for those who claimed that salvation was never made available to all.....explain...

grow up mark. yer ignores and oft topic

why do you think I put him on ignore? Simple--because he never will grow up. Why even bother posting to the guy anymore? You know you'll never get anywhere with someone so prideful that he would rather sin knowingly than admit his mistake.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

LOL not once does he state anything about the 'Elect'. Its a fallacy filter that you read everything thru.

His point is that even when hearing Gods words people choose not to be saved, and that some are spoken to where they are saved.

But then Gods steps in to a few get the message a little bit more deeper, greater than that of an epiphany....that isnt an 'Elect' as you place it, its the difference between speaking to the mind and speaking to the heart.....its the beginning of a discerning voice of all things. Go read about when the Holy Spirit descended in Corr.....


But I'm taking Sky's advise and you are going on ignore. I cant stand that you act like spoiled little brat because no one listens to your tripe....so you can take all of that hatred and mean spirited liberal crap live with it.....my advice...go concentrate on what the Lords prayer means.

adios!

(LOL I'll bet you'll even respond to this ....like the fool you are, but I'll NEVER see it!)

__________________

five bucks says that he still posts his usual nonsense to me, knowing that I have him ignored....

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

The basis of your point is flawed. God tells us that he gives men gifts to teach. This gift, which you would ignore because you don't believe God or are just ignorant, is typically manifested in books. There is nothing wrong with reading books as long as you don't elevate them over the Bible. You, however have overlooked this verse to justify yourself. But I think you are a hypocrite anyway because I doubt you've studied the Bible without being influenced by some pastor or priest. And I guarantee you son, that that person has a theological perspective he got from some book or is an ignorant cherry picker that you shouldn't listen to anyway.

Do you understand?

the only hypocrite I am looking at here is you, "son"....

Thanks for letting me know that the only reason youre ignoring my point about MacArthur agreeing with me is because you simply have no real response to it.

You see, I know full well that books are just fine, just as I know that lessons from those who have studied more/longer are also fine. I am still trying to root out from you exactly why you can quote MacArthur for your own purposes at will, why you consider him credible enough when its on your own terms, but now you refuse to even admit his teaching on the matter? The only one here trying to have it both ways is you, not me. Youre completely content to admit that such teachings are essential, and yet when perhaps one of the most educated people on this topic speaks, you refuse to even acknowledge it because it goes against your own personal belief. You dont have any problem quoting him yourself, or posting a thread about one of his sermons, but only on your terms. OF course, it doesnt matter to you that I have spoken numerous times about such teachers, about studying some of them, about reading some of their books, about listening to their sermons....none of those mere facts mean anything to a guy like you--a guy thats more concerned with thinking he just put someone in his place than he is in getting to the real truth on something like salvation.

Thanks for showing us who the real "cherry-picker" is round these parts--you--with your own behavior. I guess you should include a disclaimer in future posts, so that we can all understand that a mind like MacArthur's is only considered relevant by you when he agrees with what you already believe. TEACHING is not there for the purpose of justifying what you believed before--it is there to TEACH the proper doctrine. Its a shame that youre far too interested in trying to insult me to realize what you've ignored in the process. I made a point about salvation. You tried to refute it. I posted scriptures, and you responded by posting some of your own--not one of which even remotely refuted what I said. I then bring up one of these such teachers that youre now having such a woody over, and you cannot even bring yourself to say one word about what that man--Mr. "40 hours a week for 40 years" as one of you put it--has taught concerning salvation. Check that again--not a single scripture you posted refutes my stated point....OR the fact that MacArthur teaches and believes the same as I do.

Where I am sitting, that doesnt mean you won some great victory.....especially when the best you can do is come off all prideful and try to have it both ways. I pray you find a way out of that wreck, it wont help you.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

Let's talk about Macarthur, son. I haven't responded to your points about him because you were, as is your habbit, talking out of your ass. If you do a search on Macarthur and posts by me, you come up with 8.

I posted 1 sermon by him, and in the majority of the rest of the posts I am quoting someone who has mentioned Macarthur. I ignored your rants about Macarthur because I knew your point was incoherent. Do your homework, it's been my point all along.

If you want to bust on Macarthur, talk to YZF.

Now listen here boy and I'll teach you something again. Your salvation exults yourself and God. It gives you something to boast about. You chose God. You practically saved yourself. If it wasn't for you chosing God, you'd be headed to hell. You helped God save you.

My salvation was completely the work of God and he deserves all of the glory for it. It's all about the grace that Jesus came full of, I deserved nothing.

