So, regardless if you believe or not, do you want there to be a God? Does anyone who believes in God, wish that there were no God?

I am very curious of who would want a god to exist. it's revengful nature has done a lot of terrible things to people and will more than likely destroy you just for...basically anything under the sun. hint...only 8 people survive in the whole world after It's last spat with humans. :owned:

i haven't voted yet, in some ways i guess it would be nice i mean then you really could have someone to blame when everything fucks up :rofl:

but on the same token, i saw the most beautiful site last night, looking up in the sky and seeing 100,000's of stars and can't help but think there is more out there

don't know, it's awfully confusing

i hear ya.
maybe a kick ass loving god would do. Id vote for that.

Well, if I were to vote yes, assuming there is no god to start with I'd be voting for a god that would make the world a better place (no suffering etc). Assuming there is already a god, or that the world would not change due to the fact that there was a god then No, I wouldn't want one.

I would love it if there was a visible God that everyone would actually see and know was there, so we could stop all the senseless debates on faith. Faith has caused more wars and deaths than anything else in human history. All that could stop with an actual presence and irrefutable proof.

I would love it if there was a visible God that everyone would actually see and know was there, so we could stop all the senseless debates on faith. Faith has caused more wars and deaths than anything else in human history. All that could stop with an actual presence and irrefutable proof.


hear, hear! i was actually gonna try and find a pick of the buddy christ cos if there was a god i'd want him too look like that :rofl:

I like to think of my God partying front row at a Skynrd concert wearing a tuxedo tshirt.

I like to think of my God partying front row at a Skynrd concert wearing a tuxedo tshirt.
Ask and ye shall recieve my son.....
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/791/tuxedotshirtjesusnh8.gif

Win!

i like it :rofl:

No.

well 1 i wasn't refering to your Post YZF

and for your 2nd post, if there is a god then i better have a reservation in heaven for me because i think i've put up with alot of shit that i never deserved in the name of your so called "character building tests"

lulz :owned:

all the wars fought in the name of religion, including the Catholic crusades, were not in the line with the truth of God

Whatever. It was still done, which makes my statement factually correct. I don't care whether or not it was "in line with the truth of God", more people have been killed in the name of RELIGION than any other reason.

Whatever. It was still done, which makes my statement factually correct. I don't care whether or not it was "in line with the truth of God", more people have been killed in the name of RELIGION than any other reason.

frankly, thats the problem here--you dont care about the difference. just because people kill in the name of "religion' that does not in any way mean that God is the one responsible for that. that would be like me declaring you guilty of murder because some guy named Kevin did it. God is often used as a convenient scapegoat for all sorts of reasons, but lets not forget that it is the PEOPLE who use the name of God for their actions.

The fact that you dont care illustrates a lack of understanding that tells a lot. You are talking about people who are killing other people, and in most cases these people are not doing it to defend themselves--if they can seek others out to kill them simply because they are different, then why would it be so hard for you to consider that those killers would not be honest in their claims to start with?? What---a person can go out and kill for no good reason, but you cannot see them lying about God??

gimme a break already....

frankly, thats the problem here--you dont care about the difference. just because people kill in the name of "religion' that does not in any way mean that God is the one responsible for that.

I'm not holding God responsible. I'm holding those who kill in the name of ANY religion responsible, or the intolerance of any religion (i.e. Hitler killing the Jews) responsible.

that would be like me declaring you guilty of murder because some guy named Kevin did it. God is often used as a convenient scapegoat for all sorts of reasons, but lets not forget that it is the PEOPLE who use the name of God for their actions.

The fact that you dont care illustrates a lack of understanding that tells a lot. You are talking about people who are killing other people, and in most cases these people are not doing it to defend themselves--if they can seek others out to kill them simply because they are different, then why would it be so hard for you to consider that those killers would not be honest in their claims to start with?? What---a person can go out and kill for no good reason, but you cannot see them lying about God??

gimme a break already....

Instead of trying to guess what I mean, how about you actually ask me? That's how conversations work.

I said I would love for God to be real, known, and seen, to end the debate. Then, all that shit would stop, because it would be fact, not faith.

Think of it this way:

Suppose "Harold" the real, true creator of everything appeared in the skies to everyone, and corrected ALL the misunderstandings, took away all the doubts, and everyone could understand all that was, is, and ever will be, then we wouldn't have to fight over believing in God, Allah, whatever, because everyone would know that "Harold" was it. No interpretations, no "wait, it really means this, not that", no people using religion to scam people out of money, etc, etc...

Wouldn't it be great to have FACTS and have EVERYONE know all there is to know? Wouldn't you guys like to stop the arguing? Wouldn't you like to see the fights and the killing and the wars stop?

Instead of trying to guess what I mean, how about you actually ask me? That's how conversations work.

trust me on this sky. when someone else says the same thing about you, it is time to pay attention.

trust me on this sky. when someone else says the same thing about you, it is time to pay attention.

that just made me lulzzzorzzzz....

you had what, like five or six different arguments in the last thread you tried to "win" in? not one of them held any water....and then, you actually made the claim that you didnt change your argument at all. Where I'm sitting, you are not the person to talk about what anyone else writes here. But thanks for trying!!! It just warms my widdle heart so to know that you still care enough to send the very best......confusion, that is....

:bigthumb:

Instead of trying to guess what I mean, how about you actually ask me? That's how conversations work.


well gee, wilbur....if you dont really wanna say " I dont care if its real or not", then perhaps you shouldnt say "I dont care if its real or not". just a simple point, really, and i know youre smart enough to grasp it.

I said I would love for God to be real, known, and seen, to end the debate. Then, all that shit would stop, because it would be fact, not faith.

Think of it this way:

Suppose "Harold" the real, true creator of everything appeared in the skies to everyone, and corrected ALL the misunderstandings, took away all the doubts, and everyone could understand all that was, is, and ever will be, then we wouldn't have to fight over believing in God, Allah, whatever, because everyone would know that "Harold" was it. No interpretations, no "wait, it really means this, not that", no people using religion to scam people out of money, etc, etc...

Wouldn't it be great to have FACTS and have EVERYONE know all there is to know? Wouldn't you guys like to stop the arguing? Wouldn't you like to see the fights and the killing and the wars stop?

A few thoughts here....


