for those who claimed that salvation was never made available to all.....explain...

Nothing could be further from the truth, bx....I did no such thing and nothing that I said comes anywhere near that concept.

God bestows His mercy and grace upon those whom He chooses to put it upon, in His time and in the manner which He chooses...that makes HIM the sovereign one, dont you think?? Your claim has NOTHING to do with the idea that we must believe in Him to receive what He has offered. I NEVER put man above God--but the fact is that we must believe in Him to complete the equation. If I was saying that man was above God, then I would have claimed that God didnt need to offer His grace first, and that is NOT what I said. Remember, I told you this--salvation requires two things to happen in this order:

1--God's grace is shown--the "many are called"...

2--we must believe in Him--the "few are chosen"...

SCripture backs me on this---nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without God first calling them. Likewise, nowhere in the Bible is anyone saved without them then believing. Go look at every example and you will find that this is true.

How does it put man above God to say that when He offers His mercy that we must be willing to receive it? You are misinterpreting what I have posted and youre apparently not getting the idea that I believe and have said that God must offer His mercy FIRST, which puts Him squarely in charge, no? But thats the whole point--salvation is made available to "all mankind" according to chapter and verse. WHO made it available to all mankind...was it MAN? Nope, it was GOD, through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus. Therein lies the flaw of your whole argument on this--you made an assumption that was something I not only never claimed, but have repeatedly claimed the opposite of--where did I say that MAN made salvation available to mankind?

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"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

I happen to believe with sky with this as the apposing predestination confines God....thus God could not be all powerful...it placed God in a box.

Yes we are all called by his grace, but he leaves the choice of salvation to us.
How many times have we seen the misquoted....
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

One thing about this is that this passage alone alludes to predestination in itself, but of you take it in context with the passage and the parable in whole:

Matthew 22:1-14, NIV

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”


You can see above the invitation was given to many, but they chose not to show....but then the invitation is sent out to EVERYONE. Not just a select few.

This is proof in Gods word alone that predestination is not true, that all that hear are called and invited to join Him, not just a few elect.

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If we chose God, why does he then chose us? What's point? Unless he didn't know and his choice is to reward. This fundamentally a works-based view.

The Bible already tells us that no one chooses God.

Do you guys (95 and Sky) think that the Bible doesn't mean what it says when it says that people are not seeking God? Psalm 14:2.

Read a book that compares these theologies.

the higher view of god is death and destruction. ask lot

Whats the difference between choosing and seeking God....is that your point?
Apples and oranges.

You fail to make a point here.
I can seek God, but never dhoose to follow Him. See the differance.

As for YZFs point I bring up what McA's point of what is written in the bible is written in the bible, plain and simple. Jesus used the parable above and explicitly say that everyone is invited....not just the elect. Plain and simple.

Carnal/warped minds.....I swear, we all have sin in our lives. Get off your high horse cause you're no better than any of us. In fact, the belief that you are better only puts you in the warped category.

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Read a book? I do....dont you? It's called the BIBLE. And nothing I said from that book was incorrectly posted. Why should you look past the Bible--"all scripture is God-breathed"-- in favor of a book written by A FLAWED MAN, and showing that flawed man's own interpretation? Why would you place more value upon that for understanding than upon the Word itself?

Then again, you still are misconstruing what I have said....so you ask this:

So, to answer this question, I will simply repeat what I said in my earlier post--in other words, this was already addressed, and here you are still asking the same question as if it werent.....here goes--are you ready this time?

And--

And no, it is NOT a "works-based view". It is the truth as written in the scriptures. Works-based means that we achieve it all on our own--but like I keep telling you, the offer of salvation in itself is required FIRST--and that can only come from God, no?

I am still waiting to hear someone discuss the fact that one of the most highly-educated Bible students of our time, John MacArthur, agrees with exactly what I am saying here. Its really ridiculous how you gusy hold him up on such a pedestal all the time--UNTIL NOW. Suddenly, no one has anything to say about his "40 hours for 40 years"?

Finally, you want to ask if I think the Bible "doesnt mean what it says".....do YOU think it doesnt mean what it says when we read:


--in other words, the grace was a gift from God, but THROUGH FAITH in that grace we are saved! NOT by the works of a man, but by GOD'S GRACE combined with FAITH IN THAT GRACE.

To ALL who believe in His name--not to those whom were created with only that possibility.

How about this one? Its also from your list, like some of those above....

WHO was predestined?? The ones that He FOREKNEW. The ones that He KNEW would believe even before they drew their first breath. This doesnt support your claim--it supports mine, that those who accept the gift of God's grace are chosen by God. To "foreknow" means to know ahead of time. The ones that God KNEW AHEAD OF TIME would believe through faith were chosen. It's scripture, bx....it isnt like I am making these things up!

Finally, one more example....

If the elect were predestined COMPLETELY without man's involvement at all, then why would Jesus have commanded this? Why would ANYONE need to seek out the lost and work to deliver them to Him? An elect cannot fall away, right? So why would anyone need to go out into the world and obey the Great Commission? Wouldnt those who were 'elect' by default find their way to God, since no elect can be lost? Why would the disciples need to "make disciples of all nations"? The goal of a christian is to seek and save the lost--but an elect CANNOT EVER BE LOST.....This contradicts completely with the fact that Jesus said "one must be born again".

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

Thats the 'true Scotsman' argument, and it wont work here YZF....its a fallacy on logic.


By you attributing to John 3 what the true elect are, then it must be true that only the elect are born of the spirit. But this scripture does nothing of the sort....there is nothing of the 'true elect' even mentioned....more importantly it does say who the called ones are.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit"


I suggest that you meditate on that, there real calling of who is with God and in his kingdom.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You just got schooled.

ignored....when you fail you always revert to the personal attacts....and you are comparing apples to oranges.


Adding again to the bible what isnt there...I suggest that you listen to your OWN POSTS BY McA THEN..."The bible says what it says and means what it means" There is no implied with the elect.....again its the true Scotsman argument....read it, learn it, quit asserting it.

Dude...come on man.....do you actually listen to the crap you post?

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i was born again. im going to heaven. sweet

probably the dumest thing jesus ever said. the people at that time must have been very dumb. I would bet a million doallars that the dumbest mexican of today is smarter than the jesus of yesterday.

^^^ LOL at yzfs house of cards crumbling. Attack wiki! Thats it! nothing on there is true, even though YZF has posted from there. Whats funniy is his attack on wiki is the 'true scotsman' argument. LOL he just himself.

Notice how again he posts something out of context to attack then he follows up that he is justifying his attack by his second post with scripture. tsk, tsk

No, no , no.....its not going to work this time.

Stay on topic, yzf....lets here a true rebuttal on this, not some have baked, personal, discredit everything, burn the world approach..... LOL, FAIL!

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Go ahead and live your lie then....just pointing out the error in your logic, approach, and follow-up.

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jesus fucking christ

lol did you see that pic i posted mark?

again, I bring up flaws in your reasoning, and you go on some wild ass tangent attacking me, instead of the issue.

What a huge baby you've become. You cry consistently about threads being off topic and you pull this crap?

WTF, mark....are you really that much of a jerk? Because I've played nicely, brought up some good points, defended my position in this thread and every single post you attack personally. Can you not see how that makes you into a shit streak?

Jeez, grow up there Mark.

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