My verses trump your verses.

and dont report to mods
amen

hang on just a sec there, chief--did I claim that you were worshipping him in every post? Nope, sure didnt....did I claim you post about him every day?? Hmmm....nope again....Did I claim that he was your favorite? You guessed it--three strikes.

What I said was that you post his points of view--WHEN THEY SUIT YOUR OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS. And then you have nothing to say at all when your beliefs dont match up. That was ALL I said. So, at that point, why even post what he says at all? Simple--because youre too busy being a hypocrite to care about the truth of the matter. So, in the spirit of you once again reading far more into my post than what I even wrote, let's see what you have had to say about, as you call him, "Johnny Mac"....

In THIS post, you call him a "great teacher". But you cant think he's so great if youre trying to back out on that position now for the sake of trying to be right....can you?

In fact, that post was in the thread you started about his election sermon--and you stood by what he said in that sermon. A funny thing though--in that exact sermon is where he said the things that you dont agree with--right about at the 27 minute mark he says that he not only believes that salvation is made available to ALL MANKIND, but he also preaches it that way because the Bible says it that way. So, which is it, bx?? Did you post that thread with the idea of "take that you haters, um, well, except for the blurb at 27 minutes, ignore that one"??

When you make your own mind up, be sure to let the rest of us know. ONe minute, he's a "great teacher" and you have his commentary, and you've stood up for his teachings in here more than once. And all of a sudden, in a sermon YOU posted as "John MacArthur answers KEY QUESTIONS on election", he teaches the same things I have said here.....but then you try to hide behind "go talk to yzf about this guy, I have barely ever posted about him".....so, you either dont think he's such a great teacher after all, you didnt even listen to his whole sermon that you posted where he says these things, or you simply refuse to face facts because youre more concerned with trying to insult me than you are about what is truth. I leave it to you to decide which one of those is the case, but I think it's pretty clear by itself.

First off, where do you see me boasting of my salvation? Oops.....wrong again, bx...if you want to discuss someone boasting of their salvation, go visit yzf, thanks.

Second, youre completely wrong in the claim that " I practically saved myself". I already pointed this out to you--the entire glory goes to God because He sent His Son to pay the price for our sin. Simply choosing to believe that HARDLY measures up to God's grace, which offers us that option to begin with. Youre going to have to pay far better attention there, "boy". There is NO glory in the choice to believe--we all can choose to believe thigns every day, but without the grace that allows us a way out, THERE IS NO GLORY DUE FOR OUR ACTION OF BELIEVING.

Once again, youre blowing my posts way out of proportion. Which is a bigger deal to you?

1--God sends Jesus to die for our sins, so that we may be saved from hell, OR--
2--that a man believes something

Now, do YOU finally understand, or are you going to continue to try to put words into my posts that were never there?

And once again, where did I EVER say that I believed anything different from that? Believing is hardly comparable, as an act, to the grace God has shown....

WRong again, son.....your verses didnt even address what I have posted. Nothing in your verses changes what I have said. Nothing in your verses changes the fact that the Bible talks about how salvation is offered to ALL MANKIND. You then tried the "predestined" route--and I pointed out scripture that explains the predestined position completely. It isnt my fault or problem that you chose to completely ignore the "foreknew" requirement there--it is yours.

Finally, how can one Bible verse "trump" another? Sorry, son, but that is pure arrogance on your part, and you really need to check that. Either ALL of the Bible is true or it isnt, and the Word itself does say that ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed. Its time for you to face facts and stop trying to use the Word in such a prideful manner, where you actually try to take credit for something by saying "my verses trump your verses". THEY ALL are truth, "boy"---get that point right to start with.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

Snore.

I think Berkhof is a great teacher too, but it doesn't mean that I agree with everything he says.

The point is this. The world gets the gospel, only those chosen will receive it and obey it. This means that although a person may feel that he has chosen God, it actually happened because God determined it. A salvation (effect) that is in part based on the decision of the receipient (cause), is not biblical.

It isnt even the fact that you dont agree with MacArthur--its the fact that you mae such an effort to not even address the fact that you dont agree. A simple " I dont believe as he does" would have been logical from the start--youve certainly never had a problem expressing such a thing before. The fact that you spent so much time pretending it wasnt even posted points to something other than "I just dont agree with him".

And I suppose you have scripture that backs this up? Because there isnt one word you have posted yet from the Bible that shows this. And, before you try to use the same examples again, let's take a look at what some of them actually mean instead of the version you have (and no doubt will again) claim to be true.

