for those who claimed that salvation was never made available to all.....explain...

Titus 2

For those who said that salvation has absolutely nothing to do with anything but God's grace, explain this:

2 Peter 1:10-11

Here, we see Peter telling the people that THEY are to do things to MAKE THEIR ELECTION CERTAIN. But how could that be possible according to those that claim differently? Was Peter being truthful there, or was he talking nonsense, when he told them to work to make sure that they would be called to the elect?

Then, he tells them IF YOU DO THESE THINGS YOU WILL BE WELCOMED INTO THE KINGDOM. Again, what things could a man do to get there? Some of you have said that there is only one part to salvation, and that is God's grace. But I submit to you that there are in fact two things--

1--God offers His grace to "all mankind", just as the Bible says
2--that grace must be accepted with belief.

Just as the Bible says, God causes the sun to rise over the wicked as well as the righteous, no? I think that some of you are confusing the concept of predestination here. I never doubted that the chosen are already known to God, but what I have also said is that God knows every choice we will make before we make it. Therefore, OF COURSE He will know ahead of time who will be in Heaven! He knows ahead of time who will believe and who will not!

Finally, the whole concept of "how do you think someone can believe, if not because of grace?" is ridiculous as an argument. This is simply because of the fact that EVERYTHING we do is only because God created us in tha fashion. We can only sin because God created us to be imperfect creatures. So that is a weak argument at best.

Those that are being ignored for good reason need not respond. It's really disgusting when some people hold MacArthur up on this giant pedestal like he can do no wrong, but as soon as MacArthur preaches something that they are arguing against, they have absolutely nothing relevant to say about his words....so those individuals can simply skip over this thread, thanks.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

...

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

ah, another conflict in the bible. thx boys!

lol good one sky

nope, another clear conflict. good find mark

what conflict would that be?

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

My word study on election. This list is not exhaustive.

Whole books addressed to the Elect/Saints:
Romans
2nd Corinthians
Ephesians
Philippians
1st Thessalonians (1:4)
2nd Thessalonians?
1st Peter
2nd Peter
2nd John
Jude

Matthew 22:14
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

John 1:12-13:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 6:38-39
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:44 repeated in 65
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 17:1-3
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:6-9
6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

John 17:24
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 1:7
To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-13
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:14-18
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 11:4-8
4 And what was God's answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”

2 Corinthians 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:1-14:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession–to the praise of his glory.

Election study part 2.

Ephesians 2:1-9
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Philippians 1:1-2
1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

1Thessalonians 1:4-5
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:8-10
So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life–not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

2 Timothy 2:8-10
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1-3
1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness– 2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Titus 3:3-7
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

1 Peter 5:10
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

2 Peter 3:1
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. (Supports that 2 Peter is written to the elect)

2 John 1:1-3
1 The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth–and not I only, but also all who know the truth– 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever: 3 Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.

Jude 1:1-2
1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: 2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

Isaiah 46:8-11
8“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

Psalms 33:11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Does God know or does he not know who gets saved? If he does not know who gets saved, then he is not God.

If God knows who gets saved AND if all those verses supporting God electing the redeemed actually mean what the text says, then how is salvation available to those who are not elected?

The question requires another look at the verses supporting the idea that salvation is available to all. And those verses MUST re-expain the list I have composed.

Perhaps youre misinterpreting the concept of predestined. It has been said that God knows what our hearts contain before we draw breath, that He knows what choices we all will make before we make them. Imagine, for a minute, that "predestined" means that He knows who will choose to believe in the calling and who will not. And then, imagine that those whom He already knows ahead of time will believe, are then chosen for eternal life. The CHOICE could already have been made based on the fact that He would already know who would follow Him and who would not! Jesus said "Come, follow me", and the only ones who were chosen were people who FOLLOWED.

how about the story of the sinner, the woman in the pharisee's house that wiped the feet of Jesus with her hair? What did Jesus say to her?

LUKE 7

Did He say "predestination has saved you"??? YOUR FAITH...think hard about this for a minute.