1--how much loyalty does it take to follow something when the facts are laid bare so that there is no doubt, no possibility of anything else being truth? NONE. if you KNEW today, with no room at all for even a shred of doubt, then EVERYONE would say "take me to heaven", wouldnt they? Once again, if God wanted that, then we would have all been created as robots, incapable of sinning. The whole concept NEEDS FAITH, or it is empty and worthless. think of it like this--


suppose you were the biggest, baddest guy in the land. would people REALLY respect you? or would they just go along with whatever you said because they didnt want you to kick their asses?? God wants TRUE FAITH, not people who follow because there is no other choice.

Second, of course i would like an end to the killing and the wars, but there's one thing you forgot--there cannot be anything in this world without its opposite for balance. there is nothing in existence that has an 'up' without a 'down'....no left without a right, no hot without a cold, no light without dark, no wet without dry....no good without evil.....no peace without war! There is NOTHING in this world that exists without its opposite also existing. So, if God were to come down from the sky and proclaim that all fighting was done and over, then what need would there be for heaven? Wouldnt the earth be that same place then, with none of the things that are here now?

Someday, we all will have those facts that you spoke of, no room for doubt, no ambiguity possible. If I am wrong about God, then you know what will happen??? NOTHING....i will have lived a better life, cared more for the people around me than the average bear, and raised my family according to my sense of morality. THATS IT....NOTHING BAD THERE. I wont have missed out on anything, I wont have any regret that i believed as I did. THATS IT. If we die and simply dont exist anymore on any level, then i wont even have the capacity to regret or think at that point, no???

BUT----if I am RIGHT....then you stand to lose SO MUCH MORE than I would if I were wrong. So, the way i see it, worst case scenario, nothing bad will come of it for me anyways.....worst case scenario for you means eternity in the fire....tell me which one sounds more like a losing prospect no matter what happens....

:rolleyes:

suppose you were the biggest, baddest guy in the land. would people REALLY respect you? or would they just go along with whatever you said because they didnt want you to kick their asses?? God wants TRUE FAITH, not people who follow because there is no other choice.

Oh, so the whole, "follow me, or go to hell" doesn't fall in that category? Seriously, this is where religion loses me: Supposedly, back in the early days, God showed himself all the time. He spoke to Moses, he sent his only son, etc, etc... But now, nothing. We're all supposed to go on faith and believe stories of what happened 2000 years ago, and give our whole hearts and minds, or spend eternity in hell, and you're saying God wants "true faith, not people who follow because there is no other choice"????

Second, of course i would like an end to the killing and the wars, but there's one thing you forgot--there cannot be anything in this world without its opposite for balance. there is nothing in existence that has an 'up' without a 'down'....no left without a right, no hot without a cold, no light without dark, no wet without dry....no good without evil.....no peace without war! There is NOTHING in this world that exists without its opposite also existing.

That's very Zen of you.

So, if God were to come down from the sky and proclaim that all fighting was done and over, then what need would there be for heaven? Wouldnt the earth be that same place then, with none of the things that are here now?

Umm, last I checked, there was a SHITLOAD more problems in this world that wars. Disease, famines, etc?

Someday, we all will have those facts that you spoke of, no room for doubt, no ambiguity possible. If I am wrong about God, then you know what will happen??? NOTHING....i will have lived a better life, cared more for the people around me than the average bear, and raised my family according to my sense of morality. THATS IT....NOTHING BAD THERE. I wont have missed out on anything, I wont have any regret that i believed as I did. THATS IT. If we die and simply dont exist anymore on any level, then i wont even have the capacity to regret or think at that point, no???

BUT----if I am RIGHT....then you stand to lose SO MUCH MORE than I would if I were wrong. So, the way i see it, worst case scenario, nothing bad will come of it for me anyways.....worst case scenario for you means eternity in the fire....tell me which one sounds more like a losing prospect no matter what happens....

And again, I'm not going to live my life based on trusting someone else's faith. I know what I require to believe or not believe, and I have not seen it in the Bible or Christianity. I live under certain morals of what is right and wrong, I raise my children under the same morals, I just don't found it on religious principle.

what, then? conscience?

I take bits and pieces from philosophy here and there and piece it together into what makes the best sense.

ahhhhh....but your views do change from time to time?

No, they are pretty consistent. I might fine tune them and tweak them here and there, but it's slight fluctuation, not diversion or massive change. Biggest change was when Kyan came along... I had to re-prioritize things, but my views still didn't change.

Oh, so the whole, "follow me, or go to hell" doesn't fall in that category? Seriously, this is where religion loses me: Supposedly, back in the early days, God showed himself all the time. He spoke to Moses, he sent his only son, etc, etc... But now, nothing. We're all supposed to go on faith and believe stories of what happened 2000 years ago, and give our whole hearts and minds, or spend eternity in hell, and you're saying God wants "true faith, not people who follow because there is no other choice"????

what youre failing to realize, once again, is that God showing Himself does NOT, repeat NOT take away all the rest, as you suggested. You just brought up the perfect example of this--God showed Himself to this world before--and do you actually think that all the people followed Him then? this goes to show that your "what-if" is entirely too idealistic for even a religious discussion. There will STILL be a flip side to the coin, and there will still be people who mock, doubt, and insult. Like I said, you cannot have one without the other, at least not in this existence.


Umm, last I checked, there was a SHITLOAD more problems in this world that wars. Disease, famines, etc?

And what? Disease has an opposite, its called good health. famine has an opposite, its called abundance. once more, like I keep telling you, one cannot exist without the other! We can name this game all night if you like....hot, cold....inside, outside....black, white....rich, poor.....front, back....partly cloudy, partly sunny.....all things have their opposite. Yes, there's famine...did you ever wonder what could happen to famine if everyone in this world was more concerned with helping each other than lining their own pockets to more than excess? Did you ever stop and think that just maybe this life is like a test to see who deserves what for the next one? No, we wont ever get fully rid of famine, but we CAN do a ton of good for those who are suffering. Instead, we live in a country where you can literally stock your house to bursting with food and then throw half of it away, and the average person doesnt care that the excess they waste could have been far more useful elsewhere.

Some things in this life just plain suck....I agree completely with you there. But rather than pissing and moaning about it in here, imagine what could happen if everyone actually did something about it out there, where the famine is going on? how many people in our own country sleep under a bridge somewhere every night....you dont even have to leave the major cities to find famine, and yet as a society we still dont give a damn much about it.

And again, I'm not going to live my life based on trusting someone else's faith. I know what I require to believe or not believe, and I have not seen it in the Bible or Christianity. I live under certain morals of what is right and wrong, I raise my children under the same morals, I just don't found it on religious principle.