1--Ephesians 2

The answer there is twofold--first, the reason why no one can boast is because God's grace had to come first. Without God's grace providing a way to escape hell, you could believe anything you wanted to, but it still wouldnt change your destination. THAT is the gift from God that this verse speaks of. Second, this is the part that you keep trying to skip over--"through faith". In Luke 7, Jesus tells the woman that her faith has saved her. The fact that "many are called but few are chosen" all by itself proves that faith is the other part of the puzzle--otherwise, all who are called would also be chosen!

Also, "works" and "belief" are not the same thing at all. "works" would be the whole "I am a good person, I help old ladies cross the street and give to the poor, so I am going to heaven" concept. That isnt true belief in God--it is doing deeds with the thought that those deeds will earn you a spot in Heaven. That isnt belief. This is further echoed in the following scripture:

Matthew 7

Be very careful on this--read that passage and tell me where it says "We BELIEVED IN YOU". It doesnt--this is proof that the DEEDS they did are alone not sufficient. In fact, I challenged you to show me even a single example in the Bible of a person who truly believed, yet was turned away. Of course, there isnt one. In that verse, the people who will be turned away will talk all about what they DID, and nothing about their BELIEF. And thats where Jesus will turn them away. The Bible is very clear that He will NOT turn away one who is true to Him--

Job 8




2--Matthew 22

If the answer lied 100% solely in God's grace, then why would people be invited that wouldnt then be chosen? Think about the simple mechanics, if you will, behind this concept. Let's say that you are invited to a party. Does the invitation itself guarantee that you are going? Nope--you then have to answer the invitation accordingly, no? If God made this decision based solely on how He created a person whether or not they would be chosen, then there would have been no need to invite others that He created not to be chosen. This shows that chosen vs. not chosen was not a part of the specific creation of a specific person--if a man was created for the purpose of entering heaven, then dont you think God would know enough not to waste His time and efforts with invitations that could never possibly be used?

3--Romans 8

You posted this one yourself, I believe. You skipped completely over the "foreknew" part--and that is not how to interpret the Bible, by skipping over some of God's own words. Foreknew means that before we make a chocie, God knows what that choice will be. It doesnt mean that we were created specifically to go to heaven while someone else was created specifically to go to hell. Again, if God created us this way, there would have been no reason whatsoever to invite many that could not come no matter what. The whole predestined idea relies FIRST on that foreknowledge, according to this scripture, and youre ingoring that very important part for whatever reason. Remember, "If it were not true I would not have told you so...", right? Hey, not my words, but from the Word.

This goes one step further, in Romans 11--

That is quite an important part of the puzzle for you to be overlooking, bx....

4--John 4

You posted this one too--but you forgot to address the next part of what Jesus was saying, and that is found in John 6:

So, in the end, while one must go to Jesus to get to the Father, Jesus only chooses what His Father has willed. That ties in with "foreknew" completely.

Also, you have said that the whole world is not invited--that salvation is not offered to all. These verses show very clearly that you are mistaken:

Colossians 1:23

Psalm 19:4

Mark 16:14-16

Not to mention the already-posted "to all mankind" verse from before....

Once more, show me a verse that goes against what I am saying. Show me the Word proving this wrong. Because not one thing you have posted up to this point refutes even a single point I am making.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

Tell you what--we can boil this down to two questions right now, real simply.

1--Do you believe that the Bible is the true Word of God, as in "all scripture is God-breathed" and that it is all truth?

2--Do you think that God would speak something that wasnt truth?

Your answers, combined with one scripture, will show that man plays a role. Let me know your answers, and I will point out the verse.

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

hmmm.....so lemme get this straight.....

wow, that answers everything perfectly!!!

In other words, for the really slow people here among us, ignore means ignore. When I said that those on ignore need not respond to me, I meant it. I put yzf on ignore because he always has some excuse why he's "always right". I dont rely on excuses--and no real christian would either. I have posted scripture after scripture, because that is where the only truth is.

Now, those of you that matter in this discussion(read, not yzf), feel free to comment. I thought I made that abundantly clear on the first page. Then again, the "M1 tank" isnt known for comprehending the obvious anyways...

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

wow, some people are truly just plain clueless.....I pray that someone puts yzf back in his straight-jacket soon...

__________________
"some people are like slinky,
their not realy good for much.
but you cant help but smile
when you see one tumbling down the stairs"

I'm tired of the encyclopedic responses. The gift in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the faith, not the grace. If grace is the gift, it's redundant and the verse looses meaning. Look at the verse again.