam all being the same were. A helpful clue to this could be found in the thread's title:

Threads morph and change as they go on. You brought up the topic of fear and I pointed out your misapplication of it. If you're not sure as to how we got here, a helpful clue to this could (and presently still can) be found in your opening post in this thread.

Now, please, show me where the word "fear" even appears in there.:bigthumb:

Read above. By your logic though, you should only be allowed to use words that are found in the original post. Yeah, that makes sense :bigthumb:

perhaps you arent, but the fact remains that you walked directly into the middle of a thread where that was the exact debate that was taking place. That isnt my fault or doing, please stop acting like it is.

I'm not saying that my position on this matter is your fault, what I am saying is that it is pretty fucking stupid for you to ramble on and on (when responding to me) about an issue that neither of us is debating. If you are so intent on continuing to do so then be my guest, I'm just not sure what the point is.

again, whats with the personal crap? I am simply taking part in a discussion and leaving all that nonsense out---whats your excuse for not doing the same? This isnt about ego--it is about the simple fact that there is not just one version of Islam. It is about the fact that the many different versions that all get wrapped up into one group are sometimes as different as night and day. THAT was the topic of this thread. Ego?? Who needs ego to dispel such a claim as saying that all of Islam is exactly the same? Are all catholics the same? Nope. how about all democrats? hmmm, no...maybe all New York Mets fans are the same?? hmmm, uh uh. Is any of this getting through??

I actually took "ego" straight from your repertoire. I do not view it as a personal attack though. When someone has an inability to admit that they are wrong, then you have to wonder why that is, especially when their mistake has been repeatedly pointed out to them again and again. I think I took a pretty accurate stab at this and called it "ego".

Also, when talking about these extremists, you keep harping on the fear factor. you also said that while not all of them may choose martyrdom, those who wont will still revere those who will. Well, I posted a link that talked all about muslims cooperating willingly and freely with "infidels" where they could simply keep their mouths shut. doesnt sound like they are thinking too much about their martyrs there, does it?

Actually, I said that Jewish and Christian martyrs were revered by other Jews and Christians. Then, I said to look at how comrades of extremists who don't kill themselves look at those extremists who do. I did not suppose or assume their beliefs one way or the other, I just suggested that that was the better place to look.

In either case, if you cannot debate this with maturity, then you can debate it by yourself. constantly harping about ego and making accusations dont belong here, you should know better than that by now with the fine example that marky has set here.

If you don't want to debate with me, then don't. I won't lose any rest over it. I do however, believe in calling a spade a spade and your inability to own up to your mistakes on this board screams ego to me. Hey, I have it myself, I've spent the last 45 minutes responding to this because of it. And come on, like you haven't called people liars, or "bad examples" here yourself*

*please don't ramble on and on about how that is completely different and how I "couldn't be more wrong". It's the same thing, whether you like to admit it or not.

No, the subject is NOT fear. The subject is "Islam is not a peaceful religion". Again, read the title. Feel free to make your own thread all you like about fear.

Between you and I, the subject is fear. Look, I said right off the bat that I am not arguing what Islams believe. I said in my very first post in this thread that I wasn't getting involved in the issue. You chose to reply to me and the issue that I took with your argument, which acknowledges this fact.

I NEVER said that all muslims would not fear death. I NEVER made such a claim. What I said was If all muslims were extremists, why wouldnt the 28 million muslims in Iraq be making human wave attacks? Why wouldnt they be doing more against the "infidels"?"

lol, why don't you go one more sentence forward with what you said there? The very next thing you said is that the reason that they don't do it is not because of fear. Given how weak your position is, why are you even arguing. Oh wait, I bet I know why...

THAT is what I said. When youre done fabricating things that I supposedly posted, let me know. Hell, I even clarified that for you in the next post, when you pretended that I said that all muslims would handle fear the exact same way--somethign else that I didnt ever say or imply.

I have not fabricated anything and I did not pretend that you said all muslims would handle fear the same way. I misunderstood what you said, re-read your point and then conceded my mistake (isn't your pointing out the above a fabrication in and of itself?).

I suggest that you take your time responding to this (you might even want to try thinking about it before hitting the reply button).

No Nation nor religion fully contains peaceful people. The smallest group can gain global attention if it bangs loud enough. Dont be afraid my friends. I'm always in front clearing the way.

im a leader