And you have that right, there's no doubt about it. I never said otherwise. All i did was provide a comparison, since some of you are so certain that there is no God. thats it. i dont expect you to trust my faith any more than i expect myself to trust yours....but that doesnt mean that i am supposed to stop talking about it either. thats what this section is for. If thats a source of irritation for you, then honestly, why come to this section?

God showing Himself does NOT take away all the rest, as you suggested. You just brought up the perfect example of this--God showed Himself to this world before--and do you actually think that all the people followed Him then? There will STILL be a flip side to the coin, and there will still be people who mock, doubt, and insult. Like I said, you cannot have one without the other, at least not in this existence.

I think you made the best argument, sky. every society we unearth seems to have a Deity they worship. examples of this are gatherers, Indians, or any ancient temples found. so we can see even back then humans sensed a duality of life and looked for a God at least.

but the mechanics of your dualism applies to all thoughts, regarding an existence of god. for others in other faiths too were fooled from the very same blessings even yourself received following your own god, you see? those people wont budge to leave their faith and surely i wont expect you to leave yours yourself.

only people who would leave their faith are to be caught up later in life's eventuality cycles and got lucky receiving a blessing from their new god. I got lucky and was blessed in life when i threw away god. so why should i return? I'm blessed, you see. Thats why I know a god doesn't bless you. I'm apparently an abomination.

but of course my bornagainxtain wife may have a say about why 'her' husband is blessed. only way god can bless an abomination is if he is at least David blood line, imo.

I think you made the best argument, sky. every society we unearth seems to have a Deity they worship. examples of this are gatherers, Indians, or any ancient temples found. so we can see even back then humans sensed a duality of life and looked for a God at least.

but the mechanics of your dualism applies to all thoughts, regarding an existence of god. for others in other faiths too were fooled from the very same blessings even yourself received following your own god, you see? those people wont budge to leave their faith and surely i wont expect you to leave yours yourself.

only people who would leave their faith are to be caught up later in life's eventuality cycles and got lucky receiving a blessing from their new god. I got lucky and was blessed in life when i threw away god. so why should i return? I'm blessed, you see. Thats why I know a god doesn't bless you. I'm apparently an abomination.

but of course my bornagainxtain wife may have a say about why 'her' husband is blessed. only way god can bless an abomination is if he is at least David blood line, imo.

the problem here is one of perspective. you look upon "blessings" to mean things that happen in this life. I think of "blessings" as both things that happen in this life and what happens to you for eternity. There's the difference. you were blessed with things here--material things, or temporary things. your thinking is based entirely in this existence, in this life. Those who believe in God know that this life isnt all there is.

Without God, there is no meaning or purpose to anything, there is only decay and death; no one can honestly deny this...everything fades away, people die, the earth wears outThere is no meaning to life. You live, you reproduce, you die. Humans are aware of their mortality early on. They deal with it by either being strong and understanding that they have to enjoy and live life to it's fullest and bring happiness to those they care about in an effort to enrich their lives as well, or they submit to some silly ass faith in an omnipresence that will grant them immortality, -provided they follow the rule book.

Mark, you will die and decay, just as the rest of us, and you will be no more. The difference between you and I is that all who know you will remember that you spent your entire life dedicated to the preparation of your death, as completely selfish as that is, while those who remember me will recall what I did to make them happy.

blah blah blah blah...



-More of the same blah blah...

all the wars fought in the name of religion, including the Catholic crusades, were not in the line with the truth of GodBut all the soldiers of religious wars were every bit the zealot you are, believing that only they knew the "truth" and that everyone else was an enemy of it, and therefore them.

blah blah blah and more blah...

what if God ordained the test of life from the beginning, which includes endurance of various trials? what if life is the boot camp of eternity?So you spend your life on your fattening ass here?!
THIS is your "bootcamp" for the life hereafter?
:rofl:
That would make you one serious pussy.

I wonder if we can ever have a serious discussion here without the ubiquitous satireNot as long as you are here.

Hitler killed alot of people in the name of social Darwinism...Hitler felt that only a certain type of people were worthy of living. He was a psychopath. Kind of like you, actually.

what, then? conscience?-Setting the trap...

ahhhhh....but your views do change from time to time?-Feeling confident that the snare is tight...

...and then nothing.
(I guess it was "catch & release" day.

Exact same shit you're trying to pull on me in the Atheist thread.
You're such an idiot.

catchin up, eh Dennis?Well, yeah. It was the last two that got my attention, since you were doing exactly the same thing to me in the other thread, almost word for word.
Sad. But I'm having fun. ;)

logically

Maybe there was intelligent design but who is to say it was your god?

seriously and i'm not trying to take the piss outta anyone but isn't all religious debated boiled down to the chicken and egg debate????????

yes
egg
doesn't seem to slow anyone down

Maybe there was intelligent design but who is to say it was your god?

well, let me ask you this.....

suppose youre an atheist. I say this because i do not know and will not assume what you believe. if you believe that there is no God, and then you realize that there had to be intelligent design, at that point even if yzf is wrong about which God is the real one, arent his chances of getting it right better than yours at that point?

if you truly believe that there is no God, what then could cause intelligent design in God's place?

you're reading too much into it, I'm genuinely curious about how atheists thinkNo you're not, Mark- who are you kidding.
If you were interested at all, you would be asking more questions and wouldn't be telling us all how we think.

well, let me ask you this.....

suppose youre an atheist. I say this because i do not know and will not assume what you believe. if you believe that there is no God, and then you realize that there had to be intelligent design, at that point even if yzf is wrong about which God is the real one, arent his chances of getting it right better than yours at that point?

if you truly believe that there is no God, what then could cause intelligent design in God's place?


If I was to believe that there was no god but intelligent design then YZF's god could very well be right and true. But it is sort of like Wikipedia just because it is popular doesn't make it true.

As for what I believe I honestly don't know. I have never met "god", and I haven't died yet. I am open to all possibilities but I really doubt I be going to church on Sunday.

If I was to believe that there was no god but intelligent design then YZF's god could very well be right and true. But it is sort of like Wikipedia just because it is popular doesn't make it true.

As for what I believe I honestly don't know. I have never met "god", and I haven't died yet. I am open to all possibilities but I really doubt I be going to church on Sunday.