There is another simple fact here--

"Many are called, but few are chosen."

If God already knew who was coming to heaven because those people were the only ones specifically created for that purpose, then WHY would "many" be called? Not one verse that you posted deals with this fact. There would have been no need at all to call "many" if the elect were created for that purpose and everyone else was created already doomed to hell--unless belief was part of the equation, and nothing you have posted deals with this. So, let's stop the tail-chase here--I NEVER indicated that God didnt know who the chosen were, and yet youre still asking that, still harping on it, still pretending I tried to make that point when I never did. Focus on the FACTS here. If what you say is true, then EVERYONE who was called would also have been chosen. If they were not on the list, then they would never have been called, would they? Calling even one person that cannot possibly be chosen is false--is our God false? Didnt think so.

1--"For many are called, but few are chosen"

2--"For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind. "

3--"Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

These are all from the Bible. Not one of them goes against the idea that God predestined the chosen. Not one of them claims that He doesnt know who they are. BUT--they ALL show that God bestowed His grace upon us NOT ONLY in the fact that some are chosen, but ALSO in the fact that we have the choice to BELIEVE and THEREFORE be among the chosen.

Why else would Peter be telling those people in Titus to "make their calling and election sure"?? If man had absolutely nothing to do with this process, HOW COULD A MAN DO ANYTHING TO MAKE HIS ELECTION SURE? But there it is, word for word! And remember, "all scripture is God-breathed....", right?

So, you posted a laundry list of scriptures, none of which refute what I am saying. I post scriptures myself, that prove that grace is bestowed in more ways than just the election itself. Why would the Bible--"all scripture is God-breathed"--say that salvation was offered to ALL MANKIND if it werent true?

Finally, since everyone's so high on MacArthur, why wont anyone talk about him now? He not only believes exactly what I am saying to be true, but he admittedly preaches it himself. Where is all the talk about how long and hard he studied the Bible, for 40 hours a week, for 40 years, now? You guys are all so high on proclaiming him such the expert, but all of a sudden youre so certain that EVEN HE is wrong simply because of your own misinterpretation?

Bottom line--none of the verses you posted state that belief cannot be a part of the equation. Not a single one of those verses says that God created the elect specifically to be elect. The Bible DOES, in fact, say that man was created in His image. It doesnt say that some men were programmed to be elect and others were programmed to never believe. We all are given the choice to turn away from the world or to turn away from Him. It is so clearly stated that "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish". And in each and every case where someone is shown as having been saved, one of two things is ALWAYS said about them--it either says one or both of the following:

1--that they believed, and/or
2--that their faith has saved them.

Do you deny this?

Tell you what--you show me the scriptures that say that someone believed, but was turned away. Show me those. I asked it before, but no one seems to be able to provide any. I see people saying "believing isnt enough...." but there is not one example in the whole Bible where someone believed, and therefore submitted to God, and was turned away in the end. Not ONE. Yet, if that were the case, is there really any doubt that God would have said that?

John 14:2

"In my father's house there are many rooms. If it were not so I would not have told you."

If it were not so, would the Lord have told us anyways, that "whosoever believes shall not perish"?

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

"God is not willing that any should perish" If you're referring to 2Peter3:9, you're using it out of context. The verse actually supports election because Peter is speaking to the elect in this book.

I can't commit to reading anything for 18 months. I'm still in the middle of Grudem's Systematic and I've got about 25 more books after this to read.

another excellent conflict of the bible. keep stepping

I didn't blow off your request, I just can't commit to reading anything. I spent a month reading Tofu's book last year and I'm really behind. Actually, since 2 of us read it, why don't you read Copernicus and the Jews and we'll all have something to discuss.


'uppity stuff about Election', ha. I know you're kidding me. Are you calling me an offline stalker/watcher?

Oh sure, blame the Jews :P

__________________
The blog: Tofuball's Worklog

Read The Bible - it's the Word of God.

Here is the core problem. Everything else you've said flows from your failure to see this point. You place man in the role of soveriegn over God.

God can't be God if he is relying on your choice to make his decision.