for those who claimed that salvation was never made available to all.....explain...

skydivr7673 · #61 04-18-2009, 11:41 PM

wow, what a shocker.....

some people, even in their 40's, cannot understand what it means when they are being ignored.

Then again, when that same "grown man" fires off several emails to cry about being banned from a forum that he has repeatedly told us all he "couldnt care less about", I dont tend to expect much in the way of intelligence from that person anyways.

YZF-R1 · #62 04-18-2009, 11:51 PM

stop whining, jonnie....you're consistently wrong, and you're wrong on this topic as well

bx7 · #63 04-20-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skydivr7673

3--the Bible states that salvation is offered to "all mankind".

This statement is not consistent with the reality that we live in unless every person on the planet is given the gospel message at least once in their lifetime. 2Peter does not support this when looked at in context. I believe the only other verse used to support it is from Timothy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skydivr7673

The Bible states that God "foreknew those whom He predestined", not that He made all the choices for us, but that He FOREKNEW what WE would choose.

As I have said before, this raises human sovereignty over God. God chose you because you chose him first. So your choice becomes more important then God's. Also, it suggests that at some point God had to go and investigate your life to see what you would do, as though he did not know. He wasn't sure so he waited until he could observe what you would do and then went back to the beginning to predestine you. Omniscience goes out the window, it cannot be explained away.

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Originally Posted by skydivr7673

The Bible shows Paul telling fellow Christians to "make their election sure"--something that could not possibly have any meaning if free will was not involved.

I go back to context here. Also, it does not negate God electing people, the point is to check one's self, which is not indicating that one generates his own election. Where's the instruction to get saved again? On top of all of this, really please think about it and you will cross over to me an YZF's side. If you can lose your salvation, then your baptism must also become invalid. Where are the instructions to get re-baptized? They do not exist.

skydivr7673 · #64 04-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bx7

This statement is not consistent with the reality that we live in unless every person on the planet is given the gospel message at least once in their lifetime. 2Peter does not support this when looked at in context. I believe the only other verse used to support it is from Timothy.

It isnt about "the reality we live in". Its about the Bible. And the Bible states clear as day that salvation is made available to all mankind. I took nothing out of context, and since there is only one "all mankind" in existence, you can hardly claim I was misrepresenting the context. "All mankind" does not leave room for interpretation--it is quite clear all by itself, no?

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As I have said before, this raises human sovereignty over God. God chose you because you chose him first. So your choice becomes more important then God's. Also, it suggests that at some point God had to go and investigate your life to see what you would do, as though he did not know. He wasn't sure so he waited until he could observe what you would do and then went back to the beginning to predestine you. Omniscience goes out the window, it cannot be explained away.

I already addressed that and once again you are completely misinterpreting what I have said. My point of view NEVER placed man above God, as already explained. Why do you insist on not paying attention to the explanations you receive in response to what you say? There's no valid point in continuing to argue something once I prove that youre barking up the wrong tree about my meaning. You claim it takes God's choice and lessens it. You claim it makes man's choice first. I already showed you how God's Grace HAD to come first, because without it we would never have been offered ANYTHING other than death. Why ignore that? I thought you wanted to have a real discussion about this.....was I wrong on that?

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I go back to context here.

Thats fine, but I have not taken anything out of its context in the first place, so go back to context all you like. It still doesnt change the fact of what the Bible says.

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Also, it does not negate God electing people, the point is to check one's self, which is not indicating that one generates his own election.

Youre still assuming that I claimed that a man CAN generate his own election. Which, for the record, I have never once said. So why are you still making this incorrect assumption?

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Where's the instruction to get saved again?

What? What are you talking about, "get saved again"? When did I ever say that you could be saved more than once? Oh, wait, I didnt....this is yet one more incorrect assumption on your part.

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On top of all of this, really please think about it and you will cross over to me an YZF's side.

Thats rather funny....for one thing, YZF doesnt even know what "side" he is on. One minute, he treats MacArthur like a God on earth....and the next, he cannot even acknowledge the fact that MacArthur teaches exactly what I am saying here. For another thing, YZF has changed his mind so many times on this very topic it isnt funny....Not exactly what you'd expect from the guy who claims he's "always right".....

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If you can lose your salvation, then your baptism must also become invalid. Where are the instructions to get re-baptized? They do not exist.

I didnt say you can lose your salvation, chief. I merely showed you what scripture said. And what I posted doesnt in any way say that you can lose salvation.

I maintain what I have been telling you all along--that two things must happen in order for one to be saved.

1--God, by His grace, made salvation available--this means that man's choice is NEVER first, I NEVER claimed it was first, and I NEVER claimed that God's grace didnt come first. His grace is without doubt the larger part of the puzzle and I have even said that before....can ya hear me now? Like I already told you, man could believe whatever he wanted to--but without the grace of God making this available to us, nothing would happen. THAT is why God's position as sovereign to us NEVER CHANGES under the beliefs I am telling you. Do me a favor and stop pretending I said otherwise already.