I honestly understand where youre coming from. But here's a thought--if you do not know what you believe, and you dont look into different beliefs to see what makes sense to you and what does not, how will you ever know what you stand for? I was raised in a protestant church as a kid, and I never felt like it was right. I went there because its where my parents went and I had no choice. When I got out on my own, I did a lot of looking around. I researched what different faiths believe and what they do not. In the end, my beliefs came to me, not the other way around, but if I did not acknowledge the fact that I needed to see what was out there, I dont think I would have realized what I found. Maybe it would be a good idea to go to a church on sunday....maybe it would put some things in perspective. there are a LOT of misconceptions about different churches, and the only way to really know right from wrong is to see for yourself and make up your own mind. it is a myth when people say that being christian means you cant have any fun, for example. That is a very common misconception that I heard even before I came to call myself Christian.

It is important to form your own beliefs in this world and to find what you feel you should follow. Otherwise, youre going to spend your life following nothing, or following something because you dont know what else is out there. And if ever there was something you dont want to get wrong, it is eternity. I give you a lot of credit for being able to admit where you are when it comes to this topic, a lot of people cannot do that no matter what they believe.

EDIT--something else. YZF's God is NOT popular. if you ask around this country, you will see that something like 80% of all Americans call themselves christians....yet most of them do not come close to being a christian. Most do not read the bible, most do not follow what God commands, most do not attend church, and most try to pick and choose which parts of 'being a christian' they want to follow and which parts just cramp their style, so to speak. spiritual beliefs should never be a buffet--where you take the parts of the bible that you like and ignore the rest. when you look at what it really means to follow God, you will see quite a small minority, actually.

a local christian radio station down here just published the results of a multi-state survey that they took. They asked a bunch of people who call themselves Christians to prioritize the 4 most important things in their lives. The top 4 answers were:

1--health
2--career
3--finances
4--family

God was not even in the top 5...which is quite contradictory to what God commands in the bible. they asked the same group of people if they considered themselves 'devout', meaning were they strong and assured in their faith in God. 60% of them said they were not. Out of this same group, over 80% didnt go to church regularly. over 90% did not read the Bible regularly. yet they call themselves Christians, but they dont do any of the things that God commands Christians to do. God is popular as long as people dont actually have to give up their own selfish desires...when they have to give things up, all of a sudden they arent interested.

take a look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, look at the history of Israel, look at how Christianity has changed the world, look how many people in 2009 are running around claiming to be Christ (as predicted)

we're not making this stuff up....forget what's popular, look at the big picture, open a Bible and let it speak to your soulWho's "we"? You're nothing but a groupie. You don't preach the gospel. You don't teach the gospel. All you do is condemn everyone around you, believing whole heartedly that you are actually better than us all. Your interactions on the Internet speak for themselves, and you're pretty much a legendary ******* on the subject of Christianity. You've been banned from Christian websites! You have a history of telling people you hope they die of cancer, and how you can hardly wait to watch others you know burn in a lake of fire for eternity. You've stated that you, personally, will be seated at the right side of GOD! -Like you're Christ himself!
How on EARTH would any sane person think you might be right? You make Christianity appear absolutely REPULSIVE.

I researched what different faiths believe and what they do not. In the end, my beliefs came to me, not the other way around... But you had a need for it. Why? It is important to form your own beliefs in this world and to find what you feel you should follow. Otherwise, youre going to spend your life following nothing, or following something because you dont know what else is out there. And if ever there was something you dont want to get wrong, it is eternity. Something stated from a completely tainted perspective- That of one who believes in an eternity, which you got from the teachings of Christianity as a child. Like Mark, you can never understand the idea of being comfortable with the idea of finality and mortality. The irony is that your belief of immortality brings with it what is to me a far more significant fear than death; eternal hell.
To me, that's crazy. According to Mark and other religious extremists like him, he is one of about four people on the face of the earth worthy of a decent life here-after. Makes the whole thing even that more laughable.


most try to pick and choose which parts of 'being a christian' they want to follow and which parts just cramp their style, so to speak. spiritual beliefs should never be a buffet--where you take the parts of the bible that you like and ignore the rest. when you look at what it really means to follow God, you will see quite a small minority, actually.{quote] I like that line. It's good. But I look at people that do that as people not striving to lick Gods ass in a selfish attempt to get into heaven. They are merely trying to better themselves by keeping grounded and humble. They are already resolved in the reality that they are not perfect and can NEVER ACTUALLY BE PERFECT ENOUGH, in accordance to the Bible. So they pick from the buffet in an effort to keep themselves compassionate.

[quote]God is popular as long as people dont actually have to give up their own selfish desires...when they have to give things up, all of a sudden they arent interested.YES! ABSOLUTELY! But that is human, and everyone does that. Those who claim to be as pure as Mark know nothing about sacrifice. What they believe they sacrifice for their faith, they make up for in other ways, like material posessions, etc.

lol @ Sky and Mark getting along.


Seriously though you guys try to keep it civil and keep the name calling to a minimum. Ok?

But you had a need for it. Why?

for a while, I didnt. I felt like it all couldnt be right--I saw people who were minsters, fighting amongst themselves with full-blown selfish pride in the normal course of attending that protestant church. I saw so many contradictions and so much hypocrisy that I knew it couldnt be right. but I guess you can say it was plain old curiousity that led me to research other beliefs. and from there, I came across the church i attend now, and things simply fit into place and a lot of questions were answered in a way that made perfect sense to me.

Something stated from a completely tainted perspective- That of one who believes in an eternity, which you got from the teachings of Christianity as a child.

OK, thats fair enough. I can see where youre coming from there, and youre right, thats my beliefs. Although i would not call that tainted, I would maybe call it biased instead.

Like Mark, you can never understand the idea of being comfortable with the idea of finality and mortality.

I disagree. it takes a lot to bring peace to someone over the issue of death and mortality. i can truly say that i am at peace with the idea that i will die someday. Now, whether I am right or wrong about what comes after that, time will tell. But no matter which way time brings me when i get there, I am still at peace with the fact that i will die someday. believe this--I have faced death before in my life...and I have never felt the peace that i feel right now about it. To a Christian, death is simply a step. Would I be correct in thinking that you believe there is nothing after death? That we live for ourselves and then it all is simply over?


The irony is that your belief of immortality brings with it what is to me a far more significant fear than death; eternal hell.

I can see where youre going there. And yes, I do fear eternal hell. But that's only half the story....


To me, that's crazy. According to Mark and other religious extremists like him, he is one of about four people on the face of the earth worthy of a decent life here-after. Makes the whole thing even that more laughable.

it is written "narrow is the path and few will find it", but i agree with you that I dont think that number will be as small as mark has claimed. Perhaps the number one trait that a Christian should have is humility, because you cannot accept instruction, discipline, or charity without it. you also cannot give charity in the right spirit without it.

I like that line. It's good. But I look at people that do that as people not striving to lick Gods ass in a selfish attempt to get into heaven. They are merely trying to better themselves by keeping grounded and humble. They are already resolved in the reality that they are not perfect and can NEVER ACTUALLY BE PERFECT ENOUGH, in accordance to the Bible. So they pick from the buffet in an effort to keep themselves compassionate.

i couldnt disagree more. they pick from the buffet so they can still claim that they follow God, but they also dont have to give up things that a Christian would have to. For example, it is in the Bible that one should tithe 10% of their earnings to the church. Well, if you dont go to church, then you arent there to give that 10%....which leaves more money for those people to spend on themselves. I love this one--"I am a christian but I am not a practicing christian".....I have heard that one so many times. it's like this--a firefighter fights fire. A football player plays football. When have you ever seen a football player that didnt ever go to the stadium on Sunday and suit up, even if he only sat on the sideline in reserve? Obviously I am not talking about someone who's injured, etc etc. But you get my meaning. If you didnt actually make jewelry, could you rightly call yourself a jeweler? how many race car drivers do you know that dont ever drive a race car? Ever see any police officers that dont ever police anything? How about hikers that never went hiking? Swimmers that dont ever get in the water? This is no different--how could someone call themself a Christian if they do not ever do what a Christian does that makes them a Christian? the Bible is the instruction manual for Christian life--if you do not follow it, how could you be a Christian?

People dont go to church, because they want to sleep in on sundays....or they dont want to miss kickoff when their team plays. Or, they would rather go fishing in the morning....take your pick--it is NOT about being compassionate--it is about being selfish.

God commands Christians to care for others. if you see someone in need, help them. If someone is hungry give them food. If someone is thirsty, give them drink. How many 'christians' in this country actually go out and help those who need it like that? If all the people in this country who claimed to be Christians--over 80% of the entire population--went out and gave that help to those who needed it, do you REALLY think we would still have homeless, starving people in this country?? think about the numbers....here is a Gallup poll from the end of 2007:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/103459/Questions-Answers-About-Americans-Religion.aspx

About 82% of Americans in 2007 told Gallup interviewers that they identified with a Christian religion.

According to this link (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFPopulation) from the Census Bureau, in 2007 there were just over 301 million people in the US. So, 82% of that is roughly 240 million people, all claiming to be christian, right?? Well....the best I could find on short notice was wikipedia, and on there, they mention a study done bu HUD. they took a one-year period and found that between 10/06 and 9/07, there were a total of about 1,600,000 people in the US that used some kind of homeless shelter. now, of course we dont have any real way of knowing exactly how many homeless people are out there, but imagine this--if you made that number TEN TIMES THAT MANY, and each 'christian' in this country went out and helped just one person, would we have ANY homeless people today? THAT, my friend, is NOT COMPASSION. it is SELFHSINESS that motivates the average person to not follow those parts of the bible.

YES! ABSOLUTELY! But that is human, and everyone does that. Those who claim to be as pure as Mark know nothing about sacrifice. What they believe they sacrifice for their faith, they make up for in other ways, like material posessions, etc.

without knowing everything about mark's life, I cannot say that he doesnt know about sacrifice. i CAN, however, say that you should not be basing your entire opinion about Christianity on any one person, be it Mark or anyone else. I agree that it is human to be selfish--we all are. but that doesnt mean we should all continue to be at all times, either. It has been said that selfishness leads to all sin....and the Bible is quite clear about how selfless a Christian is called to be. that doesnt mean a Christian has to be perfect, but it DOES mean that a Christian is one who makes the promise to God that he/she will live for something other than themself. It is not against God's law to have possessions or money--it is against God's law to have things and not give some of what you have to those who have need. There is a big difference between what many perceive about Christianity and the reality of the Bible. and you will never know this if you base your opinion on one person's posts in here.

lol @ Sky and Mark getting along.


Seriously though you guys try to keep it civil and keep the name calling to a minimum. Ok?

me thinks youre bored in this section now, lullzzzzerzzzz.....

lol @ Sky and Mark getting along.

its a welcome break. and i do stress break.

-Yes, I should've said "biased" instead of "tainted". Tainted implies ruined.

Like Mark, you can never understand the idea of being comfortable with the idea of finality and mortality.I wasn't speaking about the fear of dying, I was speaking about the fear of being dead, gone, buried, with nothing afterwards.

The people picking at the buffet that I'm reffering to are the paritioners in my own church. None of them are perfect Christians, but they all go every Sunday. I'm not talking about the poll numbers, here. I'm talking about all the self-proclaimed "Truth" crusaders out there who can't keep their fucking mouths shut about their faith and insist on imposing it upon everyone else. (I really do hate them. Really.) These are the right to lifers, the Ann Coulters, the Bible thumping psychpaths that insist on trying to make our democratic government into a Christian agenda driven democratic theocracy.
...But anyway-

I think the people picking at the buffet are good people. They don't get in everyone's face about their faith.

With regards to the tithe, FUCK THAT! I am NOT sending 10% of my earnings to ANY church. EVER. That's BULLSHIT! I don't care who says what about it, either. No friggin way! That alone is enough to kill the credibility of the Bible for me.

I wasn't speaking about the fear of dying, I was speaking about the fear of being dead, gone, buried, with nothing afterwards.

I actually dont have such a fear. One, because I believe so strongly that there is something after this life that i have no doubt. doubt or uncertainty are required for fear to exist, and I dont doubt it for a second. also, I have said this several times before, if i am wrong about heaven and hell, if there is nothing after this life, then what have I lost by living the way i do? NOTHING. I will have lived a better life, been a better father and husband, and helped people around me have better lives too. I am not missing out on anything I have not already had in my life--quite the opposite actually. I have lived for myself plenty--and it didnt get me anything. I had a nice house, several cars, a good income, a career i loved...and it was all empty because it was all i had. back then I was so busy being about me that I didnt notice a whole lot about life. I lived for myself before....and you couldnt give me anything to make me go back there again. Granted, that is just my belief and opinion, but thats what i see. At the end of this life, when you live for yourself, nothing you have achieved, nothing you have owned, no amount of money will do anything for you. Even if there were no heaven or hell, at the end of my life I will have peace and I will have helped others to have a better life. I will have been a better husband and father, and I have no problem at all with that.