2--a man must believe and surrender himself to Jesus, the Lord and Savior.

Tofuball · #65 04-21-2009, 08:14 AM

Instructions to be re=baptized? Instructions to be saved again? Make me think of the verses in Hebrews 6:

1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

YZF-R1 · #66 04-28-2009, 09:19 PM

this thread utterly fails...the OP has zero spiritual discernment

skydivr7673 · #67 05-01-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tofuball

Instructions to be re=baptized? Instructions to be saved again? Make me think of the verses in Hebrews 6:

1 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Which would be the reason why I never voiced such a sentiment in here...because I dont believe in the need to be "saved again".

Then again, the thick-headed among us still deny what I am saying.....even when the preachers they listen to the most agree with me. It's already been shown that MacArthur teaches what I am saying....here's where none other than Billy Graham agrees with me as well:

http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_Arti...?ArticleID=421

Remember when I said that two things had to happen, in order, for salvation to be found? Here's what Billy Graham says on the matter:

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First, all are sinners and stand under the judgment of God. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23, NIV). We might believe that we are good enough to win God's favor or that we can perform certain religious acts to counterbalance our bad deeds. But the Bible states that we are all condemned, for "there is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10, NIV).

Second, we need to understand what Christ has done to make our salvation possible. God loves us, and Christ came to make forgiveness and salvation possible. What did He do? He died on the cross as the complete sacrifice for our sins. He took upon Himself the judgment that we deserve.

Third, we need to respond to God's work. God in His grace offers us the gift of eternal life. But like any gift, it becomes ours only when we take it.

Remember when I said that salvation was offered to ALL mankind? Here is Billy Graham's statement of faith from his website:

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

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The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association believes:

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
• In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
• That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross. • That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.
• In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.
• We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.
• In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

Billy Graham believes, and just told you, that Jesus took on ALL OUR SINS, not only the sins of a select few. He also just told you that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE need to come to the knowledge of Christ--which couldnt possibly be the case if it wasnt made available to all men in the first place.

http://www.billygraham.org/DMag_Arti...?ArticleID=210

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Pillar #1
God Cannot Lie!
First, assurance is based on the absolute trustworthiness of Scripture. Throughout the New Testament, we read God's promises to save all who will believe upon His Son. The Bible says, "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."(1) This is a promise! All who have committed their lives to Jesus Christ may have the firm confidence of salvation based upon the infallibility of God's Word.

Jesus said, "The one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."(2) If you come to Jesus with genuine repentance and faith, He promises that He will save you. We can know Jesus has received us because, quite simply, He said so! When the Bible speaks, God speaks. And what God said, He will surely do. He will save all who call upon Jesus Christ. You have His word on it.

NOT "a select few of those who believe". NOT "only this group over here, because He likes their music better....". Billy Graham is telling you that ALL who call upon the Lord with a genuine heart WILL BE SAVED. At any other time, some of you tout Graham like he's practically the second coming all by himself.....five bucks says you will do your level best to discredit this evidence that you are simply wrong about salvation. Either that or you wont even discuss it, exactly the same as what took place with MacArthur's words.

That's two of the most well-known, the most educated, the most trusted speakers on the Lord in this country, that you guys yourselves have used many times to bolster your own arguments. Now, are they lying now, simply because you think you are "always right"?

YZF-R1 · #68 05-01-2009, 12:19 PM

No, jonnie, John MacArthur does NOT agree with your humanistic viewpoint, because MacArthur believes solely in Divine Election ("God is always previous"), while you have consistently (for several years now), stated that human free will plays a role in salvation. Again, this thread fails.

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Billy Graham is telling you that ALL who call upon the Lord with a genuine heart WILL BE SAVED.

And, once again, "no one can come to Me unless the Father draws him". Stop cherry picking! You must consider the whole counsel of God on this issue, and you have proven to be inept.

YZF-R1 · #69 05-01-2009, 12:24 PM

Again, the best discussion of this topic I've ever read. It's far more complex than one liners frrom internet hacks, and cannot be fully understood by anyone, least of all those outside the faith.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL..._Wills_in_God/

YZF-R1 · #70 05-01-2009, 12:28 PM

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GTYW02.htm

Quote:

Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical?

John MacArthur

Among the most hotly contested and persistent debates in the history of the confessing church, the doctrine of election is perhaps the greatest of all. The question goes like this: Does God choose sinners to be saved and then provide for their salvation? Or, Does God provide the way of salvation that sinners must choose for themselves?

Where’s the evidence?