The people picking at the buffet that I'm reffering to are the paritioners in my own church. None of them are perfect Christians, but they all go every Sunday.

Trust me on this--there are no perfect christians. none, anywhere, in any church, period. we are all sinners...."for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...."

hey, you go to a church? I never knew that about you....a christian church?

I'm not talking about the poll numbers, here. I'm talking about all the self-proclaimed "Truth" crusaders out there who can't keep their fucking mouths shut about their faith and insist on imposing it upon everyone else.

I personally have no problem with people sharing their faith. I think it is more the delivery than the message. Too many people try to cram their faith down other peoples' throats, and that is not the way. it is not the way God instructed, it is not the way Jesus taught, and it is plain and simple not what the Bible says to do. Thats more than good enough for me, that I do not believe in cramming my faith at others like that. the Bible actually sees Jesus teaching the disciples about teaching and sharing their faith with others. it sees Jesus ordering the Great Commission of all christians. it sees God instructing people to show others with their lives what it means to follow Jesus, and not by shouting it at them with contempt.

(I really do hate them. Really.) These are the right to lifers, the Ann Coulters, the Bible thumping psychpaths that insist on trying to make our democratic government into a Christian agenda driven democratic theocracy.

Christians carry as ordered by God the task of teaching others, of reaching out to people who dont know Jesus and spreading the Word. but as I said, I dont believe in forcing it upon people--people throughout history have never taken well to having things forced upon them by others. Even if they obeyed, they did so without the desire to follow Christ. and that is a necessary part of the equation--thats why the Bible doesnt show one example of a child being baptized into Christ, because it is a decision that one can only rightly make when they are old enough to contemplate what they will be required to do as a Christian.


I think the people picking at the buffet are good people. They don't get in everyone's face about their faith.

Well, our opinions are of course shaped by our experiences, and if you've had a lot of people shoving their faith at you, then I can certainly understand what youre saying. but please-consider the fact that you have seen the wrong way, not what God has really commanded. Do not let the wrong way spoil any opinion you can have about christianity. look for the right way instead.


With regards to the tithe, FUCK THAT! I am NOT sending 10% of my earnings to ANY church. EVER. That's BULLSHIT! I don't care who says what about it, either. No friggin way! That alone is enough to kill the credibility of the Bible for me.

Well, think about it. you go to a church, right? Who pays the bills? how does your church have electricity? water? What about the building itself--does the church have a loan on the building that they are still paying off? what about the supplies that the church uses? let's look further, into the work that a church does in the community. feeding the hungry? Food banks? Any programs around the holidays for the homeless or elderly? Where do you think the money for all of that comes from? Blankets for the homeless, things like that? Charity work? how about any missions work or planting churches in other towns? All of these things take MONEY and churches are non-profit organizations. Where else do you think that money comes from?

Consider in the bible--in the book of Acts--Peter has just told the people that the one they killed really was the son of God. the realization has just hit the crowd about what they have done. In Acts 2:38, Peter tells them to repent and be baptized and they will be forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit. About 3,000 of the people did that day. Look at the next part:

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

These people were so strong in their faith that they gave up everything they had to care for those who had need. but God isnt asking you to give up everything youve got--He is asking for you to give a rather small percentage so that others can be taken care of. Think about this--i am not talking about giving money so that a pastor can drive a new Lexus. I am talking about a church giving to support itself and the work it does in the community to serve God. None of that is free. The pastor at my church drives a 1996 Dodge pickup truck....he and his family certainly arent getting rich off of our tithing. But our church is always doing things in our community. when gustav and ike came into the gulf, our church bought a ton of bottled water, food and tarps and handed them out to anyone in the town that needed it. This is the mark of a genuine church--the town does not support us financially. We dont get grant money or anything. Our church family supports the church on our own. When people could not get out to come to our church and get supplies, members of our church went to them and brought what they needed. This is just one example of why that serves a legitimate purpose.

actually there is nothing in the NT about a number, it just says to give...10% was required in the Old Covenant

well, Jesus does refer to giving a tenth in His parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector....

Luke 18:9-14

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

If Jesus says it, it's good enough for me.

Also, in Hebrews 7, it is stated that one tenth is to be collected:

4Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.

that clearly is not talking about old testament times.

I actually dont have such a fear. One, because I believe so strongly that there is something after this life that i have no doubt. doubt or uncertainty are required for fear to exist, and I dont doubt it for a second. also, I have said this several times before, if i am wrong about heaven and hell, if there is nothing after this life, then what have I lost by living the way i do? NOTHING. I will have lived a better life, been a better father and husband, and helped people around me have better lives too. I am not missing out on anything I have not already had in my life--quite the opposite actually. I have lived for myself plenty--and it didnt get me anything. I had a nice house, several cars, a good income, a career i loved...and it was all empty because it was all i had. back then I was so busy being about me that I didnt notice a whole lot about life. I lived for myself before....and you couldnt give me anything to make me go back there again. Granted, that is just my belief and opinion, but thats what i see. At the end of this life, when you live for yourself, nothing you have achieved, nothing you have owned, no amount of money will do anything for you. Even if there were no heaven or hell, at the end of my life I will have peace and I will have helped others to have a better life. I will have been a better husband and father, and I have no problem at all with that. Yeah-yeah... But my point (for which this segment keeps digressing, I feel) is just that you don't have that fear "anymore" (so to speak) because you've come to terms with your mortality with the aid of faith in an afterlife.
The rest of what you're saying is true, though anyone who has faced death as many times as you have (or even once, like me) has to come to that epiphany on his own irregardless of his faith or lacj=k there of, lest he be a completely shallow moron.
How come I, a person who does not have (the) faith, feels the same way you described with regards to living life selfishly?
-And then, that does bring me round full circle once again to religious zealotry in which I believe that such persons are living their lives selfishly as they are ONLY concerned with doing what they must in order to get into heaven. Again I point to Mark because he is, after all, our resident religious zealot, whether he likes it or not (he chooses to stay on his own accord). He is competitive in his efforts to please God soley for that reason.
(Boy. This part of the discussion just keeps going all over the place!)

Trust me on this--there are no perfect christians. none, anywhere, in any church, period. we are all sinners...."for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...."I know this. There can never be perfection in man, either physically or mentally, and I consider "spiritually" to be a part of the latter.

hey, you go to a church? I never knew that about you....a christian church?Yes, as of two years ago. As I said, I do it for my child because it would be selfish of me as a father and a man to deprive her of the church and teachings of Jesus. I even helped organize the Sunday school, and since the church is right across the street, I donate my time working around the grounds in the summer and the winter. I'm one of two young, able bodied men (everything is relative, so shut up! ;) ) who can do the chores.
My daughter has captured everyone with her charm, and she often gets to ring the bell.
Inside, the teachings are very liberal, totally unacceptable by Mark's standards (and my mother's), but there is no forced fear factor. It's very comfortable.

I personally have no problem with people sharing their faith. I think it is more the delivery than the message. Too many people try to cram their faith down other peoples' throats, and that is not the way. it is not the way God instructed, it is not the way Jesus taught, and it is plain and simple not what the Bible says to do. Thats more than good enough for me, that I do not believe in cramming my faith at others like that. the Bible actually sees Jesus teaching the disciples about teaching and sharing their faith with others. it sees Jesus ordering the Great Commission of all christians. it sees God instructing people to show others with their lives what it means to follow Jesus, and not by shouting it at them with contempt.You know I've stated exactly that, many times in the past here. There's a difference between someone sharing their faith, and someone asserting their faith.
Personally, I hate those that assert their faith so much that I'd rather never hear the sharing if it meant I didn't have to endure the asserting.

Christians carry as ordered by God the task of teaching others, of reaching out to people who dont know Jesus and spreading the Word. but as I said, I dont believe in forcing it upon people--people throughout history have never taken well to having things forced upon them by others. Even if they obeyed, they did so without the desire to follow Christ. and that is a necessary part of the equation--thats why the Bible doesnt show one example of a child being baptized into Christ, because it is a decision that one can only rightly make when they are old enough to contemplate what they will be required to do as a Christian.Yes.

Well, our opinions are of course shaped by our experiences, and if you've had a lot of people shoving their faith at you, then I can certainly understand what youre saying. but please-consider the fact that you have seen the wrong way, not what God has really commanded. Do not let the wrong way spoil any opinion you can have about christianity. look for the right way instead.I do not feel any void in my life. And of what little I do know of the Bible, I see as hidious, both in it's brutality and in it's personal injustice to people.
It's simply not for me. But I'm not a crusader against Christianity. I'm angry that my government is influenced so deeply by it, and thus my personal, civil rights are limited in accordance with it. I'm angry that part of the angenda of this cultures "Christian buffet pickers" prioritizes greed over environmental conservation. I'm angry that the whole is enveloped in such tradgedy, all due to religious differences.
It would be unfair to "socialize" religion so there were no differences, and differences would eventually cultivate new "orders" of religion anyway because man just has an engrained need to kill each other. But if religion was eliminated all together, we'd have far less to fight over.
...Imagine all that energy going into something good, like saving the planet from our destruction.

Well, think about it. you go to a church, right? Who pays the bills? how does your church have electricity? water? What about the building itself--does the church have a loan on the building that they are still paying off? what about the supplies that the church uses? let's look further, into the work that a church does in the community. feeding the hungry? Food banks? Any programs around the holidays for the homeless or elderly? Where do you think the money for all of that comes from? Blankets for the homeless, things like that? Charity work? how about any missions work or planting churches in other towns? All of these things take MONEY and churches are non-profit organizations. Where else do you think that money comes from? We all give every Sunday. The church is tax deductable. The building and grounds are 150 years old (paid for). We've built a thrift shop to help pay for the pastors trips to India where he and his wife spend time at a girl's school and village.

Consider in the bible--in the book of Acts--Peter has just told the people that the one they killed really was the son of God. the realization has just hit the crowd about what they have done. In Acts 2:38, Peter tells them to repent and be baptized and they will be forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit. About 3,000 of the people did that day. Look at the next part:



These people were so strong in their faith that they gave up everything they had to care for those who had need. but God isnt asking you to give up everything youve got--He is asking for you to give a rather small percentage so that others can be taken care of. Think about this--i am not talking about giving money so that a pastor can drive a new Lexus. I am talking about a church giving to support itself and the work it does in the community to serve God. None of that is free. The pastor at my church drives a 1996 Dodge pickup truck....he and his family certainly arent getting rich off of our tithing. But our church is always doing things in our community. when gustav and ike came into the gulf, our church bought a ton of bottled water, food and tarps and handed them out to anyone in the town that needed it. This is the mark of a genuine church--the town does not support us financially. We dont get grant money or anything. Our church family supports the church on our own. When people could not get out to come to our church and get supplies, members of our church went to them and brought what they needed. This is just one example of why that serves a legitimate purpose.We all donate to a group of charities that all the different churches in town work together on. Every month there's something different called for, and it's usually something very small asked, which makes giving much more all that much easier to do.
Demanding charity is no way to get it. -Just like love, which is also what God seems to do.

Yeah-yeah... But my point (for which this segment keeps digressing, I feel) is just that you don't have that fear "anymore" (so to speak) because you've come to terms with your mortality with the aid of faith in an afterlife.
The rest of what you're saying is true, though anyone who has faced death as many times as you have (or even once, like me) has to come to that epiphany on his own irregardless of his faith or lacj=k there of, lest he be a completely shallow moron.
How come I, a person who does not have (the) faith, feels the same way you described with regards to living life selfishly?
-And then, that does bring me round full circle once again to religious zealotry in which I believe that such persons are living their lives selfishly as they are ONLY concerned with doing what they must in order to get into heaven. Again I point to Mark because he is, after all, our resident religious zealot, whether he likes it or not (he chooses to stay on his own accord). He is competitive in his efforts to please God soley for that reason.
(Boy. This part of the discussion just keeps going all over the place!)

OK, I see what you mean there. But you have to admit it is still a real gamble in human terms--to put so much belief into an idea that no one has solid proof of. There would still be much to fear, even for those who believe--what if you die, and your wife or children arent saved? you would never get to see them again. that is a very human fear....I also dont have that fear. I cannot say that the fear of dying has been replaced with the belief of eternal life because death still will not be a pleasant experience, i am sure....but i do understand where youre coming from.

Yes, as of two years ago. As I said, I do it for my child because it would be selfish of me as a father and a man to deprive her of the church and teachings of Jesus. I even helped organize the Sunday school, and since the church is right across the street, I donate my time working around the grounds in the summer and the winter. I'm one of two young, able bodied men (everything is relative, so shut up! ;) ) who can do the chores.
My daughter has captured everyone with her charm, and she often gets to ring the bell.
Inside, the teachings are very liberal, totally unacceptable by Mark's standards (and my mother's), but there is no forced fear factor. It's very comfortable.

that is interesting, you think the Bible is hideous, yet you want your daughter to learn from it. That is kinda hard for me to understand--I can see why you want your daughter to have the chance to learn, but that cannot be easy to do for you.