This question of choice is called “election” because of the Greek word for those who are chosen—the Bible calls them eklektos. There are many such uses in the Bible (cf. Col. 3:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Tit. 1:1; 2 John 1), but one of my favorites is in Romans 8:33: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?” The answer is, “no one,” but why? Is it because I chose God, or is it because God chose me?

One passage that is critical to the discussion is in the opening chapter of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. Immediately after his customary greeting, Paul launches in Ephesians 1:3-14 with a great song of praise. It’s only one sentence—but, with 200 words in the Greek, it may be the longest single sentence in religious literature.

Paul touches on all the great biblical themes in that hyper-complex sentence—sanctification, adoption, redemption, and glorification—and all of them rest on one foundational doctrine, the doctrine of election. The most superlative spiritual blessings stand on Ephesians 1:4—“He chose us [elected us] in Him before the foundation of the world.”

So the doctrine of election is biblical, but what does that passage really teach? I want to help you get a better grasp of that by pointing out what Paul teaches about election. If you are a believer, you can equip yourself for your next conversation on this topic. But more important, as one of His elect you can rejoice in the astonishing kindness God showed you before the world began.

What does it mean?

Paul’s song is essentially his reflection on the amazing truth that God “blessed us with every spiritual blessing … in Christ” (v. 3). And how did He bless us? “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4).

God didn’t draw straws; He didn’t look down the corridor of time to see who would choose Him before He decided. Rather, by His sovereign will He chose who would be in the Body of Christ. The construction of the Greek verb for “chose” indicates God chose us for Himself. That means God acted totally independent of any outside influence. He made His choice totally apart from human will and purely on the basis of His sovereignty.

Jesus said to His disciples, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). And in the same Gospel, John wrote, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (1:12-13, italics mine). And Paul said, “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13).

Those statements defining God’s sovereign choice of believers are not in the Bible to cause controversy, as if God’s election means sinners don’t make decisions. Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith. Jesus said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).

Admittedly the two concepts don’t seem to go together. However, both are true separately, and we must accept them both by faith. You may not understand it, but rest assured—it’s fully reconciled in the mind of God.

You must understand that your faith and salvation rest entirely on God’s election (cf. Acts 13:48). And yet the day you came to Jesus Christ, you did so because of an internal desire—you did nothing against your will. But even that desire is God-given—He supplies the necessary faith so we can believe (Eph. 2:8).

Think about it—if your salvation depends on you, then praise to God is ridiculous. But, in truth, your praise to God is completely appropriate, because in forming the Body before the world began, He chose you by His sovereign decree apart from any of your works. The doctrine of election demonstrates God being God, exercising divine prerogatives. For that we must praise Him.

“But that’s not fair!”

Some are shocked to find that God didn’t choose everyone to salvation. Jesus said, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39, italics mine). God the Father chose certain individuals to form a Body as a gift to Jesus Christ. Every believer is part of that love gift to Christ—a gift of the Father’s love to His Son.

To those who say that is unjust, Paul answers: “What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion’” (Rom. 9:14-15).

So why does God still find fault in unrepentant sinners when He didn’t choose them? Doesn’t this deny human responsibility? Is it fair for God to still hold them accountable?

Paul answers all such questions with a rebuke—“who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, ‘Why did you make me like this,’ will it?” (v. 20). Does the clay jump up and ask the potter why it looks the way it does? Not at all.

Some believe that is terribly cold and calculating. But that is only one side of God’s sovereign election. Paul continues in the next chapter by saying, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved … for ‘whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved’” (10:9, 13).

How these two sides of God’s truth—His sovereignty in choosing us (Rom. 9) and our responsibility to confess and believe (Rom. 10)—reconcile is impossible for us to understand fully. But Scripture declares both perspectives of salvation to be true (John 1:12-13). It’s our duty to acknowledge both and joyfully accept them by faith.

skydivr7673 · #71 05-01-2009, 12:48 PM

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This message is hidden because YZF-R1 is on your ignore list.

Now, if someone worth paying attention to wishes to discuss, I would be happy to do so.

YZF-R1 · #72 05-01-2009, 01:09 PM

Your lame duck points have been trounced by me so many times now all you can do is a) the usual do-loop, b) tangential rabbit trails, or c) avoidance. Hopefully, bx. is done with your circus act. Once again, jonnie, you're wrong, but in your pride, you can't admit it.

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grace12 · #74 03-16-2010, 10:50 PM

lol good one sky

Freewilly · #75 04-17-2010, 12:52 PM

wow what a thread Lol I am lost its too much to read but guessing what its about I would say that of course salvation is available to all why the hell would Jesus die on the cross for just a few peeps. And we are given a choice because he wants a relationship with us not control over us even though he could but he is love not a dictator

ok over and out just my opinion and this is too heavy a topic for me I aint good at explaining my feelings Lol.