You know I've stated exactly that, many times in the past here. There's a difference between someone sharing their faith, and someone asserting their faith.
Personally, I hate those that assert their faith so much that I'd rather never hear the sharing if it meant I didn't have to endure the asserting.

I know, I just dont see any positive result of ramming your faith at others. Even in the Bible, God commands Christians to reach out to people, and if no one listens to you, "shake the dust off your feet as you leave that town". People who force their faith upon others are not doing God's work in any way. But whats funny is that I am here, just talking with you about faith, and there doesnt seem to be any problem with that. i dont know why people just dont get it.

I do not feel any void in my life. And of what little I do know of the Bible, I see as hidious, both in it's brutality and in it's personal injustice to people.

There is more injustice from man to man in the bible than any other kind. I firmly believe that we reap what we sow, and so if I ignore the warnings that God has provided, then I am walking into a consequence that I brought upon myself. the Bible is filled with people who kill each other, steal from each other, cheat on their wives, etc etc etc. There is a lot of pride, jealousy, envy, dishonesty in there, but that is from man to man. it is not God doing that. You can bring up things like the flood, and even then, God started over because the people of the earth became a wicked bunch that showed no respect for Him. It wasnt even people saying "I dont believe in God"....it was the actions of people.

It's simply not for me. But I'm not a crusader against Christianity. I'm angry that my government is influenced so deeply by it, and thus my personal, civil rights are limited in accordance with it. I'm angry that part of the angenda of this cultures "Christian buffet pickers" prioritizes greed over environmental conservation. I'm angry that the whole is enveloped in such tradgedy, all due to religious differences.
It would be unfair to "socialize" religion so there were no differences, and differences would eventually cultivate new "orders" of religion anyway because man just has an engrained need to kill each other. But if religion was eliminated all together, we'd have far less to fight over.
...Imagine all that energy going into something good, like saving the planet from our destruction.

This touches on something i brought up in an earlier thread--no matter what religion you follow, there still cannot be good without evil. there is never an up without a down, an in without an out....right? so, no matter how much "good" could be done with that effort, it is human nature to be selfish anyways. I agree with what youre saying, but I believe that this world is temporary. It isnt something we can 'save'. it is not meant to be here forever. that doesnt mean i think we should say screw it, but I think the concept of "save the whales" and 'save the trees' and 'save the rainforest' are just a bit too idealistic. Think about it--what if God intends for this earth to be temporary? if you then spend your life's work trying to go against that, how successful will you be? and then, how much REAL good could you have done with that time and effort?

I do agree with you about the greed.....it doesnt matter who gets into office, it seems like the same things happen regardless...


We all give every Sunday. The church is tax deductable. The building and grounds are 150 years old (paid for). We've built a thrift shop to help pay for the pastors trips to India where he and his wife spend time at a girl's school and village.

We all donate to a group of charities that all the different churches in town work together on. Every month there's something different called for, and it's usually something very small asked, which makes giving much more all that much easier to do.
Demanding charity is no way to get it. -Just like love, which is also what God seems to do.

So, it isnt the giving, but the amount that youre questioning? A lot of churches hold to the 10% idea. I can also tell you that giving should be done with a joyful heart, so a lot of times you will hear someone say something like "give what is on your heart to give". And that makes some sense--because giving 10% simply because the law says you should is legalistic and not what God commanded anyways.

man, i learned more about you in the last day than I did in the last three years......

This Thread Just Turned Gay

Why? You wanted to know so badly, Mark. At least, that's what you always claim.
But that's not really what it's all about for you, is it? You couldn't care less what anyone else thinks.

Relax, czarofar. We'll have plenty of opportunity to get gay with one another later. ;)

Relax, czarofar. We'll have plenty of opportunity to get gay with one another later. ;)

Oh? I suppose touching penises is the standard with you two Indians but I side with yZF in this regard.

Oh. Well in that case, why don't you go blow Mark? :)

Oh. Well in that case, why don't you go blow Mark? :)

naw, I'm sure he rather have 95pep's fat, divorced-thrown-away-xtain-chicks instead. besides, id make a bad cawk sucka. Now you are doing swell with your new boy friend. hope it all works out. ill carve yas out a pipe. maybe help you two smoke some tabaky too. yummy.

naw, I'm sure he rather have 95pep's fat, divorced-thrown-away-xtain-chicks instead. besides, id make a bad cawk sucka. Now you are doing swell with your new boy friend. hope it all works out. ill carve yas out a pipe. maybe help you two smoke some tabaky too. yummy.Oh how redneck whigger you be! You wear you pants halfway down your ass and your oversized baseball cap sideways, too?(Don't you know that shit died in the 90s?)

I wanted to know what atheits think about ultimate questions, I could care less about your marriage ceremony and other random off-topic detailsWell, I found conversing with Jon, someone that I have a history of despising just as much as you, so much more intellectually stimulating.
You're just, well, ...really fucking boring, Mark.

Oh how redneck whigger you be! You wear you pants halfway down your ass and your oversized baseball cap sideways, too?([i]Don't you know that shit died in the 90s?
oh shit! now i no

Ehh, just turn it around, pull 'em up, and pronounce your Ts, and you'll be feeling back to good in no time.

I had no extra-spiritual encounter in the lodge, but I was honored to be part of what I knew was a dying part of history. From a purely historical perspective, it really was pretty cool. That's why I wrote my boring account with such exuberance.
I came out of the experience just as much the asshole as when I went into it. Just figured I'd share it, since it's the most "religious" experience I've encountered.

But for you czarofzar, I'll try not to go into such detail in the future.

Ah don’t worry about me. And I am not knocking on your experience at the lodge. I also would have been thrilled being there as well. Experiencing something like that is really hard to explain. I now can recognize emotional experience and that is all it is. Emotional. And I tie emotion with any god experience. But that’s why I am not a religious person for that reason. Religion wants you to make choices based on emotion. Maybe you are the same way.

Yeah. Logic fucking rulzes.

These five threads even mentioning morals; -they all went down the shitter quick because they needed a precursory thread separating morals from emotion and faith, and a clear definition of (and what cultivates, governs and effects) the human concience.

I'd start a thread, but I'm tired.